I heard on the wireless yesterday that Turkey has been obliged to take in TWO MILLION refugees, and that other countries in Europe have taken a lot in. At Calais/Dover there is the obvious bottleneck in terms of travel and as such it is framing the problem in a very televisual and media attractive way. In terms of bald numbers though the UK has had less than other countries. Violence and intimidation of lorry drivers and other workers is totally unacceptable, and if the authorities don't step in then people will take the law into their own hands which will inevitably exacerbate the problem. There is a solution, I don't think that NLA's bullet in the head as a deterrent is it though. For that to work presumably there would need to be witnesses to the shooting in order for those people to be deterred. Shooting all of the people in Calais would also be a solution, as when they're dead they can't try to get across the channel or intimidate drivers and travellers, but I don't see shooting everybody working myself because international reaction to such murder, barbarity and genocide would have consequences. The hard miles have to be walked on this one, and if there is blame it is against the authorities on all sides who have washed their hands of it all hoping somehow it will just go away. more police and better and higher fences will work temporarily, but long term a different solution needs to be found. Kenofbexley has called it right on this one, a sad and sorry state of affairs.
The main consequence would be that they would, presumably, all give up trying to come here.
The sad truth, however, is that if we didn't have so many people in the UK that refuse to do the kind of work that these immigrants are travelling thousand of miles to do then there would be no work for them when they get here so they would go elsewhere.
Back on topic though, I think the immigration is a side issue, it's the French carrying out industrial action, and vandalism that are causing the traffic issues. I would think we deal with that first as a priority as I'm not sure the patience of the Kent residents can be tested much more before they start to take matters into their own hands with even worse consequences.
Kent to declare war on France ?
To be fair I know who my money would be on !
I really worry that we (as a nation) are starting to lose the humanity in all of this. Anyone suggesting that a reasonable response to this is to start shooting people should be ashamed of themselves.
I'm not sure I agree with shooting people, but what can we do? I'm not sure I'd be against electric fences.
I heard on the wireless yesterday that Turkey has been obliged to take in TWO MILLION refugees, and that other countries in Europe have taken a lot in. At Calais/Dover there is the obvious bottleneck in terms of travel and as such it is framing the problem in a very televisual and media attractive way. In terms of bald numbers though the UK has had less than other countries. Violence and intimidation of lorry drivers and other workers is totally unacceptable, and if the authorities don't step in then people will take the law into their own hands which will inevitably exacerbate the problem. There is a solution, I don't think that NLA's bullet in the head as a deterrent is it though. For that to work presumably there would need to be witnesses to the shooting in order for those people to be deterred. Shooting all of the people in Calais would also be a solution, as when they're dead they can't try to get across the channel or intimidate drivers and travellers, but I don't see shooting everybody working myself because international reaction to such murder, barbarity and genocide would have consequences. The hard miles have to be walked on this one, and if there is blame it is against the authorities on all sides who have washed their hands of it all hoping somehow it will just go away. more police and better and higher fences will work temporarily, but long term a different solution needs to be found. Kenofbexley has called it right on this one, a sad and sorry state of affairs.
The main consequence would be that they would, presumably, all give up trying to come here.
The sad truth, however, is that if we didn't have so many people in the UK that refuse to do the kind of work that these immigrants are travelling thousand of miles to do then there would be no work for them when they get here so they would go elsewhere.
Back on topic though, I think the immigration is a side issue, it's the French carrying out industrial action, and vandalism that are causing the traffic issues. I would think we deal with that first as a priority as I'm not sure the patience of the Kent residents can be tested much more before they start to take matters into their own hands with even worse consequences.
Kent to declare war on France ?
To be fair I know who my money would be on !
I really worry that we (as a nation) are starting to lose the humanity in all of this. Anyone suggesting that a reasonable response to this is to start shooting people should be ashamed of themselves.
I'm not sure I agree with shooting people, but what can we do? I'm not sure I'd be against electric fences.
Things like fences and/or deploying the army either at the ports, tunnel and border here in the UK or on the French (isn't the UK border technically in Calais?) side might work as short term deterrents but surely we have to ask why these people are coming ? That answer isn't as simple as "to ponce off us" and the solution is far longer term and would require us to accept our responsibility to help foster stability in the regions that these people come from.
