Never mind the VAR, how on earth did the linesman miss it? It was a free-kick - aren't the lino's supposed to stand in line with the defenders as it's taken?
Never mind the VAR, how on earth did the linesman miss it? It was a free-kick - aren't the lino's supposed to stand in line with the defenders as it's taken?
What, in line with all "stretched out" defenders? -:) Should be in line with the second defender nearest the goal line (the goalkeeper is nearly always, but not exclusively, the last defender).
Never mind the VAR, how on earth did the linesman miss it? It was a free-kick - aren't the lino's supposed to stand in line with the defenders as it's taken?
What, in line with all "stretched out" defenders? -:) Should be in line with the second defender nearest the goal line (the goalkeeper is nearly always, but not exclusively, the last defender).
Have a look at the picture on the story bud. The entire defence is standing literally on the 18 yard line, but there are 3 forwards a yard inside the penalty area - including an attacking player who is actually the closest player on the pitch to the lino! The defenders don't look very "stretched out" either. This is a free kick not in the middle of the action where the lino might have had to run to catch up to play. I was giving the lino the benefit of the doubt by saying he must have been out of position - if he isn't I can't give any other reason he would have not flagged!
Never mind the VAR, how on earth did the linesman miss it? It was a free-kick - aren't the lino's supposed to stand in line with the defenders as it's taken?
What, in line with all "stretched out" defenders? -:) Should be in line with the second defender nearest the goal line (the goalkeeper is nearly always, but not exclusively, the last defender).
Have a look at the picture on the story bud. The entire defence is standing literally on the 18 yard line, but there are 3 forwards a yard inside the penalty area - including an attacking player who is actually the closest player on the pitch to the lino! The defenders don't look very "stretched out" either. This is a free kick not in the middle of the action where the lino might have had to run to catch up to play. I was giving the lino the benefit of the doubt by saying he must have been out of position - if he isn't I can't give any other reason he would have not flagged!
Not having a go at you @Manicmania but a picture only shows you the position of players at the point the ball is played. You need to see the video to establish whether or not the forward who played the ball was one of those who was in an offside position when the ball was played via the freekick.
In other words, the picture in isolation tells us nothing.
...except that it was offside! (all three attackers are in offside positions so unless someone came steaming in from 25 yards away its obviously one of the three!) lol
Take your point though. TBF to the lino, on second look it does appear he is moving - I imagine the defensive line stepped forward and that is probably why he is behind them instead of in line with them.
On the other hand if he can't keep up with the defenders positioning when the ball is static it doesn't bode well for him in general play does it!
Anyway not the point of the thread - although one wonders if the lino didn't flag because he knew he had VAR back up to bail him out- which to me is one of the big concerns with VAR.
...except that it was offside! (all three attackers are in offside positions so unless someone came steaming in from 25 yards away its obviously one of the three!) lol
Take your point though. TBF to the lino, on second look it does appear he is moving - I imagine the defensive line stepped forward and that is probably why he is behind them instead of in line with them.
On the other hand if he can't keep up with the defenders positioning when the ball is static it doesn't bode well for him in general play does it!
Anyway not the point of the thread - although one wonders if the lino didn't flag because he knew he had VAR back up to bail him out- which to me is one of the big concerns with VAR.
There was an extremely interesting programme on TV about nine months ago, where Jamie C and Gary Neville attended a Premier officials training session.
One aspect of that session was that both pundits were put through a test whereby defenders ran out from goal whilst attackers ran towards the goal. The pundits then had to determine whether it was or wasnt offside when the ball was played. Neither pundit did particularly well and both were enlightened as to how difficult the job is
Controversial VAR moment at the end of the Bayern Munich cup game.
Bayern Munich are losing 2-1 in added time. They're throwing everyone forward and Javi Martinez is fouled in the box.
Referee misses it and awards the corner. As per VAR protocol, he gets a bloke in his ear telling him to go over to the video replay to review his own decision. So he does.
Clear contact from the defender with no touch on the ball. It's a definite penalty.
Referee refuses to overrule his own decision and stays with his initial decision of a corner.
Bayern eventually lose the match 3-1 after Frankfurt walk the ball into an empty net at the other end.
Controversial VAR moment at the end of the Bayern Munich cup game.
Bayern Munich are losing 2-1 in added time. They're throwing everyone forward and Javi Martinez is fouled in the box.
Referee misses it and awards the corner. As per VAR protocol, he gets a bloke in his ear telling him to go over to the video replay to review his own decision. So he does.
