I still don't get why they deserve our sympathy. These are criminals trying to illegally enter my country. They are not fleeing harm. They are in a safe country already. They are fleeing to,not fleeing from.
I don't wish to get drawn into a pointless debate. If you can't see why they deserve our sympathy then nothing I say will change your opinion.
As long as you have the essentials sorted, then life in Calais as an economic migrant isn't too bad.
Are they A3? How the f*ck are they getting 3G, I'm struggling and I only had the phone 4 days
I knew I would get flack but the lack of empathy with fellow humans is breathtaking. The criminals and scroungers wanting to breach our walls have in the vast majority of cases walked from war torn Africa and Middle East. How desperate must they be to even consider such a journey with no money food or idea of outcome. If that alone doesn't attract some sympathy with their plight then I'm saddened.
Previously on this thread when Kentred waffled on about us having an obligation to take these refugees in I made him/her an offer that I would drive some of the refugees round to him/her so he/she could take them in. Surprisingly I never heard anymore.
So I'll make the same offer to you. Give us your address and I'll drop some of these poor people round to you for you to look after. Doesn't matter if you haven't got a spare room, I'm sure they'll be happy to sleep on your sofa.
Or am I right in assuming you don't actually want to do it yourself but are quite happy for other taxpayers to pick up the bill?
I knew I would get flack but the lack of empathy with fellow humans is breathtaking. The criminals and scroungers wanting to breach our walls have in the vast majority of cases walked from war torn Africa and Middle East. How desperate must they be to even consider such a journey with no money food or idea of outcome. If that alone doesn't attract some sympathy with their plight then I'm saddened.
Walked? Clearly you have no understanding of the process. Shipped to Itsly, free, uncontested train ride (because no one will dare challenge them) across Europe to Calais, is how the vast majority travel. How do I know? Working to provide foster parents for several 'young' men (20 years old plus, but claiming to be 15to get the full range of UK assistance) in Birmingham, some with 'family' contacts in London but getting free schooling, accommodation, laptops, clothing, transport to mosque each week. It is just shocking.
To say they are fleeing or walking is absolutely ridiculous. What do you think is wrong with Italy or France that they have to 'flee' to the UK?
I knew I would get flack but the lack of empathy with fellow humans is breathtaking. The criminals and scroungers wanting to breach our walls have in the vast majority of cases walked from war torn Africa and Middle East. How desperate must they be to even consider such a journey with no money food or idea of outcome. If that alone doesn't attract some sympathy with their plight then I'm saddened.
Previously on this thread when Kentred waffled on about us having an obligation to take these refugees in I made him/her an offer that I would drive some of the refugees round to him/her so he/she could take them in. Surprisingly I never heard anymore.
So I'll make the same offer to you. Give us your address and I'll drop some of these poor people round to you for you to look after. Doesn't matter if you haven't got a spare room, I'm sure they'll be happy to sleep on your sofa.
Or am I right in assuming you don't actually want to do it yourself but are quite happy for other taxpayers to pick up the bill?
You can teach people to read but you can't teach them to understand. The problem with this country in a nutshell.
Shg these are not the migrants you talk of I assure you these are mainly I would say groups of people that have from a young age been bought up in the rough parts of Paris and the surrounding areas , I wouldn't be surprised if many went back to flats or apartments in and around calais , they smell of smoke nor dirt they are not starving I have seen them at cash points withdrawing cash,
KHA, I had to show that I will go as far as them if I had to I had just watched about ten of them smash a Dutch guys van to pieces as he ran up the flyover and down to the service station on the right taking everything he had and wishing I was brave enough to help him , but the drivers all around us stated they only help if the driver is physically attacked and then and only then do you get out of the vehicle , but the second they started touching my van I let them know I will fight back, right or wrong move I don't know but I can't allow my property to be attacked without defending it that's home or away it's just me
These people don't deserve nor need anyone's help support or sympathy
I'd arm myself with some pepper spray if I were in your position, preferably with dye. Pretty inexpensive on ebay. Stops people dead, and non-lethal.
