Chizz. I wonder if you would feel the same, if they had murdered your family in Tunisia last week and were standing outside your front door, right now, waving ISIL flags ?
I feel dreadfully and terribly sorry for anyone who has lost anyone close to them in any terrorist atrocity anywhere.
Let me answer your question like this. I wouldn't feel any *safer* if that horrible flag were banned. In fact, if it were banned and someone still waved it, I would feel less safe.
Arbitrarily banning a flag does not end terrorism. Bringing about a more tolerant, inclusive society certainly does.
In an ideal world (and I am fully aware we'll never get there) the flag would not be banned, it would be forgotten.
In a utopian world maybe, back in the real world, the terrorists take full advantage of our tolerant society to peddle their hate filled agendas. Not forgetting that if we do have a tolerant society, then people should 'tolerate' those with enough common sense who want items of hate (the flag in this instance) banned.
When England was less tolerant, atrocities never happened, eh?
It is the tolerance of the society alone that can counter radicalisation. A divided society is a society that breeds warfare. It is an extremely simple principle.
Obviously even a tolerant society must mobilise in the face of imminent threat. A man with a flag is not the German Army invading Western Europe.
When England was less tolerant, atrocities never happened, eh?
It is the tolerance of the society alone that can counter radicalisation. A divided society is a society that breeds warfare. It is an extremely simple principle.
Obviously even a tolerant society must mobilise in the face of imminent threat. A man with a flag is not the German Army invading Western Europe.
And that is exactly where the Nazis started. With hate, Flags of hate and Emblems of hate. We should learn from history not repeat it.
When England was less tolerant, atrocities never happened, eh?
It is the tolerance of the society alone that can counter radicalisation. A divided society is a society that breeds warfare. It is an extremely simple principle.
Obviously even a tolerant society must mobilise in the face of imminent threat. A man with a flag is not the German Army invading Western Europe.
And that is exactly where the Nazis started. With hate, Flags of hate and Emblems of hate. We should learn from history not repeat it.
When England was less tolerant, atrocities never happened, eh?
It is the tolerance of the society alone that can counter radicalisation. A divided society is a society that breeds warfare. It is an extremely simple principle.
Obviously even a tolerant society must mobilise in the face of imminent threat. A man with a flag is not the German Army invading Western Europe.
I asume that living in this tolerant society you speak of, people respect those around em as these two things must go in hand in hand?
You can define carrying a flag or wearing a t-shirt or dressing a 4 year old up as a suicide bamber as "not an army invading Western Europe" all you like, but there's a lot of people in Western Europe (Including Muslims) that find doing so f*ckin offensive. And if me being offended by it means I'm not tolerant in your world, then so be it
People aren't protesting the flag itself though. It's what it represents. Carrying an ISIS flag in public is declaring support for the murderous terrorists and promoting their extremist views, and that should NOT be tolerated in society. Not because it's Islam, but because it's extremist and oppressive.
When England was less tolerant, atrocities never happened, eh?
It is the tolerance of the society alone that can counter radicalisation. A divided society is a society that breeds warfare. It is an extremely simple principle.
Obviously even a tolerant society must mobilise in the face of imminent threat. A man with a flag is not the German Army invading Western Europe.
And that is exactly where the Nazis started. With hate, Flags of hate and Emblems of hate. We should learn from history not repeat it.
The Nazi Swastika flag is banned in France because of events 70 years ago. If that law was relaxed and these flags started popping up in Paris, the general public would begin to feel less safe.
We are currently under attack from Islamic Extremists (to what extent is debatable but we are) and so any sign or flag supporting that ideology or hatred towards the west IN THE WEST should be made illegal.
When England was less tolerant, atrocities never happened, eh?
It is the tolerance of the society alone that can counter radicalisation. A divided society is a society that breeds warfare. It is an extremely simple principle.
Obviously even a tolerant society must mobilise in the face of imminent threat. A man with a flag is not the German Army invading Western Europe.
I asume that living in this tolerant society you speak of, people respect those around em as these two things must go in hand in hand?
