I'm well and truly on my soapbox now; but forgive me because I'm on my commute home and barely as denmark Hill. Ive browsed twitter and exhausted the newspaper.
I wouldnt want my comments about Luton and Whitechapel to come across as alarmist or dincrediblyr even racist.
However I do feel these areas are the key to stopping homegrown extremism. Deal with the areas that have become "pockets of a far flung land" and ensure we never let them become that way again. They need to become British again because the members of those community, regardless of how it sounds, are actually British.
The land they walk on everyday and the system they use.. is British. By not confronting these areas we ARE ignoring what they're doing and that in itself leads to the feelings of disconnect. I can understand how someone who has grown up in these places can see themselves as Muslim above British; and this is our fault because we've let them grow up in to places we've neglected and allowed to become microsocieties.
It's brilliant that I can hear the call to prayers in some areas, but it's not brilliant that there are places I only feel safe with Asian friends.
Integration isn't invasion; nor is integration simply allowing the "right of self chosen segregation". We need to treat everyone the same and expect the same from everyone; cultural excuses shouldn't cut it.
Unfortunately I can't see a plausible way of doing this because I think it's gone too far.
Agree (unfortunately) in that it will end in bloodshed and it's gone too far to be reversed.
I predicted over 15 years ago that this will end in civil war (of a kind) in this Country and i still believe that - when i don't know but I'm convinced.
I spoke about my concerns years back about the problems down the line as a result of the huge muslim influx, lack of integration, tip-toeing around them, letting them preach hate against us on our own streets ffs etc etc.
Yes most of them are peaceful etc etc but i genuinely feel people severly underestimate the real thoughts and believes a lot of them (even the more moderate ones) hold and that they'd never openly admit about us and more importantly our way of life.
Hope I'm wrong but i won't be surprised one bit when it all gets very very ugly.
People trot out this civil war line every few years.
Notting Hill riots in 76 was the first time I heard it but it was said earlier Rivers of Blood and cable St and out likely before that
There was no civil war after the murder of Lee Rigby or the 2011 riots.
Not you but when I read and hear it the people say often it with a relish as if that is what they want.
Which of course it was for the scum who killed Rigby as it was for the little nazi who got sent down for attaching an Asian man in a supermarket in revenge (the victim was a Sikh but they all look the same sic).
There won't be a civil war. That isn't a solution as much as nutters on the far right and the jihad would like one.
Like most complicated and long standing issues this is complicated, has multiple causes and no simple solution.
But as some old bloke said jaw jaw is better than war war.
You may well be right Henry - time, as always, will tell. I just think at the current rate some serious event 2 years or 20 years away will be the tipping point.
I think the people predicting this years back were probably people with simple racist views about the "influx of blacks into our Country" or along those lines.
I think what we have here is a very different beast where general joe (not full of hatred) bloggs is getting sick and tired of what they are witnessing. The modern world means events are rammed down people's throats, the normal couple in the West Country can see what is happening on the streets of Luton etc - people are angry and too many more events close to home will push our incredibly restrained patience to tipping point.
I hope our Govt grow some balls before that point but everyone is so petrified of offending someone these days that i won't hold my breath.
But that is pretty much what I was hearing in the 70s, which was a much more violent time in the UK in just about every way imho
It's just the names that change.
If people start buying into the civil war myth they are doing what the jihadis want.
Personally think you're a nut nut if you believe in any religion. These are just the extreme nut nuts.
The world is a sick place.
I'm not particularly religious, but can't help but feel the message from big JC was fundamentally a good one and it has probably resulted in less people killing one another than if he'd never existed.
Personally think you're a nut nut if you believe in any religion. These are just the extreme nut nuts.
The world is a sick place.
I'm not particularly religious, but can't help but feel the message from big JC was fundamentally a good one and it has probably resulted in less people killing one another than if he'd never existed.
Personally think you're a nut nut if you believe in any religion. These are just the extreme nut nuts.
The world is a sick place.
I'm not particularly religious, but can't help but feel the message from big JC was fundamentally a good one and it has probably resulted in less people killing one another than if he'd never existed.