I knew I would get flack but the lack of empathy with fellow humans is breathtaking. The criminals and scroungers wanting to breach our walls have in the vast majority of cases walked from war torn Africa and Middle East. How desperate must they be to even consider such a journey with no money food or idea of outcome. If that alone doesn't attract some sympathy with their plight then I'm saddened.
Previously on this thread when Kentred waffled on about us having an obligation to take these refugees in I made him/her an offer that I would drive some of the refugees round to him/her so he/she could take them in. Surprisingly I never heard anymore.
So I'll make the same offer to you. Give us your address and I'll drop some of these poor people round to you for you to look after. Doesn't matter if you haven't got a spare room, I'm sure they'll be happy to sleep on your sofa.
Or am I right in assuming you don't actually want to do it yourself but are quite happy for other taxpayers to pick up the bill?
I think I know why you issue these challenges. In a way you have understandably individualised and particularised the issue because it is all we have left when trying to proceed as a community is so rudderless and random.
There are loads of things in life we have to group together to try to deal with, and it seems to me the issue is not about SHG's or Kentreds apparent waffling empathy, they are entitled to feel that way, it is about how collectively all of us involved are failing here.
NLA as an individual has his lighter and WD40, and I fully understand that, and also respect what he has written about it actually being a fearful situation, and as a decent working guy, this is like something we used to see on the telly far away piling into the cab of his van. Appalling situation for NLA and others to experience, and more importantly to experience effectively alone, so folk are driven to drastic individual responses.
So we have NLA alone to endure it, you would also have Kentred and SHG alone to take in people and deal with it for the cheek (?) of expressing empathy. If ever there was a situation where folk should act together it is this one, but we are fragmented because the leadership on this is non existent, or in the hands of politicians who are caught in the headlights.
Having a go at NLA for feeling like taking extreme measures, or having a go at SHG for feeling empathetic is not going to solve things.
I don't pretend to have an easy solution, and it is in this kind of situation that we are supposed to have decent leaders in authority to plan how to sort it out. A Cobra meeting has happened, and fences planned and so on, I am doubtful, but maybe that will solve everything.
The wider debate (and I don't mean on here) is in danger of becoming hysterical and toxic, and the shocking thing is it is not difficult to see why, but hysteria and toxicity are useless when a cool and quick response it what is really needed.
Firstly the physical problems need to be sorted, and people and places made safe and secure, but that also needs to be matched by some kind of plan to deal with all those people who have pitched up, and that plan needs to be credible.
The costs right now are negligible when measures against the costs that Turkey has had to meet with their two million refugees, but for Turkey it is recognised as an international crisis and all kinds of agencies are involved.
The Calais thing is so localised and small in comparison that the rest of the world is leaving it up to Britain and France to sort out, so far they have not been doing it, which brings us back to, if not the authorities, then we as individuals have to take it on, and it will fragment us even more.
NLA absolutely deserves to go about his business in an ordinary and decent way. SHG and others deserve to also mention that maybe not everybody is scum, and perhaps to be driven to the point of (for instance) stowing away in the axle space of a lorry is an act of desperation for whatever reason. It may be equivocation or squaring a circle, but both the kind of response of NLA and the kind of response of SHG seem to be valid.
There has recently been an election, and it is time for the leaders to lead.
I knew I would get flack but the lack of empathy with fellow humans is breathtaking. The criminals and scroungers wanting to breach our walls have in the vast majority of cases walked from war torn Africa and Middle East. How desperate must they be to even consider such a journey with no money food or idea of outcome. If that alone doesn't attract some sympathy with their plight then I'm saddened.
Walked? Clearly you have no understanding of the process. Shipped to Itsly, free, uncontested train ride (because no one will dare challenge them) across Europe to Calais, is how the vast majority travel. How do I know? Working to provide foster parents for several 'young' men (20 years old plus, but claiming to be 15to get the full range of UK assistance) in Birmingham, some with 'family' contacts in London but getting free schooling, accommodation, laptops, clothing, transport to mosque each week. It is just shocking.