You can define carrying a flag or wearing a t-shirt or dressing a 4 year old up as a suicide bamber as "not an army invading Western Europe" all you like, but there's a lot of people in Western Europe (Including Muslims) that find doing so f*ckin offensive. And if me being offended by it means I'm not tolerant in your world, then so be it
It is offensive and provocative. I think it's disgusting, even. ISIS are loathsome but they're a symptom of Islamic isolationism and sectarian hatred. In this country we need to ensure that neither of those things happen. We can make the man a pariah - some will say martyr. But what a coup it'd be if he came out and publicly renounced his views? A fantasy, sure, but it might pay to imagine how it might come about.
When England was less tolerant, atrocities never happened, eh?
It is the tolerance of the society alone that can counter radicalisation. A divided society is a society that breeds warfare. It is an extremely simple principle.
Obviously even a tolerant society must mobilise in the face of imminent threat. A man with a flag is not the German Army invading Western Europe.
And that is exactly where the Nazis started. With hate, Flags of hate and Emblems of hate. We should learn from history not repeat it.
Comparing ISIS with the rise of the Nazis is not a useful exercise.
The Nazis had the full weight of the German state behind them - the biggest and most powerful country in Europe - with an army millions strong with the best weapons in the world.
What does ISIS have? At best 200,000 troops scattered across multiple middle eastern countries with no Air Force, no Navy and no tanks or serious assault vehicles.
Let's keep the threat in perspective and not get it out of proportion, ISIS have taken advantage of the chaos caused by the Iraq war and the various regime collapses in the region to gain territory but they are hardly Putin's Russia.
Personally I believe that any British Citizen found to have been fighting for ISIS should face life imprisonment - if they have dual citizenship then their UK citizenship should be revoked immediately.
Be alert, not alarmed. I come back to London 2-3 times per year and don't think twice about using public transport - I will be bringing my wife and three kids back later in the year and we will take tubes, trains and buses everywhere and be proud to do so.
Both my grandfathers fought in WWII against fascists of a different stripe and they would turn in their graves if I showed even the slightest signs of fear over this bunch of socially retarded, fundamentalist, sexually frustrated motherfuckers.
The very thought that I would let this shower of cun-s influence my behaviour to even the smallest degree makes me retch, fuck them and their medieval bullshit, London is my home town and I'll do what the fuck I like when I am there, thanks all the same.
When England was less tolerant, atrocities never happened, eh?
It is the tolerance of the society alone that can counter radicalisation. A divided society is a society that breeds warfare. It is an extremely simple principle.
Obviously even a tolerant society must mobilise in the face of imminent threat. A man with a flag is not the German Army invading Western Europe.
And that is exactly where the Nazis started. With hate, Flags of hate and Emblems of hate. We should learn from history not repeat it.
No it's not!
Yes it is!
Your go.
Nazism didn't start with flags. It started with anti-Semitism, the idea of racially "pure" Aryans and white supremacy, which started in the early 19th century. The swastika flag wasn't adopted by the Nazi party until the mid-1920s, more than 100 years later. So no, the flag is *not* where the Nazis started.
When England was less tolerant, atrocities never happened, eh?
It is the tolerance of the society alone that can counter radicalisation. A divided society is a society that breeds warfare. It is an extremely simple principle.
Obviously even a tolerant society must mobilise in the face of imminent threat. A man with a flag is not the German Army invading Western Europe.
And that is exactly where the Nazis started. With hate, Flags of hate and Emblems of hate. We should learn from history not repeat it.
Comparing ISIS with the rise of the Nazis is not a useful exercise.
The Nazis had the full weight of the German state behind them - the biggest and most powerful country in Europe - with an army millions strong with the best weapons in the world.
What does ISIS have? At best 200,000 troops scattered across multiple middle eastern countries with no Air Force, no Navy and no tanks or serious assault vehicles.
Let's keep the threat in perspective and not get it out of proportion, ISIS have taken advantage of the chaos caused by the Iraq war and the various regime collapses in the region to gain territory but they are hardly Putin's Russia.
Personally I believe that any British Citizen found to have been fighting for ISIS should face life imprisonment - if they have dual citizenship then their UK citizenship should be revoked immediately.
Be alert, not alarmed. I come back to London 2-3 times per year and don't think twice about using public transport - I will be bringing my wife and three kids back later in the year and we will take tubes, trains and buses everywhere and be proud to do so.
Both my grandfathers fought in WWII against fascists of a different stripe and they would turn in their graves if I showed even the slightest signs of fear over this bunch of socially retarded, fundamentalist, sexually frustrated motherfuckers.
