More inforced vegetarianism! It's like when vegetarian guests come round for a meal and we don't eat meat. How comes as a strict carnivore I don't get the same treatment when we go round there gaff ?
I never expect meat eaters not to eat meat if I'm out with them or eating in their house. I'm happy to eat just veg if necessary. But as I don't ever have meat other than cat food in my house they would have to eat a vegetarian meal. But I would let people know in advance. If that means they can't visit then so be it.
I've not been following this discussion, but I thought some vegans were very upset that they have to handle £5 notes with tallin in (or something like that).
Yet you will quite happily handle cat meat ? Is this correct, because if so why is it so distressing for one and yet not the other actual meat product ? (If I've got this wrong sorry).
For about the 50th time. When we got our cats we weren't vegetarian. Cats cannot eat a meatless diet. I'm not going to get rid of them or put them down. When they die I would get a pet that could exist on a vegetarian diet - a dog. I love my cats so because of that I accept I need to handle meat or fish for them. You might think that hippocritical but as I have said before none of us are perfect.
More inforced vegetarianism! It's like when vegetarian guests come round for a meal and we don't eat meat. How comes as a strict carnivore I don't get the same treatment when we go round there gaff ?
I never expect meat eaters not to eat meat if I'm out with them or eating in their house. I'm happy to eat just veg if necessary. But as I don't ever have meat other than cat food in my house they would have to eat a vegetarian meal. But I would let people know in advance. If that means they can't visit then so be it.
If you had guests over and one of them requested meat, not a demand just a "I'm coming straight from the gym do you mind cooking me some chicken /fish?" Would you be happy to do it?
Funnily enough I was sat next to two vegans at a recent wedding, they thought fivers were fine and that dozens of everyday products use animal byproducts that are totally fine. They understand that these byproducts would not exist if the meat industry didn't exist and it's better to use these than try to source unnatural alternatives for no real reason.
All the argument on this has been done to death. I find it repugnant that the state forces me to compromise my core beliefs. When there are alternative ingredients for the fiver. Some think that is funny. We're not going to change our minds so I'm going to try not to respond about this anymore.
More inforced vegetarianism! It's like when vegetarian guests come round for a meal and we don't eat meat. How comes as a strict carnivore I don't get the same treatment when we go round there gaff ?
I never expect meat eaters not to eat meat if I'm out with them or eating in their house. I'm happy to eat just veg if necessary. But as I don't ever have meat other than cat food in my house they would have to eat a vegetarian meal. But I would let people know in advance. If that means they can't visit then so be it.
I've not been following this discussion, but I thought some vegans were very upset that they have to handle £5 notes with tallin in (or something like that).
Yet you will quite happily handle cat meat ? Is this correct, because if so why is it so distressing for one and yet not the other actual meat product ? (If I've got this wrong sorry).
For about the 50th time. When we got our cats we weren't vegetarian. Cats cannot eat a meatless diet. I'm not going to get rid of them or put them down. When they die I would get a pet that could exist on a vegetarian diet - a dog. I love my cats so because of that I accept I need to handle meat or fish for them. You might think that hippocritical but as I have said before none of us are perfect.
Yet you're quite happy to abuse the nomenclature of the humble hippo to prove your point.
More inforced vegetarianism! It's like when vegetarian guests come round for a meal and we don't eat meat. How comes as a strict carnivore I don't get the same treatment when we go round there gaff ?
I never expect meat eaters not to eat meat if I'm out with them or eating in their house. I'm happy to eat just veg if necessary. But as I don't ever have meat other than cat food in my house they would have to eat a vegetarian meal. But I would let people know in advance. If that means they can't visit then so be it.
I've not been following this discussion, but I thought some vegans were very upset that they have to handle £5 notes with tallin in (or something like that).
Yet you will quite happily handle cat meat ? Is this correct, because if so why is it so distressing for one and yet not the other actual meat product ? (If I've got this wrong sorry).
For about the 50th time. When we got our cats we weren't vegetarian. Cats cannot eat a meatless diet. I'm not going to get rid of them or put them down. When they die I would get a pet that could exist on a vegetarian diet - a dog. I love my cats so because of that I accept I need to handle meat or fish for them. You might think that hippocritical but as I have said before none of us are perfect.
