Look at Cousins when he needlessly gives away possession 3-4 times a game and try telling me Poyet would makes the same errors. Whether Poyet has progressed or declined is a separate issue, but for me the Poyet we saw last season is a notch or two above Cousins in technique alone and pretty much any other midfielder we've produced since Parker.
Of course many here don't want to admit that, but then again the MOTM stats from last year show exactly how good he was. The whole "but he didn't have much competition" argument doesn't rub for me - he was just quality in every game he played.
Cousins and Poyet have different games/attributes which makes them difficult to compare. Both are young and are at points in their career where they should be learning and improving. This season, Cousins has had the conditions to do that to a greater extent than Poyet. Of course Poyet was within his rights to leave, but there are two seperate issues here that shouldn't be confused. The first is about loyalty, the second is about becoming a better player. For me, i'll focus on the second. Given Poyet's age and last season being his breakthrough season. If you were charting his career, you would have told him to do another season with us. Championship footbalis a good level to learn. Had he continued this season in the same style as last, he would have clubs queueing up for him and a full season of competive experience under his belt. Going for a big fee, also makes you more likely to get game time, wherever you go.
He has enough talent to further his career, but the short term buck, or hunger for the big time is dangerous. He was in the right place to establish himself last year and passed up a fantastic opportunity. Yes, he is a bit richer, but it may cost him money later in his career. He certainly needs a big season next season. League one is littered with talents who stepped up too quickly and got lost in the big pond.
Surprised no one has mentioned Sterling yet. He is on 35k a week currently Liverpool have offered 100k, but he wants 150k a week. Poyet at least didn't hold us to ransom.
I witnessed poyet give the ball away on numerous occasions last season, and in very dangerous positions on the pitch, it's part and parcel of the game and part of their education, it never detracted from the good he done as I don't think it gave away a goal at the time
I lost count of the amount of passes Cousins made directly to the opposition on Saturday. Poyet so rarely gave possession away, that was his prime strength, he just didn't lose the ball. He pretty much single handedly kept us up last season - there was no way we would have survived without him in the team.
I witnessed poyet give the ball away on numerous occasions last season, and in very dangerous positions on the pitch, it's part and parcel of the game and part of their education, it never detracted from the good he done as I don't think it gave away a goal at the time
I lost count of the amount of passes Cousins made directly to the opposition on Saturday. Poyet so rarely gave possession away, that was his prime strength, he just didn't lose the ball. He pretty much single handedly kept us up last season - there was no way we would have survived without him in the team.
Poyet did not give the ball away too much, that's for sure. But the vast majority of his passes were either sideways or backwards (Bob Peeters would have liked him.) It's easy to get exceptional accurate pass stats doing that - certainly in the Championship but probably less so in the PL.
To borrow a phrase from Eric Cantona, Poyet gets by because he always gives 100 per cent, but he will never be anything more than a water carrier.
The thing is, I'm not sure that many decent teams actually want a deep-lying midfield water carrier in their team any more. They expect players to be creative too - much like Coquelin is proving to be for Arsenal. I'm beginning to think that players in the mould of Didier Deschamps, Javier Mascherano (who now plays in defence) and Claude Makélélé are no longer a viable option for the top teams. Even the mediocre West Ham have Song who has many more attacking attributes than Poyet.
I don't think Poyet will make it big time - he doesn't have the pace. (I said the same about Jenkinson not being good enough for Arsenal and a lot of people disagreed....)
Poyet's best bet might be to do a Mascherano and re-invent himself as a defender.
People see what they want to see with players the player scores show that, poyet definitely gave the ball away very loosely under very little pressure,
NLA you are dismissing the ratings of hundreds of supporters because people "see what they want to see", yet are suggesting that cousins is better than poyet was this time a year ago when - i believe i am correct in saying? - you haven't been attending games this season?! It completely undermines any comments you make which are clearly completely unfounded, so your contributions are not valid or worthwhile. Poyet dominated match after match last season, was our standout player in almost every game he played and is probably the highest rating player we've ever even had overall since the stats began.
