Bloody Europe, interfering with inferior products... Shops should be able to sell safety products that dont work if they wish !
The point for a lot of people is that we already have our own legal system to deal with these issues, we don't need to give up our sovereignty to have the same protection.
The Work Time Directive is European law. Opt out of Europe and paid annual leave, rest breaks and other general time off work could be a thing of the past. Sod the fecking oven gloves!
The oven gloves thread was to highlight pettiness in a world where much more serious problems need addressing - was looking for a bit of light-hearted dialogue/banter.
It will fizzle out soon enough and no offence was intended.
Off the The Valley now, via daughter's at Forest Gate - been summoned to clean some windows, "Because you're good at it, Dad" - lol.
For the record, I support staying in Europe - my company trades with many EU countries and they have become business partners - just want to see us recover our own right to change laws on our own territory - do not want a Federal Europe, which is where we are heading.
Petty bureaucracy and political correctness have increased exponentially with our longevity of membership in the EU.
For those employed by the EU to drive these petty bureaucracies and make us even more anal - get a proper job like the rest of us.
L8rs.
Quite a lot of use of terms like "petty bureacracy", "jobsworths", "political correctness", "federal", "dictated", etc in your posts.
You are of course ignoring the fact that the UK plays a leading role in developing those "petty" rules rather than waiting around for some faceless Belgian sitting in Brussels to impose them on us against our will. I deal with the affects of EU wide directives every day of my working life and there is no doubt that the quality and effectiveness of Europe wide legislation is leap years ahead of the (far more proscriptive btw) national legislation that we had 25 years ago.
Who told you you had to replace your boiler out of interest?
Current legislation is leap years ahead of law that is 25 years old? Wow.
Well they are obviously not good enough
They are, those gloves could have been returned under uk law.
This is the second time you've mentioned this. Just to clarify, the Consumer Rights Act to which you are referring was the UK implementation of the EU Consumer Rights Directive i.e a fundamental review of two separate pieces of UK legislation around faulty goods and services (and plenty more also) that dated back to the late 1970's, early 80's.
I think all of us can agree that laws that predate the age of home computing, as one small example, might not be quite as fit for purpose as they could be.
There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that, as consumers, we are far better served by being in the EU.
Perhaps they would be up to date without the EU? Im not saying these laws and directives are a bad thing, I just dont think we should give away our sovereignty to have them.
Hilarious. If you are a Pole or a Romanian coming to Britain, you are an economic migrant. Or a sponger.
But if you are a Brit in France, oh no, you are completely different. An "expat", I suppose.
Surely this is aimed at the minority, most people I know who are pro out are not against all immigration, they just want us to have some control over our boarders.
There is no way any system put in place will be harder to meet than China / South Korea / America, yet these countries are all full of foreigners.
Hilarious. If you are a Pole or a Romanian coming to Britain, you are an economic migrant. Or a sponger.
But if you are a Brit in France, oh no, you are completely different. An "expat", I suppose.
I don't suggest they will immediately kick you out. But whether and on what terms you are allowed to stay, will be entirely up to them, unlike now.
And the juicy irony is that the very French who are themselves anti the EU in the way you guys are, (le Pen's mob) are the ones most likely to want you out if they get into power.
The only reason I can sound smug about it, is that my wife is Czech. I can stay on that basis, and can become a citizen if I wish (I might well do that, now the Czechs allow dual). Otherwise I'd be in the same boat as you. And we really don't want to be at the mercy of either French or Czech bureaucrats, trust me on that.
Hilarious. As soon as someone disproves your knee jerk, made up scenario you label them as members of the National Front.
You're a funny man. One that really doesn't like people disagreeing with him.
Hilarious. If you are a Pole or a Romanian coming to Britain, you are an economic migrant. Or a sponger.
But if you are a Brit in France, oh no, you are completely different. An "expat", I suppose.
Surely this is aimed at the minority, most people I know who are pro out are not against all immigration, they just want us to have some control over our boarders.
There is no way any system put in place will be harder to meet than China / South Korea / America, yet these countries are all full of foreigners.
You're obviously a distant relative of Nick Griffin. It's the only explanation.
Bloody Europe, interfering with inferior products... Shops should be able to sell safety products that dont work if they wish !
The point for a lot of people is that we already have our own legal system to deal with these issues, we don't need to give up our sovereignty to have the same protection.
