I think a number of people voted Brexit on grounds of national sovereignty and being able to take decision making away from Brussels and back to the UK. Job insecurity and the desire for long term stable employment and affordable accommodation will have played a part.
Make Britain British again if you will.
I think a number of people voted Trump on grounds of national pride, being able to take decision making away from a corrupt elite out of touch with voters. Job insecurity and the desire for long term stable employment will have played a part.
Make America great again.
Both are highly popular messages with issues that should be discussed and resolved.
I hope that uniting the presidency with the senate and the congress under republican leadership will allow the US to develop legislature that resolves these issues without creating others.
I hope that disengaging from the EU will allow Britain to focus on its domestic agenda and resolve over time these issues without creating others.
I support Leuth in much of what he says. Without immigration this country and most of its population would be significantly less well off.
The UK is relatively small, and there has been an underinvestment in infrastructure and housing to cope with the net immigration and net investment in the housing market. rate of immigration seems too high to many.
The US is relatively big, also an underinvestment in infrastructure and in creating jobs to replace manufacturing work that can be done cheaper by those globally currently prepared to accept a lower level of consumption/be poorer materially.
Nationalism and racism are not the same thing. It's nice to be a part of a group, but people should be able to move in and out of that group regardless of their religion, the colour of their skin, the colour of their eyes, gender or sexual orientation. It should be based on what you can contribute, people should want to join and those already in that group should prize their ownership and want to contribute as much as the new joiners.
Many people like Leuth can't see the grey between mass immigration 300k+ and no immigration whatsoever.
Anyway Brexit and Trump's election are quite materially different so the comparison between them is tangible at best - Our removal from the EU is a good thing and Trump's election is...well not so clear.
I'm quite certain it's the views of people like Leuth, as opposed to say SDAddick, that swung the results in favour of Brexit and Donald Trump.
I was 50/50 ish on Brexit, but it was definitely Leuth type comments that swung it for me. (I was against Trump).
We had 13 years (1997-2010) of being unable to voice legitimate concerns over LEVELS of immigration, without being shouted down and labelled as racist or bigots, that's a very long time. It wasn't just immigration, it was other matters like people on benefits living in 5 or more bedroom houses, whilst some working first time buyers, couldn't even afford a one bed flat. Labour disregarded their core voters and UKIP rose from nothing.
The tactic of allowing unfair policies and not being allowed to have an opinion has spectacularly backfired.
10 years ago this post would have been labelled racist, even 5 years ago.
Today many people now appreciate that it's better to talk, but not everyone.
F**k your legitimate concerns. How's that for having an opinion? Note that I'm not shutting down your opinion, nor am I prohibiting you from having an opinion, but I am telling you that your opinion is in my own opinion a load of s**t. You are free to reciprocate, and I'm sure you will. The current of the time is with you, and if I seem a little profane it's because I'm having to fight against it.
Immigration is constantly shown to be a benefit to the economy and to society. If immigrant labour ever undercuts 'native' labour it's due to unscrupulous employment practices. Ever noticed that populist anti-immigrant politicians tend to also be business owners? They are deflecting the blame from their own exploitation. The right-wing media depends on a culture of fear to retain its sales figures, and is complicit in this lie. I don't care how many Slavic accents you've heard at your workplace - they're there because there's a demand for them. And really, who are we to claim our rights are more important because we were born here? Our nation is built upon the acceptance of immigration. Many of us have ancestors who settled here or are immigrants ourselves. What's changed? Country's full? No. That is a lie spread to keep people from questioning where industry and social integrity has gone. A sickening lie. I challenge you to find hard, non-anecdotal evidence that immigration is ruining British workers' chances. Daily Express editorials don't count.
Note that I'm not calling you a bigot or a racist; nor am I shouting you down. This is an open forum where views can be freely exchanged. I am merely pointing out the terrible flaws in your position - flaws which dominate the current discourse in Britain and America.
Your other example of a social ill that demonstrated Labour's contempt for the working person is that hackneyed strawman (usually strawwoman) of the Scouse sponger in Benefits Mansion. Once more, besides much-ballyhooed and almost certainly distorted tabloid anecdotes, this just isn't the reality for the vast majority of people on benefits, who are by and large desperate and starved of opportunity. Raising a family on handouts is not a life many would willingly choose, and yet these people are demonised as having it cushy by those same business owners and media c**ts who hate being taxed and HATE the idea that their taxes are being spent on the needy.