To say they are fleeing or walking is absolutely ridiculous. What do you think is wrong with Italy or France that they have to 'flee' to the UK?
Well, I would generally be interested in the answer to that question. In your previous para. you imply that the answer is a massive load of handouts, but this BBC article , which has been posted here before and not seriously challenged, suggests there isn't much difference.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should just let them all in, but I think it's important to understand why they all think it's so much better in the UK than in France. After all, @brogib for one knows what a big mistake they are making:-)
Many comments made in humour with little intention of harm but it's worth remembering that a human tragedy is being played out just 20 miles from our shores. These are people that deserve our sympathy even if our help is a bridge too far.
If most of them hadn't chucked their passports away or allowed them to be taken by traffickers, then yes they would get mine, and had they stopped at the first safe haven and claimed asylum like the rule book says, they would get even more.
I knew I would get flack but the lack of empathy with fellow humans is breathtaking. The criminals and scroungers wanting to breach our walls have in the vast majority of cases walked from war torn Africa and Middle East. How desperate must they be to even consider such a journey with no money food or idea of outcome. If that alone doesn't attract some sympathy with their plight then I'm saddened.
Previously on this thread when Kentred waffled on about us having an obligation to take these refugees in I made him/her an offer that I would drive some of the refugees round to him/her so he/she could take them in. Surprisingly I never heard anymore.
So I'll make the same offer to you. Give us your address and I'll drop some of these poor people round to you for you to look after. Doesn't matter if you haven't got a spare room, I'm sure they'll be happy to sleep on your sofa.
Or am I right in assuming you don't actually want to do it yourself but are quite happy for other taxpayers to pick up the bill?
Thank you for your offer although I first need you to point out to me in which post I stated that I was in favour of them being allowed entry into the UK.
I know they can't and shouldn't be allowed to come here but that doesn't stop me having waffling empathy and sympathy with their plight any less than it stops me feeling sorry for the desperate health tourist who comes here hoping to get treatment to save their lives because they can't afford to get that treatment in their own country.
We need to say enough is enough on both issues but I would prefer Britain as a society to have some pity for these people and to seek with others a good solution and not adopt the distasteful approach of pepper spray, rubber bullets and worse all suggested in this thread either in some jest ? Or seriously.
I knew I would get flack but the lack of empathy with fellow humans is breathtaking. The criminals and scroungers wanting to breach our walls have in the vast majority of cases walked from war torn Africa and Middle East. How desperate must they be to even consider such a journey with no money food or idea of outcome. If that alone doesn't attract some sympathy with their plight then I'm saddened.
Previously on this thread when Kentred waffled on about us having an obligation to take these refugees in I made him/her an offer that I would drive some of the refugees round to him/her so he/she could take them in. Surprisingly I never heard anymore.
So I'll make the same offer to you. Give us your address and I'll drop some of these poor people round to you for you to look after. Doesn't matter if you haven't got a spare room, I'm sure they'll be happy to sleep on your sofa.
Or am I right in assuming you don't actually want to do it yourself but are quite happy for other taxpayers to pick up the bill?
Thank you for your offer although I first need you to point out to me in which post I stated that I was in favour of them being allowed entry into the UK.
I know they can't and shouldn't be allowed to come here but that doesn't stop me having waffling empathy and sympathy with their plight any less than it stops me feeling sorry for the desperate health tourist who comes here hoping to get treatment to save their lives because they can't afford to get that treatment in their own country.
We need to say enough is enough on both issues but I would prefer Britain as a society to have some pity for these people and to seek with others a good solution and not adopt the distasteful approach of pepper spray, rubber bullets and worse all suggested in this thread either in some jest ? Or seriously.
I would hope we are better than that.
SHG do you still have sympathy for these people even if they threaten, steal and intimidate innocent people?
