Crossrail

JohnBoyUK

Rothko said:

JohnBoyUK said:

I still haven't set foot on the Liz line!

Did I read it right somewhere that South Eastern are now putting Gravesend and beyond trains down the Bexleyheath and SIdcup lines to stop commuters using the Liz Line to protect their revenue, or did I conjure that up in my head?

Exactly what they are doing 

Bastards!

ChiAddick

I imagine decisions like that go through the DFT. Why on earth would they allow that. Morally incomprehensible.

guinnessaddick

ChiAddick said:

I imagine decisions like that go through the DFT. Why on earth would they allow that. Morally incomprehensible.

Probably because crossrail is run by TFL and the train companies want to protect  the money for their shareholders.

stevexreeve

guinnessaddick said:

ChiAddick said:

I imagine decisions like that go through the DFT. Why on earth would they allow that. Morally incomprehensible.

Probably because crossrail is run by TFL and the train companies want to protect  the money for their shareholders.

I thought South Eastern was owned by the government.

So British taxpayers are the 'shareholders' that are being protected.

cantersaddick

ChiAddick said:

I imagine decisions like that go through the DFT. Why on earth would they allow that. Morally incomprehensible.

they tried to get the change through in 2018 and 2019 but were rejected. They used covid and reduced journeys as an argument to finally get it through but its really all about cost savings. 

Its a joke because the sidcup line (well us at New Eltham) went from 13 trains an hour at peak time to 6. Trains were busy at rush hour before the change but now they barely cope. All it takes i minor delays like this morning and the whole line breaks down and you get people fighting to get on trains and complete chaos!

And I read this week in the independent journeys in london are on average (some places higher some lower) back to 2019 levels so reducing services citing covid as the reason is criminal.

RickAddick

Bit of context required here!!
Before Thameslink and CrossRail, 2 trains per hour ran via the Woolwich Line from Charing Cross to Gillingham, semi-fast and 2 tph all stations from CHX to Gravesend via Sidcup., in the off peak This service has sometimes run via Bexleyheath over the years.
During the peak, the Gillingham to CHX service ran via Sidcup and a Gillingham to Cannon Street service via Woolwich. Other trains terminating at Gravesend may have run via Bexleyheath or Woolwich, can't remember!
Thameslink saw the Gillingham service extended to a new reversing platform at Rainham, diverted the Thameslink central section to Luton and transfered to Thameslink to operate.
The DfT wished the number of Gravesend to be increased from 2 to 4 tph and now 2 tph run to CHX via Sidcup and 2 tph to Canon Street via Woolwich. This pattern is repeated in both the peak and off peak currently.
According to Realtime Trains (for 16 January, ie the current weekday timetable) no services beyond Dartford run via Bexleyheath towards London and only one in the late evening peak away from London.
Not sure where JonBoy and others got their facts from?
The DfT micro-manage the train operating companies they are responsible for and that the Westminster Government subsidises. This includes a very detailed timetable specification. The TOCs run the services they are paid for and Network Rail provides the railway infrastructure. Neither specify the timetable, although NR does input on capacity issues to ensure that the DfT specification can be operated successfully. 

PragueAddick

Rothko said:

JohnBoyUK said:

I still haven't set foot on the Liz line!

Did I read it right somewhere that South Eastern are now putting Gravesend and beyond trains down the Bexleyheath and SIdcup lines to stop commuters using the Liz Line to protect their revenue, or did I conjure that up in my head?

Exactly what they are doing 

Blimey. Does that mean the total number of trains per hour on the Woolwich line has been reduced, and increased on the BX and Loop line because of this?

Doesn't TfL have some power to do something about this? Increased connectivity should be a mandate, and deliberately decreasing it, should be punishable. 

If instead SE ran more trains from Eltham etc, round the loop via Slade Green to reach Abbey Wood, I'd take one of them, so that I wouldn't have to bother my sister to pick me up/drop me off at Woolwich Arsenal. 

PragueAddick

RickAddick said:

Bit of context required here!!
Before Thameslink and CrossRail, 2 trains per hour ran via the Woolwich Line from Charing Cross to Gillingham, semi-fast and 2 tph all stations from CHX to Gravesend via Sidcup., in the off peak This service has sometimes run via Bexleyheath over the years.
During the peak, the Gillingham to CHX service ran via Sidcup and a Gillingham to Cannon Street service via Woolwich. Other trains terminating at Gravesend may have run via Bexleyheath or Woolwich, can't remember!
Thameslink saw the Gillingham service extended to a new reversing platform at Rainham, diverted the Thameslink central section to Luton and transfered to Thameslink to operate.
The DfT wished the number of Gravesend to be increased from 2 to 4 tph and now 2 tph run to CHX via Sidcup and 2 tph to Canon Street via Woolwich. This pattern is repeated in both the peak and off peak currently.
According to Realtime Trains (for 16 January, ie the current weekday timetable) no services beyond Dartford run via Bexleyheath towards London and only one in the late evening peak away from London.
Not sure where JonBoy and others got their facts from?
The DfT micro-manage the train operating companies they are responsible for and that the Westminster Government subsidises. This includes a very detailed timetable specification. The TOCs run the services they are paid for and Network Rail provides the railway infrastructure. Neither specify the timetable, although NR does input on capacity issues to ensure that the DfT specification can be operated successfully. 

