It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles.
Right. Will you be posting a video which shows the events you describe?
It's really hard for some to stomach that there are communities in Europe that are extremist hotbeds, very weird from the liberals, sooner we accept this problem (tower hamlets, Luton, parts of birmingham) we might actually prevent this shit happening to us!
I agree but I have no idea how we go about changing things in those areas. It won't be everyone or even most that are the problem. It's just that in areas like you mention it's easy for those that wish us harm to live under the radar.
What I do know is that part of the solution must be to give these communities some hope. Young ill educated, disaffected young men and women that feel that they are being dumped on the scrap heap is the perfect breeding ground radicalisation.
This is going to be a long and very painful number of years.
Wouldn't say it's evil but my opinion is that it's an oppressive (especially if you're female or homosexual) religion that doesn't appear to have moved on much since the Middle Ages. Despite it's many faults, Christianity has evolved with time and can take its place in a modern, civilised society, which in my opinion Islam can't.
Fairly sure Christianity has been oppressive to both of those groups within recent history and in some denominations of it continue to be.
All religions have to evolve in order to survive with the modern world and perhaps is some of the reasoning behind these extremist attacks. There are some just unwilling to change get and will go to any length to keep it as such.
Religions do not have to evolve, but some have. Christianity did about 200 years ago through the Age of Reason but that took 1700-1800 years from the birth of Christianity. Islam is 500 years behind that so if the same linear progression is applied they have another 300 years to go!
There are about 2 billion people on this planet who claim to be Muslims - most, the overwhelming majority, do practice a modified version (interpretation of the Koran rather than a change) of Islam which is peace loving and compassionate. A tiny minority are fundamentalists who will be defeated at some point - and the army to defeat them will be the rest of the Muslim community. Depressingly, there is a long way to go to reach that point and the west's challenge in my opinion is to 'arm' the peace-loving Muslims with support and peaceful deeds whilst at the same time going after the likes of IS.
My thoughts are with the families of yesterday's victims.
I think we're sort of arguing the same point here. I was merely pointing out that for religions to remain "popular" and to attract new generations they have to move with the times. The world has become a more integrated and liberal place (on the whole). Coming form a Catholic background I know that the rules my Nan abided by when she was young were completely different to mine. Fundamentalists decline as the years go by and they'll try their hardest to keep what they believe to be the right way of life/religion. And yes I agree Islam is younger than Christianity but you also have to factor in that many of the countries that do practice Islam are also way behind the Western world in their development.
Is it really ? I'm not saying it's all truth, but if reality was in a movie we would say it was bollox.
Terrorist attacks Paris, belt Doesn't explode so goes back to Belgium Is actually stopped at checkpoints but let in He then moves in around the corner from where he lived before Then purchases more weapons under his known alias He is then arrested while police are looking into fake visas
I have no idea how the most wanted man in the world could do all of that while being hunted
Why does every sad event like this, where we should be merely sympathising with victims families and friends, turn into a debate about religion, culture and immigration?
There's no need there is nothing religious or holy about the scum that commit these heinous crimes against humanity just evil people. No religion wants to be tarnished by them and they shouldn't.
There would be a lot less animosity and racism and bigotry out there if people started blaming and punishing individuals responsible for crimes rather than a wider community that had nothing to do with them.
I really respect the sentiment behind this post but I'm afraid it's not possible to divorce the events that have just happened from Islam, culture and in security terms immigration.
These monsters might not be mainstream or represent the views of the vast vast majority of peace loving Muslims but make no mistake their actions and beliefs are being driven by religion. Their version of the Quran is still a version of the Quran. Their actions driven by their view that our culture is evil.
We cannot tackle this problem without acceptance for the reasons including our own mistakes.
Why does every sad event like this, where we should be merely sympathising with victims families and friends, turn into a debate about religion, culture and immigration?
There's no need there is nothing religious or holy about the scum that commit these heinous crimes against humanity just evil people. No religion wants to be tarnished by them and they shouldn't.