The Work Time Directive is European law. Opt out of Europe and paid annual leave, rest breaks and other general time off work could be a thing of the past. Sod the fecking oven gloves!
The oven gloves thread was to highlight pettiness in a world where much more serious problems need addressing - was looking for a bit of light-hearted dialogue/banter.
It will fizzle out soon enough and no offence was intended.
Off the The Valley now, via daughter's at Forest Gate - been summoned to clean some windows, "Because you're good at it, Dad" - lol.
For the record, I support staying in Europe - my company trades with many EU countries and they have become business partners - just want to see us recover our own right to change laws on our own territory - do not want a Federal Europe, which is where we are heading.
Petty bureaucracy and political correctness have increased exponentially with our longevity of membership in the EU.
For those employed by the EU to drive these petty bureaucracies and make us even more anal - get a proper job like the rest of us.
L8rs.
Quite a lot of use of terms like "petty bureacracy", "jobsworths", "political correctness", "federal", "dictated", etc in your posts.
You are of course ignoring the fact that the UK plays a leading role in developing those "petty" rules rather than waiting around for some faceless Belgian sitting in Brussels to impose them on us against our will. I deal with the affects of EU wide directives every day of my working life and there is no doubt that the quality and effectiveness of Europe wide legislation is leap years ahead of the (far more proscriptive btw) national legislation that we had 25 years ago.
Who told you you had to replace your boiler out of interest?
Current legislation is leap years ahead of law that is 25 years old? Wow.
Well they are obviously not good enough
They are, those gloves could have been returned under uk law.
This is the second time you've mentioned this. Just to clarify, the Consumer Rights Act to which you are referring was the UK implementation of the EU Consumer Rights Directive i.e a fundamental review of two separate pieces of UK legislation around faulty goods and services (and plenty more also) that dated back to the late 1970's, early 80's.
I think all of us can agree that laws that predate the age of home computing, as one small example, might not be quite as fit for purpose as they could be.
There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that, as consumers, we are far better served by being in the EU.
Abstract fact of the day being referenced further on in the thread. Very refreshing. That ought to show Henners and IA they can't mock me
Hilarious. If you are a Pole or a Romanian coming to Britain, you are an economic migrant. Or a sponger.
But if you are a Brit in France, oh no, you are completely different. An "expat", I suppose.
I don't suggest they will immediately kick you out. But whether and on what terms you are allowed to stay, will be entirely up to them, unlike now.
And the juicy irony is that the very French who are themselves anti the EU in the way you guys are, (le Pen's mob) are the ones most likely to want you out if they get into power.
The only reason I can sound smug about it, is that my wife is Czech. I can stay on that basis, and can become a citizen if I wish (I might well do that, now the Czechs allow dual). Otherwise I'd be in the same boat as you. And we really don't want to be at the mercy of either French or Czech bureaucrats, trust me on that.
Who said that?
Just about anyone who supports UKIP, in my experience. Delighted if you tell me you are an exception.
I do think that folk moving between the likes of the UK, France, Italy, Holland etc can be accommodated a lot better than people who come from the likes of Romania and Bulgaria, simply because they will work for a lot less money and quadruple up in rented one bed flats when the other people in that country are paying mortgages and true rent amounts etc and so cannot compete for the same jobs. I've seen blokes who work in the building trades affected by this lose everything, houses, families and so on because of this very reason.
I do get that this kind of thing is a problem, especially when you come face to face with it personally. But I think there is another side to it, for example the legions who are keeping the NHS ticking over (and not just here - my daughter in law works in Eastern Germany as a doctor, where they lost many of their young people after the Wall came down). There are problems with in, and problems with out, and I'm batting for in because not enough people do, especially on footie forums.
Hilarious. If you are a Pole or a Romanian coming to Britain, you are an economic migrant. Or a sponger.
But if you are a Brit in France, oh no, you are completely different. An "expat", I suppose.
I don't suggest they will immediately kick you out. But whether and on what terms you are allowed to stay, will be entirely up to them, unlike now.
And the juicy irony is that the very French who are themselves anti the EU in the way you guys are, (le Pen's mob) are the ones most likely to want you out if they get into power.