It certainly is better to talk, yes, especially if one is confronted with poisonous bulls**t masquerading as a working person's revolution that only serves to further entrench the power of the demagogues. It's extremely important to call this s**t out before it becomes accepted as common wisdom, which sadly seems to have happened here. Now, of course you're allowed your opinions about how the Marxists of Blair's regime handed the keys to the country to the greedy rapacious Slavs who came here to make YOU unemployable and the fat 9-kid slobs watching Corrie in their country estates. I'm just allowed a right of reply, which I'm exercising. And if you think I should be more reasonable - well, who's censoring now?
If my comments swayed you towards Brexit then it's a shame one internet nerd could have driven you to constitutional upheaval, but I refuse to capitulate to the idea I should just put up with what I regard as a far deeper, nationwide sickness.
Maybe reply like that a bit often, rather than short, sharpe ( I know more and better than you) put downs.
Leuth, I understand your rage. When you feel like you're backed into a corner on here. Everyone's rounding on you and laying into you. You'll want to lash out, defend your stance, your dignity and hold true to your values. It will be hard, because you'll be hurt. You come on here often, it's a big part of your life. You enjoy your time on here, you're a regular poster and you enjoy the community.
I felt exactly like this the first time I saw a b had been dropped from my username. And then it began. Posters I liked, trusted and respected. Posters I thought respected me, Ibborg, Irving, Eaststandmike, rounding on me. Attacking me, misappropriating my name with not a care in the world. Ganging up on me. I know what you're going through.
You'll wake up tomorrow morning feeling different, and I'm here to offer any support, you can always PM me. I know what these bastards can be like.
This thread will probably run as long as the Brexit thread and people will still believe what they believe. No amount of argument is going to effect the outcome. Trump has won and now we have got to hope that he's not as mad as many on here think he is
Isn't it funny how the Tories/UKIP and the Republicans now represent the working class whereas Labour and the Democrats represent the wealthy middle classes?
it's been that way for a long, long time now, at least over here re the tories.
Voters in California, Massachusetts and Nevada have voted to legalise the growth and use of marijuana for anyone over the age of 21.
and in other news...
A lot of US porn is filmed in California's San Fernando valley. But voters rejected a proposal, called Proposition 60, which would have forced all actors to wear condoms in films. There are already rules in place which require this to happen but it doesn't always happen. Critics of the proposition were worried that if the measure was approved, the porn industry would move production to a different state.
To further my earlier point, someone on social media shared an advert for ordinary guests to appear on a BBC daytime TV programme, specifically UK-based people who wanted Trump to win. The first 50 comments were almost entirely pissed off progressives blasting the BBC for daring to give a platform to racists, misogynists and fascists and in doing so entirely missed the point. These progressives are angry, and their anger is largely a result of being hurt and confused because they do not understand how ordinary men and women could support someone like Trump. And yet instead of listening to those who support Trump in order to understand why they feel that they, they want to deny them the freedom to express their views and opinions. It's like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object - populists are pissed off because they face barriers to express themselves freely, and progressives are pissed off because there are not enough barriers to stop populists from expressing their views. Why can't we just have a conversation?
.
But the vast majority of the media is totally populist and anti-intellectual. This idea that an intellectual lefty elite are promoting liberalism and censoring out populist views is so obviously untrue. This is how the UKIP and Trump publicity machine works. The liberals fall into the trap of wasting time trying to justify their position allowing the agenda to be set for them, keeping them defensive, the reactionary populist just stick with creating more "self evident" BS and the papers lap it up.
Wow. Just when you think Americans can't get any more stupid...
Well you called the election wrong so who's the stupid one?
Still Americans. I underestimated the stupidity of a nation, as did many.
See the difference between what Leuth has written (this time), compared with this. It's these reactions that boil people's blood.
What?
You calling (not even implying) people stupid and therefore implying that you're more intelligent than them and that your opinion is correct and the only legitimate view, because they have dared to vote in a different way to you.
I assume you've been saying that in the lead up to? That kind of dismissive, patronising attitude is what stops some people saying what they really think, pushes thier views and concerns underground and results in you then being surprised that X million vote in a way you can't contemplate.
Leuth, I understand your rage. When you feel like you're backed into a corner on here. Everyone's rounding on you and laying into you. You'll want to lash out, defend your stance, your dignity and hold true to your values. It will be hard, because you'll be hurt. You come on here often, it's a big part of your life. You enjoy your time on here, you're a regular poster and you enjoy the community.