The news this morning reports that they are considering using MOD land to ease congestion and make Operation Stack less disruptive. Is it me or is that missing the point? The roads need to be cleared by making the tunnel and the port of Calais secure for business travel. That means a sufficient show of presence to deter people who are disrupting a massive area for their own purposes. It is simply applying the rule of law in both countries. And stories on here of intimidation of drivers in their lorries describe a completely unacceptable situation, it's not a wild west frontier over there these are commercial roads in a democratic European country.
Is the strike action still a factor today. Or is it more security for the ferries making the train system come under more pressure? I am wondering how the situation might be different if the industrial action was settled.
At heart you are a big softie and I respect that, but although I jest about shooting to kill , I don't jest about a proper detterant and nor do I jest about people finding an option to defend themselves and property, but I am not lying to you when I say these are not desperate or needy they are low life thieving scum
Unless I have missed it, the only reason given (on here at least) for their desire to come to the UK, rather than stay in France is because they prefer to speak English.
Ignoring that, are we all now agreed that they wish to cross The Channel because we are seen as being softer, more generous and offer an easy life ? Aside from their linguistic talents this can be the only reason for not wanting to stay in France.
There is a letter in The Times today from Lionel Anderson saying that we should bring them all over and accommodate them in, soon to be surplus, army barracks whilst employing them in roles that meet their qualifications and careers to date.
I knew I would get flack but the lack of empathy with fellow humans is breathtaking. The criminals and scroungers wanting to breach our walls have in the vast majority of cases walked from war torn Africa and Middle East. How desperate must they be to even consider such a journey with no money food or idea of outcome. If that alone doesn't attract some sympathy with their plight then I'm saddened.
Walked? Clearly you have no understanding of the process. Shipped to Itsly, free, uncontested train ride (because no one will dare challenge them) across Europe to Calais, is how the vast majority travel. How do I know? Working to provide foster parents for several 'young' men (20 years old plus, but claiming to be 15to get the full range of UK assistance) in Birmingham, some with 'family' contacts in London but getting free schooling, accommodation, laptops, clothing, transport to mosque each week. It is just shocking.
To say they are fleeing or walking is absolutely ridiculous. What do you think is wrong with Italy or France that they have to 'flee' to the UK?
Well, I would generally be interested in the answer to that question. In your previous para. you imply that the answer is a massive load of handouts, but this BBC article , which has been posted here before and not seriously challenged, suggests there isn't much difference.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should just let them all in, but I think it's important to understand why they all think it's so much better in the UK than in France. After all, @brogib for one knows what a big mistake they are making:-)
I think this is the crux of the issue. They are not disproportionately better off coming here, in fact IIRC a single man claiming asylum in France is better off financially than here. But there is a perception that they will find it easier here to both get residency should they want to do it through the correct channels (which I think may be the case) but more attractively that they will be able to find work illegally regardless of their status.
Not sure about that as anyone who has lived in France for example will testify there is a huge black economy there too. But if this is the case then we also have to look at ourselves for creating this perception as a small part of the bigger problem and we need to correct that perception.
More resources spent on prosecuting those prepared to exploit desperate migrants for their own personal gain plus some targeted education of the reality of the situation in the UK might pay off in the long run.
Ignoring that, are we all now agreed that they wish to cross The Channel because we are seen as being softer, more generous and offer an easy life ?
No.
The graph below shows the UK ranks 6th in EU countries receiving asylum applications. Also, the links provided by Prague and others describe how the benefits offered by the UK to asylum seekers are not significantly better than those offered by France and other members of the EU.
1. Allow adults to enter the UK on condition that they find immediate employment and accept the first job offered otherwise they will be returned to France. 2. Set up an army recruitment booth on the border. 3. Offer anyone who enters the UK a job in the army. 4. Train them up and send them to fight in their homeland. 5. Defeat the evil people and they can all move back home to their now peaceful glorious free paradises. 6. Steal all their oil
Ignoring that, are we all now agreed that they wish to cross The Channel because we are seen as being softer, more generous and offer an easy life ?
