Ten years on from 7/7 bombings.....Is London safer now than it was then?

Dazzler21

Chizz said:

Covered End said:

Chizz said:

Covered End said:

Chizz, how far, does your being comfortable, around ISIS flags extend ?

If you were on an emptyish, tube carriage and at the next station, the carriage filled up, with 100 people, all carrying ISIS flags, would you still feel comfortable ?

It's a great question. And I have honestly lost count of the dozens and dozens of times it's happened in the past. To be clear, I am almost always less comfortable with people carrying weapons or being violent than waving flags.

If it's a great question, would you do me the courtesy, of answering it then, please ?

No. I would not feel comfortable if 100 people came on the tube carriage I was in, carrying ISIS flags. The total capacity of a six-carriage tube train is 665. It would be heaving.

Well done, you've snagged us all Chizz



I'm leaving this thread as it's clear you are not willing to listen or understand why people fear this stuff.

Chizz

.

Dazzler21 said:

Chizz said:

Covered End said:

Chizz said:

Covered End said:

Chizz, how far, does your being comfortable, around ISIS flags extend ?

If you were on an emptyish, tube carriage and at the next station, the carriage filled up, with 100 people, all carrying ISIS flags, would you still feel comfortable ?

It's a great question. And I have honestly lost count of the dozens and dozens of times it's happened in the past. To be clear, I am almost always less comfortable with people carrying weapons or being violent than waving flags.

If it's a great question, would you do me the courtesy, of answering it then, please ?

No. I would not feel comfortable if 100 people came on the tube carriage I was in, carrying ISIS flags. The total capacity of a six-carriage tube train is 665. It would be heaving.

Well done, you've snagged us all Chizz



I'm leaving this thread as it's clear you are not willing to listen or understand why people fear this stuff.

I'm more than willing to listen. And I am trying to understand. But, in the great scheme of things, when atrocities have been committed in this great city, and when atrocities continue to take place around the world, why people should get worked up about a flag.

People find it "offensive". So what? No-one has the right not to be offended.

ValleyGary

A little bit of me suspects that if it was a minority being offended you would be all over it like a tramp on chips.

brogib

ValleyGary said:

A little bit of me suspects that if it was a minority being offended you would be all over it like a tramp on chips.

Spot on Gary

Chizz

ValleyGary said:

A little bit of me suspects that if it was a minority being offended you would be all over it like a tramp on chips.

What's top of your list of ways in which jihaddist terrorism can be defeated worldwide? Is it by funding middle eastern countries to build up anti-caliphate sentiment? Or targeted, precision drone bombing? Or building a coalition of governments working towards building hope and future for disenfranchised Muslims? Or a lan invasion or Iraq and Syria by a broad coalition of allies from the middle east and the west? Fund a full and far-reaching project of identifying and combatting radicalism?

Or is it to ban people waving certain flags in public?

Covered End

Chizz, my final question, if you answer it, as you didn't answer the last one.

If 50% of the population, walk around every day, with flags saying,

"I'm anti anyone that is black, brown, yellow, mixed race, gay, lesbian and bi sexual."

You would still be comfortable with that ?

thenewbie

Chizz said:

.

Dazzler21 said:

Chizz said:

Covered End said:

Chizz said:

Covered End said:

Chizz, how far, does your being comfortable, around ISIS flags extend ?

If you were on an emptyish, tube carriage and at the next station, the carriage filled up, with 100 people, all carrying ISIS flags, would you still feel comfortable ?

It's a great question. And I have honestly lost count of the dozens and dozens of times it's happened in the past. To be clear, I am almost always less comfortable with people carrying weapons or being violent than waving flags.

If it's a great question, would you do me the courtesy, of answering it then, please ?

No. I would not feel comfortable if 100 people came on the tube carriage I was in, carrying ISIS flags. The total capacity of a six-carriage tube train is 665. It would be heaving.

Well done, you've snagged us all Chizz



I'm leaving this thread as it's clear you are not willing to listen or understand why people fear this stuff.

I'm more than willing to listen. And I am trying to understand. But, in the great scheme of things, when atrocities have been committed in this great city, and when atrocities continue to take place around the world, why people should get worked up about a flag.

People find it "offensive". So what? No-one has the right not to be offended.

