I can't help but think this and the arrest last week is all part of the I.S plan. What better place to recruit than the cushy EU prisons and jails when a cult 'hero' is on the wing.
Personally, it makes more sense to kill innocent people... Create more hate and recruit that way. I can't imagine a bomb making suicide attack mastermind being allowed to bowl around a prison recruiting
Bomb maker arrested and then not... A tin foil hat wearer might say that 'they' have there agent back
Others might just say that the Belgian intelligence services are a bit shitty.
"Americans claim the Belgians are like clueless ‘children’ who are too incompetent to handle today’s terror threat." - It doesn't really inspire much confidence when you realise that individuals located in Belgium seem to be pulling the strings for a terror campaign that has the entirety of Europe in it's sights.
It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles.
Right. Will you be posting a video which shows the events you describe?
So we all need video evidence for every news story we share now then do we?
I heard a BBC reporter mentioning something along the same lines immediately after his arrest, but she never went any further. She's probably down the road with her P45
Don't pretend to be dumb when you clearly are not.
You posted up the comment It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles., together with a video. You presumably did this to infer that video was an illustration of the behaviour you were describing. Otherwise you might as well have posted up a video of us abusing Karel Fraeye, for all the relevance it would have.
In fact the video you posted does not show what you described. And the person who posted that on Twitter wrote that it shows "cries and signs of panic at the point when the police deploy"> Although you living in France, I am sure you can translate it better than I did.
Hold on Pragues here to put everyone right *Trumpet noise*
I ain't pretending to be anything numbnuts.
Okay wrong link, I'll give you that, I meant to share another link which I'll look for later, but leaving that aside, there was hostility shown to the authorities by a large part of the community. Which to me, is fuckin worrying.
Yes, you are right in your last point. The Belgians know it too. Their police generally have a lousy relationship with parts of their community,as a guy on R4 was saying this morning. He then went on to say that it was like Britain 10 years ago, and mentioned Forest Gate as an example. So the Belgians have got work to do, but it can be done, and we could help them.
Do we have to?
You are seriously saying we should not help Belgium or anyone else improve their policing, if they think they can learn from us? There's a few people on here I can imagine writing that, but not you, Sadie
It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles.
Right. Will you be posting a video which shows the events you describe?
So we all need video evidence for every news story we share now then do we?
I heard a BBC reporter mentioning something along the same lines immediately after his arrest, but she never went any further. She's probably down the road with her P45
Don't pretend to be dumb when you clearly are not.
You posted up the comment It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles., together with a video. You presumably did this to infer that video was an illustration of the behaviour you were describing. Otherwise you might as well have posted up a video of us abusing Karel Fraeye, for all the relevance it would have.
In fact the video you posted does not show what you described. And the person who posted that on Twitter wrote that it shows "cries and signs of panic at the point when the police deploy"> Although you living in France, I am sure you can translate it better than I did.
Hold on Pragues here to put everyone right *Trumpet noise*
I ain't pretending to be anything numbnuts.
Okay wrong link, I'll give you that, I meant to share another link which I'll look for later, but leaving that aside, there was hostility shown to the authorities by a large part of the community. Which to me, is fuckin worrying.
Yes, you are right in your last point. The Belgians know it too. Their police generally have a lousy relationship with parts of their community,as a guy on R4 was saying this morning. He then went on to say that it was like Britain 10 years ago, and mentioned Forest Gate as an example. So the Belgians have got work to do, but it can be done, and we could help them.
Do we have to?
You are seriously saying we should not help Belgium or anyone else improve their policing, if they think they can learn from us? There's a few people on here I can imagine writing that, but not you, Sadie
It was a joke I thought you all would no that lol. Let's put it this way...
Sounds like hard work an impossible task we could help with, would take time and patience with a lot of disagreements along the way, as with a teenager being asked to help clean the house "oh grrrr, do I have to mum"
My light hearted way of saying oh no more hard work for us. Lighthearted and dry sense of humour don't wash very well on here sometimes
Bomb maker arrested and then not... A tin foil hat wearer might say that 'they' have there agent back
Others might just say that the Belgian intelligence services are a bit shitty.
