it's basically a moron trying to use footballers as microchips, or whatever else he sells, a binary approach to human beings... utter garbage, we will also take the short term money, we will languish in the lower leagues and he will never risk more than the money he is currently losing...
Dangerously he will also not take a loss, obviously... so long term when this experiment fails I have massive fears for the club...
Theres people on here good at collating the info and providing the stats, the experiment thing as I said before is a concern, and how you explain it seems to be grounds for voicing the opinion of concern, but wouldnt it be good to show that season on season we are becoming weaker in each postition, we dont seem to lose huge cash on the signings so lets look at the players themselves as the evidence
I suspect most top two division clubs now have this covered in some form. It's not new and we are not alone in any way. Where we might be alone is that I suspect elsewhere this is 99% something used to back up a manager /club structure scouting network set up within the club. With us it is almost an independent contractor, based overseas.
Theres people on here good at collating the info and providing the stats, the experiment thing as I said before is a concern, and how you explain it seems to be grounds for voicing the opinion of concern, but wouldnt it be good to show that season on season we are becoming weaker in each postition, we dont seem to lose huge cash on the signings so lets look at the players themselves as the evidence
Are the signings becoming better on average year on year ?
I would say so tbh, which is where the mgr changes come in we dont hang around in doing so giving the new guy a chance to get that improvement
NLA in the old days you used to be the voice of reason, but honestly this season you have come out with so much rubbish.
For such a seemingly emotional bloke I'd hope you'd appreciate the benefit of the views of people who have actually been at matches and seen what's going on with their own eyes.
Unfortunately, like so many generally online, I fear you've become one of those posters who enjoys writing comments that are the opposite of the majority for the sake of it and the thrill of somehow thinking you're seeing things others aren't. Every dissenting view in some way feeding your burgeoning online ego.
If you love this club, then how can you disregard the views of so many on here who have been so unwavering in their support in the past? At least consider them without bleating out the same message again and again when you're not even coming to matches. The despair and apathy in the crowd is hard to convey when you're not actually there experiencing it.
I'd take a step back and have a think about why so many people, from such diverse backgrounds, have all come to the same conclusions. (even when we're winning!!)
I'm not sure why you can't make it to the ground this season but you sure do find enough time to post on every thread that's questioning the current ownership, repeatedly, with the same comments ad nauseam.
I think u are misunderstanding me tbh, I am trying to understand the feeling against Rd as I cant see the scalemof the problem as others do, and this issue on recruitment is the one that I think its easiest to demonstrate the failings and why so many use it as an indicator to what everyine shoukd see
it seems to me that not only do players get shelved and moved on very quickly but the mgrs dont get long either to fix bad runs, as with peeters luzon started well but as soon as he hit a bad patch he was gone, that allows the next mgr to come in and have time and games to put it right, now with KF if he has the good bits riga had and yet brings his own ideas with it things could and should pick up quickly and we should in theory finish quite strongly, its not December yet so there is a long way to go
I may not see the issues that many do but theres people I speak to who go home and away that dont see them either so it is not because I aint there that its not affecting my view, I saw the start of the season the same people getting angry now over our postition feeling very positive, nothing had changed from that point to this other than results, if recruitment is an issue now it was then, yet it wasnt really shouted about,
Km and her decisions were criticised when luzon was employed yet his results had peoples questioning of his appointment wain so much he became popular
I am not trawling to wind up its trying to understand the issues and have them laid out to Me,
So far the only thing I can establish is no one really knows what they want to achieve through the protests other than to remove km, but what would it solve Rd will find another km
And a change in recruitment policy, but if the policy is not as poor as some state and player for player we are not worse off then changing the recruitment isnt going to solve it
So what are the issues and whats the resolutions as of yet I am struggling to see them, the only one that is a concern to me is this stats analysis and how its relied on, as to me its removing the human element, but what if he is right and what if others are doing it but it took time to get good at understanding the information, does that explain the high turnover of players,
I hope that explains and shows I am not trying to troll just asking non popular questions
His current strategy is to buy players who have been injured or have under performed their potential shove them into a division where you play a large number of games, hope one or 2 shine, sell them on for profit...