I heard on the wireless yesterday that Turkey has been obliged to take in TWO MILLION refugees, and that other countries in Europe have taken a lot in. At Calais/Dover there is the obvious bottleneck in terms of travel and as such it is framing the problem in a very televisual and media attractive way. In terms of bald numbers though the UK has had less than other countries. Violence and intimidation of lorry drivers and other workers is totally unacceptable, and if the authorities don't step in then people will take the law into their own hands which will inevitably exacerbate the problem. There is a solution, I don't think that NLA's bullet in the head as a deterrent is it though. For that to work presumably there would need to be witnesses to the shooting in order for those people to be deterred. Shooting all of the people in Calais would also be a solution, as when they're dead they can't try to get across the channel or intimidate drivers and travellers, but I don't see shooting everybody working myself because international reaction to such murder, barbarity and genocide would have consequences. The hard miles have to be walked on this one, and if there is blame it is against the authorities on all sides who have washed their hands of it all hoping somehow it will just go away. more police and better and higher fences will work temporarily, but long term a different solution needs to be found. Kenofbexley has called it right on this one, a sad and sorry state of affairs.
The main consequence would be that they would, presumably, all give up trying to come here.
The sad truth, however, is that if we didn't have so many people in the UK that refuse to do the kind of work that these immigrants are travelling thousand of miles to do then there would be no work for them when they get here so they would go elsewhere.
Back on topic though, I think the immigration is a side issue, it's the French carrying out industrial action, and vandalism that are causing the traffic issues. I would think we deal with that first as a priority as I'm not sure the patience of the Kent residents can be tested much more before they start to take matters into their own hands with even worse consequences.
Some would say that if the French workers are taking industrial action, then use the desperate people homeless in Calais to do the work (probably more cheaply) that the French workers are striking over...problem solved, and market forces at it's best!
I am impressed with how effective the French industrial action usually always is, and less people on this thread have been focussing on that, than on the actions of the people trying to get across the sea.
Maybe the 7 million spent on fencing could be paid to the French workers instead to call off their action, but others would say that will only encourage more industrial action in the future when they see how effective it is. People will also say if the migrants make it, it will encourage more in the future.
Isn't the whole shebang a glorious unregulated market like the stock exchange, and actually an example of capitalism, with natural economic forces ebbing and flowing? If the workers can exert the power why not, if the migrants get in why not?
Of course if the workers powers are curtailed, and the migrants movement restricted, it would need some kind of government control and some kind of thought through action, but at the moment all the forces at play are finding their own natural level.
Just shoot them a few will die then the word will get around not to attempt it, won't be the worst outcome to the issue
Just as well they didn't bring that in for people fighting at football and elsewhere in the 90s. Few rounds in the head would have stopped all the others.
Could do the same for speeding. 10 miles over the speed limit and a marksman wacks you in the fast lane.
I find it very ironic that something which would have potentially helped deter or help root out illegal immigrants was scrapped by Cameron i.e ID cards. I bet he wishes he had kept the programme going now.
Local news. The number of illegal immigrant kids that Kent has to look after has doubled in 3 months ! and will cost at least £5million. some reports saying that numbers at the camp in Calais appear to be falling --this after May refused to say how many had got through in the last few days !!
Call me Dave says England/France co-operation is going well---this is his "crisis ? what crisis moment"
Even Surrey Plod say they detained 150 in the last couple of months.
As Rob says look after your own--England is finished. In less than 10 years it will be a group of regions---with no actual English identity or culture(what ever that is).
Local news. The number of illegal immigrant kids that Kent has to look after has doubled in 3 months ! and will cost at least £5million. some reports saying that numbers at the camp in Calais appear to be falling --this after May refused to say how many had got through in the last few days !!
Call me Dave says England/France co-operation is going well---this is his "crisis ? what crisis moment"
Even Surrey Plod say they detained 150 in the last couple of months.
As Rob says look after your own--England is finished. In less than 10 years it will be a group of regions---with no actual English identity or culture(what ever that is).
England's in better shape than it has been for a decade.
It's a reasonable solution to.the problem , they are not in need of help or assistance they are there because they want to come over the border and ponce off of us , if they want to risk getting shot if they do attempt to cross it's their own problem
Like NLA I travel through Calais weekly and have seen the situation change in recent months, what is now very obvious is that the migrants are almost entirely aged 20/30 wearing named trainers, many have mobile phones are getting more and more audacious/threatening in their behaviour, this is through confidence not desperation of that I am certain.
I had the (mis)fortune of seeing refugees/victims of war at close hand when acting as an aid worker in Jaffna, Sri Lanka in the 90's and the vast majority of those at Calais are neither wartorn or desperate.