I felt exactly like this the first time I saw a b had been dropped from my username. And then it began. Posters I liked, trusted and respected. Posters I thought respected me, Ibborg, Irving, Eaststandmike, rounding on me. Attacking me, misappropriating my name with not a care in the world. Ganging up on me. I know what you're going through.
You'll wake up tomorrow morning feeling different, and I'm here to offer any support, you can always PM me. I know what these bastards can be like.
Wow. Just when you think Americans can't get any more stupid...
Well you called the election wrong so who's the stupid one?
Still Americans. I underestimated the stupidity of a nation, as did many.
See the difference between what Leuth has written (this time), compared with this. It's these reactions that boil people's blood.
What?
You calling (not even implying) people stupid and therefore implying that you're more intelligent than them and that your opinion is correct and the only legitimate view, because they have dared to vote in a different way to you.
I assume you've been saying that in the lead up to? That kind of dismissive, patronising attitude is what stops some people saying what they really think, pushes thier views and concerns underground and results in you then being surprised that X million vote in a way you can't contemplate.
All of that is true for many, many opinions, political and otherwise. It's not for this though. Believe me I'm not saying you have to be highly intelligent to know that Trump is an idiot and should not be president. You just have to have a few brain cells.
Can't imagine everyone agreeing with every point but I highly recommend that you give it a read. All the hand-wringing and point scoring and posturing from both sides is so very pointless and petty when the real questions shouldn't be asked about what just happened - but what will happen next? (With actual proper thought not knee-jerk reactions.)
Wow. Just when you think Americans can't get any more stupid...
Well you called the election wrong so who's the stupid one?
Still Americans. I underestimated the stupidity of a nation, as did many.
See the difference between what Leuth has written (this time), compared with this. It's these reactions that boil people's blood.
What?
You calling (not even implying) people stupid and therefore implying that you're more intelligent than them and that your opinion is correct and the only legitimate view, because they have dared to vote in a different way to you.
I assume you've been saying that in the lead up to? That kind of dismissive, patronising attitude is what stops some people saying what they really think, pushes thier views and concerns underground and results in you then being surprised that X million vote in a way you can't contemplate.
All of that is true for many, many opinions, political and otherwise. It's not for this though. Believe me I'm not saying you have to be highly intelligent to know that Trump is an idiot and should not be president. You just have to have a few brain cells.
You only need a few more to know Clinton ain't no better
To further my earlier point, someone on social media shared an advert for ordinary guests to appear on a BBC daytime TV programme, specifically UK-based people who wanted Trump to win. The first 50 comments were almost entirely pissed off progressives blasting the BBC for daring to give a platform to racists, misogynists and fascists and in doing so entirely missed the point. These progressives are angry, and their anger is largely a result of being hurt and confused because they do not understand how ordinary men and women could support someone like Trump. And yet instead of listening to those who support Trump in order to understand why they feel that they, they want to deny them the freedom to express their views and opinions. It's like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object - populists are pissed off because they face barriers to express themselves freely, and progressives are pissed off because there are not enough barriers to stop populists from expressing their views. Why can't we just have a conversation?
But the vast majority of the media is totally populist and anti-intellectual. This idea that an intellectual lefty elite are promoting liberalism and censoring out populist views is so obviously untrue. This is how the UKIP and Trump publicity machine works. The liberals fall into the trap of wasting time trying to justify their position allowing the agenda to be set for them, keeping them defensive, the reactionary populist just stick with creating more "self evident" BS and the papers lap it up.
The point I was making was that is progressive politics is to expand beyond keyboard warriors sitting on Twitter 23 hours a day, then they need to realise that the current tactic of calling everyone who is to the right of Trotsky racist/homophobic/fascist etc. is not working. In fact it is worse than not working, it is causing those who they need to convince to dig their heels in even more.
You cannot effect change unless you bring the swing-voters on board. These generally are the working/middle classes who are not self-aware enough to realise that nearly everything they read or see in the media is there to pursue an agenda, and as you said the bulk of this is largely in favour of right-wing or populist politics. There are several reasons for why the bulk of media people consume is largely of this particular agenda but one of the most crucial ones is that the right-wing are much, much better at boiling down talking points into simple, effective messages and slogans, e.g. EU is corrupt and wasteful, immigrants put stress on services and push wages down, benefits claimants are either scrounges or fraudsters, all foreigners are suspicious, do not trust people of colour, homosexuality is perverse, rape victims are liars, Christianity is under attack etc.
