I'm quite certain it's the views of people like Leuth, as opposed to say SDAddick, that swung the results in favour of Brexit and Donald Trump.
I was 50/50 ish on Brexit, but it was definitely Leuth type comments that swung it for me. (I was against Trump).
We had 13 years (1997-2010) of being unable to voice legitimate concerns over LEVELS of immigration, without being shouted down and labelled as racist or bigots, that's a very long time. It wasn't just immigration, it was other matters like people on benefits living in 5 or more bedroom houses, whilst some working first time buyers, couldn't even afford a one bed flat. Labour disregarded their core voters and UKIP rose from nothing.
The tactic of allowing unfair policies and not being allowed to have an opinion has spectacularly backfired.
10 years ago this post would have been labelled racist, even 5 years ago.
Today many people now appreciate that it's better to talk, but not everyone.
Agreed and echoes exactly what I said after the Brexit vote.
If progressives want to achieve anything in this world, they need to stop treating everyone who does not share their point of view as being racists, misogynists, or in favour of 'Muslim death camps'. They (we, I suppose in certain circumstances) also need to stop assuming that by virtue of being progressive they are automatically more intelligent or more enlightened or even morally superior to those who are not entirely progressive. Compare with the election of Corbyn as leader and his supporters, exemplified perfectly by the so-called independent "news" source The Canary that was started purely because they felt the media was not reporting fairly on Corbyn; it basically labels anyone who is not a Corbyn supporter a fascist.
We also now face a very tough time for winning over people through reasoned argument because with both Brexit and Trump, major elections have been won by campaigns that were, at times, built on outright lies and even when opponents showed them to be lies, most of the voters shrugged their shoulders chose to believe the lies anyway because they sat better with their own preconceived ideas, even if those preconceived ideas were being proved to be wrong.
The Brexit "lie", are you referring to the £350m to the EU line?
I'd be surprised if that line and that line alone turned peoples minds that much.
Anyone with half a brain, and many of those who voted for brexit possess that much, would know that claims made by people who aren't in government or are in government but not in a position to make spending decisions, shouldn't be taken as gospel anyway.
Just like the millions who voted didn't believe the claims from Cameron & co that the world was going to stop if people voted out.
It seems the past few elections have turned much more into social media driven, aggressive, lying & hyper emotional battlegrounds, rather than sticking to facts and talking plainly and simply about the options. Politics needs to grow up quickly and many of those outrageous attention seeking reactions on social media need to stop.
£350m was stated as a fact by Brexiteers, no two ways about it. Cameron & co did not claim the world would stop. Ever. At all. Perhaps you should try sticking to facts and talking plainly and simply about options?
I'm quite certain it's the views of people like Leuth, as opposed to say SDAddick, that swung the results in favour of Brexit and Donald Trump.
I was 50/50 ish on Brexit, but it was definitely Leuth type comments that swung it for me. (I was against Trump).
We had 13 years (1997-2010) of being unable to voice legitimate concerns over LEVELS of immigration, without being shouted down and labelled as racist or bigots, that's a very long time. It wasn't just immigration, it was other matters like people on benefits living in 5 or more bedroom houses, whilst some working first time buyers, couldn't even afford a one bed flat. Labour disregarded their core voters and UKIP rose from nothing.
The tactic of allowing unfair policies and not being allowed to have an opinion has spectacularly backfired.
10 years ago this post would have been labelled racist, even 5 years ago.
Today many people now appreciate that it's better to talk, but not everyone.
F**k your legitimate concerns. How's that for having an opinion? Note that I'm not shutting down your opinion, nor am I prohibiting you from having an opinion, but I am telling you that your opinion is in my own opinion a load of s**t. You are free to reciprocate, and I'm sure you will. The current of the time is with you, and if I seem a little profane it's because I'm having to fight against it.
Immigration is constantly shown to be a benefit to the economy and to society. If immigrant labour ever undercuts 'native' labour it's due to unscrupulous employment practices. Ever noticed that populist anti-immigrant politicians tend to also be business owners? They are deflecting the blame from their own exploitation. The right-wing media depends on a culture of fear to retain its sales figures, and is complicit in this lie. I don't care how many Slavic accents you've heard at your workplace - they're there because there's a demand for them. And really, who are we to claim our rights are more important because we were born here? Our nation is built upon the acceptance of immigration. Many of us have ancestors who settled here or are immigrants ourselves. What's changed? Country's full? No. That is a lie spread to keep people from questioning where industry and social integrity has gone. A sickening lie. I challenge you to find hard, non-anecdotal evidence that immigration is ruining British workers' chances. Daily Express editorials don't count.
Note that I'm not calling you a bigot or a racist; nor am I shouting you down. This is an open forum where views can be freely exchanged. I am merely pointing out the terrible flaws in your position - flaws which dominate the current discourse in Britain and America.