There would be a lot less animosity and racism and bigotry out there if people started blaming and punishing individuals responsible for crimes rather than a wider community that had nothing to do with them.
I really respect the sentiment behind this post but I'm afraid it's not possible to divorce the events that have just happened from Islam, culture and in security terms immigration.
These monsters might not be mainstream or represent the views of the vast vast majority of peace loving Muslims but make no mistake their actions and beliefs are being driven by religion. Their version of the Quran is still a version of the Quran. Their actions driven by their view that our culture is evil.
We cannot tackle this problem without acceptance for the reasons including our own mistakes.
Well said. I know the direct aftermath probably isn't an 'appropriate' time to talk politics, but some of the reactions and vitriol on social media to those who even dare try and talk about why this happened is way over the top IMO.
As long as organised religion exists it will be used to further political ends - ISIS can spout any old nonsense and justify it in the name of religion. Religion at its worst takes away responsibility and promotes bigotry - I've never understood why bigoted views are given so much protection if they are expressed in terms of religion. It seems okay to be racist, homophobic and misogynist if your religion allows it. Multi-culuralism fails if cultures have no respect for cultures other than their own - unfortunately some religions don't appear to be that tolerant.
Why does every sad event like this, where we should be merely sympathising with victims families and friends, turn into a debate about religion, culture and immigration?
There's no need there is nothing religious or holy about the scum that commit these heinous crimes against humanity just evil people. No religion wants to be tarnished by them and they shouldn't.
There would be a lot less animosity and racism and bigotry out there if people started blaming and punishing individuals responsible for crimes rather than a wider community that had nothing to do with them.
You've asked why it turns into debate and then gave your opinion, which will probably lead to someone else giving their opinion and then onto debate no doubt. What is wrong with it leading to respectful debate?
Correction, it was/is already a debate, therefore I want starting one. Was merely asking a question and justifying said question, it can't cause what has already started.
Why does every sad event like this, where we should be merely sympathising with victims families and friends, turn into a debate about religion, culture and immigration?
There's no need there is nothing religious or holy about the scum that commit these heinous crimes against humanity just evil people. No religion wants to be tarnished by them and they shouldn't.
There would be a lot less animosity and racism and bigotry out there if people started blaming and punishing individuals responsible for crimes rather than a wider community that had nothing to do with them.
You've asked why it turns into debate and then gave your opinion, which will probably lead to someone else giving their opinion and then onto debate no doubt. What is wrong with it leading to respectful debate?
Correction, it was/is already a debate, therefore I want starting one. Was merely asking a question and justifying said question, it can't cause what has already started.
It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles.
To those who advocate encouraging democracy in the middle east and to be honest that's something I don't disagree with, what do you do about the 'one man, one vote, once' phenomenon? Isn't it just a green light for handing permanent power to the religious nutters?
It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles.
Right. Will you be posting a video which shows the events you describe?
So we all need video evidence for every news story we share now then do we?
I heard a BBC reporter mentioning something along the same lines immediately after his arrest, but she never went any further. She's probably down the road with her P45
Don't pretend to be dumb when you clearly are not.
You posted up the comment It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles., together with a video. You presumably did this to infer that video was an illustration of the behaviour you were describing. Otherwise you might as well have posted up a video of us abusing Karel Fraeye, for all the relevance it would have.
In fact the video you posted does not show what you described. And the person who posted that on Twitter wrote that it shows "cries and signs of panic at the point when the police deploy"> Although you living in France, I am sure you can translate it better than I did.
I can't help but think this and the arrest last week is all part of the I.S plan. What better place to recruit than the cushy EU prisons and jails when a cult 'hero' is on the wing.
I can't help but think this and the arrest last week is all part of the I.S plan. What better place to recruit than the cushy EU prisons and jails when a cult 'hero' is on the wing.
I can't help but think this and the arrest last week is all part of the I.S plan. What better place to recruit than the cushy EU prisons and jails when a cult 'hero' is on the wing.
Seen a few, have you?
The cushiest prisons in Europe are well known to be in Norway. Now, what else do we know about Norway?? Hmmm????