Please tell me you are joking. The God of the old testament is a war mongering bastard and the God of the new testament hates gays.
Throw in pointless stories like talking snakes and turning human beings into blocks of salt and you've got a book full of total crap and a bunch of dead bodies.
Personally think you're a nut nut if you believe in any religion. These are just the extreme nut nuts.
The world is a sick place.
I'm not particularly religious, but can't help but feel the message from big JC was fundamentally a good one and it has probably resulted in less people killing one another than if he'd never existed.
Please tell me you are joking. The God of the old testament is a war mongering bastard and the God of the new testament hates gays.
Throw in pointless stories like talking snakes and turning human beings into blocks of salt and you've got a book full of total crap and a bunch of dead bodies.
Jesus was not in the old testament.
But regardless, don't take it all so literally.
The point I'm making is that religion has actually stopped a very large amount of people from killing one another. Who knows how many, but people who have a strong sensible faith will typically promote the opposite of violence. And a Christian who helps someone is less likely to make the news than one who chops someones head off.
I admire those who have a sensible faith, even if what drives them is either ultimately nonsense, or beyond my comprehension.
You can be a religious person and believe in God whilst still recognising that whilst the general message of forgiveness and love is still as important today as it ever was, the finer details of the Bible as written are now unfortunately outdated and do not reflect today's society any more and that some of what once was seen as wrong is quite rightly accepted. I know this because I do it myself every day.
Charleston happened last week so I don't think the problem is as simple as you all think. Removing religion from the world won't make too much of an impact with these attacks, the problem is cultural not religious.
These "people" are not Muslim, although they'd call themselves that.
I hope you apply the same logic to us Millwall fans and the unsavoury element among us.
We may not want to acknowledge that these people are of the Islamic faith as it doesn't fit in with how we want to perceive the religion. Not least to protect the moderate and law abiding people that live in harmony alongside us. However, whether we like it or not, they are Islamic and no amount of distancing them from the faith will change that, unfortunately.
And they are a tiny tiny minority in the billions of Muslims around the world.
They are also only using Islam as a reason to inflict misery on other people. As I said, it's Ramadan, Muslims should be fasting and going to the mosque etc (although my knowledge of Ramadan is incredibly limited, please correct me on this). Not beheading and blowing up a mosque as they have done in Kuwait today as well.
That Charlestown nutter used his race as justification for shooting people. Are we going to have to tell all white people that they should make extra effort to condemn the shootings? No.
I'm not going to change my opinion on Islam because of one or two nut cases that want me dead.
Let's not forget a lot of this anti west shit goes back to britains atrocious management of Palestine and the holy land over the last hundred years or so. We are as much to blame as a nation as the religion of Islam itself.
It's called 'whataboutery', Tom and it's very common when defending theocratic fascistic psychopaths.
'Islamophobia' is such a ridiculous word. A phobia is irrational by definition. It is perfectly rational to be wary of a religion that views you as inherently inferior and believes in death for those that abandon it or are homosexual and those who dare to criticise the 'perfect human being' who was in fact a paedophile and sadistic psychopath that they hold as being beyond reproach or criticism.
It is an irritational fear. The chances of you dying at the hand of Islamic extremists is incredibly remote.
No doubt that was what those unfortunate holiday makers in Sousse believed until today.....
Sorry guys. Only just back from the pub and hadn't read others' responses to this .
This IS thing is a serious problem that needs the world to gather together and tackle as one but Its not just religious zelots causing all these problems its also power hungry warlords and leaders wanting Oil, power and money and what ever other riches they can get their hands on ..... I am not pro any of these horrific crimes that have been happening, but if we have look a little closer to home and how the British Empire was created it was dominitaon of other parts of the world stripping them of thier riches then giving back to them in a worse state of affairs with no formal governance as we were the aggressors no one said we should stop back then .... the saying goes one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter
I'm well and truly on my soapbox now; but forgive me because I'm on my commute home and barely as denmark Hill. Ive browsed twitter and exhausted the newspaper.
I wouldnt want my comments about Luton and Whitechapel to come across as alarmist or dincrediblyr even racist.
