Your's is a reasonable observation @suzisausage and is something which needs addressing, if possible, on the next flyer from CARD. Most of those involved in the leaflet distribution pre match on Saturday encountered a 'better the devil you know and what's the alternative' response from the small minority of naysayers. So reverting to the Spell It Out in Black and White theme, these questions and the background to the whole 'Get them Out' objective need addressing In timeline, short, sharp, bullet point style.
I could have a go but there are far better scribes on here than me with a much more appealing style of presentation and flair.
As Grapevine said on another thread the naysayers are not our enemies they are our future allies and need to be converted but we must accept there will always be detractors and that is their choice.
Again was there at the front but was dissapointed to see so many from the west stand just walk on by oblivious. Don't they care.
Yep I was there, I guess that we have to accept that some people don't want to be a part of our protest, which is their choice. However Myself my son and his girlfriend all stood shoulder to shoulder with other fans to demonstrate against the owner etc and we're proud to do so. We will continue to do whatever is necessary to get RD out of our club. Not all west stand supporters are oblivious but I too am disappointed and saddened by the lack of protest support from this area of the ground.
All around me in the West stood up and sang. The guy next to me who I chat with didn't. He spouted the argument if who else would want us so we are stuck with RD therefore protesting is pointless.
I told him about Varneys emails and the knowledge amongst some that there would be interested parties should he be willing to sell up.
I think this is the biggest reason why some supporters are not joining the campaign - the thought that there is no other option.
My dad sits in west and doesn't understand why people are protesting and does say 'who else will come in?' He said he got a leaflet but said it was a load of tosh when I asked him yesterday, I didn't delve any further as didn't want an argument and I was more concerned to find out whether my 89 yr old grandad got out of the lower west ok to get to the hospital to visit my nan before the protest began.
Having been away and being busy at work I've not had time to read everything, I am struggling to find things to say to change his mind which makes me think other non-social network/forum supporting charlton fans might also feel this way. Is there a comprehensive list of reasons why there are protests or why we want them out? (I'm sure there is I just don't know where to look) but I'd at least like to give my dad the list to read so he can make up his mind knowing more information.
He obviously isn't happy with recent results on the pitch, but he accepts that is part and parcel of football, you can't win all the time etc. He finds it a bit bonkers appointing a previous manager, but as he believes he was the better of the bunch we've had so far, he can see the reasons why he's back, rather than seeing the negative in the reappointment.
Don't shoot me for this next paragraph, I'm just trying to be honest, but having stood back and read a lot of the discussions rather than commenting, I do think there is a 'hype' has been whipped up because so many of you are so absorbed in all things CAFC. (which isn't wrong btw!) I am supportive of what you are trying to achieve and the PV stuff definately swayed me over to that way of thinking, but I think this is why i find it hard to explain the why's and what's to my dad, as I'm probably a little confused myself. I do find once some of you made your mind up that Katrien & Roland were 'bad', you have then read into every minor decision, statement, decision to suit your way of thinking, when sometimes, it may not be so sinister. I'm not defending some of the decisions they have made, but I'm just trying to work out in my mind from a distance what I think about the whole thing. As I said, I am further removed, and less emotionally attached compared to what I used to be (no ST etc) and I am a lot more relaxed about it these days, I let losses wash over me, instead of letting it ruin my whole weekend. This didnt just start when Katrien & Roland came in either so can't blame them for falling out of love with my club.
Suzi, I think your last paragraph sums up the PR issues that are going to be key moving forward.
Apart from demanding the removal of KM and RD there seems to be no coherent message coming out that explains just what has gone wrong. I have been unhappy at games for a while but I doubt I would eloquently explain why. The results have been poor but until Colchester in the cup they were just relegation form and we did spend three years in the third division recently and haven't spent a lot of money on players so it seems logical that we would be near the bottom of the table. Despite these results and the underinvestment in the squad the club is running up debts. This makes it easy for those on the outside looking in wondering just what Charlton fans want. Is it more of someone else's money spent on their team? If so, this is, essentially, what all other fans want.
Every time I've had a conversation with someone that supports the protests, and after all the time I spend on here I still don't know, exactly, what the protests are for, save what all football fans want, which is more money spent on the club/team and better results as a consequence. I hear lots of comments that are, in isolation, undesirable like RD interfering in the team selection, and RD not caring if we lose as long as his players stats are good, but none of this, even when added together, makes our issues look very different from the rest of the football world.
I'm not an apologist for the club and I'm more than happy for RD and KM to move on, especially if we can find someone that will drop £150m on our club for us, but despite having read most of the media stories, and seen football pundits talk about us, without actually saying much, I am still not convinced that I know what the specific issue is beyond poor recruitment in the manager and some of the players. For example, selling young talented players to balance the books is what all clubs have to do, including Man Utd and Chelsea. It's also what Charlton have done for most of the time I've been watching them. Undesirable as it is, it is a fact of life.
For the reasons above, and in line with what Suzi says I think there will always be some fans that just don't get it, and will be asking what all the fuss is about.