It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles.
Right. Will you be posting a video which shows the events you describe?
So we all need video evidence for every news story we share now then do we?
I heard a BBC reporter mentioning something along the same lines immediately after his arrest, but she never went any further. She's probably down the road with her P45
Don't pretend to be dumb when you clearly are not.
You posted up the comment It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles., together with a video. You presumably did this to infer that video was an illustration of the behaviour you were describing. Otherwise you might as well have posted up a video of us abusing Karel Fraeye, for all the relevance it would have.
In fact the video you posted does not show what you described. And the person who posted that on Twitter wrote that it shows "cries and signs of panic at the point when the police deploy"> Although you living in France, I am sure you can translate it better than I did.
Hold on Pragues here to put everyone right *Trumpet noise*
I ain't pretending to be anything numbnuts.
Okay wrong link, I'll give you that, I meant to share another link which I'll look for later, but leaving that aside, there was hostility shown to the authorities by a large part of the community. Which to me, is fuckin worrying.
It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles.
Right. Will you be posting a video which shows the events you describe?
So we all need video evidence for every news story we share now then do we?
I heard a BBC reporter mentioning something along the same lines immediately after his arrest, but she never went any further. She's probably down the road with her P45
Don't pretend to be dumb when you clearly are not.
You posted up the comment It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles., together with a video. You presumably did this to infer that video was an illustration of the behaviour you were describing. Otherwise you might as well have posted up a video of us abusing Karel Fraeye, for all the relevance it would have.
In fact the video you posted does not show what you described. And the person who posted that on Twitter wrote that it shows "cries and signs of panic at the point when the police deploy"> Although you living in France, I am sure you can translate it better than I did.
Hold on Pragues here to put everyone right *Trumpet noise*
I ain't pretending to be anything numbnuts.
Okay wrong link, I'll give you that, I meant to share another link which I'll look for later, but leaving that aside, there was hostility shown to the authorities by a large part of the community. Which to me, is fuckin worrying.
Yes, you are right in your last point. The Belgians know it too. Their police generally have a lousy relationship with parts of their community,as a guy on R4 was saying this morning. He then went on to say that it was like Britain 10 years ago, and mentioned Forest Gate as an example. So the Belgians have got work to do, but it can be done, and we could help them.
It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles.
Right. Will you be posting a video which shows the events you describe?
So we all need video evidence for every news story we share now then do we?
I heard a BBC reporter mentioning something along the same lines immediately after his arrest, but she never went any further. She's probably down the road with her P45
Don't pretend to be dumb when you clearly are not.
You posted up the comment It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles., together with a video. You presumably did this to infer that video was an illustration of the behaviour you were describing. Otherwise you might as well have posted up a video of us abusing Karel Fraeye, for all the relevance it would have.
In fact the video you posted does not show what you described. And the person who posted that on Twitter wrote that it shows "cries and signs of panic at the point when the police deploy"> Although you living in France, I am sure you can translate it better than I did.
Hold on Pragues here to put everyone right *Trumpet noise*
I ain't pretending to be anything numbnuts.
Okay wrong link, I'll give you that, I meant to share another link which I'll look for later, but leaving that aside, there was hostility shown to the authorities by a large part of the community. Which to me, is fuckin worrying.
Yes, you are right in your last point. The Belgians know it too. Their police generally have a lousy relationship with parts of their community,as a guy on R4 was saying this morning. He then went on to say that it was like Britain 10 years ago, and mentioned Forest Gate as an example. So the Belgians have got work to do, but it can be done, and we could help them.
It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles.
Right. Will you be posting a video which shows the events you describe?
So we all need video evidence for every news story we share now then do we?
I heard a BBC reporter mentioning something along the same lines immediately after his arrest, but she never went any further. She's probably down the road with her P45
Don't pretend to be dumb when you clearly are not.
You posted up the comment It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles., together with a video. You presumably did this to infer that video was an illustration of the behaviour you were describing. Otherwise you might as well have posted up a video of us abusing Karel Fraeye, for all the relevance it would have.