Bring in the youth, hope some shine, sell them on for profit...
If we are there or there about come December splash a bit more money and gamble on potential promotion...
keep all other costs low, cheap mangers who won't kick off at the ridiculous strategy, better suited to the microchip industry as opposed to tiresome and unpredictable Human industry that is football...
Rinse and Repeat...
No chance to connect with a player or team ALA Johnnie Jackson or the glory years of championship promotion, where we loved and felt connected to almost the entire squad...
Boring as bat shit... no wonder everyone is leaving and not returning...
He can change his mind and bend the rules to this framework but overall this is a like or lump it strategy...
His current strategy is to buy players who have been injured or have under performed their potential shove them into a division where you play a large number of games, hope one or 2 shine, sell them on for profit...
Bring in the youth, hope some shine, sell them on for profit...
If we are there or there about come December splash a bit more money and gamble on potential promotion...
keep all other costs low, cheap mangers who won't kick off at the ridiculous strategy, better suited to the microchip industry as opposed to tiresome and unpredictable Human industry that is football...
Rinse and Repeat...
No chance to connect with a player or team ALA Johnnie Jackson or the glory years of championship promotion, where we loved and felt connected to almost the entire squad...
Boring as bat shit... no wonder everyone is leaving and not returning...
He can change his mind and bend the rules to this framework but overall this is a like or lump it strategy...
Its a fair analogy of how some see it, and how they state it on here but here is my issue with it as of yet we havent sold any of the players signed that had in the past under performed or been injured for any sort of profit, and if they come good then surely thats a positive although its not going to excite or envoke positive hopes for promotion and seems tight fisted
We have always sold youth players or anyone we turn into a good player and always will, we are not attractive enough nor a big enough club to not do this unfortunately, so by investing in the infrastructure is it not a bettervway of bringing them through and developing them to fund better signings than mentioned above and to potentially add to a decent squad exactly what may be needed for promotion
I can not disagree with the mgr situation but if his vision is how you and I both see it bringing in soneone who cant work within it would be counter productive and so far we have not been relegated from the championship and you could say that his intention is that scenerio as a minimum he deems as some form of evidence that he is correct and as such he wont change there
Keeping to a low budget is surely his right its his money, he has though invested in the ground and it looks like he is supporting change at training ground, I can suffer tight budgets elsewhere if we have a decent ground, youth programme and training facilities as a trade off it also might not be enough to engage promotion ambition but it does say stability in the infrastructure
Unfortunately it is a like it or lump it strategy but no one was really queing up to buy us before him that was any good and unless people can bring others Rd the table its his ball, his goals his players his rules
Does it make it right I dont know but does it make him wrong I dont know that either
When we used to develop youth, that product, would very often end up in the side and in many cases for years on end, Parker, Konchesky, Lisbie(:/) since we have fallen we have sold on a few products Gomez, Shelvey, and The arsenal and now West Ham right back (name escapes me) and we as fans are obviously looking and wanting to get back to that stage and that level.
The ambition of this man is different to The ethos of the club, it has changed under Roland, the strategy laid out is not, for a large number of fans, anything close to the Charlton they have known and supported for decades and are hence we are frustrated.
Yes it is his money, and yes he can do what he likes, but with an approach based on non attachment to players using a develop and grow your value or your out, ala Watt today even, to fit budget for Vaz Te and zero opportunity to get to know and love a player, is not what most want or have been involved with in the past, a player like Watt needs support. Also this approach will not work anyway, all the real success' of this club have been built on stability and a developed, slow growth, a team has been built and then added to over time, there is no chance of that happening with this system.
Most people would much prefer money being spent on the team than on the training ground… we pay money to watch the team…
Is it better then being bust, yes is it an approach most people are after and support, no.
Watt was always a gamble and it was a gamble worth taking because he gave the team and the crowd a big lift when he arrived. Sometimes a difficult character finds somewhere where he is comfortable, settles down and becomes a club legend, I'm thinking Derek Hales. In Watt's case, I hope that is still possible with us, because I love watching players with his ability and I'm so disappointed that I won't now get to see him when I come back.
You can only think that with the recent rise of Lookman, that Watt's continued presence, was even less essential to those at the top.