"Americans claim the Belgians are like clueless ‘children’ who are too incompetent to handle today’s terror threat." - It doesn't really inspire much confidence when you realise that individuals located in Belgium seem to be pulling the strings for a terror campaign that has the entirety of Europe in it's sights.
I agree, I may have some ridiculous opinions but I like to think I know where to draw the line.
It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles.
Right. Will you be posting a video which shows the events you describe?
So we all need video evidence for every news story we share now then do we?
I heard a BBC reporter mentioning something along the same lines immediately after his arrest, but she never went any further. She's probably down the road with her P45
Don't pretend to be dumb when you clearly are not.
You posted up the comment It's been reported that Salah Abdeslam was being shielded by the 'community' in the area he was living in Molenbeek, after he was arrested, locals gathered shouting their support for "Hero Abdeslam", when the police tried to disperse the crowd they threw missiles., together with a video. You presumably did this to infer that video was an illustration of the behaviour you were describing. Otherwise you might as well have posted up a video of us abusing Karel Fraeye, for all the relevance it would have.
In fact the video you posted does not show what you described. And the person who posted that on Twitter wrote that it shows "cries and signs of panic at the point when the police deploy"> Although you living in France, I am sure you can translate it better than I did.
Hold on Pragues here to put everyone right *Trumpet noise*
I ain't pretending to be anything numbnuts.
Okay wrong link, I'll give you that, I meant to share another link which I'll look for later, but leaving that aside, there was hostility shown to the authorities by a large part of the community. Which to me, is fuckin worrying.
Yes, you are right in your last point. The Belgians know it too. Their police generally have a lousy relationship with parts of their community,as a guy on R4 was saying this morning. He then went on to say that it was like Britain 10 years ago, and mentioned Forest Gate as an example. So the Belgians have got work to do, but it can be done, and we could help them.
Do we have to?
You are seriously saying we should not help Belgium or anyone else improve their policing, if they think they can learn from us? There's a few people on here I can imagine writing that, but not you, Sadie
It was a joke I thought you all would no that lol. Let's put it this way...
Sounds like hard work an impossible task we could help with, would take time and patience with a lot of disagreements along the way, as with a teenager being asked to help clean the house "oh grrrr, do I have to mum"
My light hearted way of saying oh no more hard work for us. Lighthearted and dry sense of humour don't wash very well on here sometimes
Sorry Sadie. Clearly @i_b_b_o_r_g is right and I am a numbnuts.
Greater cooperation is clearly needed. The fact Belgian intelligence has supposedly reached Belgian police via British police is hurrendous.
Not to mention the UK has arguably more experience and expertise with regards to terrorism than most of Europe.
Regardless of the impending referendum, greater cooperation is arguably our best chance at beating this scurge, and should be a priority for all countries involved.
Thinking of it, I think we went as far as liaising with Israeli's after 7/7 - as they had experience dealing with suicide bombers.
So here it is. I firmly believe that the vast majority of the 1.2 Billion Muslims in this world are peaceable and do not subscribe to fundamentalism in any way. The latest estimate is that something between 12-15% of Muslims are inclined towards fundamentalist views meaning that 120 – 180 Million people potentially could support the aims of the Jihadists, that’s not to say they do but they could.
So whilst being a minority they are a large minority and it is all fine and well saying that the majority of peaceful Muslims will influence and stop this progression but history shows that is not the case. When has a silent, peaceful majority ever stopped a radical minority from exercising their warped ideology? Did the majority of the Germans stop Hitler and the Nazis murdering 7 million Jews/Gypsys/Gays and disabled people, did the majority of Russians prevent Stalin from murdering 20 million of his own people or the majority of Chinese stop Chairman Mao killing 80 million of his people? No absolutely not so why do we think that the Muslim majority can stop the Jihadists?
This is a World problem now and it will take a global effort to change things, I am not sure how, but bombing the bejeezus out of them is not the answer that is the best recruiting sergeant they have, because behind all these stupid numbnuts who strap bombs to themselves are some very savvy, smart people who are orchestrating this whole situation and the more conflict they can create the better. Does anyone not believe that this atrocity in Brussels was not in small part timed at least to have some influence on our Brexit vote? What better way to demonstrate the dangers of open borders than this? these people are smart and it would suit their purposes very well to create confusion, discord and chaos within the EU and beyond.