Cafcfan - maybe team's don't want a water carrier but that's all Cousins is ever going to be. Personally I think Poyet has more to backwards and sideways and showed that on occasions last season - but bear in mind he was restricted with what he could do both by the team and players around him and by the dire pitches he was playing on. He was playing in a poor side incapable of getting in or controlling games, especially after we lost Kermogant who was our main outlet. His ability to win back possession and then be comfortable offering for the ball (rather than hiding away) and retaining possession was crucial to actually give us a bit of a foothold in games last season which we hadn't previously been able to command.
I don't know what he will go on and do and obviously he's not progressing at the minute - but as far as I'm concerned he didn't really show any standout negative sides to his game last season which suggest he can't go on to international level.
I witnessed poyet give the ball away on numerous occasions last season, and in very dangerous positions on the pitch, it's part and parcel of the game and part of their education, it never detracted from the good he done as I don't think it gave away a goal at the time
I lost count of the amount of passes Cousins made directly to the opposition on Saturday. Poyet so rarely gave possession away, that was his prime strength, he just didn't lose the ball. He pretty much single handedly kept us up last season - there was no way we would have survived without him in the team.
Poyet did not give the ball away too much, that's for sure. But the vast majority of his passes were either sideways or backwards (Bob Peeters would have liked him.) It's easy to get exceptional accurate pass stats doing that - certainly in the Championship but probably less so in the PL.
To borrow a phrase from Eric Cantona, Poyet gets by because he always gives 100 per cent, but he will never be anything more than a water carrier.
The thing is, I'm not sure that many decent teams actually want a deep-lying midfield water carrier in their team any more. They expect players to be creative too - much like Coquelin is proving to be for Arsenal. I'm beginning to think that players in the mould of Didier Deschamps, Javier Mascherano (who now plays in defence) and Claude Makélélé are no longer a viable option for the top teams. Even the mediocre West Ham have Song who has many more attacking attributes than Poyet.
I don't think Poyet will make it big time - he doesn't have the pace. (I said the same about Jenkinson not being good enough for Arsenal and a lot of people disagreed....)
Poyet's best bet might be to do a Mascherano and re-invent himself as a defender.
disappointed it wasn't the seagulls following the trawler quote so we could all agree it was funny seeing a palace fan being kicked.
People see what they want to see with players the player scores show that, poyet definitely gave the ball away very loosely under very little pressure,
You bet. Fewer times than Jordan, but often in deeper and hence more dangerous situations.
That said, I do feel that Jordan's technique limitations will hold him back, whereas Poyet could still progress with the right coaching and experience . But he ain't getting the latter right now. ..
Let us not overstate Poyet's abilities. He is a good Championship midfielder with good positioning, tackling abilities. He is not a game changer, with a defence splitting pass or a goal or three. He has done nothing in the Premiership yet,so I will reserve judgement on his abilities until he has a season or two playing regularly in West Hams first team.
Much more likely to get a chance playing for Uruguay at senior level then england. Decent decision for his international career I spose. Personally don't think he will ever be good enough for England.
Everyone's always talking about this golden era when footballers wouldn't move clubs for a higher wage... When was this exactly?
No one has talked about a golden age in around 100 posts on this thread though Chunes, and I see that others have answered your question anyway...
A lot of references to the idea that footballers aren't loyal anymore. On this thread and many like it. Which implies a golden age when they were loyal.
I'm told they were, more than 52 years ago. But as there was a wage cap, it's actually not possible to say that players didn't move clubs for more money, because they weren't offered any. You can't put it down to club loyalty when there was nothing to test that loyalty.
I was pedantic, you exaggerated - lets leave it at that, however, I think Darren Bent could be an example of one who stayed loyal. If he had not insisted that he was prepared to stay and help the fight to return to the top flight, we would never have got the transfer fee that Spurs paid for him.
PS it's not come across as I intended, I was saying that people when watching football see what they want to see, and interpret it in the way that suits, personally I have always thought JC was and will be a better player than DP, I thought poyet was quality oozed a degree of technical ability that most don't, yet I thought JC would be the better more rounded player I said it at the beginning of seeing them both my posts will back that up
I am in no way suggesting poyet is shit or a poor player, I just honestly believe that some failed to see the mistakes poyet made or have forgotten that he also made the rookie mistakes JC does but imo he made them in far more dangerous positions as he sat deeper
Poyets influence on the outcome of games was nowhere near as positive as JC, due to the spaces they played in,
Much more likely to get a chance playing for Uruguay at senior level then england. Decent decision for his international career I spose. Personally don't think he will ever be good enough for England.