However I do feel these areas are the key to stopping homegrown extremism. Deal with the areas that have become "pockets of a far flung land" and ensure we never let them become that way again. They need to become British again because the members of those community, regardless of how it sounds, are actually British.
The land they walk on everyday and the system they use.. is British. By not confronting these areas we ARE ignoring what they're doing and that in itself leads to the feelings of disconnect. I can understand how someone who has grown up in these places can see themselves as Muslim above British; and this is our fault because we've let them grow up in to places we've neglected and allowed to become microsocieties.
It's brilliant that I can hear the call to prayers in some areas, but it's not brilliant that there are places I only feel safe with Asian friends.
Integration isn't invasion; nor is integration simply allowing the "right of self chosen segregation". We need to treat everyone the same and expect the same from everyone; cultural excuses shouldn't cut it.
Unfortunately I can't see a plausible way of doing this because I think it's gone too far.
Agree (unfortunately) in that it will end in bloodshed and it's gone too far to be reversed.
I predicted over 15 years ago that this will end in civil war (of a kind) in this Country and i still believe that - when i don't know but I'm convinced.
I spoke about my concerns years back about the problems down the line as a result of the huge muslim influx, lack of integration, tip-toeing around them, letting them preach hate against us on our own streets ffs etc etc.
Yes most of them are peaceful etc etc but i genuinely feel people severly underestimate the real thoughts and believes a lot of them (even the more moderate ones) hold and that they'd never openly admit about us and more importantly our way of life.
Hope I'm wrong but i won't be surprised one bit when it all gets very very ugly.
People trot out this civil war line every few years.
Notting Hill riots in 76 was the first time I heard it but it was said earlier Rivers of Blood and cable St and out likely before that
There was no civil war after the murder of Lee Rigby or the 2011 riots.
Not you but when I read and hear it the people say often it with a relish as if that is what they want.
Which of course it was for the scum who killed Rigby as it was for the little nazi who got sent down for attaching an Asian man in a supermarket in revenge (the victim was a Sikh but they all look the same sic).
There won't be a civil war. That isn't a solution as much as nutters on the far right and the jihad would like one.
Like most complicated and long standing issues this is complicated, has multiple causes and no simple solution.
But as some old bloke said jaw jaw is better than war war.
You may well be right Henry - time, as always, will tell. I just think at the current rate some serious event 2 years or 20 years away will be the tipping point.
I think the people predicting this years back were probably people with simple racist views about the "influx of blacks into our Country" or along those lines. I think what we have here is a very different beast where general joe (not full of hatred) bloggs is getting sick and tired of what they are witnessing. The modern world means events are rammed down people's throats, the normal couple in the West Country can see what is happening on the streets of Luton etc - people are angry and too many more events close to home will push our incredibly restrained patience to tipping point.
I hope our Govt grow some balls before that point but everyone is so petrified of offending someone these days that i won't hold my breath.
Couldn't agree with this point more. Well said Stig
Personally think you're a nut nut if you believe in any religion. These are just the extreme nut nuts.
The world is a sick place.
I'm not particularly religious, but can't help but feel the message from big JC was fundamentally a good one and it has probably resulted in less people killing one another than if he'd never existed.
Please tell me you are joking. The God of the old testament is a war mongering bastard and the God of the new testament hates gays.
Throw in pointless stories like talking snakes and turning human beings into blocks of salt and you've got a book full of total crap and a bunch of dead bodies.
Just as someone who wants to murder innocent people will point to scriptures and say "look look it says here that I'm supposed to do this" anyone wanting to bash religion will point to the bad bits and say "look look it contained crackpot ideas". Both will totally disregard any good meaning in them.
Just to confirm I'm not likening anyone who is an atheist with a religious extremist but both do ignore the good that was initially intended. Of course there will be things in them that by today's standards are totally bizarre and completely immoral, yet it is understandable that at the time that was the general feeling in society. That also shouldn't excuse any atrocities carried out in the name of any book or anything hateful contained within them but overall I think religions do ultimately have the aim of making the world a better place through whatever means.
There are more people currently alive than have ever lived.