Again was there at the front but was dissapointed to see so many from the west stand just walk on by oblivious. Don't they care.
We have to respect the views of those who are either happy with the way the club is run or, more likely, just want to turn up and watch and then go. It's as much their right to do that as it ours to protest and both views should be respected. At the end of the day, we are all Charlton supporters and will be here long after Roland has died and Meire has become a middle-aged failed executive with a string of corporate balls-ups to her name.
All around me in the West stood up and sang. The guy next to me who I chat with didn't. He spouted the argument if who else would want us so we are stuck with RD therefore protesting is pointless.
I told him about Varneys emails and the knowledge amongst some that there would be interested parties should he be willing to sell up.
I think this is the biggest reason why some supporters are not joining the campaign - the thought that there is no other option.
My dad sits in west and doesn't understand why people are protesting and does say 'who else will come in?' He said he got a leaflet but said it was a load of tosh when I asked him yesterday, I didn't delve any further as didn't want an argument and I was more concerned to find out whether my 89 yr old grandad got out of the lower west ok to get to the hospital to visit my nan before the protest began.
Having been away and being busy at work I've not had time to read everything, I am struggling to find things to say to change his mind which makes me think other non-social network/forum supporting charlton fans might also feel this way. Is there a comprehensive list of reasons why there are protests or why we want them out? (I'm sure there is I just don't know where to look) but I'd at least like to give my dad the list to read so he can make up his mind knowing more information.
He obviously isn't happy with recent results on the pitch, but he accepts that is part and parcel of football, you can't win all the time etc. He finds it a bit bonkers appointing a previous manager, but as he believes he was the better of the bunch we've had so far, he can see the reasons why he's back, rather than seeing the negative in the reappointment.
Don't shoot me for this next paragraph, I'm just trying to be honest, but having stood back and read a lot of the discussions rather than commenting, I do think there is a 'hype' has been whipped up because so many of you are so absorbed in all things CAFC. (which isn't wrong btw!) I am supportive of what you are trying to achieve and the PV stuff definately swayed me over to that way of thinking, but I think this is why i find it hard to explain the why's and what's to my dad, as I'm probably a little confused myself. I do find once some of you made your mind up that Katrien & Roland were 'bad', you have then read into every minor decision, statement, decision to suit your way of thinking, when sometimes, it may not be so sinister. I'm not defending some of the decisions they have made, but I'm just trying to work out in my mind from a distance what I think about the whole thing. As I said, I am further removed, and less emotionally attached compared to what I used to be (no ST etc) and I am a lot more relaxed about it these days, I let losses wash over me, instead of letting it ruin my whole weekend. This didnt just start when Katrien & Roland came in either so can't blame them for falling out of love with my club.
Suzi, I think your last paragraph sums up the PR issues that are going to be key moving forward.
Apart from demanding the removal of KM and RD there seems to be no coherent message coming out that explains just what has gone wrong. I have been unhappy at games for a while but I doubt I would eloquently explain why. The results have been poor but until Colchester in the cup they were just relegation form and we did spend three years in the third division recently and haven't spent a lot of money on players so it seems logical that we would be near the bottom of the table. Despite these results and the underinvestment in the squad the club is running up debts. This makes it easy for those on the outside looking in wondering just what Charlton fans want. Is it more of someone else's money spent on their team? If so, this is, essentially, what all other fans want.
Every time I've had a conversation with someone that supports the protests, and after all the time I spend on here I still don't know, exactly, what the protests are for, save what all football fans want, which is more money spent on the club/team and better results as a consequence. I hear lots of comments that are, in isolation, undesirable like RD interfering in the team selection, and RD not caring if we lose as long as his players stats are good, but none of this, even when added together, makes our issues look very different from the rest of the football world.
I'm not an apologist for the club and I'm more than happy for RD and KM to move on, especially if we can find someone that will drop £150m on our club for us, but despite having read most of the media stories, and seen football pundits talk about us, without actually saying much, I am still not convinced that I know what the specific issue is beyond poor recruitment in the manager and some of the players. For example, selling young talented players to balance the books is what all clubs have to do, including Man Utd and Chelsea. It's also what Charlton have done for most of the time I've been watching them. Undesirable as it is, it is a fact of life.
For the reasons above, and in line with what Suzi says I think there will always be some fans that just don't get it, and will be asking what all the fuss is about.
I don't think it's very difficult or about money. It is about not being very good at what they are doing, on or off the pitch. This is a function not just of the unworkable business model but the very poor execution of it by inadequate leadership and management, resulting in poor communication and failure to achieve goals (in both senses!). The reason people find it difficult to say what's wrong is that it's just about everything.
In a normal business, this would result in a) early replacement of the management or ultimately b) insolvency. RD is an obstacle to both, so things that would normally be corrected in the short term are allowed to continue. Consequently you have a "customer" revolt.
Thought everything was positive on Saturday, most were happy to take a leaflet, think the message is definately getting across. Only dissenting comment I had was 'you're just a sheep mate' which I replied 'bbbbaaaaaaa'. Seemed to confuse him !