Thanks for the explanation. Yes if you handle meat for your cats, but get outraged at having to handle a £5, that is the height of hypocrisy. But I do understand why (kind of).
A bit like Diane Abbott being against Grammar & Private Fee paying schools and sending her child there.
The height of hypocrisy, but you can understand why.
Whilst travelling through the upper reaches of enlightenment I have had the opportunity to assess the relative levels of hypocrisy, and i believe there are higher levels than the schools and the cat food examples. Maybe hypocrisy doesn't actually have 'height' as such, maybe it is circular, maybe hypocrisy is hypocrisy the same way every time. maybe we are all struggling with hypocrisy. Carry on.
It's not even really hypocrisy. Hypocrisy would be forcing veganism on others whilst you still ate meat. What is largely being described here is inconsistency.
The only way one could be truly vegan is if they moved out into a remote field somewhere and grew their own veg. More or less every interaction with the modern world will involve either an animal product, an animal by-product, or a production processes that leads to the detriment or harm of animals. Where you personally draw the line is up to you, and only you. Trying to force your beliefs on others, or whinging that others or the Government are not adhering to your personal beliefs, is just silly.
More inforced vegetarianism! It's like when vegetarian guests come round for a meal and we don't eat meat. How comes as a strict carnivore I don't get the same treatment when we go round there gaff ?
I never expect meat eaters not to eat meat if I'm out with them or eating in their house. I'm happy to eat just veg if necessary. But as I don't ever have meat other than cat food in my house they would have to eat a vegetarian meal. But I would let people know in advance. If that means they can't visit then so be it.
If you had guests over and one of them requested meat, not a demand just a "I'm coming straight from the gym do you mind cooking me some chicken /fish?" Would you be happy to do it?
More inforced vegetarianism! It's like when vegetarian guests come round for a meal and we don't eat meat. How comes as a strict carnivore I don't get the same treatment when we go round there gaff ?
I never expect meat eaters not to eat meat if I'm out with them or eating in their house. I'm happy to eat just veg if necessary. But as I don't ever have meat other than cat food in my house they would have to eat a vegetarian meal. But I would let people know in advance. If that means they can't visit then so be it.
If you had guests over and one of them requested meat, not a demand just a "I'm coming straight from the gym do you mind cooking me some chicken /fish?" Would you be happy to do it?
No.
Would you eat a chicken to save another chickens life?
More inforced vegetarianism! It's like when vegetarian guests come round for a meal and we don't eat meat. How comes as a strict carnivore I don't get the same treatment when we go round there gaff ?
I never expect meat eaters not to eat meat if I'm out with them or eating in their house. I'm happy to eat just veg if necessary. But as I don't ever have meat other than cat food in my house they would have to eat a vegetarian meal. But I would let people know in advance. If that means they can't visit then so be it.
If you had guests over and one of them requested meat, not a demand just a "I'm coming straight from the gym do you mind cooking me some chicken /fish?" Would you be happy to do it?
No.
Would you eat a chicken to save another chickens life?
More inforced vegetarianism! It's like when vegetarian guests come round for a meal and we don't eat meat. How comes as a strict carnivore I don't get the same treatment when we go round there gaff ?
I never expect meat eaters not to eat meat if I'm out with them or eating in their house. I'm happy to eat just veg if necessary. But as I don't ever have meat other than cat food in my house they would have to eat a vegetarian meal. But I would let people know in advance. If that means they can't visit then so be it.
If you had guests over and one of them requested meat, not a demand just a "I'm coming straight from the gym do you mind cooking me some chicken /fish?" Would you be happy to do it?
No.
Would you eat a chicken to save another chickens life?
; )
Don't start on the chicken stuff. I thought I was on your list of people you'd like to have dinner with?!
More inforced vegetarianism! It's like when vegetarian guests come round for a meal and we don't eat meat. How comes as a strict carnivore I don't get the same treatment when we go round there gaff ?
I never expect meat eaters not to eat meat if I'm out with them or eating in their house. I'm happy to eat just veg if necessary. But as I don't ever have meat other than cat food in my house they would have to eat a vegetarian meal. But I would let people know in advance. If that means they can't visit then so be it.
If you had guests over and one of them requested meat, not a demand just a "I'm coming straight from the gym do you mind cooking me some chicken /fish?" Would you be happy to do it?
No.
