My wife is Jewish and and she is very critical of many of Israel's actions, especially towards the Palestinians. Clearly it is possible to criticise the state of Israel without being anti-Semitic. Zionism is the creation of Israel not its expansion, and at various points there was a possibility of a state of Israel existing in other places, including Uganda.
Johnson defenders: it’s not anti Islam cos look at all these Muslims that say a burka isn’t required
Labour anti semitism defenders: it’s not anti Semitic to say you’re anti zionist, look at all these Jews that say Zionism isn’t a requirement for their faith
That is badly thought out on your behalf.
You have said on here that Jewish does not equal Zionist or indeed Israel and have pressed me and others not to make that comparison (which I never have).
Whether you agree with it or not Corbyn has been criticising the actions of Israel and defending the plight of Palestinians (and I accept that that contains numerous nuances). Johnson on the other hand has not been criticising the actions of Islam and neither has he been defending anybodies plight.
Although I guess you could argue that the target of his attack may also be the group of people he is trying to defend (Muslim women).
saying you're "anti zionist" is imo saying youre anti semitic. What does it mean? That you think the state of israel shouldnt exist? Why? Surely you should support the left wing parties in israel that have always encouraged open dialogue with the palestinians. Are you also anti hamas that also blast bombs at israel? Sure the israeli government has done more than the fair share of crimes, but to wittle it down to "we should just get rid of the state of israel" is incredibly ignorant of a complex situation and like letting off a nuclear bomb to open a ketchup bottle.
Be careful mate, if you criticise Labour too much this thread will get sunk.
Stick to bashing the Tories, that's the trick to a good political debate on here.
But you can be accused of being anti-zionist and believe the state of Israel has a right to exist. That is if you criticise Isreali expansion for example. Who decides? Some people have a more liberal definition than you and some a much harder one! There are many jews that are critical of Isreal - is it not anti-semitic to consider these people as not important Jews?
It is a difficult point that you are not allowed to criticise Israel unless you also criticise the Palestinians in the same breath. There are wrongs and rights on all sides and subtleties, but you are not allowed to make your mind up on something that is ultimately anti Israeli government expansion, when you weigh everything up, even if you have never believed Israel shouldn't exist. Who writes the rules? And I know you haven't said that, but people are saying it.
well, surely find out what a zionist is and then whatever that is, the anti zionist is "anti". Lets take a look;
a supporter of Zionism; a person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. "the artist's parents were committed Zionists"
So an anti zionist is against the development and protection of a jewish nation that is now in israel? Sounds pretty anti semitic to me, imagine being anti african nation or arab nation - it would be racist. I'm not saying dont criticise the government of israel, they've done more crimes than many. But saying you're an anti zionist is basically saying you're an anti semite.
I have a rich jewish heritage and i'm critical of israel. But saying that "some jews find it okay" when people are complaining about anti semitic behaviour is like going "hey my friend is black and he said its okay so it cant be racist" - which as we both know is bullshit.
I agree with you - but my point is many don't. People who have acknowledged Israel's right to exist on record have been accused of being anti-zionist and therefore anti-semitic for being critical of Israels expansion policies. You have made a logical conclusion, in my opinion, of what anti-zionism is, but you are naive if you think that is the accepted conclusion. The waters are very cloudy! There are many Jews who whilst they are Zionist, don't connflate anti- Zionism with anti-semitism. There are many that do. I think we should ignore all the Jews that have a view opposite to mine! That would be consistent with many people's attitude on the subject! I can say they are not proper Jews or not the right type of Jews!
I think FGM is something we should all speak out against - and we should question the lack of prosecutions!
I agree and I also think that people walking round in a civilised society with their faces completely covered, is also something we should speak out about
Chip firmly on shoulder - can't you see it? - Who has told grid girls they can't wear what they wear or has banned them? Open your mind a little. The grid girls removal was a decision of the F1 board. I'm a F1 fan and wasn't pressing for it!
And people making insulting insensitive remarks that make minorities feel uncomfortable or threatened too - can we agree on that?
If people are offended by a few words about item of clothing, we're heading to WW3 sooner than thought
referring to post boxes and bank robbers! Are you honestly being serious. I actually oppose the Burka, but have non chip on my shoulder reasons for it! Everything is made up with people like you. The grid girls were not removed under pressure - the F1 board felt they wanted the sport to be about the racing, they can change it back and there won't be protests. Some agreed with them, some didn't why try to make it into something it isn't! If the F1 board decided it was sexist they have every right to, as they have every right to think they promote the sport!