Thought everything was positive on Saturday, most were happy to take a leaflet, think the message is definately getting across. Only dissenting comment I had was 'you're just a sheep mate' which I replied 'bbbbaaaaaaa'. Seemed to confuse him !
I am in a similar position to Suzi as I don't go any more due to work. In my job a meet a lot of people everyday and quite a few Charlton fans and to back up AFKA's observations the middle aged blokes really do not have an interest in the protests. I keep hearing things like "Well they got us out of debt" and "We've had a lot of poor owners over the years, this lot are no worse.....". One regular who comes in before every home game was totally unaware of the protest movement until very recently. I really do thing there is a link between those who use social media and are active or at least concerned with the situation. Having said that there are still plenty who do come in and are not happy and have got involved, but they do tend to be younger. I will continue to try and educate the rest.
I have suggested that a leaflet with 10 or so bullet points, clearly identifying the main issues we have with the regime might be produced for the next home game.
This would be mainly aimed at those without social media channels & who for one reason or another don't buy VOTV.
I feel this could go a long way towards clarifying the issue and would give the facts for the doubters to consider.
BTW, it's obvious that some fans haven't heard about PV's investors, hence the question " Who would buy us ?"
That, in itself is a good enough reason for an informative, unemotional leaflet.
I have suggested that a leaflet with 10 or so bullet points, clearly identifying the main issues we have with the regime might be produced for the next home game.
This would be mainly aimed at those without social media channels & who for one reason or another don't buy VOTV.
I feel this could go a long way towards clarifying the issue and would give the facts for the doubters to consider.
BTW, it's obvious that some fans haven't heard about PV's investors, hence the question " Who would buy us ?"
That, in itself is a good enough reason for an informative, unemotional leaflet.
Think some of these people don't know things because they are not that interested. The Varney approach has been quite widely discussed in newspapers and on the radio, as well as being all over the internet. If people are so disconnected from media around the club I am not sure they are going to take any notice of a a flyer, but in any event the Trust News plans to address these issues on Feb 13th.
We don't need all supporters on our side, we have the majority i would say now! what we need is to get ROLLAND OUT! all focus should be on this not gathering more support.
Keep putting the info we already have out, and lets put media pressure on the regime, more will follow themselves.
Remember we are the majority now not the minority!
The more people we can get onside the better but we don't need to convert 100% of fans to have an impact.
In the same way the food and drink boycott was a success even if 100% of fans didn't join in. It works if it hurts the caterers and so the club's income.
It a common marketing model that 10% will love a product regardless (people who queue outside Apple all night), 40% will buy the new IPhone soon, another 40% will buy the iPhone when their current contract expires if the reviews are good and 10% will never buy an iPhone regardless.
So the battle isn't to convert the last 10% of Colin's. We already have the first 10% ie the early adopters.
It's the 80% in the middle. I was in the first 40% critical but giving them a chance. Others like Greenie and Valley Gary were in the second 40% supportive of the regime and not convinced by the critics.
Anecdotal evidence suggests that most of the 80% are now in the anti - camp. Not all but from how many stand up to get them out or take leaflets or even voice support on here a large number of the middle 80% are with Roland Out.
You will never convert the 10% such as Colin so no point trying.
Aim for last 40% who are concerned by can't see an alternative or how they can change anything
I have suggested that a leaflet with 10 or so bullet points, clearly identifying the main issues we have with the regime might be produced for the next home game.
This would be mainly aimed at those without social media channels & who for one reason or another don't buy VOTV.
I feel this could go a long way towards clarifying the issue and would give the facts for the doubters to consider.
BTW, it's obvious that some fans haven't heard about PV's investors, hence the question " Who would buy us ?"
That, in itself is a good enough reason for an informative, unemotional leaflet.
This is pretty much what I was going to suggest actually, almost like an easily digestible 'FAQ'. Great minds!
We don't need all supporters on our side, we have the majority i would say now! what we need is to get ROLLAND OUT! all focus should be on this not gathering more support.
Keep putting the info we already have out, and lets put media pressure on the regime, more will follow themselves.
Remember we are the majority now not the minority!
There are probably fans at Blackpool who think Oysten has done nothing wrong. Strange but probably likely. Same at Villa, Leeds etc with their owners. You will never get 100% support on wanting our owners out, like that you will still get people who will purchase merchandise, food/drink from the club but if the ones that believe in it, that we can get our club back and keep carrying on in the same manner we won't lose.
We won't force them out tomorrow, but keep chipping away and one day they will get the message and go.
My dad is obviously not 'supportive' of the protests, not because he disagrees, but because he doesn't understand. He isn't aware of what you're protesting about. There is a difference. I'd make up a percentage of those I think are indifferent but I dont think throwing around guesstimates is particularly helpful(!). It just builds a template for others to quote as a fact.
I have to say, I can see my dad's point sometimes. It would be great to introduce a one page document, thanks Fanny, explaining what the owners/ceo have done 'wrong' to perhaps make him think, and then make up his mind. He and others can't be criticised or ignored because they don't know of/about something. There is a difference if he chooses to disagree with it?