From the outside, it sounds like he has a bit of an attitude problem, and as someone like Ravel Morrison could probably agree, you can change as many clubs as you like, but sometimes the only solutions lie within.
Anyway back to the topic on the thread, sorry to see Tony go. I backed him @ 80/1 to be top goal scorer. So fill your boots Tony while you are at Cardiff, it would be nice to see him return, however it seems unlikely, which is a real shame.
That doesnt matter though if they were scouted using the data analysis, I wish I had been mysrlf this season and more last to judge but I havent but on paper the squad looks more balanced and competitive to the one that started last season
Yet we are no better off. The reason for that is a mixture of the following.
1. Not retaining the right players. 2. Not buying the right players. 3. A string of inexperienced managers.
So yeah, you could say our recruitment strategy is completely up the wall, which is what many of us have been complaining about since RD took over.
Summed up perfectly without needing to go into detail.
I suspect most top two division clubs now have this covered in some form. It's not new and we are not alone in any way. Where we might be alone is that I suspect elsewhere this is 99% something used to back up a manager /club structure scouting network set up within the club. With us it is almost an independent contractor, based overseas.
We probably need a separate thread on this. But i think this post is on the money, because I'm sure someone from another club (I mean only a fan, probably from one of the other Trusts in the OS campaign) told me that most clubs are using more and more data. The use of data per se is hardly revolutionary in other words. We might have been discussing Brentford at the time.
We know that RD is a data man, a mathematician. We also hear that he isn't the most personally empathetic person on the planet. He may be under-estimating the human element of team sport, because of this. But he might buy an argument that data alone cannot predict performance - if somebody used a data based argument to demonstrate that, if you see what I mean...
And we got shot pretty quickly of all of those ab, that's the intriguing thing with this for me are we using stat analysis to recruit but also to ship out and if so is it working both ways, it's a very new concept in football and one we seem to be embroiled in, if anything it highlights we are an experiment and that does have grounds for concern, Yet is that based on just fear of change rather than facts, the turnover of players is very much an issue, bit we seem to be doing it without getting burnt to badly financially. It's a very interesting subject
Of the five players I named, four are still on the books.
Work in all honesty, over the last 11 months I am away due to work virtually the whole week, if I am not away from home 18/20 hr days are the norm, any time I get off I spend either recharging at home or running around with the kids,
It also became un enjoyable, the crowd was becoming less identifiable with me, no time given to our own youth players coming through to make mistakes and learn before they were deemed shit or out of depth, cafc fans moan like spurs fans now, we have started to act like we should be top 6 prem, when really I are a small family club in Sth London who in reality are a championship club at best,
It lost its grip on my sat, none of this I attribute to Rd or his era it was there before him only loyalty to pals and using sat as an excuse to get on it was more important, two young kids later and that became less important,
Pete f and mick e have mentioned it, I believe that jacko was insinuating it in his comments also
Below is our squad this season without loanees out how many do we think are worse than those in their postition last season, also I have marked those who have nothing to do with the data analysis route
1. Stephen Henderson 3. Ahmed Kashi 4. Johnnie Jackson (b4rd) 5. Patrick Bauer 6. Naby Sarr 7. Johann Berg Gudmundsson 8. Jordan Cousins (b4rd) 9. Simon Makienok 10. Cristian Ceballos 11. Callum Harriott (b4rd) 12. Alou Diarra 14. Igor Vetokele 15. Reza Ghoochannejhad 17. Tareiq Holmes-Dennis (b4rd) 18. Karlan Ahearne-Grant (b4rd) 19. Zakarya Bergdich 20. Chris Solly (b4rd) 21. Morgan Fox (b4rd) 22. El-Hadji Ba 24. Regan Charles-Cook (b4rd) 26. Harry Lennon (b4rd) 27. Dimitar Mitov 30. Nick Pope (b4rd)
I am not denying we are in a scrap and the third division champ squad was a brilliantly put together squad, however that was after a shit year and was for the league below us currently,
I am more interested in just how bad the data analysis system is and how it is working
I think the bloke in Belgium buying all our players , needs a new lap top for Christmas.