They rely on recruiting young, impressionable people who come from poor backgrounds, who have no jobs or prospects and promise them paradise. These idiots are suggestable and hence fall for the guff that the organisers trot out, there is never a chance they will put their lives on the line they are too busy plotting how they can be rich and influential, this isn't about religion its about money and power anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.
Like I said I don’t have the answers but this will carry on getting worse unless the world community can find a means of making fundamentalism unattractive and outmoded to the potential recruits.
Although feeling absolutely dreadful about all the goings on in Belguim and honest heart felt condolences to all involved, it was one of these tragedies that will scar the world just as Paris did and London 7/7, not to forget 9/11, but I really really can't bring myself to use the Belgian flag on Facebook I've clicked on it a few times, then clicked off, is anyone else having the same mental block?
Although feeling absolutely dreadful about all the goings on in Belguim and honest heart felt condolences to all involved, it was one of these tragedies that will scar the world just as Paris did and London 7/7, not to forget 9/11, but I really really can't bring myself to use the Belgian flag on Facebook I've clicked on it a few times, then clicked off, is anyone else having the same mental block?
I can't bring myself to use Facebook, so you're several steps in advance of me...
I do have a concern where we might wrap ourselves (or our avatars) in a flag to represent our fellow feeling (which is a good and natural thing) for the victims of ISIS/Al Qaida terror if we don't do it for all (Russians, Iraqis, etc.).
But each to their own, and I might just be heartless.
Although feeling absolutely dreadful about all the goings on in Belguim and honest heart felt condolences to all involved, it was one of these tragedies that will scar the world just as Paris did and London 7/7, not to forget 9/11, but I really really can't bring myself to use the Belgian flag on Facebook I've clicked on it a few times, then clicked off, is anyone else having the same mental block?
I can't bring myself to use Facebook, so you're several steps in advance of me...
I do have a concern where we might wrap ourselves (or our avatars) in a flag to represent our fellow feeling (which is a good and natural thing) for the victims of ISIS/Al Qaida terror if we don't do it for all (Russians, Iraqis, etc.).
But each to their own, and I might just be heartless.
This time I think I know where @sadiejane1981 is coming from. How about this one Sadie?
Although feeling absolutely dreadful about all the goings on in Belguim and honest heart felt condolences to all involved, it was one of these tragedies that will scar the world just as Paris did and London 7/7, not to forget 9/11, but I really really can't bring myself to use the Belgian flag on Facebook I've clicked on it a few times, then clicked off, is anyone else having the same mental block?
I can't bring myself to use Facebook, so you're several steps in advance of me...
I do have a concern where we might wrap ourselves (or our avatars) in a flag to represent our fellow feeling (which is a good and natural thing) for the victims of ISIS/Al Qaida terror if we don't do it for all (Russians, Iraqis, etc.).
But each to their own, and I might just be heartless.
This time I think I know where @sadiejane1981 is coming from. How about this one Sadie?
Although feeling absolutely dreadful about all the goings on in Belguim and honest heart felt condolences to all involved, it was one of these tragedies that will scar the world just as Paris did and London 7/7, not to forget 9/11, but I really really can't bring myself to use the Belgian flag on Facebook I've clicked on it a few times, then clicked off, is anyone else having the same mental block?
I would have no problem with it, but was put off by people slagging it off as being 'disrespectful' or 'sheeplike' or whatever - which then just causes more arguments about social media etiquette and what people are and aren't allowed to say when something like this happens. It does wind me up.
Although feeling absolutely dreadful about all the goings on in Belguim and honest heart felt condolences to all involved, it was one of these tragedies that will scar the world just as Paris did and London 7/7, not to forget 9/11, but I really really can't bring myself to use the Belgian flag on Facebook I've clicked on it a few times, then clicked off, is anyone else having the same mental block?
I can't help but think this and the arrest last week is all part of the I.S plan. What better place to recruit than the cushy EU prisons and jails when a cult 'hero' is on the wing.