He is CAFC through and through, and I dont think he needs to go on a forum, read VOTV, watch BBC clips online, join a facebook fan group to justify that. He has had a season ticket for years, he pays into Valley Gold and he buys a programme every match. Why would he think anything with the 'regime' is wrong? (except for the football results which cannot be guaranteed no matter how much money is spent in reality!?)
Mainly because the recruitment of the small pool of managers is so ridiculous and damaging. That is the biggest gripe for a lot of fans who don't read online.
I wasn't in any way criticising your dad or saying he wasn't a proper fan.
I was only saying that no campaign for any product or campaign will reach 100% of the target audience and neither would 100% ever support it.
So the campaign doesn't need to convince everyone.
Your dad is most likely in the 2nd 40%. To reach him and others not on social media who don't yet have enough info CARD need to vary the comms. Fanny's idea of a FAQ for example.
@suzisausage , everyone has their different reasons imo. I tried to get mine down a couple of mnths ago on the first two posts here when doing the 2% protest.
Since then, i feel things have escalated in a number of ways.
- An inadequate and poorly assembled squad has manifested itself. We have won 2 games in 26, and none in our last twelve.
- An inadequate management change was so bad, they had to sack him before they even got a chance to announce him. It was the most ludicrous appointment you could ever imagine as his experience should have had him absolutely nowhere near managing a Championship club, and showed just how bonkers the football decision making aspects of the Club are. Were it not for the fans becoming increasingly irate, and the players stopped putting in a full shift, they still would not have changed even if results had stayed the same.
- The Chief Executive (who was given a lot of leeway at first and support because she is a young woman) has handled pretty much everything she has been involved with incorrectly and helped create a situation where many of those connected to the club are seen as the enemy because that is exactly how they seem to view a big percentage of their paying 'customers'. The article in the Belgium press which was disrespectful to older supporters, was followed up with the recorded quotes at that Dublin seminar which was disrespectful to all supporters. Amazingly, everything seems to always be taken out of context, or everyone else doesn't understand. Those are all little things that could so easily be avoided, but just seem to rile the situation, like the stupidity of making a show in front of the protesters, taking pictures etc.
- There is a complete ignorance to making changes when it is clear the majority of supporters don't like the decisions that are made. That goes from big things like not giving the chance to a British manager when it is clear that every foreign manager hasn't worked out, to little things like wanted the team lists back on the screen, or the removing of the sofa etc. As seen from the recordings of the fans meeting, this is never ever going to be a 'connected club' like it once was. You either like what you are given, or you walk away. And now we are seeing the heavy handed approach to those voicing displeasure, or taking pictures.
- Charlton as a club has little going for it in the grand scheme of things. Its USP was that it is a welcoming club, had strong fan involvement and good connection between those running the club and those supporting it. Everyone pulling together in the same direction. That faded a little under the last management, and has accelerated under this one. If it isn't addressed soon, i can't see it ever coming back. The attendance for a sunny Saturday just gone was 5,000 down on the average the season before RD bought the club. Next season will see another big fall in season ticket numbers, regardless if we stay up or go down. We are going backwards as a club and it is owned by someone that doesn't seem particularly bothered about it in any way whatsoever.
I personally see no positives to this 'relationship' going forward, even if in the short-term they ship in a couple of better players to keep us up last year.
Interesting to note that a guy with a clip board was out hawking teas, coffees and food to the disabled supporters and their helpers during the first half.
This does not normally happen.
I assume it was due to low revenue from kiosks.
Also before the game a group of youngsters were marched past the Covered End round to the East Stand where the photographer who accompanied them made them bunch up (i guess to make it look a packed crowd) took photos while they waved their flags & they were then taken to seats in the east stand but the flags were taken away from them & taken down the players tunnel. Never seen that carry on before, guess it will appear on some advertising somewhere for the "Charlton Experience"
Did any one get this Question thrown at them Yesterday ?
I guess you could call this a alternative view.
"That the reason Peter Varney revealed, or sent the emails, was he was negotiating his contract at Ebbsfleet at the time and wanted Leverage"
I said the most important thing was regardless of Peter Varney's intentions, was his impressive CV demanded a 30 minutes meeting or else Reply to the 1st email with a thank you, but no thank you. Even a teenage intern on a business course, job placement from uni, should realize that.
Is that what the liar was telling people in crossbars on saturday ? Gullible idiots!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't believe people continue to put money into the Belgians pocket by keep going into the place anyway.
Did any one get this Question thrown at them Yesterday ?
I guess you could call this a alternative view.
"That the reason Peter Varney revealed, or sent the emails, was he was negotiating his contract at Ebbsfleet at the time and wanted Leverage"
I said the most important thing was regardless of Peter Varney's intentions, was his impressive CV demanded a 30 minutes meeting or else Reply to the 1st email with a thank you, but no thank you. Even a teenage intern on a business course, job placement from uni, should realize that.
Is that what the liar was telling people in crossbars on saturday ? Gullible idiots!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't believe people continue to put money into the Belgians pocket by keep going into the place anyway.