I do not have the answers but have witnessed them throwing stones at coach Windows and trying to storm on board when the driver slows down, damage vehicles and threaten drivers and it is only a matter of time before they escalate violence further.
The ferry is now fairly safe and secure since the fences have gone up and that has pushed them to the tunnel, once that is secured then they will have to think again and I suspect we will see the first home made boats trying to cross the channel before the end of the year.
I came through the tunnel today and return to the UK tomorrow, I had no delay so far and St Triuden was fairly event free the other week as well, it's definitely the commuters/residents of Kent that are most inconvenienced with Op Stack, travelling to and from France has been ok.
Anyway no answers but just trying to give an insider's view.
Lastly 2 Royal Ghurka Rifles who are at Folkestone performed a not unsimilar border securing role very successfully in Hong Kong for decades without having to shoot everyone so they may not be as far fetched and idea as it first seems.
I heard on the wireless yesterday that Turkey has been obliged to take in TWO MILLION refugees, and that other countries in Europe have taken a lot in. At Calais/Dover there is the obvious bottleneck in terms of travel and as such it is framing the problem in a very televisual and media attractive way. In terms of bald numbers though the UK has had less than other countries. Violence and intimidation of lorry drivers and other workers is totally unacceptable, and if the authorities don't step in then people will take the law into their own hands which will inevitably exacerbate the problem. There is a solution, I don't think that NLA's bullet in the head as a deterrent is it though. For that to work presumably there would need to be witnesses to the shooting in order for those people to be deterred. Shooting all of the people in Calais would also be a solution, as when they're dead they can't try to get across the channel or intimidate drivers and travellers, but I don't see shooting everybody working myself because international reaction to such murder, barbarity and genocide would have consequences. The hard miles have to be walked on this one, and if there is blame it is against the authorities on all sides who have washed their hands of it all hoping somehow it will just go away. more police and better and higher fences will work temporarily, but long term a different solution needs to be found. Kenofbexley has called it right on this one, a sad and sorry state of affairs.
The main consequence would be that they would, presumably, all give up trying to come here.
The sad truth, however, is that if we didn't have so many people in the UK that refuse to do the kind of work that these immigrants are travelling thousand of miles to do then there would be no work for them when they get here so they would go elsewhere.
Back on topic though, I think the immigration is a side issue, it's the French carrying out industrial action, and vandalism that are causing the traffic issues. I would think we deal with that first as a priority as I'm not sure the patience of the Kent residents can be tested much more before they start to take matters into their own hands with even worse consequences.
Kent to declare war on France ?
To be fair I know who my money would be on !
I really worry that we (as a nation) are starting to lose the humanity in all of this. Anyone suggesting that a reasonable response to this is to start shooting people should be ashamed of themselves.
I'm not sure I agree with shooting people, but what can we do? I'm not sure I'd be against electric fences.
Things like fences and/or deploying the army either at the ports, tunnel and border here in the UK or on the French (isn't the UK border technically in Calais?) side might work as short term deterrents but surely we have to ask why these people are coming ? That answer isn't as simple as "to ponce off us" and the solution is far longer term and would require us to accept our responsibility to help foster stability in the regions that these people come from.
Is it our responsibility to fix these regions? Is it even possible?
For some reason the situation has made me think of these Pink Floyd lyrics.
Us and Them And after all we're only ordinary men Me, and you God only knows it's not what we would choose to do Forward he cried from the rear and the front rank died And the General sat, as the lines on the map moved from side to side Black and Blue And who knows which is which and who is who Up and Down And in the end it's only round and round and round Haven't you heard it's a battle of words the poster bearer cried Listen son, said the man with the gun There's room for you inside
"Well I mean, they're gonna kill ya, so like, if you give 'em a quick sh...short, sharp shock, they don't do it again. Dig it? I mean he got off light, 'cause I coulda given 'I'm a thrashin' but I only hit him once. It's only the difference between right and wrong innit? I mean good manners don't cost nothing do they, eh?"
Down and Out It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about With, without And who'll deny that's what the fightings all about Get out of the way, it's a busy day And I've got things on my mind For want of the price of tea and a slice The old man died
Just shoot them a few will die then the word will get around not to attempt it
Quality mate , why do governments sit Around talking all f--king day long , send the army in let them know who's in charge and they will soon get the message , yes mate you are right they are ponces they have no morals at all .