Clear contact from the defender with no touch on the ball. It's a definite penalty.
Referee refuses to overrule his own decision and stays with his initial decision of a corner.
Bayern eventually lose the match 3-1 after Frankfurt walk the ball into an empty net at the other end.
Watched that back about 10 times and I'm still not 100% sure so wouldn't say it's that clear cut - there is a tap to the bottom part on his raised foot - but he went down VERY easily for me - not sure why contact to his raised foot (which barely moved on impact) would cause his standing foot to give way at all? He was looking for it to my eyes. Edit - look at the way his standing foot swings out wildly as his other foot is touched it doesn't look like a natural reaction to the contact AT ALL!
Is it any contact at all in the box = pen? or should it not be if that contact impedes or trips a player?
That touch to the bottom of the foot was no more conspicuous to all kinds of incidents in the box where players are in contact with each other without touching the ball - it took me 3 or 4 re-watches to be certain there even was contact at all! But as I said you can see Martinez' foot does VERY slightly move as the defender basically air-swipes towards it. Think it's arguable that level of contact should have been enough to bring him down or impede his play though (I guarantee it wouldn't have been enough if he was in the middle of the 6 yard box with a gaping net in front of him - that standing leg would have stayed firmly planted on the ground)
I've seen them given for less but Martinez was obviously looking for any contact at all and he was going to go down like a ton of bricks and that's probably how the ref has interpreted it - I think I might have given it in the end based on the footage and 10 or so re-watches, but I can sympathise with why it wasn't.
To me it's irrelevant what happens to his right leg or any other part of his body, or whether the player was looking for it or not. The left foot was clearly accidentally contacted with force after the ball had already left. That's surely a foul and I don't see how you can come to a different conclusion.
To me it's irrelevant what happens to his right leg or any other part of his body, or whether the player was looking for it or not. The left foot was clearly accidentally contacted with force after the ball had already left. That's surely a foul and I don't see how you can come to a different conclusion.
It's not irrelevant at all. We've all seen countless fouls/penalties not given because a player over reacted and tried to make a meal of it.
I agree with @Manicmania that Martinez is clearly looking for the pen. I think the contact was minimal and whatever he was doing with his right leg would've helped the ref to decide against giving it. It's quite possible that if he'd gone down naturally then the ref might have given it. But not with those theatrics, he's barely touched on his left foot yet his right leg goes flying.
VAR in the World Cup will be made to work by the authorities. Personally I think it’s another nail in the coffin for the beautiful game. The only technology I will welcome is goal line. Everything else ought to rest with the three officials.
Controversial VAR moment at the end of the Bayern Munich cup game.
Bayern Munich are losing 2-1 in added time. They're throwing everyone forward and Javi Martinez is fouled in the box.
Referee misses it and awards the corner. As per VAR protocol, he gets a bloke in his ear telling him to go over to the video replay to review his own decision. So he does.
Clear contact from the defender with no touch on the ball. It's a definite penalty.
Referee refuses to overrule his own decision and stays with his initial decision of a corner.
Bayern eventually lose the match 3-1 after Frankfurt walk the ball into an empty net at the other end.
Watched that back about 10 times and I'm still not 100% sure so wouldn't say it's that clear cut - there is a tap to the bottom part on his raised foot - but he went down VERY easily for me - not sure why contact to his raised foot (which barely moved on impact) would cause his standing foot to give way at all? He was looking for it to my eyes. Edit - look at the way his standing foot swings out wildly as his other foot is touched it doesn't look like a natural reaction to the contact AT ALL!
Is it any contact at all in the box = pen? or should it not be if that contact impedes or trips a player?
That touch to the bottom of the foot was no more conspicuous to all kinds of incidents in the box where players are in contact with each other without touching the ball - it took me 3 or 4 re-watches to be certain there even was contact at all! But as I said you can see Martinez' foot does VERY slightly move as the defender basically air-swipes towards it. Think it's arguable that level of contact should have been enough to bring him down or impede his play though (I guarantee it wouldn't have been enough if he was in the middle of the 6 yard box with a gaping net in front of him - that standing leg would have stayed firmly planted on the ground)
I've seen them given for less but Martinez was obviously looking for any contact at all and he was going to go down like a ton of bricks and that's probably how the ref has interpreted it - I think I might have given it in the end based on the footage and 10 or so re-watches, but I can sympathise with why it wasn't.
