To further my earlier point, someone on social media shared an advert for ordinary guests to appear on a BBC daytime TV programme, specifically UK-based people who wanted Trump to win. The first 50 comments were almost entirely pissed off progressives blasting the BBC for daring to give a platform to racists, misogynists and fascists and in doing so entirely missed the point. These progressives are angry, and their anger is largely a result of being hurt and confused because they do not understand how ordinary men and women could support someone like Trump. And yet instead of listening to those who support Trump in order to understand why they feel that they, they want to deny them the freedom to express their views and opinions. It's like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object - populists are pissed off because they face barriers to express themselves freely, and progressives are pissed off because there are not enough barriers to stop populists from expressing their views. Why can't we just have a conversation?
But the vast majority of the media is totally populist and anti-intellectual. This idea that an intellectual lefty elite are promoting liberalism and censoring out populist views is so obviously untrue. This is how the UKIP and Trump publicity machine works. The liberals fall into the trap of wasting time trying to justify their position allowing the agenda to be set for them, keeping them defensive, the reactionary populist just stick with creating more "self evident" BS and the papers lap it up.
The point I was making was that is progressive politics is to expand beyond keyboard warriors sitting on Twitter 23 hours a day, then they need to realise that the current tactic of calling everyone who is to the right of Trotsky racist/homophobic/fascist etc. is not working. In fact it is worse than not working, it is causing those who they need to convince to dig their heels in even more.
You cannot effect change unless you bring the swing-voters on board. These generally are the working/middle classes who are not self-aware enough to realise that nearly everything they read or see in the media is there to pursue an agenda, and as you said the bulk of this is largely in favour of right-wing or populist politics. There are several reasons for why the bulk of media people consume is largely of this particular agenda but one of the most crucial ones is that the right-wing are much, much better at boiling down talking points into simple, effective messages and slogans, e.g. EU is corrupt and wasteful, immigrants put stress on services and push wages down, benefits claimants are either scrounges or fraudsters, all foreigners are suspicious, do not trust people of colour, homosexuality is perverse, rape victims are liars, Christianity is under attack etc.
They get away with these because behind each of these messages is some small fact or correlation that has been completely twisted to serve a purpose. For example, a Christian baker refuses to bake a pro-gay marriage cake and gets prosecuted. This is twisted into "gays are trying to undermine our state religion and our values!". The message is a total lie but is based on a true story. This is largely thanks to how the human brain is wired - it is much easier to get someone to believe a lie if you link it to something that they know is true, than to convince someone something isn't true due to logic.
So progressives have two paths: either adapt their message to combat these tactics, or attempt to silence the populists. The latter is the easy, and wrong, path to follow. Try to silence people instead of engaging with them and you create a reason for people to distrust and hate you. It implies you know better or that you are superior. Unfortunately I do not see the progressives changing tactics anytime soon. The Labour conference was a vacuum of dissenting opinion, where anyone not pro-Corbyn was heckled, attacked or barracked. The NUS has been taken over by a group of actual fascists who through the use of tactics such as 'no-platforming' and 'safe spaces' are being used in order to create an environment where no views except left-wing, progressive views, can be publicly aired on university grounds.
Well thought out and nicely-written. A good read the above.
People in this country ARE being affected by immigration - my husband has experience of this working in the kitchen of a pub/restaurant.
Before Romanians were allowed free access, my husband was paid well above the minimum wage, as it was difficult to get people to do the job. By paying above the minimum wage they were able to recruit British workers.
When Romanians were allowed free access to the labour market my husband's wages did not increase until it was forced on his employer with this year's increase.
For 4 years he had no wage increase. The Romanians were happy to work for minimum wage and whenever anyone left, one of their friends or family was waiting for a job and it wasn't necessary to advertise. Consequently a British worker had no chance of being employed.
All the other employees doing the same work as my husband speak very little English and when they work together, speak their own language and my husband feels like a foreigner in his own country.
At the age of 62 it is not easy for him to find alternative employment so he is stuck with it for now.
I wouldn't have voted for Trump if I was American, but as a Brit, I think that this might be the best result for us, and interestingly I think Farage will have a hand in this.
Rather than being "back of the line," in a brave new America, we could be first in line for a good trade deal, with TTIP killed off by the Walloons (Trump would have killed it anyway) I think a free trade agreement might be rushed through.
Trump has an issue with countries that are comparatively underdeveloped when it comes to trade, he effectively wants to move a lot of industry back to the USA, some would argue that is actually helping the common man, I don't believe he has an issue with "developed" economies.
I woke up this morning in a shock, and I must admit it is a strange scenario, but we (and this applies to Brexit too) need to suck it up, deal with it, move on, and look for the positives, whilst holding people to account.
On another note, the FTSE rose today on the back of the news that Trump was going to be President. There was an initial slump but then a huge rally. I am guessing that had the FTSE fallen by just one point, people who generally have no knowledge of markets, and no interest in them would have been jumping all over it, much like they did when the GBP fell post Brexit, grabbing hold of any information to prove a point.
People need to start viewing the way the world is changing pragmatically rather than dogmatically, a lot of people have lost out, and their concerns need to be addressed rather than swept under the carpet as bigoted and evil, otherwise I fear the next President might be a lot more unpalatable than Trump...