Personally, it makes more sense to kill innocent people... Create more hate and recruit that way. I can't imagine a bomb making suicide attack mastermind being allowed to bowl around a prison recruiting
I can't help but think this and the arrest last week is all part of the I.S plan. What better place to recruit than the cushy EU prisons and jails when a cult 'hero' is on the wing.
Personally, it makes more sense to kill innocent people... Create more hate and recruit that way. I can't imagine a bomb making suicide attack mastermind being allowed to bowl around a prison recruiting
You would be seriously surprised.
Happy to be wrong and that bbc thing just now confirmed it
To those who advocate encouraging democracy in the middle east and to be honest that's something I don't disagree with, what do you do about the 'one man, one vote, once' phenomenon? Isn't it just a green light for handing permanent power to the religious nutters?
But that's where the example provided by post-WWII Germany is useful (as, indeed, is that of the theory behind the EU accession process). It wasn't perfect, but we should seek to learn from historical example.
In Germany, where there was only a limited history of democracy, following the war, the Western Zones were administered by Allied Powers, whilst seeking to create civil institutions that would be capable of supporting a democratic state.
Likewise, the EU accession process is intended to be about ensuring that each country joining the EU has certain basic standards.
The key thing is to work towards having institutions that are not reliant on cronyism and that will (hopefully) support civil society. None of this will happen overnight and, even where it is attempted, it's not to say that it will work flawlessly - it's not actually the easy option. Remember that liberal democracies have taken centuries to come about, for the most part.
There is nothing to stop the people electing idiots in any democracy, sadly; but you could require a level of constitutional safeguarding of minority and civil rights as part of any support for a country. Having an independent and professional judiciary, police, army and civil service would be an absolute necessity.
I don't want to make it seem like dictating terms (though it is, a bit). It doesn't have to happen in every country all at the one time. The opportunity was there with Iraq, in particular, it had been a relatively modern, wealthy society, with a large middle class (because you do need a middle class in the transition); but there was no post war planning - it's almost as if the US administration didn't want a successful Arab democracy...
The best chance today would be in either Lebanon or Tunisia where, for now, there is at least a form of democracy. If the West wanted to, we could help them transition to what we would find acceptable (but it would take significant resources and inward investment, in addition to helping with civil structures). The problem is that, with every month that passes where the young feel there is no hope, the chances of a happy outcome diminishes...
And, in the wings, are the jihadists and other nutjobs more than happy to exploit popular discontent.
I'm not sure that post war Germany and Iraq are good comparisons. Germany was and largely still is a homogenous, educated entity. Iraq is fractured along, ethnic and religious lines with massive feelings of victimhood running through all sections of society that make rational governanace rather problematic.
Anyway the obvious example of the one vote phenomenon in the middle east was the election of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and to a lesser extent Erdogan in Turkey. What do you do about uneducated/illiterate populations democratically electing right wing religious governments who then amend the constitution/abolish democracy and tranform their administrations into dictatorships?
To those who advocate encouraging democracy in the middle east and to be honest that's something I don't disagree with, what do you do about the 'one man, one vote, once' phenomenon? Isn't it just a green light for handing permanent power to the religious nutters?
But that's where the example provided by post-WWII Germany is useful (as, indeed, is that of the theory behind the EU accession process). It wasn't perfect, but we should seek to learn from historical example.
In Germany, where there was only a limited history of democracy, following the war, the Western Zones were administered by Allied Powers, whilst seeking to create civil institutions that would be capable of supporting a democratic state.
Likewise, the EU accession process is intended to be about ensuring that each country joining the EU has certain basic standards.
The key thing is to work towards having institutions that are not reliant on cronyism and that will (hopefully) support civil society. None of this will happen overnight and, even where it is attempted, it's not to say that it will work flawlessly - it's not actually the easy option. Remember that liberal democracies have taken centuries to come about, for the most part.
There is nothing to stop the people electing idiots in any democracy, sadly; but you could require a level of constitutional safeguarding of minority and civil rights as part of any support for a country. Having an independent and professional judiciary, police, army and civil service would be an absolute necessity.