So 10 views and still not sure? It all comes down to opinion. That being the case, why not leave it to the first bloke's opinion and keep the game more or less the same at all levels?
Controversial VAR moment at the end of the Bayern Munich cup game.
Bayern Munich are losing 2-1 in added time. They're throwing everyone forward and Javi Martinez is fouled in the box.
Referee misses it and awards the corner. As per VAR protocol, he gets a bloke in his ear telling him to go over to the video replay to review his own decision. So he does.
Clear contact from the defender with no touch on the ball. It's a definite penalty.
Referee refuses to overrule his own decision and stays with his initial decision of a corner.
Bayern eventually lose the match 3-1 after Frankfurt walk the ball into an empty net at the other end.
Watched that back about 10 times and I'm still not 100% sure so wouldn't say it's that clear cut - there is a tap to the bottom part on his raised foot - but he went down VERY easily for me - not sure why contact to his raised foot (which barely moved on impact) would cause his standing foot to give way at all? He was looking for it to my eyes. Edit - look at the way his standing foot swings out wildly as his other foot is touched it doesn't look like a natural reaction to the contact AT ALL!
Is it any contact at all in the box = pen? or should it not be if that contact impedes or trips a player?
That touch to the bottom of the foot was no more conspicuous to all kinds of incidents in the box where players are in contact with each other without touching the ball - it took me 3 or 4 re-watches to be certain there even was contact at all! But as I said you can see Martinez' foot does VERY slightly move as the defender basically air-swipes towards it. Think it's arguable that level of contact should have been enough to bring him down or impede his play though (I guarantee it wouldn't have been enough if he was in the middle of the 6 yard box with a gaping net in front of him - that standing leg would have stayed firmly planted on the ground)
I've seen them given for less but Martinez was obviously looking for any contact at all and he was going to go down like a ton of bricks and that's probably how the ref has interpreted it - I think I might have given it in the end based on the footage and 10 or so re-watches, but I can sympathise with why it wasn't.
So 10 views and still not sure? It all comes down to opinion. That being the case, why not leave it to the first bloke's opinion and keep the game more or less the same at all levels?
Yeah its very subjective. I'd like to see only objective decisions use VAR such as mistaken identity for red cards and offside decisions on goals. There is a reason goal line tech has been so successful and welcomed without controversy - the ball is either objectively over the line or it isn't - that's how we should use VAR in my opinion - at least to start with.
Controversial VAR moment at the end of the Bayern Munich cup game.
Bayern Munich are losing 2-1 in added time. They're throwing everyone forward and Javi Martinez is fouled in the box.
Referee misses it and awards the corner. As per VAR protocol, he gets a bloke in his ear telling him to go over to the video replay to review his own decision. So he does.
Clear contact from the defender with no touch on the ball. It's a definite penalty.
Referee refuses to overrule his own decision and stays with his initial decision of a corner.
Bayern eventually lose the match 3-1 after Frankfurt walk the ball into an empty net at the other end.
Watched that back about 10 times and I'm still not 100% sure so wouldn't say it's that clear cut - there is a tap to the bottom part on his raised foot - but he went down VERY easily for me - not sure why contact to his raised foot (which barely moved on impact) would cause his standing foot to give way at all? He was looking for it to my eyes. Edit - look at the way his standing foot swings out wildly as his other foot is touched it doesn't look like a natural reaction to the contact AT ALL!
Is it any contact at all in the box = pen? or should it not be if that contact impedes or trips a player?
That touch to the bottom of the foot was no more conspicuous to all kinds of incidents in the box where players are in contact with each other without touching the ball - it took me 3 or 4 re-watches to be certain there even was contact at all! But as I said you can see Martinez' foot does VERY slightly move as the defender basically air-swipes towards it. Think it's arguable that level of contact should have been enough to bring him down or impede his play though (I guarantee it wouldn't have been enough if he was in the middle of the 6 yard box with a gaping net in front of him - that standing leg would have stayed firmly planted on the ground)
I've seen them given for less but Martinez was obviously looking for any contact at all and he was going to go down like a ton of bricks and that's probably how the ref has interpreted it - I think I might have given it in the end based on the footage and 10 or so re-watches, but I can sympathise with why it wasn't.
So 10 views and still not sure? It all comes down to opinion. That being the case, why not leave it to the first bloke's opinion and keep the game more or less the same at all levels?