It seems to mimic much of the discussion in this thread, about the need for meaning dialog between different ends of the political spectrum, and the infectious anger and bile that seems to be symptomatic of the extremities of both the Left and Right.
In our sanctimony, our outrage, our righteousness, we overlook the way in which we appear to the other. The fact is that populism is not only rising on the right.
The hard left, too, is angry, scared and increasingly vitriolic. Many on the left are displaying the very traits they disparage the right for exhibiting. Fear is well and truly on the march.
He ultimately draws a parallel between his own area of expertise, Islamic Extremism, and the anger and fear displayed by both the left and right.
There are plenty of polemicists on the other side of the debate. I'd try a softly-softly approach but I fear it'd be swallowed by all the MIGRANT CHAOS headlines. (Oh yes, I'm sorry your taxi fares are down. Have you considered working for another firm, or reporting yours to a union? I think you should reconsider your stupid racist bile, if that's OK!) This is no longer the time to debate quietly. I'm still debating, you see, but with considerably more force. It tends to get attention, negative or otherwise.
This is genuinely good Leuth, I know you're often a pretty rational chap - and the fact you point out the polemicists on both sides is a testament to that.
I think you're a bit misguided about it getting more attention though. I could walk down Bromley High Street tomorrow morning, stark bollock naked, and I would get a load of attention: would I challenge any perception other than the one that I may be a sane and rational individual? Resorting to hyperbolic diatribe is the same; those you may get a pat on the back from were on your side anyway, your actual intended audience now simply has a re-affirmed image that you're not worth listening too. That's a real injustice for your message and the things you want to get across.
And if you think Trump was brought about by the debating style of the left...pffft.
I agree completely with this; Trump himself was the king of a very vitriolic campaign, and it's been a sad year where negativity and fear has gone on a winning streak.
Rational and happy people aren't susceptible to those messages though, and those who decided that Trump was the right man to represent their concerns clearly feel that they're not being listened too elsewhere. To me, it's a travesty that these fears and angers weren't confronted until they took hold of a majority. Confronting those emotions requires dialog, discussion and real communications though.
I think if the tempo of discussions cooled down, and there was some meaningful moderation available, then both sides would find far more in common than they would imagine.
Went to Zero Degrees with Charlton Aesthetic. Attempted to pour paraffin straight from a glass lamp all over my crostini. Thought it was chilli oil. I'm a mess
Went to Zero Degrees with Charlton Aesthetic. Attempted to pour paraffin straight from a glass lamp all over my crostini. Thought it was chilli oil. I'm a mess
Okay so, 24 hours on. I have done a LOT of reading today. Listened to a lot of podcasts. Gone through a whole spectrum of what kind of Government we're going to have over the next four years. And there are two things I really want to talk about (Warning: Rant Coming).
There are a lot of people who are scared today. They are not middle class white judeo-Christian college educated male leftists like myself. They are African Americans, and Latinos, and Muslims, and Jews, and the LGTBQ+ community, and the disabled, and women who have seen the now president of the country they lives in, and his supporters, rail against them for a year and a half. In that time attacks on Muslims are up 73%. These words have consequences. For as much as I feel like "yes, I knew that this was, and is, part of America," I do not want to normalize Donald Trump or his campaign.
He has made people who are already marginalized feel even more marginalized. He has forced parents to have conversations with their children about the fact that their family could be torn apart because they are the wrong religion or from the wrong country. This is not the same as Brexit. This is something that was EXPLICIT. This was a campaign endorsed by the KKK, who are celebrating today because they feel like he shares their values. None of this is okay.
Second is something I already knew but what has solidified even further: we as a country need to have really tough conversations where we talk and listen to each other. And it could be that these are the hardest conversations we have had since Reconstruction, because we have been skirting conversations about wealth and race and class and gender and globalization and forcing ourselves to think of ourselves as a collective nation since then.
As I said before, there are a lot of people in this country who are mad, and some of that anger is completely understandable because their country has left them behind. And there will be others who we need to approach with love. We all must do our humble best to emulate the best people this country has produced: Dr. King, Abraham Lincoln, John Lewis, Susan B. Anthony, Muhammed Ali, and Bobby Kennedy and try to find love and humanity in the people we disagree with. Not everyone who voted for Donald Trump is a monster. Some of them, like a lot of my friends tonight, are scared. And we must, for all of our sakes, find a way to talk openly and honestly about that fear.
Okay so, 24 hours on. I have done a LOT of reading today. Listened to a lot of podcasts. Gone through a whole spectrum of what kind of Government we're going to have over the next four years. And there are two things I really want to talk about (Warning: Rant Coming).
There are a lot of people who are scared today. They are not middle class white judeo-Christian college educated male leftists like myself. They are African Americans, and Latinos, and Muslims, and Jews, and the LGTBQ+ community, and the disabled, and women who have seen the now president of the country they lives in, and his supporters, rail against them for a year and a half. In that time attacks on Muslims are up 73%. These words have consequences. For as much as I feel like "yes, I knew that this was, and is, part of America," I do not want to normalize Donald Trump or his campaign.