Because in carrying the flag, the man was very clearly and expressly supporting the perpetrators of those atrocities. By carrying the flag, he was saying he thinks those who commit the atrocities are correct to do so. That they are right. That innocent people (of all races and religions) SHOULD be blown apart, beheaded or shot or hacked apart with machetes on a street corner. That in a modern multicultural Britain were we SHOULD be able to treat each other as equals with different views, that a very small subset of extremist Muslims are correct to murder those who do not conform to their views.

If you honestly cannot see why so many people find that offensive then I despair. IT'S NOT THE FLAG that people are protesting. It' the fact that someone can visibly and clearly support a terrorist, extremist, evil organisation in the streets and not face any consequences for doing so. This isn't a rainbow flag. He's not supporting equality - the precise opposite in fact.

I am not offended because he follows different beliefs to me. I am offended because according to his beliefs, I am a lesser being and my death and those of pretty much everyone I know would be celebrated.

ValleyGary

Chizz said:

ValleyGary said:

A little bit of me suspects that if it was a minority being offended you would be all over it like a tramp on chips.

What's top of your list of ways in which jihaddist terrorism can be defeated worldwide? Is it by funding middle eastern countries to build up anti-caliphate sentiment? Or targeted, precision drone bombing? Or building a coalition of governments working towards building hope and future for disenfranchised Muslims? Or a lan invasion or Iraq and Syria by a broad coalition of allies from the middle east and the west? Fund a full and far-reaching project of identifying and combatting radicalism?

Or is it to ban people waving certain flags in public?

Errrmmmmm why does it have to be one or the other???

Chizz

ValleyGary said:

Chizz said:

ValleyGary said:

A little bit of me suspects that if it was a minority being offended you would be all over it like a tramp on chips.

What's top of your list of ways in which jihaddist terrorism can be defeated worldwide? Is it by funding middle eastern countries to build up anti-caliphate sentiment? Or targeted, precision drone bombing? Or building a coalition of governments working towards building hope and future for disenfranchised Muslims? Or a lan invasion or Iraq and Syria by a broad coalition of allies from the middle east and the west? Fund a full and far-reaching project of identifying and combatting radicalism?

Or is it to ban people waving certain flags in public?

Errrmmmmm why does it have to be one or the other???

"Top".

PL54

Chizz said:

ValleyGary said:

A little bit of me suspects that if it was a minority being offended you would be all over it like a tramp on chips.

Or a lan invasion or Iraq and Syria by a broad coalition of allies from the middle east and the west?

Who is Ian ? Is he a friend of yours ?

Chizz

Covered End said:

Chizz, my final question, if you answer it, as you didn't answer the last one.

If 50% of the population, walk around every day, with flags saying,

"I'm anti anyone that is black, brown, yellow, mixed race, gay, lesbian and bi sexual."

You would still be comfortable with that ?

I did answer that last one. And I will answer this one. I wouldn't care about the flags; I would care about the message.

If someone hates another person because of their race, colour, religion or sexual orientation, they're an idiot and they have my pity. That's all. If they preach hate or encourage similar views in others, they're a criminal, and should be dealt with.

I wouldn't get worked up about the flag.

I hope you can see the difference.

ValleyGary

Chizz said:

ValleyGary said:

Chizz said:

ValleyGary said:

A little bit of me suspects that if it was a minority being offended you would be all over it like a tramp on chips.

What's top of your list of ways in which jihaddist terrorism can be defeated worldwide? Is it by funding middle eastern countries to build up anti-caliphate sentiment? Or targeted, precision drone bombing? Or building a coalition of governments working towards building hope and future for disenfranchised Muslims? Or a lan invasion or Iraq and Syria by a broad coalition of allies from the middle east and the west? Fund a full and far-reaching project of identifying and combatting radicalism?

Or is it to ban people waving certain flags in public?

Errrmmmmm why does it have to be one or the other???

"Top".

Yeah of course I'd prefer all the things you list, I still don't see why that should take away from the fact that carrying an IS flag in London, should be made a criminal offence or at least give the police some sort of power to ask for it to be removed. It's not a difficult law to pass and one that would make the feeling on our streets safer. The things you list require extreme preparation and sensitivity.

In no way to I think the banning of the IS flag will defeat worldwide jihadist terrorism as you suggest. It will however make a large percentage of the citizens of this country feel safer. That's the point.

brogib

Chizz said:

Covered End said:

Chizz, my final question, if you answer it, as you didn't answer the last one.