In fact the video you posted does not show what you described. And the person who posted that on Twitter wrote that it shows "cries and signs of panic at the point when the police deploy"> Although you living in France, I am sure you can translate it better than I did.
Hold on Pragues here to put everyone right *Trumpet noise*
I ain't pretending to be anything numbnuts.
Okay wrong link, I'll give you that, I meant to share another link which I'll look for later, but leaving that aside, there was hostility shown to the authorities by a large part of the community. Which to me, is fuckin worrying.
Yes, you are right in your last point. The Belgians know it too. Their police generally have a lousy relationship with parts of their community,as a guy on R4 was saying this morning. He then went on to say that it was like Britain 10 years ago, and mentioned Forest Gate as an example. So the Belgians have got work to do, but it can be done, and we could help them.
To those who advocate encouraging democracy in the middle east and to be honest that's something I don't disagree with, what do you do about the 'one man, one vote, once' phenomenon? Isn't it just a green light for handing permanent power to the religious nutters?
But that's where the example provided by post-WWII Germany is useful (as, indeed, is that of the theory behind the EU accession process). It wasn't perfect, but we should seek to learn from historical example.
In Germany, where there was only a limited history of democracy, following the war, the Western Zones were administered by Allied Powers, whilst seeking to create civil institutions that would be capable of supporting a democratic state.
Likewise, the EU accession process is intended to be about ensuring that each country joining the EU has certain basic standards.
The key thing is to work towards having institutions that are not reliant on cronyism and that will (hopefully) support civil society. None of this will happen overnight and, even where it is attempted, it's not to say that it will work flawlessly - it's not actually the easy option. Remember that liberal democracies have taken centuries to come about, for the most part.
There is nothing to stop the people electing idiots in any democracy, sadly; but you could require a level of constitutional safeguarding of minority and civil rights as part of any support for a country. Having an independent and professional judiciary, police, army and civil service would be an absolute necessity.
I don't want to make it seem like dictating terms (though it is, a bit). It doesn't have to happen in every country all at the one time. The opportunity was there with Iraq, in particular, it had been a relatively modern, wealthy society, with a large middle class (because you do need a middle class in the transition); but there was no post war planning - it's almost as if the US administration didn't want a successful Arab democracy...
The best chance today would be in either Lebanon or Tunisia where, for now, there is at least a form of democracy. If the West wanted to, we could help them transition to what we would find acceptable (but it would take significant resources and inward investment, in addition to helping with civil structures). The problem is that, with every month that passes where the young feel there is no hope, the chances of a happy outcome diminishes...
And, in the wings, are the jihadists and other nutjobs more than happy to exploit popular discontent.
I can't help but think this and the arrest last week is all part of the I.S plan. What better place to recruit than the cushy EU prisons and jails when a cult 'hero' is on the wing.
Seen a few, have you?
I recently had the pleasure of a 10 or so hour stay with some very.... er, friendly Chinese officers.
There is NO way anyone is treated like I was, whilst anywhere in the EU.
The great unmentionable evil at the center of our culture is monotheism. From a barbaric Bronze Age text known as the Old Testament, three antihuman religions have evolved - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. These are sky-god religions. They are, literally patriarchal - God is the Omnipotent Father - hence the loathing of woman for 2000 years in those countries afflicted by the sky-god and his earthly male delegates.
I can't help but think this and the arrest last week is all part of the I.S plan. What better place to recruit than the cushy EU prisons and jails when a cult 'hero' is on the wing.
Seen a few, have you?
I recently had the pleasure of a 10 or so hour stay with some very.... er, friendly Chinese officers.
There is NO way anyone is treated like I was, whilst anywhere in the EU.
The great unmentionable evil at the center of our culture is monotheism. From a barbaric Bronze Age text known as the Old Testament, three antihuman religions have evolved - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. These are sky-god religions. They are, literally patriarchal - God is the Omnipotent Father - hence the loathing of woman for 2000 years in those countries afflicted by the sky-god and his earthly male delegates.