It's funny, because part of me agrees with what you are saying. But the other part wonders why he wouldn't be good enough for England but be good enough for Uraguay who are better than us!
Much more likely to get a chance playing for Uruguay at senior level then england. Decent decision for his international career I spose. Personally don't think he will ever be good enough for England.
NLA you are dismissing the ratings of hundreds of supporters because people "see what they want to see", yet are suggesting that cousins is better than poyet was this time a year ago when - i believe i am correct in saying? - you haven't been attending games this season?! It completely undermines any comments you make which are clearly completely unfounded, so your contributions are not valid or worthwhile. Poyet dominated match after match last season, was our standout player in almost every game he played and is probably the highest rating player we've ever even had overall since the stats began.
Cafcfan - maybe team's don't want a water carrier but that's all Cousins is ever going to be. Personally I think Poyet has more to backwards and sideways and showed that on occasions last season - but bear in mind he was restricted with what he could do both by the team and players around him and by the dire pitches he was playing on. He was playing in a poor side incapable of getting in or controlling games, especially after we lost Kermogant who was our main outlet. His ability to win back possession and then be comfortable offering for the ball (rather than hiding away) and retaining possession was crucial to actually give us a bit of a foothold in games last season which we hadn't previously been able to command.
I don't know what he will go on and do and obviously he's not progressing at the minute - but as far as I'm concerned he didn't really show any standout negative sides to his game last season which suggest he can't go on to international level.
Cousins is more than a water carrier. he has an eye for goal and has scored 2 or 3 goals this season alone when we have often been indifferent. He is more than capable of contributing 5 goals a season or so from midfield as he develops particularly if he also has better players around him.
I don't think Uruguay are better than England. Not many Urguayan players I would swap for English apart from Suarez and Godin at the last world cup, they're captain couldn't even get in the West Brom side. We definitely should have won and had chances too. Probably edge it on players but with Uruguay's hunger and desire the key factor for them progressing in the last two world cups further than us. I think the future of English international football is very bright.
Also I predict we will do very well next year in France, can't see Uruguay doing well at all...
I don't think Uruguay are better than England. Not many Urguayan players I would swap for English apart from Suarez and Godin at the last world cup, they're captain couldn't even get in the West Brom side. We definitely should have won and had chances too. Probably edge it on players but with Uruguay's hunger and desire the key factor for them progressing in the last two world cups further than us. I think the future of English international football is very bright.
Also I predict we will do very well next year in France, can't see Uruguay doing well at all...
Especially not in the Euros. I bet they don't even qualify ;-)
The water carrier remarks exactly prove my point, there was a game last season where I honestly thought Jordan showed within that performance that he could be the best midfielder we have produced, I can't remember the team it was against but I put it on here and we had a healthy debate about who was better why and what age
We all see players strengths and weaknesses differently and as such see what we want to see
I witnessed poyet give the ball away on numerous occasions last season, and in very dangerous positions on the pitch, it's part and parcel of the game and part of their education, it never detracted from the good he done as I don't think it gave away a goal at the time
I lost count of the amount of passes Cousins made directly to the opposition on Saturday. Poyet so rarely gave possession away, that was his prime strength, he just didn't lose the ball. He pretty much single handedly kept us up last season - there was no way we would have survived without him in the team.
Poyet did not give the ball away too much, that's for sure. But the vast majority of his passes were either sideways or backwards (Bob Peeters would have liked him.) It's easy to get exceptional accurate pass stats doing that - certainly in the Championship but probably less so in the PL.
To borrow a phrase from Eric Cantona, Poyet gets by because he always gives 100 per cent, but he will never be anything more than a water carrier.
The thing is, I'm not sure that many decent teams actually want a deep-lying midfield water carrier in their team any more. They expect players to be creative too - much like Coquelin is proving to be for Arsenal. I'm beginning to think that players in the mould of Didier Deschamps, Javier Mascherano (who now plays in defence) and Claude Makélélé are no longer a viable option for the top teams. Even the mediocre West Ham have Song who has many more attacking attributes than Poyet.
I don't think Poyet will make it big time - he doesn't have the pace. (I said the same about Jenkinson not being good enough for Arsenal and a lot of people disagreed....)