I heard on the wireless yesterday that Turkey has been obliged to take in TWO MILLION refugees, and that other countries in Europe have taken a lot in. At Calais/Dover there is the obvious bottleneck in terms of travel and as such it is framing the problem in a very televisual and media attractive way. In terms of bald numbers though the UK has had less than other countries. Violence and intimidation of lorry drivers and other workers is totally unacceptable, and if the authorities don't step in then people will take the law into their own hands which will inevitably exacerbate the problem. There is a solution, I don't think that NLA's bullet in the head as a deterrent is it though. For that to work presumably there would need to be witnesses to the shooting in order for those people to be deterred. Shooting all of the people in Calais would also be a solution, as when they're dead they can't try to get across the channel or intimidate drivers and travellers, but I don't see shooting everybody working myself because international reaction to such murder, barbarity and genocide would have consequences. The hard miles have to be walked on this one, and if there is blame it is against the authorities on all sides who have washed their hands of it all hoping somehow it will just go away. more police and better and higher fences will work temporarily, but long term a different solution needs to be found. Kenofbexley has called it right on this one, a sad and sorry state of affairs.
The main consequence would be that they would, presumably, all give up trying to come here.
The sad truth, however, is that if we didn't have so many people in the UK that refuse to do the kind of work that these immigrants are travelling thousand of miles to do then there would be no work for them when they get here so they would go elsewhere.
Back on topic though, I think the immigration is a side issue, it's the French carrying out industrial action, and vandalism that are causing the traffic issues. I would think we deal with that first as a priority as I'm not sure the patience of the Kent residents can be tested much more before they start to take matters into their own hands with even worse consequences.
Kent to declare war on France ?
To be fair I know who my money would be on !
I really worry that we (as a nation) are starting to lose the humanity in all of this. Anyone suggesting that a reasonable response to this is to start shooting people should be ashamed of themselves.
I'm not sure I agree with shooting people, but what can we do? I'm not sure I'd be against electric fences.
Things like fences and/or deploying the army either at the ports, tunnel and border here in the UK or on the French (isn't the UK border technically in Calais?) side might work as short term deterrents but surely we have to ask why these people are coming ? That answer isn't as simple as "to ponce off us" and the solution is far longer term and would require us to accept our responsibility to help foster stability in the regions that these people come from.
That's all very well but shooting them would be much more fun. That and planting some land mines, it could be a new reality show.
People need to separate those that are desperately trying to flee and save their lives and that of loved ones against persecution and death , with a group of organised oliver twists with knives and a big cheese Fagan,
Those as verified above by someone else who has to endure their antics quite often, are no more in need of help than myself , the difference being I work hard pay my taxes and find an honest way to survive, they chose to attack threaten and robb people in order to do theirs,
When they break the windscreen wipers or just pull them forward they do so , so you will exit the vehicle and they can Try their luck, I lit a flame from the wd40 can when they cam alongside my window and aimed it at the first one who fancied trying my door he knew I was as serious about burning his eyeballs as he was opening my door , it didn't stop the others shaking the van hitting the doors and showing me they have knives,
They moved on but as we were grid locked we went no where they were on the roof of the van they dented the cab roof and it was only because we moved around 500 mtrs they jumped off ,
The actions of desperate migrants begging for help or the actions of criminals who know only one detterant and that's violence or aggression from the security services or army ,
I am serious take full and swift action and if that means a few get shot so what
People need to separate those that are desperately trying to flee and save their lives and that of loved ones against persecution and death , with a group of organised oliver twists with knives and a big cheese Fagan,
Those as verified above by someone else who has to endure their antics quite often, are no more in need of help than myself , the difference being I work hard pay my taxes and find an honest way to survive, they chose to attack threaten and robb people in order to do theirs,
When they break the windscreen wipers or just pull them forward they do so , so you will exit the vehicle and they can Try their luck, I lit a flame from the wd40 can when they cam alongside my window and aimed it at the first one who fancied trying my door he knew I was as serious about burning his eyeballs as he was opening my door , it didn't stop the others shaking the van hitting the doors and showing me they have knives,
They moved on but as we were grid locked we went no where they were on the roof of the van they dented the cab roof and it was only because we moved around 500 mtrs they jumped off ,
The actions of desperate migrants begging for help or the actions of criminals who know only one detterant and that's violence or aggression from the security services or army ,
I am serious take full and swift action and if that means a few get shot so what
At which point do we pause our "full and swift action" to "separate those that are desperately trying to flee and save their lives and that of loved ones against persecution and death , with a group of organised oliver twists with knives and a big cheese Fagan..." - before or after we've pulled the trigger ?
