Don't really get all the "he'll sell Konsa arguments" as surely that will reduce the overall value of the club to any buyer who are buying a going concern including the "playing assets". Plus - he isn't funding the ongoing losses out of his own pocket - his company Staprix are effectively funding the losses by loaning the deficit to the club at 3% interest. It's this that's making the club so expensive as he tries to recover the debt he's built up through years of mis-management.
I think it should also be noted that the huge goodwill to new owners would not be there if RD still owned The Valley and SL training ground and charged the new owners rent. That would be worse than RD staying , he has to be completely gone.
I hope I'm wrong but this could be one of the reasons the sale has taken so long.
I've said this before but talk of RD holding on to the club to see if we are promoted is a disaster for us.
Every normally run club will be planning for next season and going as far as talking to agents about moves the day this window closes to be prepared for next season. If the takeover doesn't happen until june/July or even May then we are way behind everyone else. The new owners will have to make a decision over Robbo if they replace him tbat will put us further behind everyone else.
Once again we so go into a season unprepared, without a full squad and behind every other club due to Rolands cocking about. Even after he has left.
The urgency I feel isn't for this season but for next.
Something seems to have happened. Robinson's comments were alluding to a fire sale but Murray's didn't back this and the addition of a couple of players this week suggests we might be having a bit of a go at promotion. What has changed? Maybe the sale is much closer - I certainly hope so.
Would have thought it was just the freed up wages from Holmes that have been made available. I'd be very surprised if we saw anymore incomings without others leaving - unless the Best wages are made available.
Don't really get all the "he'll sell Konsa arguments" as surely that will reduce the overall value of the club to any buyer who are buying a going concern including the "playing assets". Plus - he isn't funding the ongoing losses out of his own pocket - his company Staprix are effectively funding the losses by loaning the deficit to the club at 3% interest. It's this that's making the club so expensive as he tries to recover the debt he's built up through years of mis-management.
It in fact increases the value because the transfer fee is bigger than the value of Konsa in the books. It provides cash that avoids Staprix having to make a loan to cover operating costs.
I appreciate the effort and time, both from the CAST representatives and Richard too, but I must lean towards agreeing with @roseandcrown
Although it's an interesting read none the less, and contains a couple of interesting insights, I struggle to believe that Richard has as much say with Roland as he believes, and all it really does is paint a picture of a club in limbo until a sale goes ahead.. something we already knew.
Rather than negotiate a fee for Konsa when buyers know you are selling, surely, he is worth more money in a valuation as an asset. If Murray is acting as a sort of CEO at this time, he has to be in regular contact with Duchatelet and I would be surprised if he didn't have a decent idea what is going on.
Don't really get all the "he'll sell Konsa arguments" as surely that will reduce the overall value of the club to any buyer who are buying a going concern including the "playing assets". Plus - he isn't funding the ongoing losses out of his own pocket - his company Staprix are effectively funding the losses by loaning the deficit to the club at 3% interest. It's this that's making the club so expensive as he tries to recover the debt he's built up through years of mis-management.
Even if Konsa goes for £4m on deadline day yes you knock off £4m of the valuation of the club, I'm not sure how it works but let's say for arguments sake it does, it just means it's £4m less for RD to put into the club from anywhere from within his empire.
I could be entirely wrong but I just think RD will fund the rest of the season without dipping into any of his own resources so the debt and interest doesn't rise any further to make it harder for him to get the price than he already wants.
Don't really get all the "he'll sell Konsa arguments" as surely that will reduce the overall value of the club to any buyer who are buying a going concern including the "playing assets". Plus - he isn't funding the ongoing losses out of his own pocket - his company Staprix are effectively funding the losses by loaning the deficit to the club at 3% interest. It's this that's making the club so expensive as he tries to recover the debt he's built up through years of mis-management.
Even if Konsa goes for £4m on deadline day yes you knock off £4m of the valuation of the club, I'm not sure how it works but let's say for arguments sake it does, it just means it's £4m less for RD to put into the club from anywhere from within his empire.
I could be entirely wrong but I just think RD will fund the rest of the season without dipping into any of his own resources so the debt and interest doesn't rise any further to make it harder for him to get the price than he already wants.
If you sell a home grown player for £4m, or a player you got on a free for £4m, you increase the assets by £4m cash. Players are not counted as an asset, it's the registration that is an asset so the cost of acquiring a player's registration is put in the books simply because it has an accounting value i.e an asset that can be valued. If there was no cost of acquiring a player's registration i.e a home grown player, there is no asset to be valued. Where a registration fee is put in the books, that value is written down every year over their contract period. So the clubs assets fall all the time they are not not selling home grown players and other players for more than they bought them for.