Poyet's best bet might be to do a Mascherano and re-invent himself as a defender.
I don't think that's fair. In fact, it's just inaccurate. A lot of people remember Diego for the slower, calmer part of his game, which is the main part but he's also capable of incisive and deadly passes. He's far more than a water carrier. For instance, look at the pass he plays for our third against Yeovil; it's like a pass Yann would have played. Without looking he knows exactly where to put the ball and carve Yeovil open. That's not the action of a water carrier.
These passes happened a lot in games. Diego liked to stay behind the play but he'd get wide when he needed to and saw the pass. His tackle on Onuoha against QPR which led to the goal was only a couple of yards from the D and it was an aggressive, crunching challenge from a player determined to create a goal. One of the reasons Diego was picked out by Powell and then by West Ham was due to his ability to be creative as well as look after the ball. If Diego could be compared favourably with anyone it would be Michael Carrick, and Utd have only lost one of the games he's played in due to the same qualities. Coquelin filled a very similar role that Diego had for us but is four years older and has heaps more experience at a higher level so it's a bit daft so say players like Coquelin are rendering players like Poyet obsolete
The water carrier remarks exactly prove my point, there was a game last season where I honestly thought Jordan showed within that performance that he could be the best midfielder we have produced, I can't remember the team it was against but I put it on here and we had a healthy debate about who was better why and what age
We all see players strengths and weaknesses differently and as such see what we want to see
Forest at Home? when he had just broke through and played in his best position of CM. Personally thought Diego Poyet was class last season and really played a big part in us staying up but I've said before and I'll say it again, with Diego Poyet came on the scene, a lot of people forgot Jordon putting in similar performances when he first broke through before moving out right for the good of the team. Now Jordon has moved back in the middle it's coinsided with the his and our best form.
I witnessed poyet give the ball away on numerous occasions last season, and in very dangerous positions on the pitch, it's part and parcel of the game and part of their education, it never detracted from the good he done as I don't think it gave away a goal at the time
I lost count of the amount of passes Cousins made directly to the opposition on Saturday. Poyet so rarely gave possession away, that was his prime strength, he just didn't lose the ball. He pretty much single handedly kept us up last season - there was no way we would have survived without him in the team.
Poyet did not give the ball away too much, that's for sure. But the vast majority of his passes were either sideways or backwards (Bob Peeters would have liked him.) It's easy to get exceptional accurate pass stats doing that - certainly in the Championship but probably less so in the PL.
To borrow a phrase from Eric Cantona, Poyet gets by because he always gives 100 per cent, but he will never be anything more than a water carrier.
The thing is, I'm not sure that many decent teams actually want a deep-lying midfield water carrier in their team any more. They expect players to be creative too - much like Coquelin is proving to be for Arsenal. I'm beginning to think that players in the mould of Didier Deschamps, Javier Mascherano (who now plays in defence) and Claude Makélélé are no longer a viable option for the top teams. Even the mediocre West Ham have Song who has many more attacking attributes than Poyet.
I don't think Poyet will make it big time - he doesn't have the pace. (I said the same about Jenkinson not being good enough for Arsenal and a lot of people disagreed....)
Poyet's best bet might be to do a Mascherano and re-invent himself as a defender.
I don't think that's fair. In fact, it's just inaccurate. A lot of people remember Diego for the slower, calmer part of his game, which is the main part but he's also capable of incisive and deadly passes. He's far more than a water carrier. For instance, look at the pass he plays for our third against Yeovil; it's like a pass Yann would have played. Without looking he knows exactly where to put the ball and carve Yeovil open. That's not the action of a water carrier.
These passes happened a lot in games. Diego liked to stay behind the play but he'd get wide when he needed to and saw the pass. His tackle on Onuoha against QPR which led to the goal was only a couple of yards from the D and it was an aggressive, crunching challenge from a player determined to create a goal. One of the reasons Diego was picked out by Powell and then by West Ham was due to his ability to be creative as well as look after the ball. If Diego could be compared favourably with anyone it would be Michael Carrick, and Utd have only lost one of the games he's played in due to the same qualities. Coquelin filled a very similar role that Diego had for us but is four years older and has heaps more experience at a higher level so it's a bit daft so say players like Coquelin are rendering players like Poyet obsolete
It's interesting to see in that same clip, his failed bit of last ditch defending which lead to a goal. I would suggest you have a look at Cousins goal clips and compare them with Poyet's. Except you can't because there aren't any for Poyet: that's why he's a water carrier.