He has made people who are already marginalized feel even more marginalized. He has forced parents to have conversations with their children about the fact that their family could be torn apart because they are the wrong religion or from the wrong country. This is not the same as Brexit. This is something that was EXPLICIT. This was a campaign endorsed by the KKK, who are celebrating today because they feel like he shares their values. None of this is okay.
Second is something I already knew but what has solidified even further: we as a country need to have really tough conversations where we talk and listen to each other. And it could be that these are the hardest conversations we have had since Reconstruction, because we have been skirting conversations about wealth and race and class and gender and forcing ourselves to think of ourselves as a collective nation since then.
As I said before, there are a lot of people in this country who are mad, and some of that anger is completely understandable because their country has left them behind. And there will be others who we need to approach with love. We all must do our humble best to emulate the best people this country has produced: Dr. King, Abraham Lincoln, John Lewis, Susan B. Anthony, Muhammed Ali, and Bobby Kennedy and try to find love and humanity in the people we disagree with. Not everyone who voted for Donald Trump is a monster. Some of them, like a lot of my friends tonight, are scared. And we must, for all of our sakes, find a way to talk openly and honestly about that fear.
He won. He got the vote fair and square.
Would I have voted for him if I was American? No. But it's irrelevant. It's about America and Americans. Intelligence levels of voters are also irrelevant, up to a point. They have brains and can make their own minds up on what they want, based on how they perceive things.
I personally don't think trump got the vote on a basis of terrorism fear factor.
The people spoke and chose what they wanted.
Trump has not forced people to vote for him.
He may have used clever phrasing that sticks in people's mind.
"I'm not a politician I just want simple positive change for America"
^ something along the lines of that, as an example.
Might have had a way to hook things in the mind.
He never backed down in an arguement or admitted mistake (a weakness or not) and he clearly has a reasonable amount of energy and work ethic that republican voters, or just pissed off people, warmed to.
He connected with Americas heart, even if he told a load of lies along the way, even if his supporters knew he was lying. It was simply the all round passion and strong will power.
He is and was a fighter.
His tactics were very undignified a lot of the time. Very undignified.
Being backed by racists groups should be something you fend off out of embarrassment of their association attached to your name.
He probably just thought, aw, that's more votes. More votes closer to the White House. Reasons behind those votes, irrelevant.
He, may very well be raciest....which may have to be fully proven to be honest. I don't actually think he is raciest. I just think he's a careless dickhead.
People that hated trump can't run away from this.
They better just hope that he is not the complete f*cking twat that he made himself look like throughout the campaign, a countless amount of times.
Please Trump, just do the job and do it well. Keep peace
Anyone quoting the "intelligence" of voters as a method to undermine the result needs to suggest their alternative to democracy, or alternatively ways to limit press freedom to stop these people being influenced. For me "low intelligence" or "uneducated" reads as "poor and unemployed"
To smear a result based on people's traits and characteristics is wrong in my opinion, and just reinforces the reasons people voted for him. They are sick of being looked down upon and ignored, and because of that we have a gameshow host as head of the Western world.
People need to think about what the logical conclusion to what they are saying when they quote these things. They certainly aren't promoting democracy. I'm open to any other suggestions for systems if people have them, I just don't think that people would be too happy if they were enacted.
I'd smash the backdoor out of his wife and daughter from his first marriage though, oh no wait, that's not acceptable way to talk about women......
Que our Tony passing your 23 aliases not over to local nick, but to the CIA. Then you trying to explain that smashing the back door doesn't mean an attack on the White House, far from it, more of a brown colour.
Okay so, 24 hours on. I have done a LOT of reading today. Listened to a lot of podcasts. Gone through a whole spectrum of what kind of Government we're going to have over the next four years. And there are two things I really want to talk about (Warning: Rant Coming).
There are a lot of people who are scared today. They are not middle class white judeo-Christian college educated male leftists like myself. They are African Americans, and Latinos, and Muslims, and Jews, and the LGTBQ+ community, and the disabled, and women who have seen the now president of the country they lives in, and his supporters, rail against them for a year and a half. In that time attacks on Muslims are up 73%. These words have consequences. For as much as I feel like "yes, I knew that this was, and is, part of America," I do not want to normalize Donald Trump or his campaign.
He has made people who are already marginalized feel even more marginalized. He has forced parents to have conversations with their children about the fact that their family could be torn apart because they are the wrong religion or from the wrong country. This is not the same as Brexit. This is something that was EXPLICIT. This was a campaign endorsed by the KKK, who are celebrating today because they feel like he shares their values. None of this is okay.
Second is something I already knew but what has solidified even further: we as a country need to have really tough conversations where we talk and listen to each other. And it could be that these are the hardest conversations we have had since Reconstruction, because we have been skirting conversations about wealth and race and class and gender and forcing ourselves to think of ourselves as a collective nation since then.
As I said before, there are a lot of people in this country who are mad, and some of that anger is completely understandable because their country has left them behind. And there will be others who we need to approach with love. We all must do our humble best to emulate the best people this country has produced: Dr. King, Abraham Lincoln, John Lewis, Susan B. Anthony, Muhammed Ali, and Bobby Kennedy and try to find love and humanity in the people we disagree with. Not everyone who voted for Donald Trump is a monster. Some of them, like a lot of my friends tonight, are scared. And we must, for all of our sakes, find a way to talk openly and honestly about that fear.