The very thought that I would let this shower of cun-s influence my behaviour to even the smallest degree makes me retch, fuck them and their medieval bullshit, London is my home town and I'll do what the fuck I like when I am there, thanks all the same.
Great post. I totally agree with almost every piece of it.
Chizz, how far, does your being comfortable, around ISIS flags extend ?
If you were on an emptyish, tube carriage and at the next station, the carriage filled up, with 100 people, all carrying ISIS flags, would you still feel comfortable ?
A Home Office spokesman said: “ISIS is a proscribed group. Showing signs you are a supporter of that group is an offence.
"It was an operational decision and we cannot comment on individual cases.”
---------------
I don't reckon it will be allowed to happen again though - the police are under pressure over it and I can't see the public being quite so tolerant next time.
Anyone who thinks it is OK because he meant no harm and should be allowed to show his support for anything he wants is frankly a prick, and an even bigger prick seeing as this is just 2 weeks after the events on the Tunisian beach.
Chizz, how far, does your being comfortable, around ISIS flags extend ?
If you were on an emptyish, tube carriage and at the next station, the carriage filled up, with 100 people, all carrying ISIS flags, would you still feel comfortable ?
..and then one of em got an orange boiler suit out a bag and said "Put this on"
Chizz, how far, does your being comfortable, around ISIS flags extend ?
If you were on an emptyish, tube carriage and at the next station, the carriage filled up, with 100 people, all carrying ISIS flags, would you still feel comfortable ?
It's a great question. And I have honestly lost count of the dozens and dozens of times it's happened in the past. To be clear, I am almost always less comfortable with people carrying weapons or being violent than waving flags.
Chizz, how far, does your being comfortable, around ISIS flags extend ?
If you were on an emptyish, tube carriage and at the next station, the carriage filled up, with 100 people, all carrying ISIS flags, would you still feel comfortable ?
It's a great question. And I have honestly lost count of the dozens and dozens of times it's happened in the past. To be clear, I am almost always less comfortable with people carrying weapons or being violent than waving flags.
And I would be less comfortable next to a murderer than someone with GBH on their record, still wouldn't wanna be round either though. Answer the question, would you feel comfortable around 100 people with ISIS flags?
When England was less tolerant, atrocities never happened, eh?
It is the tolerance of the society alone that can counter radicalisation. A divided society is a society that breeds warfare. It is an extremely simple principle.
Obviously even a tolerant society must mobilise in the face of imminent threat. A man with a flag is not the German Army invading Western Europe.
And that is exactly where the Nazis started. With hate, Flags of hate and Emblems of hate. We should learn from history not repeat it.
Comparing ISIS with the rise of the Nazis is not a useful exercise.
The Nazis had the full weight of the German state behind them - the biggest and most powerful country in Europe - with an army millions strong with the best weapons in the world.
What does ISIS have? At best 200,000 troops scattered across multiple middle eastern countries with no Air Force, no Navy and no tanks or serious assault vehicles.
Let's keep the threat in perspective and not get it out of proportion, ISIS have taken advantage of the chaos caused by the Iraq war and the various regime collapses in the region to gain territory but they are hardly Putin's Russia.
Personally I believe that any British Citizen found to have been fighting for ISIS should face life imprisonment - if they have dual citizenship then their UK citizenship should be revoked immediately.
Be alert, not alarmed. I come back to London 2-3 times per year and don't think twice about using public transport - I will be bringing my wife and three kids back later in the year and we will take tubes, trains and buses everywhere and be proud to do so.
Both my grandfathers fought in WWII against fascists of a different stripe and they would turn in their graves if I showed even the slightest signs of fear over this bunch of socially retarded, fundamentalist, sexually frustrated motherfuckers.
The very thought that I would let this shower of cun-s influence my behaviour to even the smallest degree makes me retch, fuck them and their medieval bullshit, London is my home town and I'll do what the fuck I like when I am there, thanks all the same.