Well there's the problem, right there. It ought to be TfL that plans all these services to get the most out of all train and other services so that public transport is a viable choice. See the example in my post above.

The Department for Cars has a lot to answer for overall when it comes to the state of Britain's railways and I hope Starmer's crew have well thought out plans to cut them down to size.

Rothko

PragueAddick said:

Rothko said:

JohnBoyUK said:

I still haven't set foot on the Liz line!

Did I read it right somewhere that South Eastern are now putting Gravesend and beyond trains down the Bexleyheath and SIdcup lines to stop commuters using the Liz Line to protect their revenue, or did I conjure that up in my head?

Exactly what they are doing 

Blimey. Does that mean the total number of trains per hour on the Woolwich line has been reduced, and increased on the BX and Loop line because of this?

Doesn't TfL have some power to do something about this? Increased connectivity should be a mandate, and deliberately decreasing it, should be punishable. 

If instead SE ran more trains from Eltham etc, round the loop via Slade Green to reach Abbey Wood, I'd take one of them, so that I wouldn't have to bother my sister to pick me up/drop me off at Woolwich Arsenal. 

No it means the number of trains from the Medway towns and north Kent to Abbey wood will go from 4 to 2, with all SE Woolwich line trains now ending at Dartford. 

Means for those paying the big fares up from Kent would now need to change at Dartford or wait for the half hourly Thameslinks to Abbey Wood.

Billy_Mix

jacob_CAFC said:

Rothko said:

JohnBoyUK said:

I still haven't set foot on the Liz line!

Did I read it right somewhere that South Eastern are now putting Gravesend and beyond trains down the Bexleyheath and SIdcup lines to stop commuters using the Liz Line to protect their revenue, or did I conjure that up in my head?

Exactly what they are doing 

that's fucking criminal 

right up there with having the obvious public monopoly rail service carved up and propped up with taxpayers' money for the exclusive benefit of private enterprise
closely followed by having 3 competing service providers running services in such a small area of the network
the biggest surprise is that there are managers that bright at SETrains to recognise and use the opportunity
does keep the gravesend and medway riff raff from cross contaminating too many decent folk

Billy_Mix

guinnessaddick said:

ChiAddick said:

I imagine decisions like that go through the DFT. Why on earth would they allow that. Morally incomprehensible.

Probably because crossrail is run by TFL and the train companies want to protect  the money for their shareholders.

Also TfL is currently supervised and funded by the tories' public enemy number 1: London's mayor - Anything to make his life harder in their vain pursuit of replacing him at the next mayoral election

jacob_CAFC

‘Free money!’ Avanti West Coast bosses caught joking about UK government handouts | Rail industry | The Guardian

Not sure if anyone saw this - but shows what these private railways think of us! 

Off_it

jacob_CAFC said:

‘Free money!’ Avanti West Coast bosses caught joking about UK government handouts | Rail industry | The Guardian

Not sure if anyone saw this - but shows what these private railways think of us! 

Personally I'm not that bothered what rail companies think of us, the paying customers, as long as they are providing a good, efficient service that is value for money.

The choice of language used by some shitty middle-manager to try and bring some attention to himself internally also doesn't really bother me too much - there are wankers in all walks of life.

The most telling part of that article, in my view, is this - "The fact the company feels emboldened to boast that they get ‘free money’ is down to the ridiculous system of rail ownership in this country."

The trains in this country have been a mess for a long as I can remember and aren't getting any better. Nobody seems able or willing to fix the problems, so round we go again.

Swindon_Addick

Billy_Mix said:

guinnessaddick said:

ChiAddick said:

I imagine decisions like that go through the DFT. Why on earth would they allow that. Morally incomprehensible.

Probably because crossrail is run by TFL and the train companies want to protect  the money for their shareholders.

Also TfL is currently supervised and funded by the tories' public enemy number 1: London's mayor - Anything to make his life harder in their vain pursuit of replacing him at the next mayoral election

Because TfL is funded by Khan while all revenue received by the main line train companies goes to offset government subsidies, anything that diverts fare revenue from TfL to Southeastern is a win-win for the government. It makes Khan marginally less popular and it reduces the pressure on their budgets at a time when they're desperate to make high-profile tax cuts because there's an election looming. I suspect they're motivated more by trying to win seats outside London in the autumn than by any thought of beating Khan in May - if they thought that was realistic they'd surely have picked a better candidate.

