For those who think Mercedes have no chance of winning their appeal if they go to CAS it's worth noting that CAS overturned Man City's 2 year ban from Europe despite the whole world thinking they were bang to rights.
You could get some fair minded ex racers to look at every race this season and tidy up the rules. Then you apply those rules with consistency. Then it reverts to being a sport. The thing about Masi, Red Bull won't cry any tears if he is sacked either.
Things I would look at which I believe damaged the sport was the procession that was deemed a race in Spa. Inconsistency in punishments - what is a time penalty and what is a grid penalty? I thought I knew but it got too muddled. It is what frustrates me about the handball rule in football in recent years.
Silverstone was an example where Hamilton probably should have got a grid penalty next race although Verstappen's yield or die racing needed stepping on earlier and certainly getting away with it in Brazil and not facing a serious punishment after driving that crossed the line in Saudi Arabia was highly wrong.
It doesn't matter to some but Schumacher was a great driver tarnished by cheating to win a World title. And if there was doubt about that, it was confirmed when he tried it again (but got punished). Senna was a brilliant driver but his antics against Prost detracted from his achievements. I was a Senna fan but history has taught me that Prost was a better driver. A slower driver but the whole package was better. I don't like saying that as I was supporting Senna over Prost, but I recognised cheating when I saw it.
The line between cheating in F1 and sport has over the years been a tenuous one, but it has managed to pull itself back. I am not sure that with its present owners it will do so. My dad loved the sport and I inherited it from him, but when I start to feel patronised by the sport, it loses its draw. I'm glad the season has ended as I am feeling on a low with it at present and that isn't because of who won the Championship, but more how it was won. I'd feel exactly the same if Hamilton won it in that way.
Absolutely agree with Muttley, when you have 3 world champions on the analysis and they all seem utterly confused by what happened then it shows that they need to have a good look back at this entire season and demystify some of these rules.
Spa was an absolute joke of a race , despite being a George fan that whole Sunday was an absolute farce all around. Made the infamous Charlton Vs Doncaster game with the brooms look well organised!
I think a lot will come out in the future around this season once Lewis has left the sport and we look back.
This is the most political of sports and some of what’s gone on this year is right up there with the Balestre / Senna / Prost shenanigans of the 80s/90s.
There are bigger forces at play around Lewis and I truly believe a lot of the other drivers are well aware of it (hence a lot of the rather muted congrats to Max from the likes of Lando and Ocon).
Both Verstappen and Hamilton deserved to win the Championship. Hamilton ended the season with the best car but Red Bull had the better car for a good chunk of the season. It is just how it was won was wrong.
Latifi had that accident at the end of the race. A race Hamilton was comfortably going to win. Hamilton couldn't pit because it was highly likely that there wouldn't be any more racing. That is how it was panning out but to engineer a last lap shootout that wasn't going to happen due to the positions of the cars, rules were purposely broken.
Derek Warwick sided with Hamilton early in the race and would not have been part of the travesty of a last lap. That was on Masi. What we have to accept is that stewards, like referees in football, will make some decisions that are contentious. There is a difference between that and what we saw at the end of the race.
I think a lot will come out in the future around this season once Lewis has left the sport and we look back.
This is the most political of sports and some of what’s gone on this year is right up there with the Balestre / Senna / Prost shenanigans of the 80s/90s.
There are bigger forces at play around Lewis and I truly believe a lot of the other drivers are well aware of it (hence a lot of the rather muted congrats to Max from the likes of Lando and Ocon).
Is it not possible that most other drivers just think Verstappen is a prick?
I think a lot will come out in the future around this season once Lewis has left the sport and we look back.
This is the most political of sports and some of what’s gone on this year is right up there with the Balestre / Senna / Prost shenanigans of the 80s/90s.
There are bigger forces at play around Lewis and I truly believe a lot of the other drivers are well aware of it (hence a lot of the rather muted congrats to Max from the likes of Lando and Ocon).
Is it not possible that most other drivers just think Verstappen is a prick?
Oh yes I’m sure they do - but Lando was questioning ‘the way the title was won’. Ocon said ‘something doesn’t feel quite right about this’.
I still think Lewis would have walked if it wasn’t for the last lap yesterday. And then I was looking forward to George and Lando shutting up Max and his Orange Army.
I have a feeling Red Bull will be hopeless next year as they spent all their development tokens and time on 2021. Mercedes kept all their development tokens (on engine believe it or not) back. And so I think the likes of Merc, McLaren and even Ferrari (who did the same I think) could be very strong.