I don't want to make it seem like dictating terms (though it is, a bit). It doesn't have to happen in every country all at the one time. The opportunity was there with Iraq, in particular, it had been a relatively modern, wealthy society, with a large middle class (because you do need a middle class in the transition); but there was no post war planning - it's almost as if the US administration didn't want a successful Arab democracy...
The best chance today would be in either Lebanon or Tunisia where, for now, there is at least a form of democracy. If the West wanted to, we could help them transition to what we would find acceptable (but it would take significant resources and inward investment, in addition to helping with civil structures). The problem is that, with every month that passes where the young feel there is no hope, the chances of a happy outcome diminishes...
And, in the wings, are the jihadists and other nutjobs more than happy to exploit popular discontent.
I'm not sure that post war Germany and Iraq are good comparisons. Germany was and largely still is a homogenous, educated entity. Iraq is fractured along, ethnic and religious lines with massive feelings of victimhood running through all sections of society that make rational governanace rather problematic.
Anyway the obvious example of the one vote phenomenon in the middle east was the election of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and to a lesser extent Erdogan in Turkey. What do you do about uneducated/illiterate populations democratically electing right wing religious governments who then amend the constitution/abolish democracy and tranform their administrations into dictatorships?
Invite em to live in Europe when it all goes tits up
To those who advocate encouraging democracy in the middle east and to be honest that's something I don't disagree with, what do you do about the 'one man, one vote, once' phenomenon? Isn't it just a green light for handing permanent power to the religious nutters?
But that's where the example provided by post-WWII Germany is useful (as, indeed, is that of the theory behind the EU accession process). It wasn't perfect, but we should seek to learn from historical example.
In Germany, where there was only a limited history of democracy, following the war, the Western Zones were administered by Allied Powers, whilst seeking to create civil institutions that would be capable of supporting a democratic state.
Likewise, the EU accession process is intended to be about ensuring that each country joining the EU has certain basic standards.
The key thing is to work towards having institutions that are not reliant on cronyism and that will (hopefully) support civil society. None of this will happen overnight and, even where it is attempted, it's not to say that it will work flawlessly - it's not actually the easy option. Remember that liberal democracies have taken centuries to come about, for the most part.
There is nothing to stop the people electing idiots in any democracy, sadly; but you could require a level of constitutional safeguarding of minority and civil rights as part of any support for a country. Having an independent and professional judiciary, police, army and civil service would be an absolute necessity.
I don't want to make it seem like dictating terms (though it is, a bit). It doesn't have to happen in every country all at the one time. The opportunity was there with Iraq, in particular, it had been a relatively modern, wealthy society, with a large middle class (because you do need a middle class in the transition); but there was no post war planning - it's almost as if the US administration didn't want a successful Arab democracy...
The best chance today would be in either Lebanon or Tunisia where, for now, there is at least a form of democracy. If the West wanted to, we could help them transition to what we would find acceptable (but it would take significant resources and inward investment, in addition to helping with civil structures). The problem is that, with every month that passes where the young feel there is no hope, the chances of a happy outcome diminishes...
And, in the wings, are the jihadists and other nutjobs more than happy to exploit popular discontent.
I'm not sure that post war Germany and Iraq are good comparisons. Germany was and largely still is a homogenous, educated entity. Iraq is fractured along, ethnic and religious lines with massive feelings of victimhood running through all sections of society that make rational governanace rather problematic.
Anyway the obvious example of the one vote phenomenon in the middle east was the election of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and to a lesser extent Erdogan in Turkey. What do you do about uneducated/illiterate populations democratically electing right wing religious governments who then amend the constitution/abolish democracy and tranform their administrations into dictatorships?
Invite em to live in Europe when it all goes tits up
To those who advocate encouraging democracy in the middle east and to be honest that's something I don't disagree with, what do you do about the 'one man, one vote, once' phenomenon? Isn't it just a green light for handing permanent power to the religious nutters?
But that's where the example provided by post-WWII Germany is useful (as, indeed, is that of the theory behind the EU accession process). It wasn't perfect, but we should seek to learn from historical example.