The only reason I can sound smug about it, is that my wife is Czech. I can stay on that basis, and can become a citizen if I wish (I might well do that, now the Czechs allow dual). Otherwise I'd be in the same boat as you. And we really don't want to be at the mercy of either French or Czech bureaucrats, trust me on that.
Hilarious. As soon as someone disproves your knee jerk, made up scenario you label them as members of the National Front.
You're a funny man. One that really doesn't like people disagreeing with him.
What did you disprove, and what scenario did I make up?
Have you not heard about the popular Spanish perception of the Brits living on the Costas, for example?
Hilarious. If you are a Pole or a Romanian coming to Britain, you are an economic migrant. Or a sponger.
But if you are a Brit in France, oh no, you are completely different. An "expat", I suppose.
I don't suggest they will immediately kick you out. But whether and on what terms you are allowed to stay, will be entirely up to them, unlike now.
And the juicy irony is that the very French who are themselves anti the EU in the way you guys are, (le Pen's mob) are the ones most likely to want you out if they get into power.
The only reason I can sound smug about it, is that my wife is Czech. I can stay on that basis, and can become a citizen if I wish (I might well do that, now the Czechs allow dual). Otherwise I'd be in the same boat as you. And we really don't want to be at the mercy of either French or Czech bureaucrats, trust me on that.
Hilarious. As soon as someone disproves your knee jerk, made up scenario you label them as members of the National Front.
You're a funny man. One that really doesn't like people disagreeing with him.
What did you disprove, and what scenario did I make up?
Have you not heard about the popular Spanish perception of the Brits living on the Costas, for example?
Torrevieja, lovely place but I thought I was in Basildon on a sunny day when I went into the local supermarket - strangely enough, it wasn't Sainsbury's!
Hilarious. If you are a Pole or a Romanian coming to Britain, you are an economic migrant. Or a sponger.
But if you are a Brit in France, oh no, you are completely different. An "expat", I suppose.
I don't suggest they will immediately kick you out. But whether and on what terms you are allowed to stay, will be entirely up to them, unlike now.
And the juicy irony is that the very French who are themselves anti the EU in the way you guys are, (le Pen's mob) are the ones most likely to want you out if they get into power.
The only reason I can sound smug about it, is that my wife is Czech. I can stay on that basis, and can become a citizen if I wish (I might well do that, now the Czechs allow dual). Otherwise I'd be in the same boat as you. And we really don't want to be at the mercy of either French or Czech bureaucrats, trust me on that.
Hilarious. As soon as someone disproves your knee jerk, made up scenario you label them as members of the National Front.
You're a funny man. One that really doesn't like people disagreeing with him.
What did you disprove, and what scenario did I make up?
Have you not heard about the popular Spanish perception of the Brits living on the Costas, for example?
Where did I say that I'd disproved anything? The made up scenario is the one whereby you suggest that European nations will kick British people out of their country if Britain were to vote to leave the EU. Are Norwegians banned from living in EU member states?
I have heard about that perception, yes. However, it is my belief that the vast majority of the people you mention pay their own way and up sticks and leave blighty with cash on their hips. Do you have any figures to suggest that these people are a burden on the Spanish state?
Norway has free movement of labour (in both directions)
Indeed they do. They're not a member of the EU though and that was the premise of Prague's outburst about countries kicking anyone out that disgarees with the EU's utopian dream/disaster.
Hilarious. If you are a Pole or a Romanian coming to Britain, you are an economic migrant. Or a sponger.
But if you are a Brit in France, oh no, you are completely different. An "expat", I suppose.
I don't suggest they will immediately kick you out. But whether and on what terms you are allowed to stay, will be entirely up to them, unlike now.
And the juicy irony is that the very French who are themselves anti the EU in the way you guys are, (le Pen's mob) are the ones most likely to want you out if they get into power.
The only reason I can sound smug about it, is that my wife is Czech. I can stay on that basis, and can become a citizen if I wish (I might well do that, now the Czechs allow dual). Otherwise I'd be in the same boat as you. And we really don't want to be at the mercy of either French or Czech bureaucrats, trust me on that.
Hilarious. As soon as someone disproves your knee jerk, made up scenario you label them as members of the National Front.
You're a funny man. One that really doesn't like people disagreeing with him.
What did you disprove, and what scenario did I make up?
Have you not heard about the popular Spanish perception of the Brits living on the Costas, for example?