Your other example of a social ill that demonstrated Labour's contempt for the working person is that hackneyed strawman (usually strawwoman) of the Scouse sponger in Benefits Mansion. Once more, besides much-ballyhooed and almost certainly distorted tabloid anecdotes, this just isn't the reality for the vast majority of people on benefits, who are by and large desperate and starved of opportunity. Raising a family on handouts is not a life many would willingly choose, and yet these people are demonised as having it cushy by those same business owners and media c**ts who hate being taxed and HATE the idea that their taxes are being spent on the needy.
It certainly is better to talk, yes, especially if one is confronted with poisonous bulls**t masquerading as a working person's revolution that only serves to further entrench the power of the demagogues. It's extremely important to call this s**t out before it becomes accepted as common wisdom, which sadly seems to have happened here. Now, of course you're allowed your opinions about how the Marxists of Blair's regime handed the keys to the country to the greedy rapacious Slavs who came here to make YOU unemployable and the fat 9-kid slobs watching Corrie in their country estates. I'm just allowed a right of reply, which I'm exercising. And if you think I should be more reasonable - well, who's censoring now?
If my comments swayed you towards Brexit then it's a shame one internet nerd could have driven you to constitutional upheaval, but I refuse to capitulate to the idea I should just put up with what I regard as a far deeper, nationwide sickness.
I'm quite certain it's the views of people like Leuth, as opposed to say SDAddick, that swung the results in favour of Brexit and Donald Trump.
I was 50/50 ish on Brexit, but it was definitely Leuth type comments that swung it for me. (I was against Trump).
We had 13 years (1997-2010) of being unable to voice legitimate concerns over LEVELS of immigration, without being shouted down and labelled as racist or bigots, that's a very long time. It wasn't just immigration, it was other matters like people on benefits living in 5 or more bedroom houses, whilst some working first time buyers, couldn't even afford a one bed flat. Labour disregarded their core voters and UKIP rose from nothing.
The tactic of allowing unfair policies and not being allowed to have an opinion has spectacularly backfired.
10 years ago this post would have been labelled racist, even 5 years ago.
Today many people now appreciate that it's better to talk, but not everyone.
It certainly is better to talk, yes, especially if one is confronted with poisonous bulls**t masquerading as a working person's revolution that only serves to further entrench the power of the demagogues. It's extremely important to call this s**t out before it becomes accepted as common wisdom, which sadly seems to have happened here. Now, of course you're allowed your opinions about how the Marxists of Blair's regime handed the keys to the country to the greedy rapacious Slavs who came here to make YOU unemployable and the fat 9-kid slobs watching Corrie in their country estates. I'm just allowed a right of reply, which I'm exercising. And if you think I should be more reasonable - well, who's censoring now?
Address my points, not my rhetorical window-dressing
It's not my discussion. To be entirely honest, as an observer I just think it's tiresome to see you frothing at the mouth like a petulant child.
I can't begin to imagine the tedium associated with being in a direct discussion with you. The worst thing is, I kind of like you: you stick up for what you believe in, and your heart is clearly in the right place. We don't agree on much, we're poles apart, but I respect that about you. I genuinely do. I can't respect the way you argue your points though.
I actually think the original poster was correct in saying you're the perfect example of how the discourse goes wrong, people can't be bothered to debate, anger builds and we get Trump.
There are plenty of polemicists on the other side of the debate. I'd try a softly-softly approach but I fear it'd be swallowed by all the MIGRANT CHAOS headlines. (Oh yes, I'm sorry your taxi fares are down. Have you considered working for another firm, or reporting yours to a union? I think you should reconsider your stupid racist bile, if that's OK!) This is no longer the time to debate quietly. I'm still debating, you see, but with considerably more force. It tends to get attention, negative or otherwise.
Isn't it funny how the Tories/UKIP and the Republicans now represent the working class whereas Labour and the Democrats represent the wealthy middle classes?
I'm done for now. Ball's in the other court. Still haven't heard exactly what's wanted from our brave new right-wing society. Rather than suppressing opinion, I want to hear it, all of it, unedited. That's all.
Isn't it funny how the Tories/UKIP and the Republicans now represent the working class whereas Labour and the Democrats represent the wealthy middle classes?
Well that's the trick isn't it? They don't represent the working classes, they still represent the wealthy, they've just got far better at convincing the turkeys to vote for Christmas.
Isn't it funny how the Tories/UKIP and the Republicans now represent the working class whereas Labour and the Democrats represent the wealthy middle classes?
Isn't it funny how the Tories/UKIP and the Republicans now represent the working class whereas Labour and the Democrats represent the wealthy middle classes?
Isn't it funny how the Tories/UKIP and the Republicans now represent the working class whereas Labour and the Democrats represent the wealthy middle classes?