His current strategy is to buy players who have been injured or have under performed their potential shove them into a division where you play a large number of games, hope one or 2 shine, sell them on for profit...
Bring in the youth, hope some shine, sell them on for profit...
If we are there or there about come December splash a bit more money and gamble on potential promotion...
keep all other costs low, cheap mangers who won't kick off at the ridiculous strategy, better suited to the microchip industry as opposed to tiresome and unpredictable Human industry that is football...
Rinse and Repeat...
No chance to connect with a player or team ALA Johnnie Jackson or the glory years of championship promotion, where we loved and felt connected to almost the entire squad...
Boring as bat shit... no wonder everyone is leaving and not returning...
He can change his mind and bend the rules to this framework but overall this is a like or lump it strategy...
Thats exactly it, I am trying to understand how the whole thing works and is it something we own or is it something we have signed up to and is being used by other clubs, not Rd clubs but others and if so who and how is it working for them, its a very alien concept to me and the English way of football but that doesnt mean it wont work, which is what makes it so interesting
When we used to develop youth, that product, would very often end up in the side and in many cases for years on end, Parker, Konchesky, Lisbie(:/) since we have fallen we have sold on a few products Gomez, Shelvey, and The arsenal and now West Ham right back (name escapes me) and we as fans are obviously looking and wanting to get back to that stage and that level.
The ambition of this man is different to The ethos of the club, it has changed under Roland, the strategy laid out is not, for a large number of fans, anything close to the Charlton they have known and supported for decades and are hence we are frustrated.
Football has changed and the riches that come with it, solly, waggstaff, Harriot, cousins all came in and stayed in the team, those who are better technical players left, poyet,shelvey,jenkinson, gomez,
The ambition of the club under RM worked culminating in a lengthy stay in the prem, however that strategy resulted in us needing RD in the first place the very thing many are moaning about,
To me it is that RD is not pumping loads of his own money into the club to give hope ams chance to being one of the 3 clubs that goes up, and all this on top of the 7yrs solid break down and decline of the club and it's values that identified it with us all, player sales and under investment in every area of the club we has games called off because we didn't have a pitch that could take an inch of water this was a club I no longer recognised, we had become a huge laughing stock yet no one protested no one had this anger, someone comes in solves those problems and because they choose to try a different route (rightly or wrongly) we have this ground swell of displeasure,
I could understand protests based on all of the above but not based solely on RDs contribution to the whole thing, if he was still influencing picking the team I think I could understand that, but he doesn't seem to be doing that anymore from the outside,
Watt in this case is the main person responsible for this move to Cardiff not the club, and I don't think any Mgr in the last 15 yrs would have got the tune out of him he should be playing week in week out
Work in all honesty, over the last 11 months I am away due to work virtually the whole week, if I am not away from home 18/20 hr days are the norm, any time I get off I spend either recharging at home or running around with the kids,
It also became un enjoyable, the crowd was becoming less identifiable with me, no time given to our own youth players coming through to make mistakes and learn before they were deemed shit or out of depth, cafc fans moan like spurs fans now, we have started to act like we should be top 6 prem, when really I are a small family club in Sth London who in reality are a championship club at best,
It lost its grip on my sat, none of this I attribute to Rd or his era it was there before him only loyalty to pals and using sat as an excuse to get on it was more important, two young kids later and that became less important,
That doesnt matter though if they were scouted using the data analysis, I wish I had been mysrlf this season and more last to judge but I havent but on paper the squad looks more balanced and competitive to the one that started last season
Pete f and mick e have mentioned it, I believe that jacko was insinuating it in his comments also
Below is our squad this season without loanees out how many do we think are worse than those in their postition last season, also I have marked those who have nothing to do with the data analysis route
1. Stephen Henderson 3. Ahmed Kashi 4. Johnnie Jackson (b4rd) 5. Patrick Bauer 6. Naby Sarr 7. Johann Berg Gudmundsson 8. Jordan Cousins (b4rd) 9. Simon Makienok 10. Cristian Ceballos 11. Callum Harriott (b4rd) 12. Alou Diarra 14. Igor Vetokele 15. Reza Ghoochannejhad 17. Tareiq Holmes-Dennis (b4rd) 18. Karlan Ahearne-Grant (b4rd) 19. Zakarya Bergdich 20. Chris Solly (b4rd) 21. Morgan Fox (b4rd) 22. El-Hadji Ba 24. Regan Charles-Cook (b4rd) 26. Harry Lennon (b4rd) 27. Dimitar Mitov 30. Nick Pope (b4rd)
Can I compare it to pre-RD too?