If 50% of the population, walk around every day, with flags saying,

"I'm anti anyone that is black, brown, yellow, mixed race, gay, lesbian and bi sexual."

You would still be comfortable with that ?

I did answer that last one. And I will answer this one. I wouldn't care about the flags; I would care about the message.

If someone hates another person because of their race, colour, religion or sexual orientation, they're an idiot and they have my pity. That's all. If they preach hate or encourage similar views in others, they're a criminal, and should be dealt with.

I wouldn't get worked up about the flag.

I hope you can see the difference.

See matey with that ISIS flag over his shoulders, he thinks all of the above and the flag stands for exactly that and more

Greenie

Chizz, I don't know what you do for a living, but should you be called, would you fight for our country?

thenewbie

Chizz said:

Covered End said:

Chizz, my final question, if you answer it, as you didn't answer the last one.

If 50% of the population, walk around every day, with flags saying,

"I'm anti anyone that is black, brown, yellow, mixed race, gay, lesbian and bi sexual."

You would still be comfortable with that ?

I did answer that last one. And I will answer this one. I wouldn't care about the flags; I would care about the message.

If someone hates another person because of their race, colour, religion or sexual orientation, they're an idiot and they have my pity. That's all. If they preach hate or encourage similar views in others, they're a criminal, and should be dealt with.

I wouldn't get worked up about the flag.

I hope you can see the difference.

Not really. This isn't a flag in support of Islam in general, it's in support of ISIS specifically. A terrorist organisation with countless deaths and other crimes to their names. Carrying such a flag IS preaching hatred, by actions not words. By your own definition, he was criminal, surely?

LenGlover

Just out of interest Chizz what's your take on Orangemen parading with flags in Northern Ireland?

Chizz

brogib said:

Chizz said:

Covered End said:

Chizz, my final question, if you answer it, as you didn't answer the last one.

If 50% of the population, walk around every day, with flags saying,

"I'm anti anyone that is black, brown, yellow, mixed race, gay, lesbian and bi sexual."

You would still be comfortable with that ?

I did answer that last one. And I will answer this one. I wouldn't care about the flags; I would care about the message.

If someone hates another person because of their race, colour, religion or sexual orientation, they're an idiot and they have my pity. That's all. If they preach hate or encourage similar views in others, they're a criminal, and should be dealt with.

I wouldn't get worked up about the flag.

I hope you can see the difference.

See matey with that ISIS flag over his shoulders, he thinks all of the above and the flag stands for exactly that and more

I think you've just got my point.

Chizz

thenewbie said:

Chizz said:

Covered End said:

Chizz, my final question, if you answer it, as you didn't answer the last one.

If 50% of the population, walk around every day, with flags saying,

"I'm anti anyone that is black, brown, yellow, mixed race, gay, lesbian and bi sexual."

You would still be comfortable with that ?

I did answer that last one. And I will answer this one. I wouldn't care about the flags; I would care about the message.

If someone hates another person because of their race, colour, religion or sexual orientation, they're an idiot and they have my pity. That's all. If they preach hate or encourage similar views in others, they're a criminal, and should be dealt with.

I wouldn't get worked up about the flag.

I hope you can see the difference.

Not really. This isn't a flag in support of Islam in general, it's in support of ISIS specifically. A terrorist organisation with countless deaths and other crimes to their names. Carrying such a flag IS preaching hatred, by actions not words. By your own definition, he was criminal, surely?

It's as simple as this: if he's preaching hatred, arrest him, charge him, convict him, lock him up. If he's not, then don't.

Chizz

LenGlover said:

Just out of interest Chizz what's your take on Orangemen parading with flags in Northern Ireland?

As I am not an Orangman, nor do I live in Northern Ireland, I don't spend much time thinking about it. Do you have a view?

Leuth

Why on earth would you want to ban something that outs counter-terrorism targets to the police?

LenGlover

Chizz said:

LenGlover said:

Just out of interest Chizz what's your take on Orangemen parading with flags in Northern Ireland?

As I am not an Orangman, nor do I live in Northern Ireland, I don't spend much time thinking about it. Do you have a view?

I asked you as you are the one effectively saying it's just a flag.

Leuth

And outs bad apples to the Islamic community?

Red_in_SE8

Ormiston Addick said:

Greenie said:

Leuth said:

When England was less tolerant, atrocities never happened, eh?

It is the tolerance of the society alone that can counter radicalisation. A divided society is a society that breeds warfare. It is an extremely simple principle.