Mercedes with Lewis and George behind the wheel look ridiculously strong, get the car right and it’ll be a parade for them next year. Lewis gets his 8th, retires and then George takes the lead
I’m still absolutely gutted this morning. I thought I’d be over it by now. The company I work for work very closely with Lewis and no one has a bad word to say about him.
I am not a regular F1 viewer, so can someone who understands the sport help me?
If I remember correctly, earlier in yesterday’s race , there was an incident and they imposed a “virtual” safety car requiring all drivers to reduce their speed by 40% until everything was back to normal. So no one gained an advantage (or was disadvantaged).
However, in the incident near the end when Hamilton had a 10-11 second lead they not only allowed several lapped cars to pass the safety car and re-establish a clear run at Hamilton for Verstappen (and I understand the reasoning) but then also allowed him to re-start virtually alongside Hamilton thus removing the 10-11 advantage he had before the incident.
Now I appreciate that in a race an accident/incident might hold up the leader and therefore allow the second placed car to gain ground and get back in touch with the leader. However, they don’t seem to allow that to happen when they employ a virtual safety car.
Am struggling with the inconsistency. Presumably it is the severity of the incident or risk re track debris etc that determines whether a virtual or a physical safety car is deployed, but the restart after a physical safety car deployment seemed to disadvantage Hamilton severely.
Derek Warwick sided with Hamilton early in the race and would not have been part of the travesty of a last lap. That was on Masi. What we have to accept is that stewards, like referees in football, will make some decisions that are contentious. There is a difference between that and what we saw at the end of the race.
Trying to engineer a climax just makes F1 look ridiculous.
I hope that whatever the outcome/fallout from yesterday is, next season team principles are not allowed to keep pestering the stewards/masi the way both RB and Merc have this season.
I hope that whatever the outcome/fallout from yesterday is, next season team principles are not allowed to keep pestering the stewards/masi the way both RB and Merc have this season.
Its no doubt something that happens from all teams.
Unfortunately this year the FIA have decided to allow "select" radio messages between teams / Masi to be aired to the public - Bit annoying as it probably makes it sound like we're getting the full picture, when we're not.
The team that really interest me for 2022 is Alpine , they really seemed to take a step forward and if they nail the regulation change then throwing Alonso into that title fight would be very interesting to see.
I hope that whatever the outcome/fallout from yesterday is, next season team principles are not allowed to keep pestering the stewards/masi the way both RB and Merc have this season.
Its no doubt something that happens from all teams.
Unfortunately this year the FIA have decided to allow "select" radio messages between teams / Masi to be aired to the public - Bit annoying as it probably makes it sound like we're getting the full picture, when we're not.
I'm sure it does, still needs to be reigned in IMO
Derek Warwick sided with Hamilton early in the race and would not have been part of the travesty of a last lap. That was on Masi. What we have to accept is that stewards, like referees in football, will make some decisions that are contentious. There is a difference between that and what we saw at the end of the race.
Trying to engineer a climax just makes F1 look ridiculous.
I hope that whatever the outcome/fallout from yesterday is, next season team principles are not allowed to keep pestering the stewards/masi the way both RB and Merc have this season.
Completely agree.
Whilst it is surrounded in controversy, I do somewhat feel for Masi. He has to make a decision in a matter of seconds.. in the midst of RB and Merc nagging away at him. I'm sure he didn't want the season to end like this.
Anyway, I'm sure CAS will go through the rulebook with a fine toothcomb and we will soon see the outcome. I personally think it will stay with Max.
I hope that whatever the outcome/fallout from yesterday is, next season team principles are not allowed to keep pestering the stewards/masi the way both RB and Merc have this season.
Completely agree.
Whilst it is surrounded in controversy, I do somewhat feel for Masi. He has to make a decision in a matter of seconds.. in the midst of RB and Merc nagging away at him. I'm sure he didn't want the season to end like this.
Anyway, I'm sure CAS will go through the rulebook with a fine toothcomb and we will soon see the outcome. I personally think it will stay with Max.
I dont think Merc expect to win.
This will all be to remove the dodgyness at the heart of the FIA (heading towards FIFA levels here) and think Masi will fall on his sword which will allow Merc to pull out of the appeal.
I am not a regular F1 viewer, so can someone who understands the sport help me?
If I remember correctly, earlier in yesterday’s race , there was an incident and they imposed a “virtual” safety car requiring all drivers to reduce their speed by 40% until everything was back to normal. So no one gained an advantage (or was disadvantaged).