Wrong, The Nazi party did not have the weight of the state behind them when they started in the late 20's early 30's. Hitler started his poison in small beer Cellars with just a hand full of followers, who started to believe him when he blamed the Jews for Germanys nosedive into near bankruptcy, when in fact it was the treaty of Versailles, signed at the end of WW1 that caused they economic meltdown. Hitler, what we now call radicalised, more and more people while still using the Jews as the bait for their hate. Change Hitler for ISIS leaders and the Jews for the modern western society and you will see how history repeats itself. Only three out of 10 ministers were members of the Nazi party, the Nazis had less than half the seats in the Reichstag, Hindenburg could have dismissed Hitler at any time. Hitler then came to power as Chancellor in January 1933, and immediately made himself Fuhrer, which meant he could not be deposed. Everyone else knows what happened next.......do forgive me for being concerned that a minor group (200,000) are seeking to annihilate the West. And, this isn't aimed at you Orm, yes it does start with a fucking flag of hate, and to ignore that fact is to look the other way which the West did in 1933, because we didn't want to upset the apple cart because we were trying to be tolerant of Germanys troubles. Do me a favour!
Chizz, how far, does your being comfortable, around ISIS flags extend ?
If you were on an emptyish, tube carriage and at the next station, the carriage filled up, with 100 people, all carrying ISIS flags, would you still feel comfortable ?
It's a great question. And I have honestly lost count of the dozens and dozens of times it's happened in the past. To be clear, I am almost always less comfortable with people carrying weapons or being violent than waving flags.
So you'll only begin to be concerned when they're walking through Whitehall with AK47s over their shoulders?
People accuse anyone waving a saint George's cross of being racist.. But it's ok to wave a isis flag ? I'm what most would consider a looney lefty... But i find this idea Rediculous.
Chizz, how far, does your being comfortable, around ISIS flags extend ?
If you were on an emptyish, tube carriage and at the next station, the carriage filled up, with 100 people, all carrying ISIS flags, would you still feel comfortable ?
It's a great question. And I have honestly lost count of the dozens and dozens of times it's happened in the past. To be clear, I am almost always less comfortable with people carrying weapons or being violent than waving flags.
If it's a great question, would you do me the courtesy, of answering it then, please ?
When England was less tolerant, atrocities never happened, eh?
It is the tolerance of the society alone that can counter radicalisation. A divided society is a society that breeds warfare. It is an extremely simple principle.
Obviously even a tolerant society must mobilise in the face of imminent threat. A man with a flag is not the German Army invading Western Europe.
And that is exactly where the Nazis started. With hate, Flags of hate and Emblems of hate. We should learn from history not repeat it.
No it's not!
Yes it is!
Your go.
Nazism didn't start with flags. It started with anti-Semitism, the idea of racially "pure" Aryans and white supremacy, which started in the early 19th century. The swastika flag wasn't adopted by the Nazi party until the mid-1920s, more than 100 years later. So no, the flag is *not* where the Nazis started.
The idea of racially pure.... vs The idea of religiously pure....
What's really the difference between
'Kill all niggers, gooks, chinks and pakis etc, basically anyone who is not a white' vs 'Kill all Christians, jews, hindus, sikhs etc, basically anyone who is not a muslim'
I apologise for those terms used as I despise racism and fascism.
This is a topic whereby people need to stop thinking ignoring the problem will make it go away.
All it does is bring the attacks closer to home all over again.
Smacks of the arrogant journos who go to Syria thinking they're slightly "above it" or expecting to get themselves out of it if they come into any bother, but wind up getting their noggins cut off on YouTube for their trouble.
Chizz, how far, does your being comfortable, around ISIS flags extend ?
If you were on an emptyish, tube carriage and at the next station, the carriage filled up, with 100 people, all carrying ISIS flags, would you still feel comfortable ?
It's a great question. And I have honestly lost count of the dozens and dozens of times it's happened in the past. To be clear, I am almost always less comfortable with people carrying weapons or being violent than waving flags.
If it's a great question, would you do me the courtesy, of answering it then, please ?
No. I would not feel comfortable if 100 people came on the tube carriage I was in, carrying ISIS flags. The total capacity of a six-carriage tube train is 665. It would be heaving.
Chizz, how far, does your being comfortable, around ISIS flags extend ?
If you were on an emptyish, tube carriage and at the next station, the carriage filled up, with 100 people, all carrying ISIS flags, would you still feel comfortable ?
It's a great question. And I have honestly lost count of the dozens and dozens of times it's happened in the past. To be clear, I am almost always less comfortable with people carrying weapons or being violent than waving flags.
If it's a great question, would you do me the courtesy, of answering it then, please ?