In Germany, where there was only a limited history of democracy, following the war, the Western Zones were administered by Allied Powers, whilst seeking to create civil institutions that would be capable of supporting a democratic state.
Likewise, the EU accession process is intended to be about ensuring that each country joining the EU has certain basic standards.
The key thing is to work towards having institutions that are not reliant on cronyism and that will (hopefully) support civil society. None of this will happen overnight and, even where it is attempted, it's not to say that it will work flawlessly - it's not actually the easy option. Remember that liberal democracies have taken centuries to come about, for the most part.
There is nothing to stop the people electing idiots in any democracy, sadly; but you could require a level of constitutional safeguarding of minority and civil rights as part of any support for a country. Having an independent and professional judiciary, police, army and civil service would be an absolute necessity.
I don't want to make it seem like dictating terms (though it is, a bit). It doesn't have to happen in every country all at the one time. The opportunity was there with Iraq, in particular, it had been a relatively modern, wealthy society, with a large middle class (because you do need a middle class in the transition); but there was no post war planning - it's almost as if the US administration didn't want a successful Arab democracy...
The best chance today would be in either Lebanon or Tunisia where, for now, there is at least a form of democracy. If the West wanted to, we could help them transition to what we would find acceptable (but it would take significant resources and inward investment, in addition to helping with civil structures). The problem is that, with every month that passes where the young feel there is no hope, the chances of a happy outcome diminishes...
And, in the wings, are the jihadists and other nutjobs more than happy to exploit popular discontent.
I'm not sure that post war Germany and Iraq are good comparisons. Germany was and largely still is a homogenous, educated entity. Iraq is fractured along, ethnic and religious lines with massive feelings of victimhood running through all sections of society that make rational governanace rather problematic.
Anyway the obvious example of the one vote phenomenon in the middle east was the election of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and to a lesser extent Erdogan in Turkey. What do you do about uneducated/illiterate populations democratically electing right wing religious governments who then amend the constitution/abolish democracy and tranform their administrations into dictatorships?
However, if you look at both Egypt and Turkey, you can see the dangers of clientalism in those sectors of society which one would hope would be the foundation of a democratic civic entity (judiciary, police, military, etc. - in Turkey, unusually, until recently the army had been the main guarantor of the secular [if not necessarily democratic] state, a legacy of Ataturk).
I agree that there is not a direct comparison between Germany in 1945 and Iraq post Saddam. But I would say that Iraq did have many of the attributes that would have assisted the creation of a democratic state. I would suggest that Iraq did have a reasonably large and well-educated professional class. Yes there were sectarian and ethnic divisions, which had been stoked both during the Iran-Iraq war and the years of sanctions after the "First" Gulf War/Kuwait invasion. However, the point I was trying to make is that, provided there is the will to do so, and there was not once the "Coalition of the Willing" deposed Saddam, nation states can be rebuilt into something better than what was there before.
In Germany the process took some 9-10 years; there is no indication of any post-conflict planning in Iraq, and the situation there has deteriorated precisely because of the vacuum that ensued. The disgrace (other than the legal foundations for the invasion) is that the victors did not even try to restructure the country.
We could certainly argue about whether the Sykes-Picot borders could have been redrawn (and the same thing did happen with the borders of West and East Germany - with hundreds of thousands of Germans being expelled from Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc.).
To those who advocate encouraging democracy in the middle east and to be honest that's something I don't disagree with, what do you do about the 'one man, one vote, once' phenomenon? Isn't it just a green light for handing permanent power to the religious nutters?
But that's where the example provided by post-WWII Germany is useful (as, indeed, is that of the theory behind the EU accession process). It wasn't perfect, but we should seek to learn from historical example.
In Germany, where there was only a limited history of democracy, following the war, the Western Zones were administered by Allied Powers, whilst seeking to create civil institutions that would be capable of supporting a democratic state.
Likewise, the EU accession process is intended to be about ensuring that each country joining the EU has certain basic standards.
The key thing is to work towards having institutions that are not reliant on cronyism and that will (hopefully) support civil society. None of this will happen overnight and, even where it is attempted, it's not to say that it will work flawlessly - it's not actually the easy option. Remember that liberal democracies have taken centuries to come about, for the most part.