So, we'll have to agree to disagree. Time will tell who is correct. BTW, the odds are in your favour because my ability at picking a player has a chequered history. (I thought Cristiano Ronaldo would get found out by PL defenders after a few games....)
He might have played earlier if the Spiv bros weren't skint and not able to pay the first team appearance money set out in his contract. Hence why he played as soon as RD arrived.
Are you sure about this?
yep
Fair enough. I spoke to him once though for quite a while as my ex-girlfriend was pals with his girlfriend he said that was bollocks.
I witnessed poyet give the ball away on numerous occasions last season, and in very dangerous positions on the pitch, it's part and parcel of the game and part of their education, it never detracted from the good he done as I don't think it gave away a goal at the time
I lost count of the amount of passes Cousins made directly to the opposition on Saturday. Poyet so rarely gave possession away, that was his prime strength, he just didn't lose the ball. He pretty much single handedly kept us up last season - there was no way we would have survived without him in the team.
Poyet did not give the ball away too much, that's for sure. But the vast majority of his passes were either sideways or backwards (Bob Peeters would have liked him.) It's easy to get exceptional accurate pass stats doing that - certainly in the Championship but probably less so in the PL.
To borrow a phrase from Eric Cantona, Poyet gets by because he always gives 100 per cent, but he will never be anything more than a water carrier.
The thing is, I'm not sure that many decent teams actually want a deep-lying midfield water carrier in their team any more. They expect players to be creative too - much like Coquelin is proving to be for Arsenal. I'm beginning to think that players in the mould of Didier Deschamps, Javier Mascherano (who now plays in defence) and Claude Makélélé are no longer a viable option for the top teams. Even the mediocre West Ham have Song who has many more attacking attributes than Poyet.
I don't think Poyet will make it big time - he doesn't have the pace. (I said the same about Jenkinson not being good enough for Arsenal and a lot of people disagreed....)
Poyet's best bet might be to do a Mascherano and re-invent himself as a defender.
I don't think that's fair. In fact, it's just inaccurate. A lot of people remember Diego for the slower, calmer part of his game, which is the main part but he's also capable of incisive and deadly passes. He's far more than a water carrier. For instance, look at the pass he plays for our third against Yeovil; it's like a pass Yann would have played. Without looking he knows exactly where to put the ball and carve Yeovil open. That's not the action of a water carrier.
These passes happened a lot in games. Diego liked to stay behind the play but he'd get wide when he needed to and saw the pass. His tackle on Onuoha against QPR which led to the goal was only a couple of yards from the D and it was an aggressive, crunching challenge from a player determined to create a goal. One of the reasons Diego was picked out by Powell and then by West Ham was due to his ability to be creative as well as look after the ball. If Diego could be compared favourably with anyone it would be Michael Carrick, and Utd have only lost one of the games he's played in due to the same qualities. Coquelin filled a very similar role that Diego had for us but is four years older and has heaps more experience at a higher level so it's a bit daft so say players like Coquelin are rendering players like Poyet obsolete
It's interesting to see in that same clip, his failed bit of last ditch defending which lead to a goal. I would suggest you have a look at Cousins goal clips and compare them with Poyet's. Except you can't because there aren't any for Poyet: that's why he's a water carrier.
So, we'll have to agree to disagree. Time will tell who is correct. BTW, the odds are in your favour because my ability at picking a player has a chequered history. (I thought Cristiano Ronaldo would get found out by PL defenders after a few games....)
So you're saying a midfielder who doesn't score is designated a water carrier? All of them? Francis Coquelin who is your example of a creative deep-lying midfielder also has exactly zero goals. Alex Song has 7 in 246 appearances and zero for the international team. This doesn't make any sense.
Wait till Cousins and Poyet are our midfield pair next season. Will compliment each other very well.
It wont happen.
Too defensive.
No more defensive than Cousins and Buyens? That's working well with good attacking players out wide and up front.
100% more defensive then cousins and buyens imo.