Obviously even a tolerant society must mobilise in the face of imminent threat. A man with a flag is not the German Army invading Western Europe.

...................

And that is exactly where the Nazis started. With hate, Flags of hate and Emblems of hate.
We should learn from history not repeat it.

.......................

What does ISIS have? At best 200,000 troops scattered across multiple middle eastern countries with no Air Force, no Navy and no tanks or serious assault vehicles.

They don't have 200,000 troops. They have 200,000 fanatics who are actively looking to die for their stupid medieval religious beliefs. The fact that they are looking to die is one of the main reasons why, in their previous guises, they have been able to hold their own against the heavily armed and highly trained troops of the US and its allies.

Plus, these 200,000 troops are backed up by 1.6 billion Muslims around the world. This war against this stone age belief system has been going on for at least 15 years now. I have seen absolutely no evidence that the vast majority of the Muslim world are opposed to the on going attempt to spread the influence of this sick and disgusting religion. What I do see evidence of is the way modern mass communications and social media has allowed the semi literate, poorly educated masses from around the globe that form the bulk of the followers of this religion, to connect with each other and find a sense of purpose and shared resentment at the modern secular world.

London, and all modern secular societies around the world are not under attack from a few islamic extremists. They are under attack from what is in effect the new Islamic world.

I feel less safe in London than I did 10 years ago. I see no evidence that the hatred that the new Islamic World has for me and everything I stand for has dimmed. It is insanely stupid to invoke a mythical Londoner's 'blitz carry on as normal spirit' in the light of this threat. It is completely different.

Friend Or Defoe

Yes.

Chizz

.

LenGlover said:

Chizz said:

LenGlover said:

Just out of interest Chizz what's your take on Orangemen parading with flags in Northern Ireland?

As I am not an Orangman, nor do I live in Northern Ireland, I don't spend much time thinking about it. Do you have a view?

I asked you as you are the one effectively saying it's just a flag.

I don't have a view. And it's not so relevant to a thread on the threats of safety in London.

Chizz

Leuth said:

Why on earth would you want to ban something that outs counter-terrorism targets to the police?

This is the sub-text of my view. If you are moronic enough to have jihaddist views, *and* you are moronic enough to advertise them to the public, the police and counter-terrorists by waving a flag to declare your support, you become pretty easy to neutralise.

brogib

Chizz said:

Leuth said:

Why on earth would you want to ban something that outs counter-terrorism targets to the police?

This is the sub-text of my view. If you are moronic enough to have jihaddist views, *and* you are moronic enough to advertise them to the public, the police and counter-terrorists by waving a flag to declare your support, you become pretty easy to neutralise.

Cor, nicely done Chizz, great get out

seth plum

On a personal level people react to the flag in a variety of ways, on a legal level the law allows it. It would be great if it really was 'no big deal', but on the level of current reality for many it is a big deal.
I have a great deal of sympathy with Chizz's point of view, but I feel that in current circumstances the ideal view is overtaken by the phenomenology, by that it means that in this day and age the flag is provocative and outrageous to many people, and there will be a reaction whether it is right or wrong. If we ignore the current reality it is basically an ignorant response. Our world has altered somewhat, and to recognise that might be a first step towards healing,

ValleyGary

Chizz said:

Leuth said:

Why on earth would you want to ban something that outs counter-terrorism targets to the police?

This is the sub-text of my view. If you are moronic enough to have jihaddist views, *and* you are moronic enough to advertise them to the public, the police and counter-terrorists by waving a flag to declare your support, you become pretty easy to neutralise.

Very one dimensional way of thinking. Yep we can monitor the bloke now (which more than likely we were already doing) but who gives a fuck about the hundreds of people he's worried/intimidated by walking through the countries capital with an IS flag wrapped around him.

DaveMehmet

seth plum said:

On a personal level people react to the flag in a variety of ways, on a legal level the law allows it. It would be great if it really was 'no big deal', but on the level of current reality for many it is a big deal.
I have a great deal of sympathy with Chizz's point of view, but I feel that in current circumstances the ideal view is overtaken by the phenomenology, by that it means that in this day and age the flag is provocative and outrageous to many people, and there will be a reaction whether it is right or wrong. If we ignore the current reality it is basically an ignorant response. Our world has altered somewhat, and to recognise that might be a first step towards healing,

Try saying that after a couple of beers