Just as (in accounting terms) you can't put an economic value on the company secretary you can't (in accounting terms) put an economic value on a player. A home grown player has the same asset value as the ticket office supervisor as far as the club's assets are concerned.
RD is not actually asset stripping in accounting terms because he is just replacing debt with cash generated out of nothing - the sale of a home grown player. This does not affect asset value, cash and debt are both assets. RD is gaining by having cash instead of debt because the debt servicing costs are reduced so giving a higher net future revenue for a purchaser so a higher potential price.
@Dippenhall For all that, if any Konsa cash is then taken out to reduce the debt the club owes him, and then he sells without having to reduce his price by the amount he sold Konsa for, he will be smiling and stroking his white cat, right? This seems to be how it went at Standard, except that SL was profitable so he also helped himself to a dividend before selling, leaving the club short of cash.
@Dippenhall For all that, if any Konsa cash is then taken out to reduce the debt the club owes him, and then he sells without having to reduce his price by the amount he sold Konsa for, he will be smiling and stroking his white cat, right? This seems to be how it went at Standard, except that SL was profitable so he also helped himself to a dividend before selling, leaving the club short of cash.
I just don't know how it's allowed and how the football authorities just stand by and do absolutely nothing about it and won't even comment on it.
@Dippenhall For all that, if any Konsa cash is then taken out to reduce the debt the club owes him, and then he sells without having to reduce his price by the amount he sold Konsa for, he will be smiling and stroking his white cat, right? This seems to be how it went at Standard, except that SL was profitable so he also helped himself to a dividend before selling, leaving the club short of cash.
If he gets an increase in the asset value of the club by selling Konsa the value of the club goes up. If he uses the cash to reduce the debt by £4 the price of the club goes up. However, he can't reduce the debt by £4m if he takes it out and then later has to inject £6m to cover operating expenses. If he takes out £4m and doesn't put it back the company is insolvent.
As far as Staprix is concerned it receives £4m and has reduced it's investments and has replaced it with cash, nothing changes the value of Staprix, in fact it is reduced because the value of a 3% interest stream on a £4 loan is worth more than £4m sitting in cash. He just has the option of investing £4m in another project. What will happen is that Staprix will have to write off most of the debt, assuming no one is actually going to pay £50m to buy the club, so the more he can reduce the debt the less he loses. More like kicking the cat than sitting back and stroking it.
SL presumably had surplus cash to operating expenses so could pay a cash dividend, but we don't, so he can't do the same trick, unless he can sell players to cover more than the difference between operating costs and revenue. Would only make a small dent in the Staprix debt though, so still unlikely to stop kicking the cat.
The biggest gripe is not the issue of taking out cash but leaving it in the club and not using player sales money to buy a replacement. Whether it's £4m cash or a player registration that costs £4m, the value of the club is the same. The only reason for withholding player purchase is to minimise the level of indebtedness to Staprix because he knows he will be writing that off effectively.
Thanks for explaining the situation so clearly Dippenhall.
However regarding Konsa it could be less relevant. Hitc are reporting the Daily Mail 'live transfer feed' saying both Everton & Liverpool are unwilling to pay Charlton's asking price.
I am probably in a minority here, have been saying for weeks cafc are way over valuing him. Right now? CASH value - £1.5 million imho.
Really stuck my neck out this time! Sorry going off thread.
Don't really get all the "he'll sell Konsa arguments" as surely that will reduce the overall value of the club to any buyer who are buying a going concern including the "playing assets". Plus - he isn't funding the ongoing losses out of his own pocket - his company Staprix are effectively funding the losses by loaning the deficit to the club at 3% interest. It's this that's making the club so expensive as he tries to recover the debt he's built up through years of mis-management.
Is it possible that a figure might have been agreed for each players value (ie £4m for Konsa), but that allows RD to sell for more if he can? So if he sold Konsa for £8m, the 'club' (or the buyers of the club) gets four, and RD gets a bonus of 4.
[Edit: See @Dippenhall for a much better explanation!]
Would have thought it was just the freed up wages from Holmes that have been made available. I'd be very surprised if we saw anymore incomings without others leaving - unless the Best wages are made available.
I think we're still paying Best, as he was injured on duty.
Don't really get all the "he'll sell Konsa arguments" as surely that will reduce the overall value of the club to any buyer who are buying a going concern including the "playing assets". Plus - he isn't funding the ongoing losses out of his own pocket - his company Staprix are effectively funding the losses by loaning the deficit to the club at 3% interest. It's this that's making the club so expensive as he tries to recover the debt he's built up through years of mis-management.