Oft quoted aberrant nonsense. Just think it through, it cannot possibly be true.
A mathmetician told me who had studied at Imperial College. I reluctantly believed him. Exponential growth etc.
When you think how many folk currently live in China and India alone it makes it hard not to believe.
I'm with you there, it's very easy to believe (even for mathematicians), that's how this particular rumour has spread so easily. But it is just plain wrong. 6%.
I went on holiday to Port El Kantaoui last year, staying at a hotel along that same stretch of beach, which makes what happened today even more real to me.
For all the hatred in those responsible for the attack, I can remember the friendliness of the staff who work there and the local people.
Stig I agree with you but as with most of these publications they are many peoples interpretations written down over centries and people take what they want from them if it suits their cause with any book you will take the side of the character whom you bond with by the authors writings all a bloody waste of time really
I always saw relgion as a way of controlling the masses which has now relaxed so people can interpret it as they wish. Sadly, some places haven't reached this stage yet. How can religion promote peace and free will, yet still have strict instructions?
I always saw relgion as a way of controlling the masses which has now relaxed so people can interpret it as they wish. Sadly, some places haven't reached this stage yet. How can religion promote peace and free will, yet still have strict instructions?
But we all live by strict instructions within society whether we like it or not. You could even argue that those are enforced upon us yet with religion you yourself can choose which set of rules you want to live by.
My view on religion is that I'd never knock as I think it has it's uses. For example, people often find comfort in their religion when they lose a loved one etc.
In saying that though, I also think that it is the main cause of most conlicts and would be willing to stick my house on the fact that more people have been killed over religion than saved by it..
Comments
It's just the names that change.
If people start buying into the civil war myth they are doing what the jihadis want.
Throw in pointless stories like talking snakes and turning human beings into blocks of salt and you've got a book full of total crap and a bunch of dead bodies.
This is fuck all to do with Bibles or any other holly book
It's about greed , anger , money and control it's an indoctrination of weak minded pricks who blindly follow violent and indiscriminate killers
And hide behind books as an excuse ,
As in all things this is more about , gas, oil, human slavery , drugs and control
On all sides Imo
But regardless, don't take it all so literally.
The point I'm making is that religion has actually stopped a very large amount of people from killing one another. Who knows how many, but people who have a strong sensible faith will typically promote the opposite of violence. And a Christian who helps someone is less likely to make the news than one who chops someones head off.
I admire those who have a sensible faith, even if what drives them is either ultimately nonsense, or beyond my comprehension.
Sorry guys. Only just back from the pub and hadn't read others' responses to this .
It was a Beautiful location with many nice people
But even then you didnt ever not have an antenna on alert ,
Especially on the Sahara tour in the mountains and dunes
Anyone who has ever said they were thinking of going there I have said I think your mad , it's not safe Imo , I wouldn't go
Same as Egypt , and Turkey you have to consider this to be a real situation that you will fave
People will say what about this city that city in mainland Europe with examples of terror attacks
But why risk it that much , when a holiday is too relax
When you think how many folk currently live in China and India alone it makes it hard not to believe.
Daughter & her family were thinking of going to Sharm for the first time as soon as the kids break up this summer.
A rethink meant they have opted for Cancun where they honeymooned nearly 14 years ago .
Worrying times around the world but why tempt providence.
Just to confirm I'm not likening anyone who is an atheist with a religious extremist but both do ignore the good that was initially intended. Of course there will be things in them that by today's standards are totally bizarre and completely immoral, yet it is understandable that at the time that was the general feeling in society. That also shouldn't excuse any atrocities carried out in the name of any book or anything hateful contained within them but overall I think religions do ultimately have the aim of making the world a better place through whatever means.
I don't see the attraction of places like Egypt & Tunisia.
I go on holiday to relax & I wouldn't be as relaxed in countries like this.
RIP the poor souls.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-living-outnumber-dead/
; )
For all the hatred in those responsible for the attack, I can remember the friendliness of the staff who work there and the local people.
In saying that though, I also think that it is the main cause of most conlicts and would be willing to stick my house on the fact that more people have been killed over religion than saved by it..