WTF are you talking about Bob ?
If it was Katrien saying that and i was in Crossbars, i would say so, I was in Charlton Park when my son told me so had a Coffee from the cafe there, and that was my lot until i got home at 7.20.
The guy who put that point of view was about 40, and thou i was shocked to hear it ,the spell it out in black and white is a 2 way street, So that's why it was good to hear Airman's reply on this thread.
Interesting to note that a guy with a clip board was out hawking teas, coffees and food to the disabled supporters and their helpers during the first half.
This does not normally happen.
I assume it was due to low revenue from kiosks.
Also before the game a group of youngsters were marched past the Covered End round to the East Stand where the photographer who accompanied them made them bunch up (i guess to make it look a packed crowd) took photos while they waved their flags & they were then taken to seats in the east stand but the flags were taken away from them & taken down the players tunnel. Never seen that carry on before, guess it will appear on some advertising somewhere for the "Charlton Experience"
This happens before every game, The youngster parade the flags in front of the East Stand at about 2.45 after the players have left the pitch.
Being a bit " I know best" and I apologise for that, but the decisions and actions of KM are disgraceful and certainly demonstrate she is not a suitable CEO for our club.RD is perusing an ideology that is not working and he is not prepared to accept that. His ideology is bad for Charlton. i understand and respect that some do not wish to support the protests but I cannot comprehend how RD and KM are seen as good for the club. I am over 60 and have supported the club for over 50 years, I am getting information from social media with sites such as this. Others may not follow social media so they do not have the information. It is, therefore necessary to use all formats to get the message over. A contribution to the aim of " we want our Charlton back" is to have as many as possible involved. I accepted when we have been poor and relegated before as " that happens" but cannot accept being treated with contempt by KM and having RD persuing strategies that we all know are not working. Thanks to all organising and participating in the protests.
My dad is obviously not 'supportive' of the protests, not because he disagrees, but because he doesn't understand. He isn't aware of what you're protesting about. There is a difference. I'd make up a percentage of those I think are indifferent but I dont think throwing around guesstimates is particularly helpful(!). It just builds a template for others to quote as a fact.
I have to say, I can see my dad's point sometimes. It would be great to introduce a one page document, thanks Fanny, explaining what the owners/ceo have done 'wrong' to perhaps make him think, and then make up his mind. He and others can't be criticised or ignored because they don't know of/about something. There is a difference if he chooses to disagree with it?
He is CAFC through and through, and I dont think he needs to go on a forum, read VOTV, watch BBC clips online, join a facebook fan group to justify that. He has had a season ticket for years, he pays into Valley Gold and he buys a programme every match. Why would he think anything with the 'regime' is wrong? (except for the football results which cannot be guaranteed no matter how much money is spent in reality!?)
Hi Suzi, I'm guessing from your posts on this thread that your Dad & I are around the same age and will therefore have experienced the same highs & lows, different owners etc., here are my thoughts of our current owner and my reasons for supporting the protests and #RolandOut.
I'm sure your Dad understands as much as I do about RD's vision in wanting to apply his business model to making Charlton a decent Championship outfit and with a bit of a following wind, for us to get into the Premier. In earlier days I "signed up" to that as did many others but the further we got into his way of doing things the more I saw a worrying gap between his vision and reality.
Let's look at the "outside chance of getting into the Premier" first. Frankly, I don't see that we have a snowballs chance of that happening under this owner. The coaches and players we have now and have had under his leadership are, in my opinion, below the quality we had when he took over and we had no chance of getting into the Premier then either, not without upgrading the quality of the squad nd that's not really happening is it?
So as far as the Premier notion goes, we've seen nothing from RD to suggest that this is anywhere in our future?
During mine and your Dad's time with Charlton we have mostly been a 2nd tier club, so having a decent 2nd tier outfit is clearly something we're OK with, let's look at where RD is with that.
In the footballing sense the best that could be argued for RD is that we're no worse off than were were and have been under previous owners. Even if this were true, so what? I don't think the quality of football currently being served up remotely resembles decent Championship football. In fact, ever since RD has been in charge, our Championship status has consistently been under threat.
So here we have an owner who's not delivered his vision yet, in terms of either the Championship or the Premier, how and when will he do so?
The only way the vision will be achieved is through results on the pitch, this will lead to gains in revenue and if that revenue is wisely managed, the vision will be achieved and perhaps sustainable.
Results on the pitch come about through good quality coaching, good academy talent coming through and better quality players coming into the squad.
Personally I don't believe our coaching staff are good enough. I think Riga's the best of the bunch we've had under RD but after he left us the last time he didn't exactly set the world on fire. Wim is another clear case of under-recruitment, his credentials and experience are not decent Championship quality. Jason Euell is so new to the coaching scene that I'd have to say he doesn't yet have enough coaching experience to be classed as a serious coaching asset. How many decent Championship clubs would do a straight coaching swap, our for theirs?
