Come in no.4 your time is up! How many times have we heard rubbish like that. I always have faith in him and I'll let him or the staff decide when his time is up.
The ball was on target originally and that's all that counts on deflection goals, if the ball is not on target when deflected then it's taken away by the dubious goal panel
Jacksons free kick is on target irrelevant of it looking like a simple save for the goalie,
Based on the criteria that they seem to use on the dubious goals panel it would have to be Jacksons goal
I always thought this was for deflections etc off the defending team where as if it comes off the attacking team the person with the last touch gets the goal
As a rule, if the initial attempt is goalbound it is credited to the player making the goal attempt. However if the deflection means that a wayward effort results in a goal then it is attributed to the player who had the last definitive touch of the ball." [1]
Thats from the criteria used to decide whos goal by the dubious goal committee, nothing about attacking or defending just if the ball is goalbound and it Was, that cant be disputed
Did Racon deflect the shot intentionally? He had his back to the ball when you watch the replay. I'd say no.
In that case, I think the goal is rightfully Jackson's but it is such a huge deflection that it's weird to have only taken it away from Racon last summer.
"The Football League, however, do not employ a Dubious Goals Committee and it is left to individual clubs to name the goalscorer - which can lead to wild disagreements over who scored. In November 2002, for instance, every single national newspaper, agency and football factbook agreed that Coventry City defender Calum Davenport had scored an own goal against Burnley. The Clarets, however, gave the goal to Gareth Taylor, who crossed the ball in from near the corner flag before Davenport bundled it into his own net."
Sounds as if the FA Cup works in the same way as the Football League.
Disagree tbh if we have relied upon goals being attributed to players using a different process to that of the fa or fl then loads of goals should and could need review,
The process is there for all to see if the shot is on target then its the person who struck the balls goal, end of really its one every team in the land should follow including that teams historians and media employees
Come in no.4 your time is up! How many times have we heard rubbish like that. I always have faith in him and I'll let him or the staff decide when his time is up.
Not a chance, not when all the experts in the crowd can make it for them.
People can agree and disagree about the goal. Personally I can see both arguments and agree with both reasons, but what is odd that it has taken just under 5 years for the goal to be credited to Jacko by someone at the club.
Maybe the club needs an official historian and statistician.
People can agree and disagree about the goal. Personally I can see both arguments and agree with both reasons, but what is odd that it has taken just under 5 years for the goal to be credited to Jacko by someone at the club.
Maybe the club needs an official historian and statistician.
The club already has an official historian, Clive Harris
Need a volunteer for statistician. Do you know anyone who would be interested?
People can agree and disagree about the goal. Personally I can see both arguments and agree with both reasons, but what is odd that it has taken just under 5 years for the goal to be credited to Jacko by someone at the club.
Maybe the club needs an official historian and statistician.
The club already has an official historian, Clive Harris
Need a volunteer for statistician. Do you know anyone who would be interested?
People can agree and disagree about the goal. Personally I can see both arguments and agree with both reasons, but what is odd that it has taken just under 5 years for the goal to be credited to Jacko by someone at the club.
Maybe the club needs an official historian and statistician.
The club already has an official historian, Clive Harris
Need a volunteer for statistician. Do you know anyone who would be interested?
People can agree and disagree about the goal. Personally I can see both arguments and agree with both reasons, but what is odd that it has taken just under 5 years for the goal to be credited to Jacko by someone at the club.
Maybe the club needs an official historian and statistician.
The club already has an official historian, Clive Harris
Need a volunteer for statistician. Do you know anyone who would be interested?
People can agree and disagree about the goal. Personally I can see both arguments and agree with both reasons, but what is odd that it has taken just under 5 years for the goal to be credited to Jacko by someone at the club.
Maybe the club needs an official historian and statistician.
The club already has an official historian, Clive Harris
Need a volunteer for statistician. Do you know anyone who would be interested?
The current CEO?