Yeah definitely that's why I put b4rd next to the players that were here when he arrived, it's difficult going back to far as if we compared it to season on season we would end up with the squad of 98 vs the sqd of 2000,
It is easy to say it doesn't work H but how do you reach that opinion, I am not saying you are wrong but quantify it, the only way to do that surely is to highlight where we have lost players and replaced them with weaker players due to the system,
How else can it be measured as successful or a failing concept
Comments
Dangerously he will also not take a loss, obviously... so long term when this experiment fails I have massive fears for the club...
For such a seemingly emotional bloke I'd hope you'd appreciate the benefit of the views of people who have actually been at matches and seen what's going on with their own eyes.
Unfortunately, like so many generally online, I fear you've become one of those posters who enjoys writing comments that are the opposite of the majority for the sake of it and the thrill of somehow thinking you're seeing things others aren't. Every dissenting view in some way feeding your burgeoning online ego.
If you love this club, then how can you disregard the views of so many on here who have been so unwavering in their support in the past? At least consider them without bleating out the same message again and again when you're not even coming to matches. The despair and apathy in the crowd is hard to convey when you're not actually there experiencing it.
I'd take a step back and have a think about why so many people, from such diverse backgrounds, have all come to the same conclusions. (even when we're winning!!)
I'm not sure why you can't make it to the ground this season but you sure do find enough time to post on every thread that's questioning the current ownership, repeatedly, with the same comments ad nauseam.
it seems to me that not only do players get shelved and moved on very quickly but the mgrs dont get long either to fix bad runs, as with peeters luzon started well but as soon as he hit a bad patch he was gone, that allows the next mgr to come in and have time and games to put it right, now with KF if he has the good bits riga had and yet brings his own ideas with it things could and should pick up quickly and we should in theory finish quite strongly, its not December yet so there is a long way to go
I may not see the issues that many do but theres people I speak to who go home and away that dont see them either so it is not because I aint there that its not affecting my view, I saw the start of the season the same people getting angry now over our postition feeling very positive, nothing had changed from that point to this other than results, if recruitment is an issue now it was then, yet it wasnt really shouted about,
Km and her decisions were criticised when luzon was employed yet his results had peoples questioning of his appointment wain so much he became popular
I am not trawling to wind up its trying to understand the issues and have them laid out to Me,
So far the only thing I can establish is no one really knows what they want to achieve through the protests other than to remove km, but what would it solve Rd will find another km
And a change in recruitment policy, but if the policy is not as poor as some state and player for player we are not worse off then changing the recruitment isnt going to solve it
So what are the issues and whats the resolutions as of yet I am struggling to see them, the only one that is a concern to me is this stats analysis and how its relied on, as to me its removing the human element, but what if he is right and what if others are doing it but it took time to get good at understanding the information, does that explain the high turnover of players,
I hope that explains and shows I am not trying to troll just asking non popular questions
His current strategy is to buy players who have been injured or have under performed their potential shove them into a division where you play a large number of games, hope one or 2 shine, sell them on for profit...
Bring in the youth, hope some shine, sell them on for profit...
If we are there or there about come December splash a bit more money and gamble on potential promotion...
keep all other costs low, cheap mangers who won't kick off at the ridiculous strategy, better suited to the microchip industry as opposed to tiresome and unpredictable Human industry that is football...
Rinse and Repeat...
No chance to connect with a player or team ALA Johnnie Jackson or the glory years of championship promotion, where we loved and felt connected to almost the entire squad...
Boring as bat shit... no wonder everyone is leaving and not returning...
He can change his mind and bend the rules to this framework but overall this is a like or lump it strategy...