No. I would not feel comfortable if 100 people came on the tube carriage I was in, carrying ISIS flags. The total capacity of a six-carriage tube train is 665. It would be heaving.
What about the bit about the orange boiler suit then eh?
Comments
It is the tolerance of the society alone that can counter radicalisation. A divided society is a society that breeds warfare. It is an extremely simple principle.
Obviously even a tolerant society must mobilise in the face of imminent threat. A man with a flag is not the German Army invading Western Europe.
We should learn from history not repeat it.
I asume that living in this tolerant society you speak of, people respect those around em as these two things must go in hand in hand?
You can define carrying a flag or wearing a t-shirt or dressing a 4 year old up as a suicide bamber as "not an army invading Western Europe" all you like, but there's a lot of people in Western Europe (Including Muslims) that find doing so f*ckin offensive. And if me being offended by it means I'm not tolerant in your world, then so be it
Your go.
Geezer walking through Westminster in an ISIS flag and we're debating it; you can't make this up ffs
We are currently under attack from Islamic Extremists (to what extent is debatable but we are) and so any sign or flag supporting that ideology or hatred towards the west IN THE WEST should be made illegal.
The Nazis had the full weight of the German state behind them - the biggest and most powerful country in Europe - with an army millions strong with the best weapons in the world.
What does ISIS have? At best 200,000 troops scattered across multiple middle eastern countries with no Air Force, no Navy and no tanks or serious assault vehicles.
Let's keep the threat in perspective and not get it out of proportion, ISIS have taken advantage of the chaos caused by the Iraq war and the various regime collapses in the region to gain territory but they are hardly Putin's Russia.
Personally I believe that any British Citizen found to have been fighting for ISIS should face life imprisonment - if they have dual citizenship then their UK citizenship should be revoked immediately.
Be alert, not alarmed. I come back to London 2-3 times per year and don't think twice about using public transport - I will be bringing my wife and three kids back later in the year and we will take tubes, trains and buses everywhere and be proud to do so.
Both my grandfathers fought in WWII against fascists of a different stripe and they would turn in their graves if I showed even the slightest signs of fear over this bunch of socially retarded, fundamentalist, sexually frustrated motherfuckers.
The very thought that I would let this shower of cun-s influence my behaviour to even the smallest degree makes me retch, fuck them and their medieval bullshit, London is my home town and I'll do what the fuck I like when I am there, thanks all the same.
If you were on an emptyish, tube carriage and at the next station, the carriage filled up, with 100 people, all carrying ISIS flags, would you still feel comfortable ?
"It was an operational decision and we cannot comment on individual cases.”
---------------
I don't reckon it will be allowed to happen again though - the police are under pressure over it and I can't see the public being quite so tolerant next time.
Anyone who thinks it is OK because he meant no harm and should be allowed to show his support for anything he wants is frankly a prick, and an even bigger prick seeing as this is just 2 weeks after the events on the Tunisian beach.
Hitler, what we now call radicalised, more and more people while still using the Jews as the bait for their hate. Change Hitler for ISIS leaders and the Jews for the modern western society and you will see how history repeats itself.
Only three out of 10 ministers were members of the Nazi party, the Nazis had less than half the seats in the Reichstag, Hindenburg could have dismissed Hitler at any time. Hitler then came to power as Chancellor in January 1933, and immediately made himself Fuhrer, which meant he could not be deposed.
Everyone else knows what happened next.......do forgive me for being concerned that a minor group (200,000) are seeking to annihilate the West.
And, this isn't aimed at you Orm, yes it does start with a fucking flag of hate, and to ignore that fact is to look the other way which the West did in 1933, because we didn't want to upset the apple cart because we were trying to be tolerant of Germanys troubles.
Do me a favour!
vs
The idea of religiously pure....
What's really the difference between
'Kill all niggers, gooks, chinks and pakis etc, basically anyone who is not a white'
vs
'Kill all Christians, jews, hindus, sikhs etc, basically anyone who is not a muslim'
I apologise for those terms used as I despise racism and fascism.
This is a topic whereby people need to stop thinking ignoring the problem will make it go away.
All it does is bring the attacks closer to home all over again.
You're not bothered, if the streets of the UK, are filled with banner waving supporters of ISIS, paedos, rapists and murderers.
I'll beg to differ. This is not the sort of country I want to live in, because it does bother me.