Comments
I am impressed with how effective the French industrial action usually always is, and less people on this thread have been focussing on that, than on the actions of the people trying to get across the sea.
Maybe the 7 million spent on fencing could be paid to the French workers instead to call off their action, but others would say that will only encourage more industrial action in the future when they see how effective it is. People will also say if the migrants make it, it will encourage more in the future.
Isn't the whole shebang a glorious unregulated market like the stock exchange, and actually an example of capitalism, with natural economic forces ebbing and flowing?
If the workers can exert the power why not, if the migrants get in why not?
Of course if the workers powers are curtailed, and the migrants movement restricted, it would need some kind of government control and some kind of thought through action, but at the moment all the forces at play are finding their own natural level.
Could do the same for speeding. 10 miles over the speed limit and a marksman wacks you in the fast lane.
Just to show I'm not totally callous
VAT late, knee capping
Drop litter = castration
The number of illegal immigrant kids that Kent has to look after has doubled in 3 months ! and will cost at least £5million.
some reports saying that numbers at the camp in Calais appear to be falling --this after May refused to say how many had got through in the last few days !!
Call me Dave says England/France co-operation is going well---this is his "crisis ? what crisis moment"
Even Surrey Plod say they detained 150 in the last couple of months.
As Rob says look after your own--England is finished. In less than 10 years it will be a group of regions---with no actual English identity or culture(what ever that is).
I had the (mis)fortune of seeing refugees/victims of war at close hand when acting as an aid worker in Jaffna, Sri Lanka in the 90's and the vast majority of those at Calais are neither wartorn or desperate.
I do not have the answers but have witnessed them throwing stones at coach Windows and trying to storm on board when the driver slows down, damage vehicles and threaten drivers and it is only a matter of time before they escalate violence further.
The ferry is now fairly safe and secure since the fences have gone up and that has pushed them to the tunnel, once that is secured then they will have to think again and I suspect we will see the first home made boats trying to cross the channel before the end of the year.
I came through the tunnel today and return to the UK tomorrow, I had no delay so far and St Triuden was fairly event free the other week as well, it's definitely the commuters/residents of Kent that are most inconvenienced with Op Stack, travelling to and from France has been ok.
Anyway no answers but just trying to give an insider's view.
Lastly 2 Royal Ghurka Rifles who are at Folkestone performed a not unsimilar border securing role very successfully in Hong Kong for decades without having to shoot everyone so they may not be as far fetched and idea as it first seems.
Us and Them
And after all we're only ordinary men
Me, and you
God only knows it's not what we would choose to do
Forward he cried from the rear
and the front rank died
And the General sat, as the lines on the map
moved from side to side
Black and Blue
And who knows which is which and who is who
Up and Down
And in the end it's only round and round and round
Haven't you heard it's a battle of words
the poster bearer cried
Listen son, said the man with the gun
There's room for you inside
"Well I mean, they're gonna kill ya, so like, if you give 'em a quick sh...short, sharp shock, they don't do it again.
Dig it? I mean he got off light, 'cause I coulda given 'I'm a thrashin' but I only hit him once.
It's only the difference between right and wrong innit? I mean good manners don't cost nothing do they, eh?"
Down and Out
It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about
With, without
And who'll deny that's what the fightings all about
Get out of the way, it's a busy day
And I've got things on my mind
For want of the price of tea and a slice
The old man died
That and planting some land mines, it could be a new reality show.
It could be called "Boom or Bust"!
Those as verified above by someone else who has to endure their antics quite often, are no more in need of help than myself , the difference being I work hard pay my taxes and find an honest way to survive, they chose to attack threaten and robb people in order to do theirs,
When they break the windscreen wipers or just pull them forward they do so , so you will exit the vehicle and they can Try their luck, I lit a flame from the wd40 can when they cam alongside my window and aimed it at the first one who fancied trying my door he knew I was as serious about burning his eyeballs as he was opening my door , it didn't stop the others shaking the van hitting the doors and showing me they have knives,
They moved on but as we were grid locked we went no where they were on the roof of the van they dented the cab roof and it was only because we moved around 500 mtrs they jumped off ,
The actions of desperate migrants begging for help or the actions of criminals who know only one detterant and that's violence or aggression from the security services or army ,
I am serious take full and swift action and if that means a few get shot so what