If Spain were a soverign nation, they could kick them out, under EU rules Spain, like us have no control over their borders.
Out of the EU they could kick out the retired Brits whilst still accepting doctors, builders, tech specialists or anyone they feel meet the needs of their country.
Norway has free movement of labour (in both directions)
Indeed they do. They're not a member of the EU though and that was the premise of Prague's outburst about countries kicking anyone out that disgarees with the EU's utopian dream/disaster.
Norway have all the regulations and open borders of the EU and they contribute to its budget. In almost every sense, they're in the EU. There are only really two differences - they have control of their fisheries, and they don't get a vote on any of the regulations/budget decisions that they have to observe/contribute to.
Norway has free movement of labour (in both directions)
Indeed they do. They're not a member of the EU though and that was the premise of Prague's outburst about countries kicking anyone out that disgarees with the EU's utopian dream/disaster.
Norway have all the regulations and open borders of the EU and they contribute to its budget. In almost every sense, they're in the EU. There are only really two differences - they have control of their fisheries, and they don't get a vote on any of the regulations/budget decisions that they have to observe/contribute to.
Norway has free movement of labour (in both directions)
Indeed they do. They're not a member of the EU though and that was the premise of Prague's outburst about countries kicking anyone out that disgarees with the EU's utopian dream/disaster.
Norway have all the regulations and open borders of the EU and they contribute to its budget. In almost every sense, they're in the EU. There are only really two differences - they have control of their fisheries, and they don't get a vote on any of the regulations/budget decisions that they have to observe/contribute to.
Norway are not a member of the EU.
They are, however, a member of the EEA.
Right... and...
Norway have all the regulations and open borders of the EU and they contribute to its budget. In almost every sense, they're in the EU. There are only really two differences - they have control of their fisheries, and they don't get a vote on any of the regulations/budget decisions that they have to observe/contribute to.
Norway has free movement of labour (in both directions)
Indeed they do. They're not a member of the EU though and that was the premise of Prague's outburst about countries kicking anyone out that disgarees with the EU's utopian dream/disaster.
Norway have all the regulations and open borders of the EU and they contribute to its budget. In almost every sense, they're in the EU. There are only really two differences - they have control of their fisheries, and they don't get a vote on any of the regulations/budget decisions that they have to observe/contribute to.
Norway are not a member of the EU.
They are, however, a member of the EEA.
Right... and...
Norway have all the regulations and open borders of the EU and they contribute to its budget. In almost every sense, they're in the EU. There are only really two differences - they have control of their fisheries, and they don't get a vote on any of the regulations/budget decisions that they have to observe/contribute to.
"Norway entered into a trade agreement with the community (EU) following the outcome of the referendum in 1972. That trade agreement remained in force until Norway joined the European Economic Area in 1994.
On 28 November 1994, yet another referendum was held, narrowing the margin but yielding the same result: 52.2% opposed membership and 47.8% in favour, with a turn-out of 88.6%. There are currently no plans to file another application."
My head says that if we use oven gloves as a reason to leave Europe we are truly bonkers. Especially rubbish ones that it seems logical to ban! But seriously, one thing that has always struck me about the in out Europe debate is the inability of either side to show without any reasonable doubt what is the most financially viable side of it. This may be because there are pros and cons. I have always believed there are two reasons why we would be stupid to leave - one is based on logic, and one is a bit sad, but I think true. The logic is that similar to the in out Scotland vote - when you are out, you are out. It may not be possible to get back in again! So if nobody can make a clear case, one way or the other, logic tells you to stay in until the clear case to come out is made. The sad reason is that Europe can't allow a member state that leaves to flourish. It will be a threat to the whole concept, so it will do what it can to ensure we regret it - and like it or not, it is very powerful. It isn't a threat it can openly make, but it is something it will surely do and it has the size and power to do it. When the US president tells you it is important to stay in, that is what you need to listen to - not stupid stories about oven gloves and bananas.
Cameron got about as good a deal as he was ever likely to get. I think he did a decent negotiating job, but it was a stupid to link the negotiations to a referendum because the exit brigade would never change their position over what he achieved. This is a stupid pointless vote that will stir up more trouble. The country will not benefit at all from it, whatever the outcome. It is just, it could be a complete disaster if we end up leaving Europe!