Either way, it won't be the train company management behind any changes - they're paid a management fee and don't get a share in the revenue. If anything, it's in their interests to run more trains so as to get a bigger fee for running them, but they'll only do that if the government agree to the trains being run. So it all ends up with the Department for Motorists ... sorry Department for Transport.

PragueAddick

Just as an aside in a couple of weeks time, for the first time, I'll be taking a Eurostar from  St Pancras (because of course the ****ers refuse to re-open Ebbsfleet) 

So from Eltham I guess the quickest way is to use the Liz line from Woolwich Arsenal (my sister will drop me off)..but where do I get off for the easiest access to St.P? I will have a small suitcase with me. The Eurostar leaves at 12.31, what time do (standard class) people need to be at St. P based on recent experience (I believe the queues have settled down a bit?)

Rothko

PragueAddick said:

Just as an aside in a couple of weeks time, for the first time, I'll be taking a Eurostar from  St Pancras (because of course the ****ers refuse to re-open Ebbsfleet) 

So from Eltham I guess the quickest way is to use the Liz line from Woolwich Arsenal (my sister will drop me off)..but where do I get off for the easiest access to St.P? I will have a small suitcase with me. The Eurostar leaves at 12.31, what time do (standard class) people need to be at St. P based on recent experience (I believe the queues have settled down a bit?)

Farringdon, one stop from there to StP

clive

PragueAddick said:

Just as an aside in a couple of weeks time, for the first time, I'll be taking a Eurostar from  St Pancras (because of course the ****ers refuse to re-open Ebbsfleet) 

So from Eltham I guess the quickest way is to use the Liz line from Woolwich Arsenal (my sister will drop me off)..but where do I get off for the easiest access to St.P? I will have a small suitcase with me. The Eurostar leaves at 12.31, what time do (standard class) people need to be at St. P based on recent experience (I believe the queues have settled down a bit?)

Change at Farringdon, board the front of the train & then board a Northbound Thameslink train to St Pancras [one stop] this is a slightly quicker interchange as stops under the Eurostar platforms, alternatively board a Hammersmith, Circle or Metropolitan line train to Kings Cross/St Pancras [one stop].
Alternative route is Thameslink [half-hourly] from Woolwich Arsenal direct to St Pancras, which takes about 45 minutes.

Weegie Addick

Yes just get a Thameslink train from Woolwich or perhaps Greenwich if as easy for your sister to drop you off there? No need to change then. 

Crusty54

guinnessaddick said:

ChiAddick said:

I imagine decisions like that go through the DFT. Why on earth would they allow that. Morally incomprehensible.

Probably because crossrail is run by TFL and the train companies want to protect  the money for their shareholders.

Sorry but Southeastern is effectively nationalised with an operating costs plus a small margin contract. The DfT is in control.

MuttleyCAFC

What is interesting is how the renationalisation of the railways is now supported by many people, both left and right. It is also interesting where companies have lost their franchise and the 'Government' has taken them over, how these companies seem to be performing well. Much better at least.

TelMc32

Swindon_Addick said:

Billy_Mix said:

guinnessaddick said:

ChiAddick said:

I imagine decisions like that go through the DFT. Why on earth would they allow that. Morally incomprehensible.

Probably because crossrail is run by TFL and the train companies want to protect  the money for their shareholders.

Also TfL is currently supervised and funded by the tories' public enemy number 1: London's mayor - Anything to make his life harder in their vain pursuit of replacing him at the next mayoral election

Because TfL is funded by Khan while all revenue received by the main line train companies goes to offset government subsidies, anything that diverts fare revenue from TfL to Southeastern is a win-win for the government. It makes Khan marginally less popular and it reduces the pressure on their budgets at a time when they're desperate to make high-profile tax cuts because there's an election looming. I suspect they're motivated more by trying to win seats outside London in the autumn than by any thought of beating Khan in May - if they thought that was realistic they'd surely have picked a better candidate.

Either way, it won't be the train company management behind any changes - they're paid a management fee and don't get a share in the revenue. If anything, it's in their interests to run more trains so as to get a bigger fee for running them, but they'll only do that if the government agree to the trains being run. So it all ends up with the Department for Motorists ... sorry Department for Transport.

Swindon_Addick said:

Billy_Mix said:

guinnessaddick said:

ChiAddick said:

I imagine decisions like that go through the DFT. Why on earth would they allow that. Morally incomprehensible.

Probably because crossrail is run by TFL and the train companies want to protect  the money for their shareholders.