He won. He got the vote fair and square.
Would I have voted for him if I was American? No. But it's irrelevant. It's about America and Americans. Intelligence levels of voters are also irrelevant, up to a point. They have brains and can make their own minds up on what they want, based on how they perceive things.
I personally don't think trump got the vote on a basis of terrorism fear factor.
The people spoke and chose what they wanted.
Trump has not forced people to vote for him.
He may have used clever phrasing that sticks in people's mind.
"I'm not a politician I just want simple positive change for America"
^ something along the lines of that, as an example.
Might have had a way to hook things in the mind.
He never backed down in an arguement or admitted mistake (a weakness or not) and he clearly has a reasonable amount of energy and work ethic that republican voters, or just pissed off people, warmed to.
He connected with Americas heart, even if he told a load of lies along the way, even if his supporters knew he was lying. It was simply the all round passion and strong will power.
He is and was a fighter.
His tactics were very undignified a lot of the time. Very undignified.
Being backed by racists groups should be something you fend off out of embarrassment of their association attached to your name.
He probably just thought, aw, that's more votes. More votes closer to the White House. Reasons behind those votes, irrelevant.
He, may very well be raciest....which may have to be fully proven to be honest. I don't actually think he is raciest. I just think he's a careless dickhead.
People that hated trump can't run away from this.
They better just hope that he is not the complete f*cking twat that he made himself look like throughout the campaign, a countless amount of times.
Please Trump, just do the job and do it well. Keep peace
I agree with much of what you say, however rather than calling him a dickhead, I'd say he's an incredibly shrewd and clever man. There is no other person on this planet who could have achieved what he has, given that the media were universally against him, the leadership of his own party were against him, celebrities were against him, and on top of all that, he had to fund his own campaign. I said at the start of this thread that his highly controversial and unworkable comments early on in his campaign were a clever way to gain notice and notoriety. He used his knowledge of show business to win the Primaries. They were also a way of appealing to a vast section of the electorate who had become frustrated and dismayed with politicians who refused to even utter the words "Islamist terrorism", or speak freely and openly on a whole range of subjects for fear of offending someone, somewhere. Rightly or wrongly, Trump was not afraid to speak his mind, a conviction politician, a leader. Too many in the media and here on CL wrote him off as a dickhead after those early, highly provocative remarks. The bus remarks further alienated those same people. However, anyone who bothered to watch his performances at any of his rallies over the past six weeks, would have seen a very different Trump. I watched most of them at 2/3 am here in Oz. He engaged his audience like no politician I have ever seen before. He articulated his policies, his contract with the people in great detail, his tax policy, the repeal and replacement of Obamacare, his plans for regeneration of the inner cities, job creation, preventing manufacturing from leaving the country, the deportation of illegal immigrants involved in crime. He spoke eloquently, often interspersed with humour, for often an hour or more, very often adlibbing and playing to the huge crowds. He didn't miss a beat in the final run in to the vote. Hillary on the other hand had no real message, just more of the same. A totally compromised and corrupted candidate. Now we hear that even her maid was asked to print out classified documents. We hear that Chelsea's wedding was paid for by the CF, which also funded her lifestyle for a decade. How would we feel if we discovered that money we contributed to the Charlton Upbeats had instead been taken by Katrien to pay for her next holiday in Dubai? We wouldn't accept it, it's stealing, and the CF has been stealing vast amounts of taxpayers money, via foreign Governments for years. If he follows through with his pledge to prosecute her he will retain my respect, corruption of that scale must not go unpunished.
Okay so, 24 hours on. I have done a LOT of reading today. Listened to a lot of podcasts. Gone through a whole spectrum of what kind of Government we're going to have over the next four years. And there are two things I really want to talk about (Warning: Rant Coming).
There are a lot of people who are scared today. They are not middle class white judeo-Christian college educated male leftists like myself. They are African Americans, and Latinos, and Muslims, and Jews, and the LGTBQ+ community, and the disabled, and women who have seen the now president of the country they lives in, and his supporters, rail against them for a year and a half. In that time attacks on Muslims are up 73%. These words have consequences. For as much as I feel like "yes, I knew that this was, and is, part of America," I do not want to normalize Donald Trump or his campaign.
He has made people who are already marginalized feel even more marginalized. He has forced parents to have conversations with their children about the fact that their family could be torn apart because they are the wrong religion or from the wrong country. This is not the same as Brexit. This is something that was EXPLICIT. This was a campaign endorsed by the KKK, who are celebrating today because they feel like he shares their values. None of this is okay.
Second is something I already knew but what has solidified even further: we as a country need to have really tough conversations where we talk and listen to each other. And it could be that these are the hardest conversations we have had since Reconstruction, because we have been skirting conversations about wealth and race and class and gender and forcing ourselves to think of ourselves as a collective nation since then.
As I said before, there are a lot of people in this country who are mad, and some of that anger is completely understandable because their country has left them behind. And there will be others who we need to approach with love. We all must do our humble best to emulate the best people this country has produced: Dr. King, Abraham Lincoln, John Lewis, Susan B. Anthony, Muhammed Ali, and Bobby Kennedy and try to find love and humanity in the people we disagree with. Not everyone who voted for Donald Trump is a monster. Some of them, like a lot of my friends tonight, are scared. And we must, for all of our sakes, find a way to talk openly and honestly about that fear.