I was thinking of someone else
I think Colin's too busy.
I'm sure Colin would have a clear view on all of Jackson's goals.
It sounds to me like the whole thing is a mess and the League/FA need to get a better grip of it. The whole "if the initial attempt is goal bound" idea isn't nearly as clear cut as it sounds. In this case I don't think there's any doubting that Jackson's shot was heading between the sticks and under the crossbar, but to be goal bound you have to get past the goalkeeper. Who's to say whether the keeper would have got the original shot? No-one can say with 100% certainty. I'm sure we've all seen enough football to know that keepers sometimes pull off wonder saves and sometimes let in absolute howlers (and the game wouldn't have half of its appeal if they didn't).
Letting the club decide seems like it should be a reasonable pragmatic approach in most cases, but there's too many potential conflicts of interest. Is it always the goalscoring club that decides? What if the other team sees things differently? And doesn't this abrogation of responsibility on the part of the FA/League lead to less goals being credited as own goals? Then, once a club has decided, as seems to be the case here, can they really change their minds some years on? On what grounds can a previously published decision be reversed? The whole phrase 'who gave the goal' is the one that perturbs me the most in this situation. Goals are scored, not given. There needs to be a proper system where all non-dubious goals are agreed and credited on the day of the match and all dubious goals are decided independently and irrevocably a short while after. The notion that Colin gave it, or Matt gave it, or Uncle Tom Cobley gave it needs to be consigned to the dustbin. Not because Colin and Matt and Uncle Tom aren't respected opinion givers, but because we really do need a system that produces robust decisions that aren't open to later re-interpretation.
People can agree and disagree about the goal. Personally I can see both arguments and agree with both reasons, but what is odd that it has taken just under 5 years for the goal to be credited to Jacko by someone at the club.
Maybe the club needs an official historian and statistician.
The club already has an official historian, Clive Harris
Need a volunteer for statistician. Do you know anyone who would be interested?
Look, we can either give the goal to Jacko and have him at 50 Charlton goals, or we can give a goal to Therry bloody Racon. We should be destroying all the evidence right now in case someone disagrees with us instead of arguing!
People can agree and disagree about the goal. Personally I can see both arguments and agree with both reasons, but what is odd that it has taken just under 5 years for the goal to be credited to Jacko by someone at the club.
Maybe the club needs an official historian and statistician.
The club already has an official historian, Clive Harris
Need a volunteer for statistician. Do you know anyone who would be interested?
The current CEO?
I was thinking of someone else
I think Colin's too busy.
I'm sure Colin would have a clear view on all of Jackson's goals.
22 lucky deflections
10 crosses that went in by mistake
14 where he deserted his defensive duties
6 own goals
If Colin thinks Jackson has 52 goals, I'm not sure he should be official statistician.
Can i pop outside the CAFC bubble for a moment and just say that every one who have every scored the mile stone of 50 goals or 100, must of had at least 1 goal that was contentious,yet they got the benefit of the doubt.
People can agree and disagree about the goal. Personally I can see both arguments and agree with both reasons, but what is odd that it has taken just under 5 years for the goal to be credited to Jacko by someone at the club.
Maybe the club needs an official historian and statistician.
The club already has an official historian, Clive Harris
Need a volunteer for statistician. Do you know anyone who would be interested?
I can help with that ...who do I contact?
I'd give the CEO's email address a miss, she doesn't do replies
An absolute true legend in my eyes. Almost of Mark Kinsella status.
But before we get carried away, sorry to say its only 49 goals
10/11 14 goals (13 league, 1 FA Cup) 11/12 13 goals (12 league, 1 FA Cup) 12/13 12 goals (12 league) 13/14 5 goals (5 league) 14/15 2 goals (2 league0 15/16 3 goals (3 League)
Confusion over a goal scored at Luton in a cup replay where Jackson took a free kick but it deflected in off Racon and was credited to Racon.