Chip firmly on shoulder - can't you see it? - Who has told grid girls they can't wear what they wear or has banned them? Open your mind a little. The grid girls removal was a decision of the F1 board. I'm a F1 fan and wasn't pressing for it!
Nothing at all to do with opening minds, the post is obviously aimed at the people who were vocal and in favour of getting rid of grid girls, but are now defending the right to wear the burqa, of which there were many.
There isn't any point arguing - you think I am a raging liberal, I think you are narrow minded- I must wind you up and you wind me up for our different reasons - so it should be easy enough to avoid commenting on each others views on a football forum. We can agree with what we agree on, re the owner of the club.
There isn't any point arguing - you think I am a raging liberal, I think you are narrow minded- I must wind you up and you wind me up for our different reasons - so it should be easy enough to avoid commenting on each others views on a football forum. We can agree with what we agree on, re the owner of the club.
I don't think you're anything and not too sure why you think I'm narrow minded. But anyway - long live RD eh
Johnson defenders: it’s not anti Islam cos look at all these Muslims that say a burka isn’t required
Labour anti semitism defenders: it’s not anti Semitic to say you’re anti zionist, look at all these Jews that say Zionism isn’t a requirement for their faith
That is badly thought out on your behalf.
You have said on here that Jewish does not equal Zionist or indeed Israel and have pressed me and others not to make that comparison (which I never have).
Whether you agree with it or not Corbyn has been criticising the actions of Israel and defending the plight of Palestinians (and I accept that that contains numerous nuances). Johnson on the other hand has not been criticising the actions of Islam and neither has he been defending anybodies plight.
Although I guess you could argue that the target of his attack may also be the group of people he is trying to defend (Muslim women).
saying you're "anti zionist" is imo saying youre anti semitic. What does it mean? That you think the state of israel shouldnt exist? Why? Surely you should support the left wing parties in israel that have always encouraged open dialogue with the palestinians. Are you also anti hamas that also blast bombs at israel? Sure the israeli government has done more than the fair share of crimes, but to wittle it down to "we should just get rid of the state of israel" is incredibly ignorant of a complex situation and like letting off a nuclear bomb to open a ketchup bottle.
WTF. How does any of what you say, in any way, respond to what I have written?
I am anti anybody killing anybody else.
I oppose the current govt. of Israel, I oppose Hamas.
Do I support the right of Israel to exist? Yes of course.
Zionism was about the re-creation of a Jewish homeland in historic territories it wasn't about growing borders once established.
I don't understand your logic, you have said (rightly imo) many times that Israel is not all Jewish people. But here you are saying that people who are anti-Zionist are anti-Semites. Yet as we know many Jews are actually not Zionists and many more are critical of the current Israeli govt.
You should read www.haaretz.com/ for a more balanced view. And they are often rightly critical of Corbyn and Netenyahu and Trump.
Johnson defenders: it’s not anti Islam cos look at all these Muslims that say a burka isn’t required
Labour anti semitism defenders: it’s not anti Semitic to say you’re anti zionist, look at all these Jews that say Zionism isn’t a requirement for their faith
That is badly thought out on your behalf.
You have said on here that Jewish does not equal Zionist or indeed Israel and have pressed me and others not to make that comparison (which I never have).
Whether you agree with it or not Corbyn has been criticising the actions of Israel and defending the plight of Palestinians (and I accept that that contains numerous nuances). Johnson on the other hand has not been criticising the actions of Islam and neither has he been defending anybodies plight.
Although I guess you could argue that the target of his attack may also be the group of people he is trying to defend (Muslim women).
saying you're "anti zionist" is imo saying youre anti semitic. What does it mean? That you think the state of israel shouldnt exist? Why? Surely you should support the left wing parties in israel that have always encouraged open dialogue with the palestinians. Are you also anti hamas that also blast bombs at israel? Sure the israeli government has done more than the fair share of crimes, but to wittle it down to "we should just get rid of the state of israel" is incredibly ignorant of a complex situation and like letting off a nuclear bomb to open a ketchup bottle.
WTF. How does any of what you say, in any way, respond to what I have written?