He won. He got the vote fair and square.
Would I have voted for him if I was American? No. But it's irrelevant. It's about America and Americans. Intelligence levels of voters are also irrelevant, up to a point. They have brains and can make their own minds up on what they want, based on how they perceive things.
I personally don't think trump got the vote on a basis of terrorism fear factor.
The people spoke and chose what they wanted.
Trump has not forced people to vote for him.
He may have used clever phrasing that sticks in people's mind.
"I'm not a politician I just want simple positive change for America"
^ something along the lines of that, as an example.
Might have had a way to hook things in the mind.
He never backed down in an arguement or admitted mistake (a weakness or not) and he clearly has a reasonable amount of energy and work ethic that republican voters, or just pissed off people, warmed to.
He connected with Americas heart, even if he told a load of lies along the way, even if his supporters knew he was lying. It was simply the all round passion and strong will power.
He is and was a fighter.
His tactics were very undignified a lot of the time. Very undignified.
Being backed by racists groups should be something you fend off out of embarrassment of their association attached to your name.
He probably just thought, aw, that's more votes. More votes closer to the White House. Reasons behind those votes, irrelevant.
He, may very well be raciest....which may have to be fully proven to be honest. I don't actually think he is raciest. I just think he's a careless dickhead.
People that hated trump can't run away from this.
They better just hope that he is not the complete f*cking twat that he made himself look like throughout the campaign, a countless amount of times.
Please Trump, just do the job and do it well. Keep peace
I agree with much of what you say, however rather than calling him a dickhead, I'd say he's an incredibly shrewd and clever man. There is no other person on this planet who could have achieved what he has, given that the media were universally against him, the leadership of his own party were against him, celebrities were against him, and on top of all that, he had to fund his own campaign. I said at the start of this thread that his highly controversial and unworkable comments early on in his campaign were a clever way to gain notice and notoriety. He used his knowledge of show business to win the Primaries. They were also a way of appealing to a vast section of the electorate who had become frustrated and dismayed with politicians who refused to even utter the words "Islamist terrorism", or speak freely and openly on a whole range of subjects for fear of offending someone, somewhere. Rightly or wrongly, Trump was not afraid to speak his mind, a conviction politician, a leader. Too many in the media and here on CL wrote him off as a dickhead after those early, highly provocative remarks. The bus remarks further alienated those same people. However, anyone who bothered to watch his performances at any of his rallies over the past six weeks, would have seen a very different Trump. I watched most of them at 2/3 am here in Oz. He engaged his audience like no politician I have ever seen before. He articulated his policies, his contract with the people in great detail, his tax policy, the repeal and replacement of Obamacare, his plans for regeneration of the inner cities, job creation, preventing manufacturing from leaving the country, the deportation of illegal immigrants involved in crime. He spoke eloquently, often interspersed with humour, for often an hour or more, very often adlibbing and playing to the huge crowds. He didn't miss a beat in the final run in to the vote. Hillary on the other hand had no real message, just more of the same. A totally compromised and corrupted candidate. Now we hear that even her maid was asked to print out classified documents. We hear that Chelsea's wedding was paid for by the CF, which also funded her lifestyle for a decade. How would we feel if we discovered that money we contributed to the Charlton Upbeats had instead been taken by Katrien to pay for her next holiday in Dubai? We wouldn't accept it, it's stealing, and the CF has been stealing vast amounts of taxpayers money, via foreign Governments for years. If he follows through with his pledge to prosecute her he will retain my respect, corruption of that scale must not go unpunished.
I'd be surprised if Trump prosecutes Clinton. It would set quite a dangerous precedent that could come back and bite him.
People in this country ARE being affected by immigration - my husband has experience of this working in the kitchen of a pub/restaurant.
Before Romanians were allowed free access, my husband was paid well above the minimum wage, as it was difficult to get people to do the job. By paying above the minimum wage they were able to recruit British workers.
When Romanians were allowed free access to the labour market my husband's wages did not increase until it was forced on his employer with this year's increase.
For 4 years he had no wage increase. The Romanians were happy to work for minimum wage and whenever anyone left, one of their friends or family was waiting for a job and it wasn't necessary to advertise. Consequently a British worker had no chance of being employed.
All the other employees doing the same work as my husband speak very little English and when they work together, speak their own language and my husband feels like a foreigner in his own country.
At the age of 62 it is not easy for him to find alternative employment so he is stuck with it for now.
With the greatest respect, it's not a Romanians fault that your old man is doing kP work in his 60s. There's part of a generation that presumed they had jobs for life so didn't bother learning skills or trades. My stepdad is that Same and finds himself scanning bags at a airport or doing delivery work.
He articulated his policies, his contract with the people in great detail, his tax policy, the repeal and replacement of Obamacare, his plans for regeneration of the inner cities, job creation, preventing manufacturing from leaving the country
I'll admit I didn't watch any of his rallies. Could you please give a brief description of two of the policies mentioned above, how he would do them and what a post-Trump future should look like?