Yeah its very subjective. I'd like to see only objective decisions use VAR such as mistaken identity for red cards and offside decisions on goals. There is a reason goal line tech has been so successful and welcomed without controversy - the ball is either objectively over the line or it isn't - that's how we should use VAR in my opinion - at least to start with.
Hallelujah..... Still some numpties will want it for winning the toss next. Was the coin flat on the ground or not.
After a couple of seasons with the VAR in the A-League, I hate the thought of this being introduced everywhere. Watching a game and not know if you actually should celebrate a goal, as they might have to check a few things. During an A-League game, something slightly dodgy happens. Game continues, but you have a flashing VAR icon in the top of the screen. They're checking it. It then either turns green (game continues) or red and ref stops play. We've lived with the errors from refs, since this game was invented. This has always been part of football, created talking points and made this game so special! And as someone else has highlighted - linesman might not want to flag for offside. If the player was offside, VAR will sort it out anyway for him, where if he (incorrectly) flags for offside, VAR can do nothing to correct the mistake.
I’ve posted this before but the reason football is the most popular sport on the planet is because it’s basically simple. Beautiful, physical, and has just the right amount of potential for controversy.
I’ve posted this before but the reason football is the most popular sport on the planet is because it’s basically simple. Beautiful, physical, and has just the right amount of potential for controversy.
Leave the fuck alone.
It was available yesterday for the FA cup game and I think there were only 2 instances where there might have been cause to go to a video review and both times after a few seconds they were rejected by the VAR. If it is used for a third of all the World Cup games I will be very surprised.
If we had VAR, we would be looking forward to a Play -Off final match next Sunday IMO. 100% sending off and 100% penalty!!!
I question whether the penalty would have happened though had Morris been sent off
Shrewsbury would have tightened right up at the back even more than they had done and we've proven countless times that we cant break teams down when they do that
If we had VAR, we would be looking forward to a Play -Off final match next Sunday IMO. 100% sending off and 100% penalty!!!
I question whether the penalty would have happened though had Morris been sent off
Shrewsbury would have tightened right up at the back even more than they had done and we've proven countless times that we cant break teams down when they do that
True, but they would have been forced to temper their dirty tactics straight away or risk losing more players - the ref set the tone pretty early on with the non red card and they knew they could push the envelope with impunity, which caused us to lose out to some cynical and dirty fouls when in very promising positions particularly in the first half.
If we had VAR, we would be looking forward to a Play -Off final match next Sunday IMO. 100% sending off and 100% penalty!!!
I question whether the penalty would have happened though had Morris been sent off
Shrewsbury would have tightened right up at the back even more than they had done and we've proven countless times that we cant break teams down when they do that
True, but they would have been forced to temper their dirty tactics straight away or risk losing more players - the ref set the tone pretty early on with the non red card and they knew they could push the envelope with impunity, which caused us to lose out to some cynical and dirty fouls when in very promising positions particularly in the first half.
Think the real question surrounding Morris... Should he have gone in the 1st Leg?
Werent there about three nasty challenges from him at the Valley - Had that happened then we may have even won that first game (I doubt we'd have conceded in the 80th min) which would have made the second leg so different as Morris would have been banned
I think it would benefit from the commentary not mentioning it every tackle. Just say at the start of the game that it's in use. No need to keep mentioning it, it gives the impression it's a massive part of every decision
Its working well in the WC despite all the negativity.
To be fair, my negativity has been about the ramifications of just ONE wrong decision, or much more likely a game changing action NOT being checked or referred to the ref when it should have. It could open a massive can of worms.
We already have a marginal French penalty that was given but then no consistency with it as other challenges with similar or more contact not given, the argentina one not referred (or the ref choosing not to check whichever it is) as an example.
We have also seen a Costa Rica player raise his hands to a Serbian player near the end of their game that was missed as well (he threw a slap and as soon as you raise your hands to another player off the ball its a red no questions asked)
Add to all of that you have refs not making calls because they are relying on VAR to do the job for them which could result in an attack from the other team ending in a goal being disallowed as the play is brought back (that is a real danger)
You then have linesmen being told NOT to raise their flag on marginal calls which as well as my previous point means supporters are left in limbo and sanitising what could and should be a celebratory euphoric moment with a minute of waiting around after a goal to see if they are allowed to celebrate.
Its working well in the WC despite all the negativity.
Great do away with the refs then...save money.
Yeah, let's have no officials on the pitch. Doh.