We've had good academy talent coming through at Charlton for years now so I don't give RD any credit for the current crop. In fact, I think he's in danger of ruining some or all of them. Your Dad will know that great academy clubs like Crewe, Arsenal and Southampton nurture their youngsters. They protect them physically and mentally in the way they coach and use them, the accepted wisdom being that if you don't do that, you ruin them. It's my belief that we're ruining our youngsters by giving them too large a role in the first team squad, they are getting too much game time added with the added pressure and stress that comes with facing the threat of relegation. Not only will this hurt the current crop it will surely make parents of potential future recruits think twice before giving their sons to Charlton.
Do we have a squad which is being upgraded in quality? Given our position in the league, I'd say not. Have I seen anything which leads me to believe RD has serious intent to change this any time soon? No.
So on all 3 counts, coaching, academy and player quality he fails, his reality isn't going to help him achieve his vision. How can he achieve his vision then? For me the answer is he can't, not unless he changes his model. Has there been anything in his way of running things to lead me to believe he will change his model? Not at all, in fact he sounds like someone who is very steadfast, someone who doesn't change his public philosophy.
There we have it Suzi. A vision I buy into but absolutely nothing to make me believe the vision will be realized in any shape or form.
Now I'd like to add into the mix another important fact, which the level of debt RD is layering on the club. I'm no financial wiz but he can't keep adding to the debt ad infinitum. Surely, if revenue remains the same or even falls (i.e. relegation) he can only increase the debt level to a certain point after which it becomes unsustainable.
Well, we've already said there's no sign of us turning into either a decent Chamionship or Premier outfit so how will he get his debt repaid? By selling the club I guess. Which means to me that the longer he keeps failing and the higher he runs up the debts, the harder it will be for him to find a reasonable way out. In the medium to longer term, if he has no reasonable way out, we have the risk of him declaring bankruptcy with all the angst that that brings our club.
Those are my thoughts Suzi, I think we have much more likelihood of a nasty outcome than a good one and that's why I'd like him out as soon as possible.
The good news we have, through the VOTV and @Airman Brown, is that there are alternative and more credible owners out there. The future of our club doesn't depend on RD staying, rather I'd say it depends more on him going and the sooner the better.
Thanks @WrightCharlie Appreciate you taking the time to write out your thoughts, I will certainly copy and paste into a document for him for some bedtime reading as I do agree with a lot of your points. I dont think he'll be standing at the front with a placard, but at least he may understand the reasons for the protests.
The protest at the next home game needs some kind of leadership and structure as the momentum was tending to be a bit sporadic. I liked the tannoy and think this can be used by various speakers, song leaders, to give an impetus to the singing. I would gladly stand in silence but if we are going to make some noise then it would be better when it is led. I think whoever threw the bottle should be ashamed of themselves. Flares are good but can symbolise a riot and therefore may be inappropriate at keeping everyone on board. Well done to all those who handed out leaflets,stickers, and who in their own way led the singing. Let's make sure we are there for the next protest at the next home game.
Comments
I could have a go but there are far better scribes on here than me with a much more appealing style of presentation and flair.
As Grapevine said on another thread the naysayers are not our enemies they are our future allies and need to be converted but we must accept there will always be detractors and that is their choice.
Not all west stand supporters are oblivious but I too am disappointed and saddened by the lack of protest support from this area of the ground.
http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/71142/slp-article-is-jose-riga-a-rebel/p2
Apart from demanding the removal of KM and RD there seems to be no coherent message coming out that explains just what has gone wrong. I have been unhappy at games for a while but I doubt I would eloquently explain why. The results have been poor but until Colchester in the cup they were just relegation form and we did spend three years in the third division recently and haven't spent a lot of money on players so it seems logical that we would be near the bottom of the table. Despite these results and the underinvestment in the squad the club is running up debts. This makes it easy for those on the outside looking in wondering just what Charlton fans want. Is it more of someone else's money spent on their team? If so, this is, essentially, what all other fans want.
Every time I've had a conversation with someone that supports the protests, and after all the time I spend on here I still don't know, exactly, what the protests are for, save what all football fans want, which is more money spent on the club/team and better results as a consequence. I hear lots of comments that are, in isolation, undesirable like RD interfering in the team selection, and RD not caring if we lose as long as his players stats are good, but none of this, even when added together, makes our issues look very different from the rest of the football world.
I'm not an apologist for the club and I'm more than happy for RD and KM to move on, especially if we can find someone that will drop £150m on our club for us, but despite having read most of the media stories, and seen football pundits talk about us, without actually saying much, I am still not convinced that I know what the specific issue is beyond poor recruitment in the manager and some of the players. For example, selling young talented players to balance the books is what all clubs have to do, including Man Utd and Chelsea. It's also what Charlton have done for most of the time I've been watching them. Undesirable as it is, it is a fact of life.
For the reasons above, and in line with what Suzi says I think there will always be some fans that just don't get it, and will be asking what all the fuss is about.
In a normal business, this would result in a) early replacement of the management or ultimately b) insolvency. RD is an obstacle to both, so things that would normally be corrected in the short term are allowed to continue. Consequently you have a "customer" revolt.