People in this country ARE being affected by immigration - my husband has experience of this working in the kitchen of a pub/restaurant.
Before Romanians were allowed free access, my husband was paid well above the minimum wage, as it was difficult to get people to do the job. By paying above the minimum wage they were able to recruit British workers.
When Romanians were allowed free access to the labour market my husband's wages did not increase until it was forced on his employer with this year's increase.
For 4 years he had no wage increase. The Romanians were happy to work for minimum wage and whenever anyone left, one of their friends or family was waiting for a job and it wasn't necessary to advertise. Consequently a British worker had no chance of being employed.
All the other employees doing the same work as my husband speak very little English and when they work together, speak their own language and my husband feels like a foreigner in his own country.
At the age of 62 it is not easy for him to find alternative employment so he is stuck with it for now.
With the greatest respect, it's not a Romanians fault that your old man is doing kP work in his 60s. There's part of a generation that presumed they had jobs for life so didn't bother learning skills or trades. My stepdad is that Same and finds himself scanning bags at a airport or doing delivery work.
At least he's getting off his arse and trying to make a crust, rather than going on welfare or studying for useless degree's that he'll never get to use.
@queensland_addick sorry if this has already been covered but where has trump gone into detail about his plans? (I have skipped about 8 pages from yesterday)
Repeal obamacare has been a republican policy for years but I haven't seen any hard policy plans being discussed by him.
There were general ideas but actually getting them in place will require more.
It all goes back to things we have discussed a month or so ago, and probably before, that there are vast swathes of people who feel abandoned by the establishment. Their jobs have gone, their way of life eroded and they have voted for someone who promised to get it back for them.
This vote was about bring jobs back to communities that have been gutted and putting the country first again. (This could cover either brexit, I still hate that word, or trump)
Yes there have been scapegoats and that is, and should always be, unpalatable. It will cause a rise in hate crime as those who hold more extreme versions of these views feel that they are more justified. But they don't represent everyone who voted with them.
A few people have said that this is a wake up call to those with more liberal views, and we need to stop hitting the snooze button. I am guilty of this, when it came to the EU I was disconnected from those who were struggling with jobs, I didn't want to discriminate against immigrants, but failed to see that I might be seen as discriminating against those in my own country that were struggling as well.
And it is the same in the states, the liberal minded individuals are seen, rightly or wrongly, to have the wealth to be liberal. But they are seen to do it at the expense of those in heartland America. So the heartland rail against these ideas, it pushes people conservative because these views are conservative by their very nature. Help me, help us, rebuild our world first. Trump has given them something to hold onto by promising to bring jobs back and put America first, it will be a big job to live up to that promise.
If we want more liberal views to succeed then we need to help everyone including these people who have been left behind. Especially these people. It's very easy with liberal views to go out and help people outside your own country because they are worse off, but we seem to forget that there are people in our country that need help as well, they are worse off as well, and the more we forget the further they fall behind.
Maybe we need some more conservative liberalism, we need to help those at home as well as abroad. And once they have faith in us we can address issues like equality, racism and sexism better. We can engage with people with these views and try to change them rather than just marginalise them all and tar everyone with the same brush. If we don't then we will end up back in the same place again.
Sorry this has gone on for quite a while so I'll stop. Early morning stream of consciousness.
@queensland_addick sorry if this has already been covered but where has trump gone into detail about his plans? (I have skipped about 8 pages from yesterday)
Repeal obamacare has been a republican policy for years but I haven't seen any hard policy plans being discussed by him.
There were general ideas but actually getting them in place will require more.
It all goes back to things we have discussed a month or so ago, and probably before, that there are vast swathes of people who feel abandoned by the establishment. Their jobs have gone, their way of life eroded and they have voted for someone who promised to get it back for them.
This vote was about bring jobs back to communities that have been gutted and putting the country first again. (This could cover either brexit, I still hate that word, or trump)
Yes there have been scapegoats and that is, and should always be, unpalatable. It will cause a rise in hate crime as those who hold more extreme versions of these views feel that they are more justified. But they don't represent everyone who voted with them.
A few people have said that this is a wake up call to those with more liberal views, and we need to stop hitting the snooze button. I am guilty of this, when it came to the EU I was disconnected from those who were struggling with jobs, I didn't want to discriminate against immigrants, but failed to see that I might be seen as discriminating against those in my own country that were struggling as well.
And it is the same in the states, the liberal minded individuals are seen, rightly or wrongly, to have the wealth to be liberal. But they are seen to do it at the expense of those in heartland America. So the heartland rail against these ideas, it pushes people conservative because these views are conservative by their very nature. Help me, help us, rebuild our world first. Trump has given them something to hold onto by promising to bring jobs back and put America first, it will be a big job to live up to that promise.
If we want more liberal views to succeed then we need to help everyone including these people who have been left behind. Especially these people. It's very easy with liberal views to go out and help people outside your own country because they are worse off, but we seem to forget that there are people in our country that need help as well, they are worse off as well, and the more we forget the further they fall behind.
Maybe we need some more conservative liberalism, we need to help those at home as well as abroad. And once they have faith in us we can address issues like equality, racism and sexism better. We can engage with people with these views and try to change them rather than just marginalise them all and tar everyone with the same brush. If we don't then we will end up back in the same place again.