No.
The graph below shows the UK ranks 6th in EU countries receiving asylum applications. Also, the links provided by Prague and others describe how the benefits offered by the UK to asylum seekers are not significantly better than those offered by France and other members of the EU.
Thats all very well, but I think the main issue is the illegals that are either trying to get in or are already here.
I knew I would get flack but the lack of empathy with fellow humans is breathtaking. The criminals and scroungers wanting to breach our walls have in the vast majority of cases walked from war torn Africa and Middle East. How desperate must they be to even consider such a journey with no money food or idea of outcome. If that alone doesn't attract some sympathy with their plight then I'm saddened.
Previously on this thread when Kentred waffled on about us having an obligation to take these refugees in I made him/her an offer that I would drive some of the refugees round to him/her so he/she could take them in. Surprisingly I never heard anymore.
So I'll make the same offer to you. Give us your address and I'll drop some of these poor people round to you for you to look after. Doesn't matter if you haven't got a spare room, I'm sure they'll be happy to sleep on your sofa.
Or am I right in assuming you don't actually want to do it yourself but are quite happy for other taxpayers to pick up the bill?
Thank you for your offer although I first need you to point out to me in which post I stated that I was in favour of them being allowed entry into the UK.
I know they can't and shouldn't be allowed to come here but that doesn't stop me having waffling empathy and sympathy with their plight any less than it stops me feeling sorry for the desperate health tourist who comes here hoping to get treatment to save their lives because they can't afford to get that treatment in their own country.
We need to say enough is enough on both issues but I would prefer Britain as a society to have some pity for these people and to seek with others a good solution and not adopt the distasteful approach of pepper spray, rubber bullets and worse all suggested in this thread either in some jest ? Or seriously.
I would hope we are better than that.
SHG do you still have sympathy for these people even if they threaten, steal and intimidate innocent people?
Comments
So I'll make the same offer to you. Give us your address and I'll drop some of these poor people round to you for you to look after. Doesn't matter if you haven't got a spare room, I'm sure they'll be happy to sleep on your sofa.
Or am I right in assuming you don't actually want to do it yourself but are quite happy for other taxpayers to pick up the bill?
Clearly you have no understanding of the process.
Shipped to Itsly, free, uncontested train ride (because no one will dare challenge them) across Europe to Calais, is how the vast majority travel.
How do I know?
Working to provide foster parents for several 'young' men (20 years old plus, but claiming to be 15to get the full range of UK assistance) in Birmingham, some with 'family' contacts in London but getting free schooling, accommodation, laptops, clothing, transport to mosque each week. It is just shocking.
To say they are fleeing or walking is absolutely ridiculous. What do you think is wrong with Italy or France that they have to 'flee' to the UK?
There are loads of things in life we have to group together to try to deal with, and it seems to me the issue is not about SHG's or Kentreds apparent waffling empathy, they are entitled to feel that way, it is about how collectively all of us involved are failing here.
NLA as an individual has his lighter and WD40, and I fully understand that, and also respect what he has written about it actually being a fearful situation, and as a decent working guy, this is like something we used to see on the telly far away piling into the cab of his van. Appalling situation for NLA and others to experience, and more importantly to experience effectively alone, so folk are driven to drastic individual responses.
So we have NLA alone to endure it, you would also have Kentred and SHG alone to take in people and deal with it for the cheek (?) of expressing empathy. If ever there was a situation where folk should act together it is this one, but we are fragmented because the leadership on this is non existent, or in the hands of politicians who are caught in the headlights.
Having a go at NLA for feeling like taking extreme measures, or having a go at SHG for feeling empathetic is not going to solve things.
I don't pretend to have an easy solution, and it is in this kind of situation that we are supposed to have decent leaders in authority to plan how to sort it out. A Cobra meeting has happened, and fences planned and so on, I am doubtful, but maybe that will solve everything.