They get away with these because behind each of these messages is some small fact or correlation that has been completely twisted to serve a purpose. For example, a Christian baker refuses to bake a pro-gay marriage cake and gets prosecuted. This is twisted into "gays are trying to undermine our state religion and our values!". The message is a total lie but is based on a true story. This is largely thanks to how the human brain is wired - it is much easier to get someone to believe a lie if you link it to something that they know is true, than to convince someone something isn't true due to logic.
So progressives have two paths: either adapt their message to combat these tactics, or attempt to silence the populists. The latter is the easy, and wrong, path to follow. Try to silence people instead of engaging with them and you create a reason for people to distrust and hate you. It implies you know better or that you are superior. Unfortunately I do not see the progressives changing tactics anytime soon. The Labour conference was a vacuum of dissenting opinion, where anyone not pro-Corbyn was heckled, attacked or barracked. The NUS has been taken over by a group of actual fascists who through the use of tactics such as 'no-platforming' and 'safe spaces' are being used in order to create an environment where no views except left-wing, progressive views, can be publicly aired on university grounds.
Can't imagine everyone agreeing with every point but I highly recommend that you give it a read. All the hand-wringing and point scoring and posturing from both sides is so very pointless and petty when the real questions shouldn't be asked about what just happened - but what will happen next? (With actual proper thought not knee-jerk reactions.)
Brilliant link - many thanks. As per Brexit vote nothing changes the next day and yet everything does.
As for Clinton? She couldn't even win her own demographic of white female - pathetic!
Way too soon to process any of this but Trump the primary contestant was different from Trump the candidate. And Trump the President will be a different animal altogether.
I'm not going to make any comment about the US electorate but clearly Trump is an experienced communicator with a powerful style who is used to communicating via the media and reality TV.
Can't imagine everyone agreeing with every point but I highly recommend that you give it a read. All the hand-wringing and point scoring and posturing from both sides is so very pointless and petty when the real questions shouldn't be asked about what just happened - but what will happen next? (With actual proper thought not knee-jerk reactions.)
Brilliant link - many thanks. As per Brexit vote nothing changes the next day and yet everything does.
As for Clinton? She couldn't even win her own demographic of white female - pathetic!
Way too soon to process any of this but Trump the primary contestant was different from Trump the candidate. And Trump the President will be a different animal altogether.
I'm not going to make any comment about the US electorate but clearly Trump is an experienced communicator with a powerful style who is used to communicating via the media and reality TV.
But that's over now.
We live in interesting times.
Trump on the campaign trail was in charge, he called the shots, he made promises and decisions. Trump now he's actually been elected is no doubt going to find that all those decisions he makes are going to be questioned and challenged and even just flat blocked.
He might have been the ''Republican'' candidate but I use those quotes because he's not really all that Republican in the persona he displayed in election campaigns. Perhaps our American friends can elaborate/correct me here but I suspect that he's going to have as many enemies as friends in the Congress from his own party let alone the Democrats. Obama was a far savvier and more experienced politician and yet even he struggled to get policies past a hostile Congress. Unless Trump is far, far smarter and craftier than he's EVER seemed to be, he's not actually going to be able to achieve much for better or worse.
Comments
Make Britain British again if you will.
I think a number of people voted Trump on grounds of national pride, being able to take decision making away from a corrupt elite out of touch with voters. Job insecurity and the desire for long term stable employment will have played a part.
Make America great again.
Both are highly popular messages with issues that should be discussed and resolved.
I hope that uniting the presidency with the senate and the congress under republican leadership will allow the US to develop legislature that resolves these issues without creating others.
I hope that disengaging from the EU will allow Britain to focus on its domestic agenda and resolve over time these issues without creating others.
I support Leuth in much of what he says. Without immigration this country and most of its population would be significantly less well off.
The UK is relatively small, and there has been an underinvestment in infrastructure and housing to cope with the net immigration and net investment in the housing market. rate of immigration seems too high to many.
The US is relatively big, also an underinvestment in infrastructure and in creating jobs to replace manufacturing work that can be done cheaper by those globally currently prepared to accept a lower level of consumption/be poorer materially.
Nationalism and racism are not the same thing. It's nice to be a part of a group, but people should be able to move in and out of that group regardless of their religion, the colour of their skin, the colour of their eyes, gender or sexual orientation. It should be based on what you can contribute, people should want to join and those already in that group should prize their ownership and want to contribute as much as the new joiners.