There is nothing to stop the people electing idiots in any democracy, sadly; but you could require a level of constitutional safeguarding of minority and civil rights as part of any support for a country. Having an independent and professional judiciary, police, army and civil service would be an absolute necessity.
I don't want to make it seem like dictating terms (though it is, a bit). It doesn't have to happen in every country all at the one time. The opportunity was there with Iraq, in particular, it had been a relatively modern, wealthy society, with a large middle class (because you do need a middle class in the transition); but there was no post war planning - it's almost as if the US administration didn't want a successful Arab democracy...
The best chance today would be in either Lebanon or Tunisia where, for now, there is at least a form of democracy. If the West wanted to, we could help them transition to what we would find acceptable (but it would take significant resources and inward investment, in addition to helping with civil structures). The problem is that, with every month that passes where the young feel there is no hope, the chances of a happy outcome diminishes...
And, in the wings, are the jihadists and other nutjobs more than happy to exploit popular discontent.
I'm not sure that post war Germany and Iraq are good comparisons. Germany was and largely still is a homogenous, educated entity. Iraq is fractured along, ethnic and religious lines with massive feelings of victimhood running through all sections of society that make rational governanace rather problematic.
Anyway the obvious example of the one vote phenomenon in the middle east was the election of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and to a lesser extent Erdogan in Turkey. What do you do about uneducated/illiterate populations democratically electing right wing religious governments who then amend the constitution/abolish democracy and tranform their administrations into dictatorships?
Invite em to live in Europe when it all goes tits up
Don't Americans need a visa ?
I wouldn't say Obama was a dictator, see where you're going though, well done
The great unmentionable evil at the center of our culture is monotheism. From a barbaric Bronze Age text known as the Old Testament, three antihuman religions have evolved - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. These are sky-god religions. They are, literally patriarchal - God is the Omnipotent Father - hence the loathing of woman for 2000 years in those countries afflicted by the sky-god and his earthly male delegates.
Gore Vidal
Very profound words for a hairdresser.
Last time he did my hair ?
He just asked where i was going on holiday.
A great statement that proves he wasn't half cut at the time.
Brussels attacks: Salah Abdeslam’s address known all the time Friday, 25 March 2016 07:49 Abdeslam’s address has been known to the police since December. According to reports today (25 March) in La Dernière Heure and several Flemish media a police officer reported his address already on 7 December.
The Belgian body supervising the police, “Committee P”, has opened an investigation as to why the information was not circulated.
The police officer who was from Mechelen had noted in a report the address of 79 Rue des Quatre Vents in Molenbeek which was the place where Salah Abdeslam was captured last Friday. But the report was never transmitted to the anti-terrorism unit.
Comments
Bomb maker arrested and then not... A tin foil hat wearer might say that 'they' have there agent back
Personally, it makes more sense to kill innocent people... Create more hate and recruit that way. I can't imagine a bomb making suicide attack mastermind being allowed to bowl around a prison recruiting
"Americans claim the Belgians are like clueless ‘children’ who are too incompetent to handle today’s terror threat." - It doesn't really inspire much confidence when you realise that individuals located in Belgium seem to be pulling the strings for a terror campaign that has the entirety of Europe in it's sights.
Sounds like hard work an impossible task we could help with, would take time and patience with a lot of disagreements along the way, as with a teenager being asked to help clean the house "oh grrrr, do I have to mum"
My light hearted way of saying oh no more hard work for us. Lighthearted and dry sense of humour don't wash very well on here sometimes
I agree, I may have some ridiculous opinions but I like to think I know where to draw the line.
Not to mention the UK has arguably more experience and expertise with regards to terrorism than most of Europe.
Regardless of the impending referendum, greater cooperation is arguably our best chance at beating this scurge, and should be a priority for all countries involved.
Thinking of it, I think we went as far as liaising with Israeli's after 7/7 - as they had experience dealing with suicide bombers.