So still needs one more for the big 50.
Is that right, Forts? The Sheffield Wednesday programme had him on 48 and he's scored in the last two games.
Actually, the goal was credited to Jackson and @Matt_Wright took it off him! We gave it back to him as the record books (not just ours) state that it was Jacko's.
So 50 it is.
Without making too big a thing of this, I find this very strange.
I appreciate it was said jokingly, but for a start let's correct the assertion that it was *my* decision. Until Colin Cameron's death, during my time at the club he always had the final say on whom should be credited in the case of disputed goals.
My first instinct on seeing the goal (and the replays) was that it should be credited to Racon, so I certainly agreed with Colin's verdict, but even if I hadn't I wouldn't have gone against the man who was entrusted with maintaining the accuracy of the club's historical records.
Of course, I certainly 'owned' the decision in terms of explaining/defending it to those who disagreed, including Jacko (!), because senior staff are supposed to take responsibility for such things. (Indeed, Racon didn't exactly help by telling some people he was happy for Jacko to have it and others that it was his goal).
On the subject of other record books/websites, what they state is largely irrelevant. Remember Scott Wagstaff's brilliant volley against Bournemouth in August 2011 that was credited to Dale Stephens in many places? Going by the logic above, because Soccerbase still hasn't corrected that most obvious case of mistaken identity, it's unlucky Waggy. I'm afraid you did that falling over celebration for nothing.
These days, with newspapers/websites etc largely all taking stats from a solitary person present at games, it can be incredibly hard to correct any mistakes made, and there have been many occasions when even the club's website (under a centralised Football League contract) has listed different stats than appear in the match report written by the club's reporter. The role of the club is to first ensure its own stats are accurate, and then to provide such information to other outlets (obviously we failed with Rothmans @Stig).
Colin made his decisions based on the evidence available. He had no interest in pleasing players or interpreting events to suit a good narrative. Which is one of the reasons he was so respected.
Trusting Colin, and taking the decision away from 'here today, gone tomorrow' club staff (myself included), also ensured greater consistency across many, many years.
That's why, when Jonathan Fortune's backside deflected Andy Reid's free-kick into the net v Stoke City in August 2007, the goal was credited to Fortune, not Reid. And when a similar thing happened against Charlton for Notts County in February 2011, it was the backside of Neil Bishop credited, not free-kick taker Alan Gow.
Those are just two examples off the top of my head (I confess I looked up the dates) when the same approach was consistently applied to reach a logical verdict. On both occasions, all media sources reached the same conclusion as the club, so whose fault is it that they didn't apply the same reasoning in the case of Racon/Jacko? Not Colin's. Are these other goals now going to be re-examined like a detective looking at a cold case?
After all, it's hardly as if the integrity of Charlton's history was uppermost in the minds of ESPN and the junior PA staffer dispatched to the bright lights of Kenilworth Road to cover a glamorous midweek FA Cup second-round replay between Luton and Charlton... The club must strive to have higher standards.
In truth, it's unreasonable to expect that, after Colin's death, the same consistency will be applied forever more. Other people take on the mantle and will naturally apply their own standards. But it's ridiculous to go back and arbitrarily change past decisions.
Excellent post. Sums up the situation perfectly.
Makes no sense to "correct" a decision made years earlier arbitrarily. Or to "cook the books" to come up with a popular decision. Just makes a mockery of the club's records which they should take a pride in maintaining correctly.
And as you say, no-one should take the records in the Sky Sports annuals seriously. The books are littered with errors, not least because most of their stats, particularly goalscorers, are just taken from newspaper/PA reports rather than club records.
Look forward to club legend JJ scoring his "proper" 50th goal on Saturday!