Its a fair analogy of how some see it, and how they state it on here but here is my issue with it as of yet we havent sold any of the players signed that had in the past under performed or been injured for any sort of profit, and if they come good then surely thats a positive although its not going to excite or envoke positive hopes for promotion and seems tight fisted
We have always sold youth players or anyone we turn into a good player and always will, we are not attractive enough nor a big enough club to not do this unfortunately, so by investing in the infrastructure is it not a bettervway of bringing them through and developing them to fund better signings than mentioned above and to potentially add to a decent squad exactly what may be needed for promotion
I can not disagree with the mgr situation but if his vision is how you and I both see it bringing in soneone who cant work within it would be counter productive and so far we have not been relegated from the championship and you could say that his intention is that scenerio as a minimum he deems as some form of evidence that he is correct and as such he wont change there
Keeping to a low budget is surely his right its his money, he has though invested in the ground and it looks like he is supporting change at training ground, I can suffer tight budgets elsewhere if we have a decent ground, youth programme and training facilities as a trade off it also might not be enough to engage promotion ambition but it does say stability in the infrastructure
Unfortunately it is a like it or lump it strategy but no one was really queing up to buy us before him that was any good and unless people can bring others Rd the table its his ball, his goals his players his rules
Does it make it right I dont know but does it make him wrong I dont know that either
The ambition of this man is different to The ethos of the club, it has changed under Roland, the strategy laid out is not, for a large number of fans, anything close to the Charlton they have known and supported for decades and are hence we are frustrated.
Yes it is his money, and yes he can do what he likes, but with an approach based on non attachment to players using a develop and grow your value or your out, ala Watt today even, to fit budget for Vaz Te and zero opportunity to get to know and love a player, is not what most want or have been involved with in the past, a player like Watt needs support. Also this approach will not work anyway, all the real success' of this club have been built on stability and a developed, slow growth, a team has been built and then added to over time, there is no chance of that happening with this system.
Most people would much prefer money being spent on the team than on the training ground… we pay money to watch the team…
Is it better then being bust, yes is it an approach most people are after and support, no.
You can only think that with the recent rise of Lookman, that Watt's continued presence, was even less essential to those at the top.
From the outside, it sounds like he has a bit of an attitude problem, and as someone like Ravel Morrison could probably agree, you can change as many clubs as you like, but sometimes the only solutions lie within.
We know that RD is a data man, a mathematician. We also hear that he isn't the most personally empathetic person on the planet. He may be under-estimating the human element of team sport, because of this. But he might buy an argument that data alone cannot predict performance - if somebody used a data based argument to demonstrate that, if you see what I mean...
It also became un enjoyable, the crowd was becoming less identifiable with me, no time given to our own youth players coming through to make mistakes and learn before they were deemed shit or out of depth, cafc fans moan like spurs fans now, we have started to act like we should be top 6 prem, when really I are a small family club in Sth London who in reality are a championship club at best,
It lost its grip on my sat, none of this I attribute to Rd or his era it was there before him only loyalty to pals and using sat as an excuse to get on it was more important, two young kids later and that became less important,
The ambition of the club under RM worked culminating in a lengthy stay in the prem, however that strategy resulted in us needing RD in the first place the very thing many are moaning about,
To me it is that RD is not pumping loads of his own money into the club to give hope ams chance to being one of the 3 clubs that goes up, and all this on top of the 7yrs solid break down and decline of the club and it's values that identified it with us all, player sales and under investment in every area of the club we has games called off because we didn't have a pitch that could take an inch of water this was a club I no longer recognised, we had become a huge laughing stock yet no one protested no one had this anger, someone comes in solves those problems and because they choose to try a different route (rightly or wrongly) we have this ground swell of displeasure,
I could understand protests based on all of the above but not based solely on RDs contribution to the whole thing, if he was still influencing picking the team I think I could understand that, but he doesn't seem to be doing that anymore from the outside,
Watt in this case is the main person responsible for this move to Cardiff not the club, and I don't think any Mgr in the last 15 yrs would have got the tune out of him he should be playing week in week out
It is easy to say it doesn't work H but how do you reach that opinion, I am not saying you are wrong but quantify it, the only way to do that surely is to highlight where we have lost players and replaced them with weaker players due to the system,
How else can it be measured as successful or a failing concept