So whilst being a minority they are a large minority and it is all fine and well saying that the majority of peaceful Muslims will influence and stop this progression but history shows that is not the case. When has a silent, peaceful majority ever stopped a radical minority from exercising their warped ideology? Did the majority of the Germans stop Hitler and the Nazis murdering 7 million Jews/Gypsys/Gays and disabled people, did the majority of Russians prevent Stalin from murdering 20 million of his own people or the majority of Chinese stop Chairman Mao killing 80 million of his people? No absolutely not so why do we think that the Muslim majority can stop the Jihadists?
This is a World problem now and it will take a global effort to change things, I am not sure how, but bombing the bejeezus out of them is not the answer that is the best recruiting sergeant they have, because behind all these stupid numbnuts who strap bombs to themselves are some very savvy, smart people who are orchestrating this whole situation and the more conflict they can create the better. Does anyone not believe that this atrocity in Brussels was not in small part timed at least to have some influence on our Brexit vote? What better way to demonstrate the dangers of open borders than this? these people are smart and it would suit their purposes very well to create confusion, discord and chaos within the EU and beyond.
They rely on recruiting young, impressionable people who come from poor backgrounds, who have no jobs or prospects and promise them paradise. These idiots are suggestable and hence fall for the guff that the organisers trot out, there is never a chance they will put their lives on the line they are too busy plotting how they can be rich and influential, this isn't about religion its about money and power anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.
Like I said I don’t have the answers but this will carry on getting worse unless the world community can find a means of making fundamentalism unattractive and outmoded to the potential recruits.
Although feeling absolutely dreadful about all the goings on in Belguim and honest heart felt condolences to all involved, it was one of these tragedies that will scar the world just as Paris did and London 7/7, not to forget 9/11, but I really really can't bring myself to use the Belgian flag on Facebook I've clicked on it a few times, then clicked off, is anyone else having the same mental block?
I do have a concern where we might wrap ourselves (or our avatars) in a flag to represent our fellow feeling (which is a good and natural thing) for the victims of ISIS/Al Qaida terror if we don't do it for all (Russians, Iraqis, etc.).
But each to their own, and I might just be heartless.
You would be seriously surprised.
Happy to be wrong and that bbc thing just now confirmed it
Anyway the obvious example of the one vote phenomenon in the middle east was the election of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and to a lesser extent Erdogan in Turkey. What do you do about uneducated/illiterate populations democratically electing right wing religious governments who then amend the constitution/abolish democracy and tranform their administrations into dictatorships?
Don't Americans need a visa ?
I agree that there is not a direct comparison between Germany in 1945 and Iraq post Saddam. But I would say that Iraq did have many of the attributes that would have assisted the creation of a democratic state. I would suggest that Iraq did have a reasonably large and well-educated professional class. Yes there were sectarian and ethnic divisions, which had been stoked both during the Iran-Iraq war and the years of sanctions after the "First" Gulf War/Kuwait invasion. However, the point I was trying to make is that, provided there is the will to do so, and there was not once the "Coalition of the Willing" deposed Saddam, nation states can be rebuilt into something better than what was there before.
In Germany the process took some 9-10 years; there is no indication of any post-conflict planning in Iraq, and the situation there has deteriorated precisely because of the vacuum that ensued. The disgrace (other than the legal foundations for the invasion) is that the victors did not even try to restructure the country.
We could certainly argue about whether the Sykes-Picot borders could have been redrawn (and the same thing did happen with the borders of West and East Germany - with hundreds of thousands of Germans being expelled from Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc.).
He just asked where i was going on holiday.
A great statement that proves he wasn't half cut at the time.
Vidal is a very Sassy man.
Brussels attacks: Salah Abdeslam’s address known all the time
Friday, 25 March 2016 07:49
Abdeslam’s address has been known to the police since December.
According to reports today (25 March) in La Dernière Heure and several Flemish media a police officer reported his address already on 7 December.
The Belgian body supervising the police, “Committee P”, has opened an investigation as to why the information was not circulated.
The police officer who was from Mechelen had noted in a report the address of 79 Rue des Quatre Vents in Molenbeek which was the place where Salah Abdeslam was captured last Friday. But the report was never transmitted to the anti-terrorism unit.
The Brussels Times (Source: Belga)