Having said that there are still plenty who do come in and are not happy and have got involved, but they do tend to be younger. I will continue to try and educate the rest.
This would be mainly aimed at those without social media channels & who for one reason or another don't buy VOTV.
I feel this could go a long way towards clarifying the issue and would give the facts for the doubters to consider.
BTW, it's obvious that some fans haven't heard about PV's investors, hence the question " Who would buy us ?"
That, in itself is a good enough reason for an informative, unemotional leaflet.
Keep putting the info we already have out, and lets put media pressure on the regime, more will follow themselves.
Remember we are the majority now not the minority!
In the same way the food and drink boycott was a success even if 100% of fans didn't join in. It works if it hurts the caterers and so the club's income.
It a common marketing model that 10% will love a product regardless (people who queue outside Apple all night), 40% will buy the new IPhone soon, another 40% will buy the iPhone when their current contract expires if the reviews are good and 10% will never buy an iPhone regardless.
So the battle isn't to convert the last 10% of Colin's. We already have the first 10% ie the early adopters.
It's the 80% in the middle. I was in the first 40% critical but giving them a chance. Others like Greenie and Valley Gary were in the second 40% supportive of the regime and not convinced by the critics.
Anecdotal evidence suggests that most of the 80% are now in the anti - camp. Not all but from how many stand up to get them out or take leaflets or even voice support on here a large number of the middle 80% are with Roland Out.
You will never convert the 10% such as Colin so no point trying.
Aim for last 40% who are concerned by can't see an alternative or how they can change anything
We won't force them out tomorrow, but keep chipping away and one day they will get the message and go.
I have to say, I can see my dad's point sometimes. It would be great to introduce a one page document, thanks Fanny, explaining what the owners/ceo have done 'wrong' to perhaps make him think, and then make up his mind. He and others can't be criticised or ignored because they don't know of/about something. There is a difference if he chooses to disagree with it?
He is CAFC through and through, and I dont think he needs to go on a forum, read VOTV, watch BBC clips online, join a facebook fan group to justify that. He has had a season ticket for years, he pays into Valley Gold and he buys a programme every match. Why would he think anything with the 'regime' is wrong? (except for the football results which cannot be guaranteed no matter how much money is spent in reality!?)
I was only saying that no campaign for any product or campaign will reach 100% of the target audience and neither would 100% ever support it.
So the campaign doesn't need to convince everyone.
Your dad is most likely in the 2nd 40%. To reach him and others not on social media who don't yet have enough info CARD need to vary the comms. Fanny's idea of a FAQ for example.
Since then, i feel things have escalated in a number of ways.
- An inadequate and poorly assembled squad has manifested itself. We have won 2 games in 26, and none in our last twelve.
- An inadequate management change was so bad, they had to sack him before they even got a chance to announce him. It was the most ludicrous appointment you could ever imagine as his experience should have had him absolutely nowhere near managing a Championship club, and showed just how bonkers the football decision making aspects of the Club are. Were it not for the fans becoming increasingly irate, and the players stopped putting in a full shift, they still would not have changed even if results had stayed the same.
- The Chief Executive (who was given a lot of leeway at first and support because she is a young woman) has handled pretty much everything she has been involved with incorrectly and helped create a situation where many of those connected to the club are seen as the enemy because that is exactly how they seem to view a big percentage of their paying 'customers'. The article in the Belgium press which was disrespectful to older supporters, was followed up with the recorded quotes at that Dublin seminar which was disrespectful to all supporters. Amazingly, everything seems to always be taken out of context, or everyone else doesn't understand. Those are all little things that could so easily be avoided, but just seem to rile the situation, like the stupidity of making a show in front of the protesters, taking pictures etc.
- There is a complete ignorance to making changes when it is clear the majority of supporters don't like the decisions that are made. That goes from big things like not giving the chance to a British manager when it is clear that every foreign manager hasn't worked out, to little things like wanted the team lists back on the screen, or the removing of the sofa etc. As seen from the recordings of the fans meeting, this is never ever going to be a 'connected club' like it once was. You either like what you are given, or you walk away. And now we are seeing the heavy handed approach to those voicing displeasure, or taking pictures.
- Charlton as a club has little going for it in the grand scheme of things. Its USP was that it is a welcoming club, had strong fan involvement and good connection between those running the club and those supporting it. Everyone pulling together in the same direction. That faded a little under the last management, and has accelerated under this one. If it isn't addressed soon, i can't see it ever coming back. The attendance for a sunny Saturday just gone was 5,000 down on the average the season before RD bought the club. Next season will see another big fall in season ticket numbers, regardless if we stay up or go down. We are going backwards as a club and it is owned by someone that doesn't seem particularly bothered about it in any way whatsoever.
I personally see no positives to this 'relationship' going forward, even if in the short-term they ship in a couple of better players to keep us up last year.
Can't believe people continue to put money into the Belgians pocket by keep going into the place anyway.
If it was Katrien saying that and i was in Crossbars,
i would say so, I was in Charlton Park when my son told me so had a Coffee
from the cafe there, and that was my lot until i got home at 7.20.