Wouldn't personally say the 'Republicans' represented the working class, as the party itself was the most opposed to Trump.
The party got hijacked by an alt-right movement a bit like the Labour party with its momentum wing of the party.
Isn't it funny how the Tories/UKIP and the Republicans now represent the working class whereas Labour and the Democrats represent the wealthy middle classes?
Isn't it funny how the Tories/UKIP and the Republicans now represent the working class whereas Labour and the Democrats represent the wealthy middle classes?
very perceptive ((:>)
I know, you can tell I have a Masters can't you.
I bet that green jacket looks just right on you ((:>)
And if you think Trump was brought about by the debating style of the left...pffft.
Admit it Leuth, you love Owen Jones, don't you?
I have read a couple of his interesting books .. many of his ideas and conclusions (to my way of thinking) are as much Ukip as they are extreme or even moderate labour .. he writes eloquently and compassionately about the 'working and so called under classes' ... now compare and contrast with Emily Thornbury, Jeremy's latest squeeze
If the Establishment line is endorsed in an election then it's 'democracy.'
If not then it's 'populism' and the great unwashed are branded xenophobic bigots blah, blah, blah for having the sheer effrontery and temerity to question the Establishment line.
We've seen it with 'Brexit' and we'll see it with Trump too.
For the record I'm no particular fan of Trump (the available options were absolutely abysmal) but the Americans have made their choice and that should be respected.
Comments
Interesting stats.
Immigration is constantly shown to be a benefit to the economy and to society. If immigrant labour ever undercuts 'native' labour it's due to unscrupulous employment practices. Ever noticed that populist anti-immigrant politicians tend to also be business owners? They are deflecting the blame from their own exploitation. The right-wing media depends on a culture of fear to retain its sales figures, and is complicit in this lie. I don't care how many Slavic accents you've heard at your workplace - they're there because there's a demand for them. And really, who are we to claim our rights are more important because we were born here? Our nation is built upon the acceptance of immigration. Many of us have ancestors who settled here or are immigrants ourselves. What's changed? Country's full? No. That is a lie spread to keep people from questioning where industry and social integrity has gone. A sickening lie. I challenge you to find hard, non-anecdotal evidence that immigration is ruining British workers' chances. Daily Express editorials don't count.
Note that I'm not calling you a bigot or a racist; nor am I shouting you down. This is an open forum where views can be freely exchanged. I am merely pointing out the terrible flaws in your position - flaws which dominate the current discourse in Britain and America.
Your other example of a social ill that demonstrated Labour's contempt for the working person is that hackneyed strawman (usually strawwoman) of the Scouse sponger in Benefits Mansion. Once more, besides much-ballyhooed and almost certainly distorted tabloid anecdotes, this just isn't the reality for the vast majority of people on benefits, who are by and large desperate and starved of opportunity. Raising a family on handouts is not a life many would willingly choose, and yet these people are demonised as having it cushy by those same business owners and media c**ts who hate being taxed and HATE the idea that their taxes are being spent on the needy.
It certainly is better to talk, yes, especially if one is confronted with poisonous bulls**t masquerading as a working person's revolution that only serves to further entrench the power of the demagogues. It's extremely important to call this s**t out before it becomes accepted as common wisdom, which sadly seems to have happened here. Now, of course you're allowed your opinions about how the Marxists of Blair's regime handed the keys to the country to the greedy rapacious Slavs who came here to make YOU unemployable and the fat 9-kid slobs watching Corrie in their country estates. I'm just allowed a right of reply, which I'm exercising. And if you think I should be more reasonable - well, who's censoring now?
If my comments swayed you towards Brexit then it's a shame one internet nerd could have driven you to constitutional upheaval, but I refuse to capitulate to the idea I should just put up with what I regard as a far deeper, nationwide sickness.
(this is in no way serious and not meant to cause offence.)
I can't begin to imagine the tedium associated with being in a direct discussion with you. The worst thing is, I kind of like you: you stick up for what you believe in, and your heart is clearly in the right place. We don't agree on much, we're poles apart, but I respect that about you. I genuinely do. I can't respect the way you argue your points though.
I actually think the original poster was correct in saying you're the perfect example of how the discourse goes wrong, people can't be bothered to debate, anger builds and we get Trump.
The party got hijacked by an alt-right movement a bit like the Labour party with its momentum wing of the party.
Pah, amateurs!!!!!
If the Establishment line is endorsed in an election then it's 'democracy.'
If not then it's 'populism' and the great unwashed are branded xenophobic bigots blah, blah, blah for having the sheer effrontery and temerity to question the Establishment line.
We've seen it with 'Brexit' and we'll see it with Trump too.
For the record I'm no particular fan of Trump (the available options were absolutely abysmal) but the Americans have made their choice and that should be respected.