Reluctantly, I'm starting to think you are right on this. Re-examining Sky's book for 2011-12, in their player's summary they credit JJ with 1 FA cup goal. But in the match reports that credit him with scoring against Luton both in the 2nd Round match at The Valley and the replay at Kenilworth Road. Conversely, Racon is credited with an FA Cup Goal in the players summary, but none in the match reports. It looks as if they've used two different sources without cross-checking them
As a rule, if the initial attempt is goalbound it is credited to the player making the goal attempt. However if the deflection means that a wayward effort results in a goal then it is attributed to the player who had the last definitive touch of the ball." [1]
Thats from the criteria used to decide whos goal by the dubious goal committee, nothing about attacking or defending just if the ball is goalbound and it Was, that cant be disputed
Not the way I had previously understood the rule, but it seems pretty clear... Jacko's goal.
It's nearly Christmas so let's be generous and give one of our finest captains the benefit of the doubt and ink it into the history books that he reached his half century on 21/11/2015.
Giving him back that goal might go some way towards making up for losing his legs.
This is a thread about Captain Johnnie Jackson and Not the great captain and hero Captain Sir Douglas Bader. Hope it not too soon ? as DB accident was in December 1931. Not a lot of people know That !
I love Jacko to bits , as you may have guessed, but I do think it's a damning incitement on our club that it has taken 20 odd years for a Charlton player to reach 50 goals, or maybe it's a sign of how crap the modern game has become,and why apathy is rife.
Comments
Thats from the criteria used to decide whos goal by the dubious goal committee, nothing about attacking or defending just if the ball is goalbound and it Was, that cant be disputed
Was the shot on target? It looks that way.
Did Racon deflect the shot intentionally? He had his back to the ball when you watch the replay. I'd say no.
In that case, I think the goal is rightfully Jackson's but it is such a huge deflection that it's weird to have only taken it away from Racon last summer.
"The Football League, however, do not employ a Dubious Goals Committee and it is left to individual clubs to name the goalscorer - which can lead to wild disagreements over who scored. In November 2002, for instance, every single national newspaper, agency and football factbook agreed that Coventry City defender Calum Davenport had scored an own goal against Burnley. The Clarets, however, gave the goal to Gareth Taylor, who crossed the ball in from near the corner flag before Davenport bundled it into his own net."
Sounds as if the FA Cup works in the same way as the Football League.
The process is there for all to see if the shot is on target then its the person who struck the balls goal, end of really its one every team in the land should follow including that teams historians and media employees
Isn't the deflection rule about defenders touch? The last attacking player to touch the ball gets the goal
Maybe the club needs an official historian and statistician.
Need a volunteer for statistician. Do you know anyone who would be interested?
22 lucky deflections
10 crosses that went in by mistake
14 where he deserted his defensive duties
6 own goals
Letting the club decide seems like it should be a reasonable pragmatic approach in most cases, but there's too many potential conflicts of interest. Is it always the goalscoring club that decides? What if the other team sees things differently? And doesn't this abrogation of responsibility on the part of the FA/League lead to less goals being credited as own goals? Then, once a club has decided, as seems to be the case here, can they really change their minds some years on? On what grounds can a previously published decision be reversed? The whole phrase 'who gave the goal' is the one that perturbs me the most in this situation. Goals are scored, not given. There needs to be a proper system where all non-dubious goals are agreed and credited on the day of the match and all dubious goals are decided independently and irrevocably a short while after. The notion that Colin gave it, or Matt gave it, or Uncle Tom Cobley gave it needs to be consigned to the dustbin. Not because Colin and Matt and Uncle Tom aren't respected opinion givers, but because we really do need a system that produces robust decisions that aren't open to later re-interpretation.
We won, he has 50 goals, enjoy it FFS
It's nearly Christmas so let's be generous and give one of our finest captains the benefit of the doubt and ink it into the history books that he reached his half century on 21/11/2015.
Giving him back that goal might go some way towards making up for losing his legs.
the great captain and hero Captain Sir Douglas Bader.
Hope it not too soon ? as DB accident was in December 1931.
Not a lot of people know That !