Even if Konsa goes for £4m on deadline day yes you knock off £4m of the valuation of the club, I'm not sure how it works but let's say for arguments sake it does, it just means it's £4m less for RD to put into the club from anywhere from within his empire.
I could be entirely wrong but I just think RD will fund the rest of the season without dipping into any of his own resources so the debt and interest doesn't rise any further to make it harder for him to get the price than he already wants.
If you sell a home grown player for £4m, or a player you got on a free for £4m, you increase the assets by £4m cash. Players are not counted as an asset, it's the registration that is an asset so the cost of acquiring a player's registration is put in the books simply because it has an accounting value i.e an asset that can be valued. If there was no cost of acquiring a player's registration i.e a home grown player, there is no asset to be valued. Where a registration fee is put in the books, that value is written down every year over their contract period. So the clubs assets fall all the time they are not not selling home grown players and other players for more than they bought them for.
Just as (in accounting terms) you can't put an economic value on the company secretary you can't (in accounting terms) put an economic value on a player. A home grown player has the same asset value as the ticket office supervisor as far as the club's assets are concerned.
RD is not actually asset stripping in accounting terms because he is just replacing debt with cash generated out of nothing - the sale of a home grown player. This does not affect asset value, cash and debt are both assets. RD is gaining by having cash instead of debt because the debt servicing costs are reduced so giving a higher net future revenue for a purchaser so a higher potential price.
In reality the valuation of a football club bears little relation to the balance sheet accounting assets figure, as only purchased players can be treated as a capital asset. To take an extreme example, Harry Kane is worth nothing in the Spurs balance sheet, despite being worth £100m-£200m if sold to Real Madrid.
Is Spurs tomorrow sell him for £200k to us, their balance sheet assets will go up by £200k in cash, but the value of the club would crash by the market value of the player they've missed out on.
In terms of our future owners, if they are still hoping for promotion THIS SEASON, then sales of key players may impact their valuation of the club as cash is no use outside the window. In an extreme example, if RD sold 5 players in the 31st January and left the cash in the club (with no time to spend it) and we got relegated as a result, then the valuation of the club would definitely be lowered, even if the prices received were decent
Thanks for explaining the situation so clearly Dippenhall.
However regarding Konsa it could be less relevant. Hitc are reporting the Daily Mail 'live transfer feed' saying both Everton & Liverpool are unwilling to pay Charlton's asking price.
I am probably in a minority here, have been saying for weeks cafc are way over valuing him. Right now? CASH value - £1.5 million imho.
Really stuck my neck out this time! Sorry going off thread.
£1.5 mil for an England under 23! Is there a player in a premier league club squad that is worth as little as that?
According to someone on the 'dark side' who has just messaged saying the cub is sold and will be completed early Feb to an ex footballer and a Brit Tweeted by a Fred Davidson
According to someone on the 'dark side' who has just messaged saying the cub is sold and will be completed early Feb to an ex footballer and a Brit Tweeted by a Fred Davidson
I saw that but don't do twitter, can anyone check the account out @stonemuse / @Henry Irving ?
According to someone on the 'dark side' who has just messaged saying the cub is sold and will be completed early Feb to an ex footballer and a Brit Tweeted by a Fred Davidson
I saw that but don't do twitter, can anyone check the account out @stonemuse / @Henry Irving ?
According to someone on the 'dark side' who has just messaged saying the cub is sold and will be completed early Feb to an ex footballer and a Brit Tweeted by a Fred Davidson
I saw that but don't do twitter, can anyone check the account out @stonemuse / @Henry Irving ?
According to someone on the 'dark side' who has just messaged saying the cub is sold and will be completed early Feb to an ex footballer and a Brit Tweeted by a Fred Davidson
No offence but that literally makes no sense - you say ‘it’s sold’ then go to say ‘ it will be completed early Feb’.
It could be done for all intents and purposes @JBLOCK subject to the approval of the fit and proper person test by the EFL. When you mentioned McLeish as Scotland manager, I thought it was Mark McGee at Barnet who was in the Directors box with AM recently and in the frame for that?
According to someone on the 'dark side' who has just messaged saying the cub is sold and will be completed early Feb to an ex footballer and a Brit Tweeted by a Fred Davidson
No offence but that literally makes no sense - you say ‘it’s sold’ then go to say ‘ it will be completed early Feb’.
It’s either done or it isn’t.
Not really. A deal can be agreed, a deposit exchanged and a completion date set, which is what happened last time (albeit without the closure of the transfer window in between).
Thanks for explaining the situation so clearly Dippenhall.