The wider debate (and I don't mean on here) is in danger of becoming hysterical and toxic, and the shocking thing is it is not difficult to see why, but hysteria and toxicity are useless when a cool and quick response it what is really needed.
Firstly the physical problems need to be sorted, and people and places made safe and secure, but that also needs to be matched by some kind of plan to deal with all those people who have pitched up, and that plan needs to be credible.
The costs right now are negligible when measures against the costs that Turkey has had to meet with their two million refugees, but for Turkey it is recognised as an international crisis and all kinds of agencies are involved.
The Calais thing is so localised and small in comparison that the rest of the world is leaving it up to Britain and France to sort out, so far they have not been doing it, which brings us back to, if not the authorities, then we as individuals have to take it on, and it will fragment us even more.
NLA absolutely deserves to go about his business in an ordinary and decent way. SHG and others deserve to also mention that maybe not everybody is scum, and perhaps to be driven to the point of (for instance) stowing away in the axle space of a lorry is an act of desperation for whatever reason. It may be equivocation or squaring a circle, but both the kind of response of NLA and the kind of response of SHG seem to be valid.
There has recently been an election, and it is time for the leaders to lead.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should just let them all in, but I think it's important to understand why they all think it's so much better in the UK than in France. After all, @brogib for one knows what a big mistake they are making:-)
I know they can't and shouldn't be allowed to come here but that doesn't stop me having waffling empathy and sympathy with their plight any less than it stops me feeling sorry for the desperate health tourist who comes here hoping to get treatment to save their lives because they can't afford to get that treatment in their own country.
We need to say enough is enough on both issues but I would prefer Britain as a society to have some pity for these people and to seek with others a good solution and not adopt the distasteful approach of pepper spray, rubber bullets and worse all suggested in this thread either in some jest ? Or seriously.
I would hope we are better than that.
Is it me or is that missing the point? The roads need to be cleared by making the tunnel and the port of Calais secure for business travel. That means a sufficient show of presence to deter people who are disrupting a massive area for their own purposes.
It is simply applying the rule of law in both countries. And stories on here of intimidation of drivers in their lorries describe a completely unacceptable situation, it's not a wild west frontier over there these are commercial roads in a democratic European country.
I am wondering how the situation might be different if the industrial action was settled.
At heart you are a big softie and I respect that, but although I jest about shooting to kill , I don't jest about a proper detterant and nor do I jest about people finding an option to defend themselves and property, but I am not lying to you when I say these are not desperate or needy they are low life thieving scum
Ignoring that, are we all now agreed that they wish to cross The Channel because we are seen as being softer, more generous and offer an easy life ? Aside from their linguistic talents this can be the only reason for not wanting to stay in France.
There is a letter in The Times today from Lionel Anderson saying that we should bring them all over and accommodate them in, soon to be surplus, army barracks whilst employing them in roles that meet their qualifications and careers to date.
Lionel lives in Spain.
Come and live with him at his villa.
Not sure about that as anyone who has lived in France for example will testify there is a huge black economy there too. But if this is the case then we also have to look at ourselves for creating this perception as a small part of the bigger problem and we need to correct that perception.
More resources spent on prosecuting those prepared to exploit desperate migrants for their own personal gain plus some targeted education of the reality of the situation in the UK might pay off in the long run.
This
The graph below shows the UK ranks 6th in EU countries receiving asylum applications. Also, the links provided by Prague and others describe how the benefits offered by the UK to asylum seekers are not significantly better than those offered by France and other members of the EU.
1. Allow adults to enter the UK on condition that they find immediate employment and accept the first job offered otherwise they will be returned to France.
2. Set up an army recruitment booth on the border.
3. Offer anyone who enters the UK a job in the army.
4. Train them up and send them to fight in their homeland.
5. Defeat the evil people and they can all move back home to their now peaceful glorious free paradises.
6. Steal all their oil* actually not really serious