For me and many of my contempories the EU should be an economic union with a social conscience. What we have ended up with is loss of our sovereignty and becoming a part of a Federal Europe, a United States of Europe.
That is the problem I have - don't like being dictated to by an unelected body, i.e the European Commission.
The oven gloves issue is yet another example of petty tinkering by jobsworths.
The other problem is that we and the stronger EU nations are funding effectively third world economies, nations with cultures so different to ours that they will unlikely ever be able to contribute financially to the EU pot and, as such, GB is now Treasure Island for all inhabitants of the Union which is not sustainable and certainly not poliically popular.
I don't disagree on your main point, but we shouldn't leave because it isn't what we think it should be, we should leave because it is better for us to do so. We should from within try to make it more like the Europe we want, but we have to convince others to win that argument, and that feels right too.
"Norway entered into a trade agreement with the community (EU) following the outcome of the referendum in 1972. That trade agreement remained in force until Norway joined the European Economic Area in 1994.
On 28 November 1994, yet another referendum was held, narrowing the margin but yielding the same result: 52.2% opposed membership and 47.8% in favour, with a turn-out of 88.6%. There are currently no plans to file another application."
You ignored all five facts presented in my post and focused on the one opinion.
Do you think Norway is the best model for a future UK, outside the EU? A country that contributes to the EU budget, has free movement of people, goods and services, has to implement EU legislation on oven gloves etc, but has no vote at the table. Is that the best model? You've used it as an example several times on this thread, so you must do.
Just opened this thread ...rather a misleading title but frankly if it is an argument about what safeguards, advantages,directives the EU parliament has provided then its pretty obvious we would have made progress in our own way without it as would have done with Labour laws etc
personally ,whilst it probably wouldnt favour me economically the EU has become a big "compromise committee" (not just for the eyes of many in the Uk ) and i can see that the bigger cost has been and will be our social infrastructure....so i am out thanks
"Norway entered into a trade agreement with the community (EU) following the outcome of the referendum in 1972. That trade agreement remained in force until Norway joined the European Economic Area in 1994.
On 28 November 1994, yet another referendum was held, narrowing the margin but yielding the same result: 52.2% opposed membership and 47.8% in favour, with a turn-out of 88.6%. There are currently no plans to file another application."
You ignored all five facts presented in my post and focused on the one opinion.
Do you think Norway is the best model for a future UK, outside the EU? A country that contributes to the EU budget, has free movement of people, goods and services, has to implement EU legislation on oven gloves etc, but has no vote at the table. Is that the best model? You've used it as an example several times on this thread, so you must do.
I didn't ignore them. Apologies if you feel slighted though.
I have used it as an example, yes. That doesn't explicitly mean I see it as the model we should adopt, let alone see it as being the 'best' model. How you came to that conclusion is beyond me.
Britain can negotiate its own terms. Terms that best suit the model it sees as being beneficial to its population.
If anyone thinks that the major manufacturers and other multinationals, that see Britain as their biggest importer of goods, due to Britain being the largest consumerist nation in Europe, wont be running to their PM's to make sure there wont be any plans to stitch up any trade deal that could emanate from a Brexit is very much mistaken.
There is a deal to be made. One that suits Britain.
Norway has free movement of labour (in both directions)
Indeed they do. They're not a member of the EU though and that was the premise of Prague's outburst about countries kicking anyone out that disgarees with the EU's utopian dream/disaster.
Norway have all the regulations and open borders of the EU and they contribute to its budget. In almost every sense, they're in the EU. There are only really two differences - they have control of their fisheries, and they don't get a vote on any of the regulations/budget decisions that they have to observe/contribute to.
They control their fisheries, winning.
Find one of the most prominent uk/eu cases, you might understand why so many are so angry.
As was stated on this thread. I recall the club sold Charlton oven gloves a few years back. I think they should do so again. Maybe Nick Pope oven gloves, with instructions to bend with one knee on the floor to prevent a loose roast potato falling through your legs.
Norway has free movement of labour (in both directions)
Indeed they do. They're not a member of the EU though and that was the premise of Prague's outburst about countries kicking anyone out that disgarees with the EU's utopian dream/disaster.
Oh dear. That of course is not what I wrote, but I suppose if your preferred footie forum is The Lion Rants, such blatant travesties are normal for you.