However, in the incident near the end when Hamilton had a 10-11 second lead they not only allowed several lapped cars to pass the safety car and re-establish a clear run at Hamilton for Verstappen (and I understand the reasoning) but then also allowed him to re-start virtually alongside Hamilton thus removing the 10-11 advantage he had before the incident.
Now I appreciate that in a race an accident/incident might hold up the leader and therefore allow the second placed car to gain ground and get back in touch with the leader. However, they don’t seem to allow that to happen when they employ a virtual safety car.
Am struggling with the inconsistency. Presumably it is the severity of the incident or risk re track debris etc that determines whether a virtual or a physical safety car is deployed, but the restart after a physical safety car deployment seemed to disadvantage Hamilton severely.
Completely different incidents need different levels of safety car. VSC was used for a car stopped by the side of the road, intact, that could be recovered relatively quickly. Full safety car was used for a car, on the racing line, incapacitated and with debris strewn across the circuit, difficult to recover. Red flag (like in Jeddah or Bahrain after the Grosjean crash) is used when there is injured drivers or severe damage to the circuit and/or the barriers, and the circuit is in an unsafe state.
Everyone knows this and the bunching of the pack behind a safety car is just part of the sport, always had been since they introduced them
I am not a regular F1 viewer, so can someone who understands the sport help me?
If I remember correctly, earlier in yesterday’s race , there was an incident and they imposed a “virtual” safety car requiring all drivers to reduce their speed by 40% until everything was back to normal. So no one gained an advantage (or was disadvantaged).
However, in the incident near the end when Hamilton had a 10-11 second lead they not only allowed several lapped cars to pass the safety car and re-establish a clear run at Hamilton for Verstappen (and I understand the reasoning) but then also allowed him to re-start virtually alongside Hamilton thus removing the 10-11 advantage he had before the incident.
Now I appreciate that in a race an accident/incident might hold up the leader and therefore allow the second placed car to gain ground and get back in touch with the leader. However, they don’t seem to allow that to happen when they employ a virtual safety car.
Am struggling with the inconsistency. Presumably it is the severity of the incident or risk re track debris etc that determines whether a virtual or a physical safety car is deployed, but the restart after a physical safety car deployment seemed to disadvantage Hamilton severely.
Completely different incidents need different levels of safety car. VSC was used for a car stopped by the side of the road, intact, that could be recovered relatively quickly. Full safety car was used for a car, on the racing line, incapacitated and with debris strewn across the circuit, difficult to recover. Red flag (like in Jeddah or Bahrain after the Grosjean crash) is used when there is injured drivers or severe damage to the circuit and/or the barriers, and the circuit is in an unsafe state.
Everyone knows this and the bunching of the pack behind a safety car is just part of the sport, always had been since they introduced them
Thanks for clarifying.
Seems like a mess with the subsequent dispute over the re-start rules interpretation but the FIA will likely prevail with the provision allowing the race director to have overall discretion.
Why do so many British people support that arrogant twat Verstappen ? He couldn’t even bring himself to mention Lewis after the race. Lewis always talks with dignity and respects and mentions his competitors. As for that bigger twat Horner …
Why do so many British people support that arrogant twat Verstappen ? He couldn’t even bring himself to mention Lewis after the race. Lewis always talks with dignity and respects and mentions his competitors. As for that bigger twat Horner …
Dangerous driver who clearly isn’t liked by fellow professionals either and storms off when the questions get too difficult. I don’t see anything likeable about him. The justification is that it’s boring Hamilton winning? Well, maybe he’s because he’s just better. If they’re genuinely good enough, they’ll beat him. Farce of a sport.
Why do so many British people support that arrogant twat Verstappen ? He couldn’t even bring himself to mention Lewis after the race. Lewis always talks with dignity and respects and mentions his competitors. As for that bigger twat Horner …
I know why some do, it is because they consider Hamilton to be Woke which in their eyes is worse than being a Pedo. Anybody that beats him would get their support. Siding with a foreigner over a Brit is one thing, but when the Brit is the greatest of all time in F1, it shows them up for what they are. You don't have to like him to respect his talent.
Not an F1 follower at all, but do remember a lot of people tended to support Schumacher over Button or Coultard at the time. Also think people follow teams as much as drivers
The Italians do. You could put a serial killer in a Ferrari and they would support them. But us Brits tend to go with a driver. I know my hero was Nigel Mansell.