Anyway Brexit and Trump's election are quite materially different so the comparison between them is tangible at best - Our removal from the EU is a good thing and Trump's election is...well not so clear.
A quick google shows the chap deleted that tweet earlier on today...
I felt exactly like this the first time I saw a b had been dropped from my username. And then it began. Posters I liked, trusted and respected. Posters I thought respected me, Ibborg, Irving, Eaststandmike, rounding on me. Attacking me, misappropriating my name with not a care in the world. Ganging up on me. I know what you're going through.
You'll wake up tomorrow morning feeling different, and I'm here to offer any support, you can always PM me. I know what these bastards can be like.
Trump has won and now we have got to hope that he's not as mad as many on here think he is
Voters in California, Massachusetts and Nevada have voted to legalise the growth and use of marijuana for anyone over the age of 21.
and in other news...
A lot of US porn is filmed in California's San Fernando valley.
But voters rejected a proposal, called Proposition 60, which would have forced all actors to wear condoms in films.
There are already rules in place which require this to happen but it doesn't always happen.
Critics of the proposition were worried that if the measure was approved, the porn industry would move production to a different state.
I assume you've been saying that in the lead up to? That kind of dismissive, patronising attitude is what stops some people saying what they really think, pushes thier views and concerns underground and results in you then being surprised that X million vote in a way you can't contemplate.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/dont-panic/
Can't imagine everyone agreeing with every point but I highly recommend that you give it a read. All the hand-wringing and point scoring and posturing from both sides is so very pointless and petty when the real questions shouldn't be asked about what just happened - but what will happen next? (With actual proper thought not knee-jerk reactions.)
: at least now the UK no longer holds the award for craziest, most self-harming hit-yourself-in-the-face nation.
You cannot effect change unless you bring the swing-voters on board. These generally are the working/middle classes who are not self-aware enough to realise that nearly everything they read or see in the media is there to pursue an agenda, and as you said the bulk of this is largely in favour of right-wing or populist politics. There are several reasons for why the bulk of media people consume is largely of this particular agenda but one of the most crucial ones is that the right-wing are much, much better at boiling down talking points into simple, effective messages and slogans, e.g. EU is corrupt and wasteful, immigrants put stress on services and push wages down, benefits claimants are either scrounges or fraudsters, all foreigners are suspicious, do not trust people of colour, homosexuality is perverse, rape victims are liars, Christianity is under attack etc.
They get away with these because behind each of these messages is some small fact or correlation that has been completely twisted to serve a purpose. For example, a Christian baker refuses to bake a pro-gay marriage cake and gets prosecuted. This is twisted into "gays are trying to undermine our state religion and our values!". The message is a total lie but is based on a true story. This is largely thanks to how the human brain is wired - it is much easier to get someone to believe a lie if you link it to something that they know is true, than to convince someone something isn't true due to logic.
So progressives have two paths: either adapt their message to combat these tactics, or attempt to silence the populists. The latter is the easy, and wrong, path to follow. Try to silence people instead of engaging with them and you create a reason for people to distrust and hate you. It implies you know better or that you are superior. Unfortunately I do not see the progressives changing tactics anytime soon. The Labour conference was a vacuum of dissenting opinion, where anyone not pro-Corbyn was heckled, attacked or barracked. The NUS has been taken over by a group of actual fascists who through the use of tactics such as 'no-platforming' and 'safe spaces' are being used in order to create an environment where no views except left-wing, progressive views, can be publicly aired on university grounds.
As for Clinton? She couldn't even win her own demographic of white female - pathetic!
Way too soon to process any of this but Trump the primary contestant was different from Trump the candidate. And Trump the President will be a different animal altogether.
I'm not going to make any comment about the US electorate but clearly Trump is an experienced communicator with a powerful style who is used to communicating via the media and reality TV.
But that's over now.
We live in interesting times.
He might have been the ''Republican'' candidate but I use those quotes because he's not really all that Republican in the persona he displayed in election campaigns. Perhaps our American friends can elaborate/correct me here but I suspect that he's going to have as many enemies as friends in the Congress from his own party let alone the Democrats. Obama was a far savvier and more experienced politician and yet even he struggled to get policies past a hostile Congress. Unless Trump is far, far smarter and craftier than he's EVER seemed to be, he's not actually going to be able to achieve much for better or worse.