Would you eat a chicken to save another chickens life?
; )
Don't start on the chicken stuff. I thought I was on your list of people you'd like to have dinner with?!
More inforced vegetarianism! It's like when vegetarian guests come round for a meal and we don't eat meat. How comes as a strict carnivore I don't get the same treatment when we go round there gaff ?
I never expect meat eaters not to eat meat if I'm out with them or eating in their house. I'm happy to eat just veg if necessary. But as I don't ever have meat other than cat food in my house they would have to eat a vegetarian meal. But I would let people know in advance. If that means they can't visit then so be it.
If you had guests over and one of them requested meat, not a demand just a "I'm coming straight from the gym do you mind cooking me some chicken /fish?" Would you be happy to do it?
No.
Would you eat a chicken to save another chickens life?
More inforced vegetarianism! It's like when vegetarian guests come round for a meal and we don't eat meat. How comes as a strict carnivore I don't get the same treatment when we go round there gaff ?
I never expect meat eaters not to eat meat if I'm out with them or eating in their house. I'm happy to eat just veg if necessary. But as I don't ever have meat other than cat food in my house they would have to eat a vegetarian meal. But I would let people know in advance. If that means they can't visit then so be it.
If you had guests over and one of them requested meat, not a demand just a "I'm coming straight from the gym do you mind cooking me some chicken /fish?" Would you be happy to do it?
No.
Fair enough, I wasn't going anywhere with that just curious.
Funnily enough I was sat next to two vegans at a recent wedding, they thought fivers were fine and that dozens of everyday products use animal byproducts that are totally fine. They understand that these byproducts would not exist if the meat industry didn't exist and it's better to use these than try to source unnatural alternatives for no real reason.
Bang on. These points and of course the fact that to use this waste byproduct is actually better for the environment and conservation as a whole. These are the main things for me. If you are worried about animal welfare (and rightly so) then you need to look at the bigger picture. That is preserving the environment and conservation of ecosystems.
As I explained in detail further up in this thread. To not use this waste by product of the meat industry (about 15th use of a dead cow) would mean this stuff ends up in a landfill. The alternative needs significant chemicals in production and has some pretty horrendous chemical byproducts which are released into the water system and eventually find their way into rivers and lakes. These are seriously harmful for some rare birds/insects etc. And that's before you take into account the pollution and other environmental costs of running a second much more complex production process..
I get that in an ideal world the notes wouldn't contain this. But we such a world doesn't exist. I question someone's motives if they can't see the bigger picture on this one. The fact is its better for the environment and wildlife to do it this way. Which animals welfare are we prioritising here.
I genuinely think that anyone who isn't blinkered will see the bigger picture on this one and say it's a battle too far.
I don't wish to have to use animal products when there is no need so to do. There are non animal alternatives to tallow. What don't you understand. The use of tallow is an unnecessary imposition on those who don't want to for ethical, or for religious reasons, use these notes. It's an extreme, to me, statement from the powers that be that my position is worthless. Well ok don't expect me to rush in support of anything else the government demands support over.
I don't wish to have to use animal products when there is no need so to do. There are non animal alternatives to tallow. What don't you understand. The use of tallow is an unnecessary imposition on those who don't want to for ethical, or for religious reasons, use these notes. It's an extreme, to me, statement from the powers that be that my position is worthless. Well ok don't expect me to rush in support of anything else the government demands support over.
But The alternative is much worse for animals in the wild and their welfare....
The 15th use means that the animal is well and truly dead before the tallow is used and either way it'll stay dead.
More inforced vegetarianism! It's like when vegetarian guests come round for a meal and we don't eat meat. How comes as a strict carnivore I don't get the same treatment when we go round there gaff ?
I don't wish to have to use animal products when there is no need so to do. There are non animal alternatives to tallow. What don't you understand. The use of tallow is an unnecessary imposition on those who don't want to for ethical, or for religious reasons, use these notes. It's an extreme, to me, statement from the powers that be that my position is worthless. Well ok don't expect me to rush in support of anything else the government demands support over.
But The alternative is much worse for animals in the wild and their welfare....
The 15th use means that the animal is well and truly dead before the tallow is used and either way it'll stay dead.