Sorry this has gone on for quite a while so I'll stop. Early morning stream of consciousness.
Comments
Before Romanians were allowed free access, my husband was paid well above the minimum wage, as it was difficult to get people to do the job. By paying above the minimum wage they were able to recruit British workers.
When Romanians were allowed free access to the labour market my husband's wages did not increase until it was forced on his employer with this year's increase.
For 4 years he had no wage increase. The Romanians were happy to work for minimum wage and whenever anyone left, one of their friends or family was waiting for a job and it wasn't necessary to advertise. Consequently a British worker had no chance of being employed.
All the other employees doing the same work as my husband speak very little English and when they work together, speak their own language and my husband feels like a foreigner in his own country.
At the age of 62 it is not easy for him to find alternative employment so he is stuck with it for now.
Rather than being "back of the line," in a brave new America, we could be first in line for a good trade deal, with TTIP killed off by the Walloons (Trump would have killed it anyway) I think a free trade agreement might be rushed through.
Trump has an issue with countries that are comparatively underdeveloped when it comes to trade, he effectively wants to move a lot of industry back to the USA, some would argue that is actually helping the common man, I don't believe he has an issue with "developed" economies.
I woke up this morning in a shock, and I must admit it is a strange scenario, but we (and this applies to Brexit too) need to suck it up, deal with it, move on, and look for the positives, whilst holding people to account.
On another note, the FTSE rose today on the back of the news that Trump was going to be President. There was an initial slump but then a huge rally. I am guessing that had the FTSE fallen by just one point, people who generally have no knowledge of markets, and no interest in them would have been jumping all over it, much like they did when the GBP fell post Brexit, grabbing hold of any information to prove a point.
People need to start viewing the way the world is changing pragmatically rather than dogmatically, a lot of people have lost out, and their concerns need to be addressed rather than swept under the carpet as bigoted and evil, otherwise I fear the next President might be a lot more unpalatable than Trump...
It seems to mimic much of the discussion in this thread, about the need for meaning dialog between different ends of the political spectrum, and the infectious anger and bile that seems to be symptomatic of the extremities of both the Left and Right. He ultimately draws a parallel between his own area of expertise, Islamic Extremism, and the anger and fear displayed by both the left and right.
I think you're a bit misguided about it getting more attention though. I could walk down Bromley High Street tomorrow morning, stark bollock naked, and I would get a load of attention: would I challenge any perception other than the one that I may be a sane and rational individual? Resorting to hyperbolic diatribe is the same; those you may get a pat on the back from were on your side anyway, your actual intended audience now simply has a re-affirmed image that you're not worth listening too. That's a real injustice for your message and the things you want to get across. I agree completely with this; Trump himself was the king of a very vitriolic campaign, and it's been a sad year where negativity and fear has gone on a winning streak.
Rational and happy people aren't susceptible to those messages though, and those who decided that Trump was the right man to represent their concerns clearly feel that they're not being listened too elsewhere. To me, it's a travesty that these fears and angers weren't confronted until they took hold of a majority. Confronting those emotions requires dialog, discussion and real communications though.
I think if the tempo of discussions cooled down, and there was some meaningful moderation available, then both sides would find far more in common than they would imagine.
Yes he can.
There are a lot of people who are scared today. They are not middle class white judeo-Christian college educated male leftists like myself. They are African Americans, and Latinos, and Muslims, and Jews, and the LGTBQ+ community, and the disabled, and women who have seen the now president of the country they lives in, and his supporters, rail against them for a year and a half. In that time attacks on Muslims are up 73%. These words have consequences. For as much as I feel like "yes, I knew that this was, and is, part of America," I do not want to normalize Donald Trump or his campaign.
He has made people who are already marginalized feel even more marginalized. He has forced parents to have conversations with their children about the fact that their family could be torn apart because they are the wrong religion or from the wrong country. This is not the same as Brexit. This is something that was EXPLICIT. This was a campaign endorsed by the KKK, who are celebrating today because they feel like he shares their values. None of this is okay.
Second is something I already knew but what has solidified even further: we as a country need to have really tough conversations where we talk and listen to each other. And it could be that these are the hardest conversations we have had since Reconstruction, because we have been skirting conversations about wealth and race and class and gender and globalization and forcing ourselves to think of ourselves as a collective nation since then.
As I said before, there are a lot of people in this country who are mad, and some of that anger is completely understandable because their country has left them behind. And there will be others who we need to approach with love. We all must do our humble best to emulate the best people this country has produced: Dr. King, Abraham Lincoln, John Lewis, Susan B. Anthony, Muhammed Ali, and Bobby Kennedy and try to find love and humanity in the people we disagree with. Not everyone who voted for Donald Trump is a monster. Some of them, like a lot of my friends tonight, are scared. And we must, for all of our sakes, find a way to talk openly and honestly about that fear.
Would I have voted for him if I was American? No.
But it's irrelevant.
It's about America and Americans.
Intelligence levels of voters are also irrelevant, up to a point.
They have brains and can make their own minds up on what they want, based on how they perceive things.
I personally don't think trump got the vote on a basis of terrorism fear factor.
The people spoke and chose what they wanted.
Trump has not forced people to vote for him.