VAR having been set up and administered properly in this World Cup has been superb and has corrected a number of extremely tough decisions, without any significant delay. Bloody marvellous and should have happened a long time ago.
Comments
In other words, the picture in isolation tells us nothing.
Take your point though. TBF to the lino, on second look it does appear he is moving - I imagine the defensive line stepped forward and that is probably why he is behind them instead of in line with them.
On the other hand if he can't keep up with the defenders positioning when the ball is static it doesn't bode well for him in general play does it!
Anyway not the point of the thread - although one wonders if the lino didn't flag because he knew he had VAR back up to bail him out- which to me is one of the big concerns with VAR.
One aspect of that session was that both pundits were put through a test whereby defenders ran out from goal whilst attackers ran towards the goal. The pundits then had to determine whether it was or wasnt offside when the ball was played. Neither pundit did particularly well and both were enlightened as to how difficult the job is
Bayern Munich are losing 2-1 in added time. They're throwing everyone forward and Javi Martinez is fouled in the box.
Referee misses it and awards the corner. As per VAR protocol, he gets a bloke in his ear telling him to go over to the video replay to review his own decision. So he does.
Clear contact from the defender with no touch on the ball. It's a definite penalty.
Referee refuses to overrule his own decision and stays with his initial decision of a corner.
Bayern eventually lose the match 3-1 after Frankfurt walk the ball into an empty net at the other end.
Incident below.
https://streamja.com/vEdk
Is it any contact at all in the box = pen? or should it not be if that contact impedes or trips a player?
That touch to the bottom of the foot was no more conspicuous to all kinds of incidents in the box where players are in contact with each other without touching the ball - it took me 3 or 4 re-watches to be certain there even was contact at all! But as I said you can see Martinez' foot does VERY slightly move as the defender basically air-swipes towards it. Think it's arguable that level of contact should have been enough to bring him down or impede his play though (I guarantee it wouldn't have been enough if he was in the middle of the 6 yard box with a gaping net in front of him - that standing leg would have stayed firmly planted on the ground)
I've seen them given for less but Martinez was obviously looking for any contact at all and he was going to go down like a ton of bricks and that's probably how the ref has interpreted it - I think I might have given it in the end based on the footage and 10 or so re-watches, but I can sympathise with why it wasn't.
I agree with @Manicmania that Martinez is clearly looking for the pen. I think the contact was minimal and whatever he was doing with his right leg would've helped the ref to decide against giving it. It's quite possible that if he'd gone down naturally then the ref might have given it. But not with those theatrics, he's barely touched on his left foot yet his right leg goes flying.
Watching a game and not know if you actually should celebrate a goal, as they might have to check a few things.
During an A-League game, something slightly dodgy happens. Game continues, but you have a flashing VAR icon in the top of the screen. They're checking it. It then either turns green (game continues) or red and ref stops play.
We've lived with the errors from refs, since this game was invented.
This has always been part of football, created talking points and made this game so special!
And as someone else has highlighted - linesman might not want to flag for offside. If the player was offside, VAR will sort it out anyway for him, where if he (incorrectly) flags for offside, VAR can do nothing to correct the mistake.
Leave the fuck alone.
Shrewsbury would have tightened right up at the back even more than they had done and we've proven countless times that we cant break teams down when they do that
Werent there about three nasty challenges from him at the Valley - Had that happened then we may have even won that first game (I doubt we'd have conceded in the 80th min) which would have made the second leg so different as Morris would have been banned
Just say at the start of the game that it's in use. No need to keep mentioning it, it gives the impression it's a massive part of every decision
We already have a marginal French penalty that was given but then no consistency with it as other challenges with similar or more contact not given, the argentina one not referred (or the ref choosing not to check whichever it is) as an example.
We have also seen a Costa Rica player raise his hands to a Serbian player near the end of their game that was missed as well (he threw a slap and as soon as you raise your hands to another player off the ball its a red no questions asked)
Add to all of that you have refs not making calls because they are relying on VAR to do the job for them which could result in an attack from the other team ending in a goal being disallowed as the play is brought back (that is a real danger)
You then have linesmen being told NOT to raise their flag on marginal calls which as well as my previous point means supporters are left in limbo and sanitising what could and should be a celebratory euphoric moment with a minute of waiting around after a goal to see if they are allowed to celebrate.
Other than all that i'm all for it lol
VAR having been set up and administered properly in this World Cup has been superb and has corrected a number of extremely tough decisions, without any significant delay. Bloody marvellous and should have happened a long time ago.