And. I. Don't. Wish. To. Be. Complicit. In. Any. Unnecessary. Use. Of. Animal. Products. Why don't you actually read what I say. Don't come up with these spurious stupid arguments. You're happy to use unnecessary animal products in the production of bank notes, I'm not. I have ethical reasons for this that mean whether it's first or millionth use I am compromised by these fivers. Please let that sink in to your so far unthinking brain.
I think the thing that people are struggling with mate, is that you're actively buying meat products for your cats and facilitate the mass killing of wild songbirds each year just by keeping them, but then you're so vehemently against these new fivers, which contain a very questionable amount of tallow. One would think that someone so committed to the cause would be completely whiter than white in every aspect of their life as far as animal products are concerned. Even accepting your reasons for having cats, the fact that you are so vocal about the fivers, maybe doesn't stand with most people.
I know your intentions regarding your cats etc. and it is completely your decision what you choose to buy regarding animal products, but you must see the glaring hypocrisy in your argument?
As I said, the only reason I'm pointing this out is because we're in a discussion about it, I'm not sniping in any way.
Reminds me of Jools Holland in an interview when he said he was a biker in his younger days, but never actually had a bike. He would put the leathers on, the biker boots and the gloves and scarf etc. etc., then go and stand at the bus stop.
For me the link between cat food and the £5 issue is quite an interesting one. I don't pretend to know the facts about what cat food is made from, largely arseholes and lips I would imagine, but generally I'm guessing it's the stuff you or I wouldn't eat, therefore a lot of it is a byproduct of killing the animals for us (I am sure this is not the case for some animals, but for the purposes of this point) which is exactly what this tallow is.
Wasting part of the animal would surely be the worst thing that could happen. Basically if we hadn't used tallow there wouldn't be half a cow running around in the fields still. The only way you can truly save animals is by not eating them, as that must be the determinant of supply? Anything else that uses animal products is positive in my opinion, if we must kill animals, we should at least use every salvageable part.
All the argument on this has been done to death. I find it repugnant that the state forces me to compromise my core beliefs. When there are alternative ingredients for the fiver. Some think that is funny. We're not going to change our minds so I'm going to try not to respond about this anymore.
No it's not, here's another argument.
We share 67% of our genetic material with fungi. We both evolved from the slime that crawled from the sea onto land and did not synthesis chlorophyll. So if you eat Quorn you are eating material that is more animal than plant.
Vegetarianism is an emotional state based on a subjective perception of what is animal, what is plant and what is sentient and what is not. Would slug slime in a fiver be against vegetarian beliefs? Is a slug more sentient than a mushroom just because it can move? Is it OK to swat a fly that annoys you or an insect that spreads disease?
The only reason vegetarianism can exist is because the original plants which our prehistoric ancestors had available have been genetically bred to provide nourishment that makes eating them worth the effort. Try living off grass seed, parsley roots, crab apples and chickweed if you think vegetarianism is the true human state we were designed to live. We burned energy and survived on the fat from animals, not meagre amounts of carbohydrates from the naturally evolved plants available. We were also struggling to source imported soya beans, quinoa and goji berries from 2 thousand miles away.
No one is denying freedom of belief, but expecting others to accommodate and adapt normal activities to conform to an idiosyncratic and contradictory belief system because you demand it, is arrogance.
No problem vegetarians upholding the faith on the (theoretical) grounds of helping the planet, but moral grounds and offence at tallow in a fiver cannot be taken seriously by non believers. We have more in common with a mushroom than a fiver has with a cow.
Feelings, beliefs and personal choices are the new facts.
It is a fact that wherever possible I do not consume animal products. It is a fact that there alternatives to using tallow in the production of banknotes. It is a fact that this means I am presented with a moral dilemma daily that could have been avoided by due diligence in the production meetings before making the new fiver.
Rubbish, and largely irrelevant, facts.
Evidently not rubbish and largely irrelevant facts to iainment. He's entitled to his opinion and beliefs, same as each one of us.
It is a moral dilemma to some people though. And it's a fair point that in this day and age, why is it necessary to use such a primitive product as tallow when technology is so advanced?
There's no doubt a synthetic substance available. After all, they are polymer bank notes.
Two thirds of the 'facts' presented actually come about due to personal choice.
One 'chooses' not to consume animal products. The knock on effect isn't that society then forces something on someone. It could be argued that the forcing has been completely self made.