I am anti anybody killing anybody else.
I oppose the current govt. of Israel, I oppose Hamas.
Do I support the right of Israel to exist? Yes of course.
Zionism was about the re-creation of a Jewish homeland in historic territories it wasn't about growing borders once established.
I don't understand your logic, you have said (rightly imo) many times that Israel is not all Jewish people. But here you are saying that people who are anti-Zionist are anti-Semites. Yet as we know many Jews are actually not Zionists and many more are critical of the current Israeli govt.
You should read www.haaretz.com/ for a more balanced view. And they are often rightly critical of Corbyn and Netenyahu and Trump.
What is Zionism? By dictionary definition if you’re an anti zionist you are anti whatever Zionism is. Which according to a dictionary is the formation and security of Israel. Why would you be against that? The only reason I can think is that you don’t like Jews.
I’m not saying you’re an anti semite. I’m saying people don’t understand that when they say they’re an anti-zionist it’s essentially saying they want Israel to be obliterated.
But you can be accused of being anti-zionist and believe the state of Israel has a right to exist. That is if you criticise Isreali expansion for example. Who decides? Some people have a more liberal definition than you and some a much harder one! There are many jews that are critical of Isreal - is it not anti-semitic to consider these people as not important Jews?
It is a difficult point that you are not allowed to criticise Israel unless you also criticise the Palestinians in the same breath. There are wrongs and rights on all sides and subtleties, but you are not allowed to make your mind up on something that is ultimately anti Israeli government expansion, when you weigh everything up, even if you have never believed Israel shouldn't exist. Who writes the rules? And I know you haven't said that, but people are saying it.
well, surely find out what a zionist is and then whatever that is, the anti zionist is "anti". Lets take a look;
a supporter of Zionism; a person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. "the artist's parents were committed Zionists"
So an anti zionist is against the development and protection of a jewish nation that is now in israel? Sounds pretty anti semitic to me, imagine being anti african nation or arab nation - it would be racist. I'm not saying dont criticise the government of israel, they've done more crimes than many. But saying you're an anti zionist is basically saying you're an anti semite.
I have a rich jewish heritage and i'm critical of israel. But saying that "some jews find it okay" when people are complaining about anti semitic behaviour is like going "hey my friend is black and he said its okay so it cant be racist" - which as we both know is bullshit.
What should a person who identifies themselves as against prevailing Isreali policy but couldn't give a shiny about anyone's race call themself?
Really you are arguing samantics. The definition of anti-Zionism is very broad and more than you suggested. You are talking about it in philosophical terms and Muttley in political.
When a lot of those crimes you mention have been committed with the justification of the development or protection of Israel like Gaza or the illegal settlements it should be easy to understand why there is such opposition it.
If anything your anger should be at the successive Israeli governments who have muddied the water about what is legitimate development and protection of the state and what is a war crime.
Comments
Stick to bashing the Tories, that's the trick to a good political debate on here.
Liberals - Hypocrisy 101.
Grid girls - You can’t wear that, how dare you, ban them immediately, I’m offended.
The Burka - How dare you tell women what they can and can’t wear.
I am anti anybody killing anybody else.
I oppose the current govt. of Israel, I oppose Hamas.
Do I support the right of Israel to exist? Yes of course.
Zionism was about the re-creation of a Jewish homeland in historic territories it wasn't about growing borders once established.
I don't understand your logic, you have said (rightly imo) many times that Israel is not all Jewish people. But here you are saying that people who are anti-Zionist are anti-Semites. Yet as we know many Jews are actually not Zionists and many more are critical of the current Israeli govt.
You should read www.haaretz.com/ for a more balanced view. And they are often rightly critical of Corbyn and Netenyahu and Trump.
I’m not saying you’re an anti semite. I’m saying people don’t understand that when they say they’re an anti-zionist it’s essentially saying they want Israel to be obliterated.
Really you are arguing samantics. The definition of anti-Zionism is very broad and more than you suggested. You are talking about it in philosophical terms and Muttley in political.
When a lot of those crimes you mention have been committed with the justification of the development or protection of Israel like Gaza or the illegal settlements it should be easy to understand why there is such opposition it.
If anything your anger should be at the successive Israeli governments who have muddied the water about what is legitimate development and protection of the state and what is a war crime.