Comments
What I do know is that part of the solution must be to give these communities some hope. Young ill educated, disaffected young men and women that feel that they are being dumped on the scrap heap is the perfect breeding ground radicalisation.
This is going to be a long and very painful number of years.
Is it really ? I'm not saying it's all truth, but if reality was in a movie we would say it was bollox.
Terrorist attacks Paris, belt Doesn't explode so goes back to Belgium
Is actually stopped at checkpoints but let in
He then moves in around the corner from where he lived before
Then purchases more weapons under his known alias
He is then arrested while police are looking into fake visas
I have no idea how the most wanted man in the world could do all of that while being hunted
These monsters might not be mainstream or represent the views of the vast vast majority of peace loving Muslims but make no mistake their actions and beliefs are being driven by religion. Their version of the Quran is still a version of the Quran. Their actions driven by their view that our culture is evil.
We cannot tackle this problem without acceptance for the reasons including our own mistakes.
Religion at its worst takes away responsibility and promotes bigotry - I've never understood why bigoted views are given so much protection if they are expressed in terms of religion. It seems okay to be racist, homophobic and misogynist if your religion allows it.
Multi-culuralism fails if cultures have no respect for cultures other than their own - unfortunately some religions don't appear to be that tolerant.
You posted up the comment It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles., together with a video. You presumably did this to infer that video was an illustration of the behaviour you were describing. Otherwise you might as well have posted up a video of us abusing Karel Fraeye, for all the relevance it would have.
In fact the video you posted does not show what you described. And the person who posted that on Twitter wrote that it shows "cries and signs of panic at the point when the police deploy"> Although you living in France, I am sure you can translate it better than I did.
What better place to recruit than the cushy EU prisons and jails when a cult 'hero' is on the wing.
The cushiest prisons in Europe are well known to be in Norway. Now, what else do we know about Norway?? Hmmm????
I ain't pretending to be anything numbnuts.
Okay wrong link, I'll give you that, I meant to share another link which I'll look for later, but leaving that aside, there was hostility shown to the authorities by a large part of the community. Which to me, is fuckin worrying.
You avin that Prague?
In Germany, where there was only a limited history of democracy, following the war, the Western Zones were administered by Allied Powers, whilst seeking to create civil institutions that would be capable of supporting a democratic state.
Likewise, the EU accession process is intended to be about ensuring that each country joining the EU has certain basic standards.
The key thing is to work towards having institutions that are not reliant on cronyism and that will (hopefully) support civil society. None of this will happen overnight and, even where it is attempted, it's not to say that it will work flawlessly - it's not actually the easy option. Remember that liberal democracies have taken centuries to come about, for the most part.
There is nothing to stop the people electing idiots in any democracy, sadly; but you could require a level of constitutional safeguarding of minority and civil rights as part of any support for a country. Having an independent and professional judiciary, police, army and civil service would be an absolute necessity.
I don't want to make it seem like dictating terms (though it is, a bit). It doesn't have to happen in every country all at the one time. The opportunity was there with Iraq, in particular, it had been a relatively modern, wealthy society, with a large middle class (because you do need a middle class in the transition); but there was no post war planning - it's almost as if the US administration didn't want a successful Arab democracy...
The best chance today would be in either Lebanon or Tunisia where, for now, there is at least a form of democracy. If the West wanted to, we could help them transition to what we would find acceptable (but it would take significant resources and inward investment, in addition to helping with civil structures). The problem is that, with every month that passes where the young feel there is no hope, the chances of a happy outcome diminishes...
And, in the wings, are the jihadists and other nutjobs more than happy to exploit popular discontent.
There is NO way anyone is treated like I was, whilst anywhere in the EU.
The great unmentionable evil at the center of our culture is monotheism. From a barbaric Bronze Age text known as the Old Testament, three antihuman religions have evolved - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. These are sky-god religions. They are, literally patriarchal - God is the Omnipotent Father - hence the loathing of woman for 2000 years in those countries afflicted by the sky-god and his earthly male delegates.
Gore Vidal
that would be mental.