Being presented with a moral dilemma due to ones own choices is not the fault of anyone but the person who makes the choices.
Like I said, beliefs and personal choices are the new facts.
I believe I have gone through several stages of enlightenment, because if any thread is guaranteed to bring out needless vitriol about a minority of people it is one regarding vegetarianism. However my level of enlightenment just now means I don't give a damn about the critics any more, pour it on boys and girls, pour it on.
Pour it on indeed. I certainly don't give a flying fuck what any of the meat munchers think, their snidey little comments mean nothing anymore.
Comments
I love my cats so because of that I accept I need to handle meat or fish for them.
You might think that hippocritical but as I have said before none of us are perfect.
A bit like Diane Abbott being against Grammar & Private Fee paying schools and sending her child there.
The height of hypocrisy, but you can understand why.
Maybe hypocrisy doesn't actually have 'height' as such, maybe it is circular, maybe hypocrisy is hypocrisy the same way every time. maybe we are all struggling with hypocrisy.
Carry on.
The only way one could be truly vegan is if they moved out into a remote field somewhere and grew their own veg. More or less every interaction with the modern world will involve either an animal product, an animal by-product, or a production processes that leads to the detriment or harm of animals. Where you personally draw the line is up to you, and only you. Trying to force your beliefs on others, or whinging that others or the Government are not adhering to your personal beliefs, is just silly.
; )
; )
As I explained in detail further up in this thread. To not use this waste by product of the meat industry (about 15th use of a dead cow) would mean this stuff ends up in a landfill. The alternative needs significant chemicals in production and has some pretty horrendous chemical byproducts which are released into the water system and eventually find their way into rivers and lakes. These are seriously harmful for some rare birds/insects etc. And that's before you take into account the pollution and other environmental costs of running a second much more complex production process..
I get that in an ideal world the notes wouldn't contain this. But we such a world doesn't exist. I question someone's motives if they can't see the bigger picture on this one. The fact is its better for the environment and wildlife to do it this way. Which animals welfare are we prioritising here.
I genuinely think that anyone who isn't blinkered will see the bigger picture on this one and say it's a battle too far.
What don't you understand. The use of tallow is an unnecessary imposition on those who don't want to for ethical, or for religious reasons, use these notes.
It's an extreme, to me, statement from the powers that be that my position is worthless. Well ok don't expect me to rush in support of anything else the government demands support over.
The 15th use means that the animal is well and truly dead before the tallow is used and either way it'll stay dead.
Why don't you actually read what I say. Don't come up with these spurious stupid arguments. You're happy to use unnecessary animal products in the production of bank notes, I'm not. I have ethical reasons for this that mean whether it's first or millionth use I am compromised by these fivers.
Please let that sink in to your so far unthinking brain.
I think the thing that people are struggling with mate, is that you're actively buying meat products for your cats and facilitate the mass killing of wild songbirds each year just by keeping them, but then you're so vehemently against these new fivers, which contain a very questionable amount of tallow. One would think that someone so committed to the cause would be completely whiter than white in every aspect of their life as far as animal products are concerned. Even accepting your reasons for having cats, the fact that you are so vocal about the fivers, maybe doesn't stand with most people.
I know your intentions regarding your cats etc. and it is completely your decision what you choose to buy regarding animal products, but you must see the glaring hypocrisy in your argument?
As I said, the only reason I'm pointing this out is because we're in a discussion about it, I'm not sniping in any way.
Reminds me of Jools Holland in an interview when he said he was a biker in his younger days, but never actually had a bike. He would put the leathers on, the biker boots and the gloves and scarf etc. etc., then go and stand at the bus stop.
Wasting part of the animal would surely be the worst thing that could happen. Basically if we hadn't used tallow there wouldn't be half a cow running around in the fields still. The only way you can truly save animals is by not eating them, as that must be the determinant of supply? Anything else that uses animal products is positive in my opinion, if we must kill animals, we should at least use every salvageable part.
One 'chooses' not to consume animal products. The knock on effect isn't that society then forces something on someone. It could be argued that the forcing has been completely self made.
Being presented with a moral dilemma due to ones own choices is not the fault of anyone but the person who makes the choices.
Like I said, beliefs and personal choices are the new facts.
Pour it on indeed. I certainly don't give a flying fuck what any of the meat munchers think, their snidey little comments mean nothing anymore.