I think it's says a lot that people are suggesting you aren't allowed to support a foreign driver in a sport that doesn't even race for international team points.
Comments
Things I would look at which I believe damaged the sport was the procession that was deemed a race in Spa. Inconsistency in punishments - what is a time penalty and what is a grid penalty? I thought I knew but it got too muddled. It is what frustrates me about the handball rule in football in recent years.
Silverstone was an example where Hamilton probably should have got a grid penalty next race although Verstappen's yield or die racing needed stepping on earlier and certainly getting away with it in Brazil and not facing a serious punishment after driving that crossed the line in Saudi Arabia was highly wrong.
It doesn't matter to some but Schumacher was a great driver tarnished by cheating to win a World title. And if there was doubt about that, it was confirmed when he tried it again (but got punished). Senna was a brilliant driver but his antics against Prost detracted from his achievements. I was a Senna fan but history has taught me that Prost was a better driver. A slower driver but the whole package was better. I don't like saying that as I was supporting Senna over Prost, but I recognised cheating when I saw it.
The line between cheating in F1 and sport has over the years been a tenuous one, but it has managed to pull itself back. I am not sure that with its present owners it will do so. My dad loved the sport and I inherited it from him, but when I start to feel patronised by the sport, it loses its draw. I'm glad the season has ended as I am feeling on a low with it at present and that isn't because of who won the Championship, but more how it was won. I'd feel exactly the same if Hamilton won it in that way.
Spa was an absolute joke of a race , despite being a George fan that whole Sunday was an absolute farce all around. Made the infamous Charlton Vs Doncaster game with the brooms look well organised!
This is the most political of sports and some of what’s gone on this year is right up there with the Balestre / Senna / Prost shenanigans of the 80s/90s.
There are bigger forces at play around Lewis and I truly believe a lot of the other drivers are well aware of it (hence a lot of the rather muted congrats to Max from the likes of Lando and Ocon).
Latifi had that accident at the end of the race. A race Hamilton was comfortably going to win. Hamilton couldn't pit because it was highly likely that there wouldn't be any more racing. That is how it was panning out but to engineer a last lap shootout that wasn't going to happen due to the positions of the cars, rules were purposely broken.
After all Derek Warwick (one of those) called Max Verstappen: "The great white hope" back in 2016
I still think Lewis would have walked if it wasn’t for the last lap yesterday. And then I was looking forward to George and Lando shutting up Max and his Orange Army.
I have a feeling Red Bull will be hopeless next year as they spent all their development tokens and time on 2021. Mercedes kept all their development tokens (on engine believe it or not) back. And so I think the likes of Merc, McLaren and even Ferrari (who did the same I think) could be very strong.
If I remember correctly, earlier in yesterday’s race , there was an incident and they imposed a “virtual” safety car requiring all drivers to reduce their speed by 40% until everything was back to normal. So no one gained an advantage (or was disadvantaged).
However, in the incident near the end when Hamilton had a 10-11 second lead they not only allowed several lapped cars to pass the safety car and re-establish a clear run at Hamilton for Verstappen (and I understand the reasoning) but then also allowed him to re-start virtually alongside Hamilton thus removing the 10-11 advantage he had before the incident.
Now I appreciate that in a race an accident/incident might hold up the leader and therefore allow the second placed car to gain ground and get back in touch with the leader. However, they don’t seem to allow that to happen when they employ a virtual safety car.
Am struggling with the inconsistency. Presumably it is the severity of the incident or risk re track debris etc that determines whether a virtual or a physical safety car is deployed, but the restart after a physical safety car deployment seemed to disadvantage Hamilton severely.
Unfortunately this year the FIA have decided to allow "select" radio messages between teams / Masi to be aired to the public - Bit annoying as it probably makes it sound like we're getting the full picture, when we're not.
Whilst it is surrounded in controversy, I do somewhat feel for Masi. He has to make a decision in a matter of seconds.. in the midst of RB and Merc nagging away at him. I'm sure he didn't want the season to end like this.
Anyway, I'm sure CAS will go through the rulebook with a fine toothcomb and we will soon see the outcome. I personally think it will stay with Max.
This will all be to remove the dodgyness at the heart of the FIA (heading towards FIFA levels here) and think Masi will fall on his sword which will allow Merc to pull out of the appeal.
Everyone knows this and the bunching of the pack behind a safety car is just part of the sport, always had been since they introduced them
Seems like a mess with the subsequent dispute over the re-start rules interpretation but the FIA will likely prevail with the provision allowing the race director to have overall discretion.