The guy who put that point of view was about 40,
and thou i was shocked to hear it ,the spell it out in black and white is a 2 way street, So that's why it was good to hear Airman's reply on this thread.
I am over 60 and have supported the club for over 50 years, I am getting information from social media with sites such as this. Others may not follow social media so they do not have the information. It is, therefore necessary to use all formats to get the message over.
A contribution to the aim of " we want our Charlton back" is to have as many as possible involved.
I accepted when we have been poor and relegated before as " that happens" but cannot accept being treated with contempt by KM and having RD persuing strategies that we all know are not working.
Thanks to all organising and participating in the protests.
I'm guessing from your posts on this thread that your Dad & I are around the same age and will therefore have experienced the same highs & lows, different owners etc., here are my thoughts of our current owner and my reasons for supporting the protests and #RolandOut.
I'm sure your Dad understands as much as I do about RD's vision in wanting to apply his business model to making Charlton a decent Championship outfit and with a bit of a following wind, for us to get into the Premier. In earlier days I "signed up" to that as did many others but the further we got into his way of doing things the more I saw a worrying gap between his vision and reality.
Let's look at the "outside chance of getting into the Premier" first. Frankly, I don't see that we have a snowballs chance of that happening under this owner. The coaches and players we have now and have had under his leadership are, in my opinion, below the quality we had when he took over and we had no chance of getting into the Premier then either, not without upgrading the quality of the squad nd that's not really happening is it?
So as far as the Premier notion goes, we've seen nothing from RD to suggest that this is anywhere in our future?
During mine and your Dad's time with Charlton we have mostly been a 2nd tier club, so having a decent 2nd tier outfit is clearly something we're OK with, let's look at where RD is with that.
In the footballing sense the best that could be argued for RD is that we're no worse off than were were and have been under previous owners. Even if this were true, so what? I don't think the quality of football currently being served up remotely resembles decent Championship football. In fact, ever since RD has been in charge, our Championship status has consistently been under threat.
So here we have an owner who's not delivered his vision yet, in terms of either the Championship or the Premier, how and when will he do so?
The only way the vision will be achieved is through results on the pitch, this will lead to gains in revenue and if that revenue is wisely managed, the vision will be achieved and perhaps sustainable.
Results on the pitch come about through good quality coaching, good academy talent coming through and better quality players coming into the squad.
Personally I don't believe our coaching staff are good enough. I think Riga's the best of the bunch we've had under RD but after he left us the last time he didn't exactly set the world on fire. Wim is another clear case of under-recruitment, his credentials and experience are not decent Championship quality. Jason Euell is so new to the coaching scene that I'd have to say he doesn't yet have enough coaching experience to be classed as a serious coaching asset. How many decent Championship clubs would do a straight coaching swap, our for theirs?
We've had good academy talent coming through at Charlton for years now so I don't give RD any credit for the current crop. In fact, I think he's in danger of ruining some or all of them. Your Dad will know that great academy clubs like Crewe, Arsenal and Southampton nurture their youngsters. They protect them physically and mentally in the way they coach and use them, the accepted wisdom being that if you don't do that, you ruin them. It's my belief that we're ruining our youngsters by giving them too large a role in the first team squad, they are getting too much game time added with the added pressure and stress that comes with facing the threat of relegation. Not only will this hurt the current crop it will surely make parents of potential future recruits think twice before giving their sons to Charlton.
Do we have a squad which is being upgraded in quality? Given our position in the league, I'd say not. Have I seen anything which leads me to believe RD has serious intent to change this any time soon? No.
So on all 3 counts, coaching, academy and player quality he fails, his reality isn't going to help him achieve his vision. How can he achieve his vision then? For me the answer is he can't, not unless he changes his model. Has there been anything in his way of running things to lead me to believe he will change his model? Not at all, in fact he sounds like someone who is very steadfast, someone who doesn't change his public philosophy.
There we have it Suzi. A vision I buy into but absolutely nothing to make me believe the vision will be realized in any shape or form.
Now I'd like to add into the mix another important fact, which the level of debt RD is layering on the club. I'm no financial wiz but he can't keep adding to the debt ad infinitum. Surely, if revenue remains the same or even falls (i.e. relegation) he can only increase the debt level to a certain point after which it becomes unsustainable.
Well, we've already said there's no sign of us turning into either a decent Chamionship or Premier outfit so how will he get his debt repaid? By selling the club I guess. Which means to me that the longer he keeps failing and the higher he runs up the debts, the harder it will be for him to find a reasonable way out. In the medium to longer term, if he has no reasonable way out, we have the risk of him declaring bankruptcy with all the angst that that brings our club.
Those are my thoughts Suzi, I think we have much more likelihood of a nasty outcome than a good one and that's why I'd like him out as soon as possible.
The good news we have, through the VOTV and @Airman Brown, is that there are alternative and more credible owners out there. The future of our club doesn't depend on RD staying, rather I'd say it depends more on him going and the sooner the better.