Depends how you see Cousins and Buyens, as Poyet would clearly be the more defensive player. Cousins to me is best playing box to box rather than sitting back, he has the pace, energy and fitness to get up and down the pitch. Buyens aside from Saturday hasn't often got in and around the box, he's usually been the one in the deeper role.
Wait till Cousins and Poyet are our midfield pair next season. Will compliment each other very well.
It wont happen.
Too defensive.
Think it would work bloody well! Poyet holding and cousins going box to box! With att as cling wingers and either two up from or a CAM works very well! Also having those two there would allow the fullbacks to get forward and overlap!
I've been beating this drum for a while... If you look at the top teams at the world cup or in the prem and other top leagues they play a 4231 with one holding and one going box to box! All I'm doing is moving the CAM up top!
Comments
He has enough talent to further his career, but the short term buck, or hunger for the big time is dangerous. He was in the right place to establish himself last year and passed up a fantastic opportunity. Yes, he is a bit richer, but it may cost him money later in his career. He certainly needs a big season next season. League one is littered with talents who stepped up too quickly and got lost in the big pond.
To borrow a phrase from Eric Cantona, Poyet gets by because he always gives 100 per cent, but he will never be anything more than a water carrier.
The thing is, I'm not sure that many decent teams actually want a deep-lying midfield water carrier in their team any more. They expect players to be creative too - much like Coquelin is proving to be for Arsenal. I'm beginning to think that players in the mould of Didier Deschamps, Javier Mascherano (who now plays in defence) and Claude Makélélé are no longer a viable option for the top teams. Even the mediocre West Ham have Song who has many more attacking attributes than Poyet.
I don't think Poyet will make it big time - he doesn't have the pace. (I said the same about Jenkinson not being good enough for Arsenal and a lot of people disagreed....)
Poyet's best bet might be to do a Mascherano and re-invent himself as a defender.
Cafcfan - maybe team's don't want a water carrier but that's all Cousins is ever going to be. Personally I think Poyet has more to backwards and sideways and showed that on occasions last season - but bear in mind he was restricted with what he could do both by the team and players around him and by the dire pitches he was playing on. He was playing in a poor side incapable of getting in or controlling games, especially after we lost Kermogant who was our main outlet. His ability to win back possession and then be comfortable offering for the ball (rather than hiding away) and retaining possession was crucial to actually give us a bit of a foothold in games last season which we hadn't previously been able to command.
I don't know what he will go on and do and obviously he's not progressing at the minute - but as far as I'm concerned he didn't really show any standout negative sides to his game last season which suggest he can't go on to international level.
That said, I do feel that Jordan's technique limitations will hold him back, whereas Poyet could still progress with the right coaching and experience . But he ain't getting the latter right now. ..
I am in no way suggesting poyet is shit or a poor player, I just honestly believe that some failed to see the mistakes poyet made or have forgotten that he also made the rookie mistakes JC does but imo he made them in far more dangerous positions as he sat deeper
Poyets influence on the outcome of games was nowhere near as positive as JC, due to the spaces they played in,
Also I predict we will do very well next year in France, can't see Uruguay doing well at all...
We all see players strengths and weaknesses differently and as such see what we want to see
Too defensive.
These passes happened a lot in games. Diego liked to stay behind the play but he'd get wide when he needed to and saw the pass. His tackle on Onuoha against QPR which led to the goal was only a couple of yards from the D and it was an aggressive, crunching challenge from a player determined to create a goal. One of the reasons Diego was picked out by Powell and then by West Ham was due to his ability to be creative as well as look after the ball. If Diego could be compared favourably with anyone it would be Michael Carrick, and Utd have only lost one of the games he's played in due to the same qualities. Coquelin filled a very similar role that Diego had for us but is four years older and has heaps more experience at a higher level so it's a bit daft so say players like Coquelin are rendering players like Poyet obsolete
So, we'll have to agree to disagree. Time will tell who is correct. BTW, the odds are in your favour because my ability at picking a player has a chequered history. (I thought Cristiano Ronaldo would get found out by PL defenders after a few games....)
He could very well be lying though.
I've been beating this drum for a while... If you look at the top teams at the world cup or in the prem and other top leagues they play a 4231 with one holding and one going box to box! All I'm doing is moving the CAM up top!