He may have used clever phrasing that sticks in people's mind.
"I'm not a politician I just want simple positive change for America"
^ something along the lines of that, as an example.
Might have had a way to hook things in the mind.
He never backed down in an arguement or admitted mistake (a weakness or not) and he clearly has a reasonable amount of energy and work ethic that republican voters, or just pissed off people, warmed to.
He connected with Americas heart, even if he told a load of lies along the way, even if his supporters knew he was lying.
It was simply the all round passion and strong will power.
He is and was a fighter.
His tactics were very undignified a lot of the time. Very undignified.
Being backed by racists groups should be something you fend off out of embarrassment of their association attached to your name.
He probably just thought, aw, that's more votes. More votes closer to the White House. Reasons behind those votes, irrelevant.
He, may very well be raciest....which may have to be fully proven to be honest.
I don't actually think he is raciest. I just think he's a careless dickhead.
People that hated trump can't run away from this.
They better just hope that he is not the complete f*cking twat that he made himself look like throughout the campaign, a countless amount of times.
Please Trump, just do the job and do it well.
Keep peace
To smear a result based on people's traits and characteristics is wrong in my opinion, and just reinforces the reasons people voted for him. They are sick of being looked down upon and ignored, and because of that we have a gameshow host as head of the Western world.
People need to think about what the logical conclusion to what they are saying when they quote these things. They certainly aren't promoting democracy. I'm open to any other suggestions for systems if people have them, I just don't think that people would be too happy if they were enacted.
I said at the start of this thread that his highly controversial and unworkable comments early on in his campaign were a clever way to gain notice and notoriety. He used his knowledge of show business to win the Primaries. They were also a way of appealing to a vast section of the electorate who had become frustrated and dismayed with politicians who refused to even utter the words "Islamist terrorism", or speak freely and openly on a whole range of subjects for fear of offending someone, somewhere. Rightly or wrongly, Trump was not afraid to speak his mind, a conviction politician, a leader.
Too many in the media and here on CL wrote him off as a dickhead after those early, highly provocative remarks. The bus remarks further alienated those same people.
However, anyone who bothered to watch his performances at any of his rallies over the past six weeks, would have seen a very different Trump.
I watched most of them at 2/3 am here in Oz. He engaged his audience like no politician I have ever seen before. He articulated his policies, his contract with the people in great detail, his tax policy, the repeal and replacement of Obamacare, his plans for regeneration of the inner cities, job creation, preventing manufacturing from leaving the country, the deportation of illegal immigrants involved in crime. He spoke eloquently, often interspersed with humour, for often an hour or more, very often adlibbing and playing to the huge crowds. He didn't miss a beat in the final run in to the vote.
Hillary on the other hand had no real message, just more of the same. A totally compromised and corrupted candidate. Now we hear that even her maid was asked to print out classified documents. We hear that Chelsea's wedding was paid for by the CF, which also funded her lifestyle for a decade. How would we feel if we discovered that money we contributed to the Charlton Upbeats had instead been taken by Katrien to pay for her next holiday in Dubai?
We wouldn't accept it, it's stealing, and the CF has been stealing vast amounts of taxpayers money, via foreign Governments for years.
If he follows through with his pledge to prosecute her he will retain my respect, corruption of that scale must not go unpunished.
Repeal obamacare has been a republican policy for years but I haven't seen any hard policy plans being discussed by him.
There were general ideas but actually getting them in place will require more.
It all goes back to things we have discussed a month or so ago, and probably before, that there are vast swathes of people who feel abandoned by the establishment. Their jobs have gone, their way of life eroded and they have voted for someone who promised to get it back for them.
This vote was about bring jobs back to communities that have been gutted and putting the country first again. (This could cover either brexit, I still hate that word, or trump)
Yes there have been scapegoats and that is, and should always be, unpalatable. It will cause a rise in hate crime as those who hold more extreme versions of these views feel that they are more justified. But they don't represent everyone who voted with them.
A few people have said that this is a wake up call to those with more liberal views, and we need to stop hitting the snooze button. I am guilty of this, when it came to the EU I was disconnected from those who were struggling with jobs, I didn't want to discriminate against immigrants, but failed to see that I might be seen as discriminating against those in my own country that were struggling as well.
And it is the same in the states, the liberal minded individuals are seen, rightly or wrongly, to have the wealth to be liberal. But they are seen to do it at the expense of those in heartland America. So the heartland rail against these ideas, it pushes people conservative because these views are conservative by their very nature. Help me, help us, rebuild our world first. Trump has given them something to hold onto by promising to bring jobs back and put America first, it will be a big job to live up to that promise.
If we want more liberal views to succeed then we need to help everyone including these people who have been left behind. Especially these people. It's very easy with liberal views to go out and help people outside your own country because they are worse off, but we seem to forget that there are people in our country that need help as well, they are worse off as well, and the more we forget the further they fall behind.
Maybe we need some more conservative liberalism, we need to help those at home as well as abroad. And once they have faith in us we can address issues like equality, racism and sexism better. We can engage with people with these views and try to change them rather than just marginalise them all and tar everyone with the same brush. If we don't then we will end up back in the same place again.
Sorry this has gone on for quite a while so I'll stop. Early morning stream of consciousness.