However regarding Konsa it could be less relevant. Hitc are reporting the Daily Mail 'live transfer feed' saying both Everton & Liverpool are unwilling to pay Charlton's asking price.
I am probably in a minority here, have been saying for weeks cafc are way over valuing him. Right now? CASH value - £1.5 million imho.
Really stuck my neck out this time! Sorry going off thread.
£1.5 mil for an England under 23! Is there a player in a premier league club squad that is worth as little as that?
So how much do you think he will go for ?
Lett's be clear i am not talking the tabloid headline figure, excluding add on's, only the CASH paid.
Comments
Every normally run club will be planning for next season and going as far as talking to agents about moves the day this window closes to be prepared for next season. If the takeover doesn't happen until june/July or even May then we are way behind everyone else. The new owners will have to make a decision over Robbo if they replace him tbat will put us further behind everyone else.
Once again we so go into a season unprepared, without a full squad and behind every other club due to Rolands cocking about. Even after he has left.
The urgency I feel isn't for this season but for next.
Get out of OUR club.
Certainly not RD.
Murray?
I could be entirely wrong but I just think RD will fund the rest of the season without dipping into any of his own resources so the debt and interest doesn't rise any further to make it harder for him to get the price than he already wants.
Players are not counted as an asset, it's the registration that is an asset so the cost of acquiring a player's registration is put in the books simply because it has an accounting value i.e an asset that can be valued. If there was no cost of acquiring a player's registration i.e a home grown player, there is no asset to be valued. Where a registration fee is put in the books, that value is written down every year over their contract period. So the clubs assets fall all the time they are not not selling home grown players and other players for more than they bought them for.
Just as (in accounting terms) you can't put an economic value on the company secretary you can't (in accounting terms) put an economic value on a player. A home grown player has the same asset value as the ticket office supervisor as far as the club's assets are concerned.
RD is not actually asset stripping in accounting terms because he is just replacing debt with cash generated out of nothing - the sale of a home grown player. This does not affect asset value, cash and debt are both assets. RD is gaining by having cash instead of debt because the debt servicing costs are reduced so giving a higher net future revenue for a purchaser so a higher potential price.
For all that, if any Konsa cash is then taken out to reduce the debt the club owes him, and then he sells without having to reduce his price by the amount he sold Konsa for, he will be smiling and stroking his white cat, right? This seems to be how it went at Standard, except that SL was profitable so he also helped himself to a dividend before selling, leaving the club short of cash.
As far as Staprix is concerned it receives £4m and has reduced it's investments and has replaced it with cash, nothing changes the value of Staprix, in fact it is reduced because the value of a 3% interest stream on a £4 loan is worth more than £4m sitting in cash. He just has the option of investing £4m in another project. What will happen is that Staprix will have to write off most of the debt, assuming no one is actually going to pay £50m to buy the club, so the more he can reduce the debt the less he loses. More like kicking the cat than sitting back and stroking it.
SL presumably had surplus cash to operating expenses so could pay a cash dividend, but we don't, so he can't do the same trick, unless he can sell players to cover more than the difference between operating costs and revenue. Would only make a small dent in the Staprix debt though, so still unlikely to stop kicking the cat.
The biggest gripe is not the issue of taking out cash but leaving it in the club and not using player sales money to buy a replacement. Whether it's £4m cash or a player registration that costs £4m, the value of the club is the same. The only reason for withholding player purchase is to minimise the level of indebtedness to Staprix because he knows he will be writing that off effectively.
However regarding Konsa it could be less relevant. Hitc are reporting the Daily Mail 'live transfer feed' saying both Everton & Liverpool are unwilling to pay Charlton's asking price.
I am probably in a minority here, have been saying for weeks cafc are way over valuing him. Right now? CASH value - £1.5 million imho.
Really stuck my neck out this time! Sorry going off thread.
[Edit: See @Dippenhall for a much better explanation!]
Is Spurs tomorrow sell him for £200k to us, their balance sheet assets will go up by £200k in cash, but the value of the club would crash by the market value of the player they've missed out on.
In terms of our future owners, if they are still hoping for promotion THIS SEASON, then sales of key players may impact their valuation of the club as cash is no use outside the window. In an extreme example, if RD sold 5 players in the 31st January and left the cash in the club (with no time to spend it) and we got relegated as a result, then the valuation of the club would definitely be lowered, even if the prices received were decent
Going by his profile, I wouldn't believe a word :-)
It’s either done or it isn’t.
Mark McGee was also in the directors box, but not with them, as was Alex Neil the Preston manager, rumoured to be watching an Oxford player.
So how much do you think he will go for ?
Lett's be clear i am not talking the tabloid headline figure, excluding add on's, only the CASH paid.