But if you want to have a sensible discussion ( I.e. one where it is not a given that everyone will agree with you) consider what Cameron is saying today about the future of the Calais camp if we leave. It's part of the same thing. The French are doing our dirty work there now, because we are part of the same club, and have a shared problem. But the Mayor of Calais is at her wits end about it, understandably. Now, as soon as we vote for Brexit, she will be the first to say, let anyone through who says they are going to the UK. Wouldn't you, in her shoes?
So it's not difficult to see that they will start to get difficult with Brits living there, to score political points. Actually like we are now doing today with Kiwis and Aussies, charging them to access the NHS when they are here, even though they don't charge us over there.
It could actually help you to remember your own favourite song when thinking about Europe. Not everyone likes us.
Cameron can't make a big play on the anti Britain actions the EU will take for obvious reasons, but it amazes me how any intelligent person can't work it out for themselves. But that isn't fair I hear some cry - well so what - since when has anything been fair?
Comments
There is no way any system put in place will be harder to meet than China / South Korea / America, yet these countries are all full of foreigners.
You're a funny man. One that really doesn't like people disagreeing with him.
I do get that this kind of thing is a problem, especially when you come face to face with it personally. But I think there is another side to it, for example the legions who are keeping the NHS ticking over (and not just here - my daughter in law works in Eastern Germany as a doctor, where they lost many of their young people after the Wall came down). There are problems with in, and problems with out, and I'm batting for in because not enough people do, especially on footie forums.
Have you not heard about the popular Spanish perception of the Brits living on the Costas, for example?
I have heard about that perception, yes. However, it is my belief that the vast majority of the people you mention pay their own way and up sticks and leave blighty with cash on their hips. Do you have any figures to suggest that these people are a burden on the Spanish state?
Out of the EU they could kick out the retired Brits whilst still accepting doctors, builders, tech specialists or anyone they feel meet the needs of their country.
They are, however, a member of the EEA.
Norway have all the regulations and open borders of the EU and they contribute to its budget. In almost every sense, they're in the EU. There are only really two differences - they have control of their fisheries, and they don't get a vote on any of the regulations/budget decisions that they have to observe/contribute to.
On 28 November 1994, yet another referendum was held, narrowing the margin but yielding the same result: 52.2% opposed membership and 47.8% in favour, with a turn-out of 88.6%. There are currently no plans to file another application."
Do you think Norway is the best model for a future UK, outside the EU? A country that contributes to the EU budget, has free movement of people, goods and services, has to implement EU legislation on oven gloves etc, but has no vote at the table. Is that the best model? You've used it as an example several times on this thread, so you must do.
personally ,whilst it probably wouldnt favour me economically the EU has become a big "compromise committee" (not just for the eyes of many in the Uk ) and i can see that the bigger cost has been and will be our social infrastructure....so i am out thanks
I have used it as an example, yes. That doesn't explicitly mean I see it as the model we should adopt, let alone see it as being the 'best' model. How you came to that conclusion is beyond me.
Britain can negotiate its own terms. Terms that best suit the model it sees as being beneficial to its population.
If anyone thinks that the major manufacturers and other multinationals, that see Britain as their biggest importer of goods, due to Britain being the largest consumerist nation in Europe, wont be running to their PM's to make sure there wont be any plans to stitch up any trade deal that could emanate from a Brexit is very much mistaken.
There is a deal to be made. One that suits Britain.
This thread is now being renamed Should Britain remain part of the EU and let Sainsburys sell it's oven gloves
Find one of the most prominent uk/eu cases, you might understand why so many are so angry.
But if you want to have a sensible discussion ( I.e. one where it is not a given that everyone will agree with you) consider what Cameron is saying today about the future of the Calais camp if we leave. It's part of the same thing. The French are doing our dirty work there now, because we are part of the same club, and have a shared problem. But the Mayor of Calais is at her wits end about it, understandably. Now, as soon as we vote for Brexit, she will be the first to say, let anyone through who says they are going to the UK. Wouldn't you, in her shoes?
So it's not difficult to see that they will start to get difficult with Brits living there, to score political points. Actually like we are now doing today with Kiwis and Aussies, charging them to access the NHS when they are here, even though they don't charge us over there.
It could actually help you to remember your own favourite song when thinking about Europe. Not everyone likes us.