Also TfL is currently supervised and funded by the tories' public enemy number 1: London's mayor - Anything to make his life harder in their vain pursuit of replacing him at the next mayoral election

Because TfL is funded by Khan while all revenue received by the main line train companies goes to offset government subsidies, anything that diverts fare revenue from TfL to Southeastern is a win-win for the government. It makes Khan marginally less popular and it reduces the pressure on their budgets at a time when they're desperate to make high-profile tax cuts because there's an election looming. I suspect they're motivated more by trying to win seats outside London in the autumn than by any thought of beating Khan in May - if they thought that was realistic they'd surely have picked a better candidate.

Either way, it won't be the train company management behind any changes - they're paid a management fee and don't get a share in the revenue. If anything, it's in their interests to run more trains so as to get a bigger fee for running them, but they'll only do that if the government agree to the trains being run. So it all ends up with the Department for Motorists ... sorry Department for Transport.

It’s all party politics to the detriment of passengers. Chris Grayling blocked the transfer of metro rail services, a plan put forward by Johnson (when mayor) and Grayling’s predecessor because he didn’t want a future Labour mayor having control. 

PragueAddick

Another non-resident question: What is the best app to use nowadays for quick route planning using public transport  when out and about in London? 

And if I have multiple journeys in one day with Eltham as my base do I just use my contactless debit card to get the best price for the day? That works on buses too?

Feel like a tourist 🙁

charlton4ever

PragueAddick said:

Another non-resident question: What is the best app to use nowadays for quick route planning using public transport  when out and about in London? 

And if I have multiple journeys in one day with Eltham as my base do I just use my contactless debit card to get the best price for the day? That works on buses too?

Feel like a tourist 🙁

I use Bus Checker and Citymapper. And debit will be fine.

Rothko

TfLGo is pretty good as well 

BalladMan

I just use googlemaps for transport planning from New Eltham. 

Off_it

BalladMan said:

I just use googlemaps for transport planning from New Eltham. 

Yeah, me too these days. Only problem with it can be that it gives you too many options sometimes. 

I mean, if I'm going into town you can skip the "bus to Lewisham and DLR from there" option!

Lincsaddick

PragueAddick said:

Another non-resident question: What is the best app to use nowadays for quick route planning using public transport  when out and about in London? 

And if I have multiple journeys in one day with Eltham as my base do I just use my contactless debit card to get the best price for the day? That works on buses too?

Feel like a tourist 🙁

I always use the tfl app when in London, gives choices of mode of transport, times etc etc, VERY useful

clive

PragueAddick said:

Another non-resident question: What is the best app to use nowadays for quick route planning using public transport  when out and about in London? 

And if I have multiple journeys in one day with Eltham as my base do I just use my contactless debit card to get the best price for the day? That works on buses too?

Feel like a tourist 🙁

https://tfl.gov.uk/maps_/tfl-go

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/pay-as-you-go/contactless-and-mobile-pay-as-you-go?intcmp=55539

swords_alive

Contactless (i.e. debit card) all the way (busses too); except if venturing to special fare stations outside zone 6 on the train, then i might consider using my network card to get a better price. Contactless auto  calculates when you hit the fare cap for the day, or week. You also can change busses for no extra cost within an hour (useful to know if you do not possess a bus pass or freedom pass already). 

PragueAddick

So here I am in Eltham and I was up town for the day yesterday, and at Eltham station discovered something which, AFAIK doesn‘t seem widely  known. There is a half hourly service from CannonStreet running up the BX line , swerving Dartford and back down the Woolwich line. This provides a direct connection to the Liz line at Abbey Wood. That takes 26 mins, down to 21 mins obvs if you get on at Welling. When my sister picked me up on Thursday at Abbey Wood that took us a good 20 mins to get back, so its competitive. 

And here‘s the thing. The TFL app doesnt mention this option at all, even if you ask it about starting from Eltham station 2 mins before that train departs. Insted it recommends you routes involving buses taking 40mins +. Not iimpressed with that app.

Meanwhile last night at 20.00 Waterloo East had an info blackout. No info on the panelś, no tannoy system. Trouble with Waterloo is, you need to know which platform and if you chose wrong, you are stuffed. Tfl app useless. Before leaving the pub with mates I knew I was looking for a train leaving 20.17 to connect at Lewisham, but didnt know which platform.  Tried Google. It instructed me to get across to platform C for a Hayes train to get to Lewisham at 20.25 Just as I started to head off of Platform A a train rolled with “Dartford” on the front. I thought it’s worth a punt, and when I got on, it was indeed a BX line train, completely missed by both TfL and Google.

Surely TfL should be leading the way in getting a grip on this info-chaos. I am wondering if there is some kind of tension between them and South-Eastern?