This is the animal suffering that goes into your Christmas dinner
The Independent, Saturday 22nd December
Every day in the UK, 2.5m chickens are slaughtered for meat. Most never saw the light of day until they were driven to the slaughterhouse at the age of six weeks. By that stage, many of them are crippled, their young bones unable to support their distorted body weight. Geese have endured a similar hell.
Whatever your favourite meat, dairy or eggy meal is, you can now eat a vegan version of it. And given that you can now enjoy such food without causing suffering and death to animals, why would you not? Listen to your heart. Go vegan this Christmas.
Sorry to burst your bubble Muttley but ‘humane slaughter’ is purely a term used to salve the conscience of the consumer, to try and make it seem like something ‘nice’ happens to the animal between stepping off the transporter wagon and ending up on a plate slathered in gravy. There is no humane way to take the life of an animal that wants to live.
The counter argument to that though is the animal would not be alive in the first place if we did not eat it. They are bred to be slaughtered and eaten.
And I’m sure they’re very appreciative of being born into a life of horror, only to be slaughtered when they’re slightly older than babies. I’ve said before that I would rather see some animals die out than for them to be born into a life of hell.
But surely standing about in a field with a sudden end is a lot less horrific than living in the wild and facing a grisly end at the jaws of the next predator up the food chain.
Or be chewed up by a combine harvester collecting the ingredients for Linda McCartney sausages.
Or have their habitats destroyed to make way for plants that go into the 102 varieties of vegan milk out there.
Or have their rivers and homes poisoned by pesticide run off for growing vegetables.
Animal slaughter involves first order animal death but any product that involves second or third order animal death can happily claim to be vegan.
Bingo.
It’s not really bingo though. I can see that Fiiish was trying his best to make vegans look like hypocrites for whatever reason but if we look at his points closely then I can quite easily turn around and say ‘people in glass houses’. I don’t deny that there are deaths caused by harvesting of fields so that I can eat those crops and yes it saddens me but I don’t have the answer on solving that issue. If that makes me a hypocrite I’ll just have to wear it. As for habitat destruction I’ll merely laugh at that. Animal agriculture is by far a greater destroyer of habitat than anything else, be it deforestation to graze those animals or to grow crops to feed those animals. There’s more about in the Unilad docu I posted above. Pesticides are a horrible fact of life but that is not solely a vegan issue. If you eat broccoli with your steak for instance are you not contributing to that pollution and it’s effect on habitat? I’d love to see a world where everything grown was organic.
The fact is, being vegan isn’t about being perfect as it’s impossible to achieve that state. Veganism is about trying to cause the least amount of suffering and harm as viably possible and that’s what I try to adhere to. If I sometimes fail because of forces entirely beyond my control then I will just have to wear the hypocrite hat that some people would love for me to wear.
That wasn't really the point I was driving home though.
Firstly I will agree industrialised slaughter and the cruelty in the dairy/egg industry is totally unnecessary. I avoid supermarket produce where possible and make use of my local farm shop or know the source behind any animal produce. I'm not 100% perfect in this regard but I make a conscious effort.
It is more the grey areas that exist. There is no set code of ethics or humanity so for someone to get their high-horse and proclaim someone else as unethical or inhumane grates me. Especially since there are plenty of parts of a normal vegan diet that some may not consider 100% ethical.
I honestly do not care what someone chooses to put on or omit from their plate but do not for one second assume you are any better a person than me on the basis of your beliefs. As you said yourself: people in glass houses. I'm sure that posh tart who was calling a farmer and his customers psychopathic isn't entirely beyond reproach.
Just to add to your points when people say to me about killing insects for my veg they literally do the same and more. So I just don't understand how the argument works. It's a valid point and there needs to be a better way but as per it's someone's way of trying to cover their guilt
Kill the animal as quickly as possible. There are people around prepared to do that, and that’s fine with me, I’ll just do the buying and eating part. It’s like there’s people prepared to go down into the sewers to budge all the shit that clogs up. Would I enjoy my morning dump as much if I had to get down there and shift it, no, but as long as there are people that will, then I’ll keep enjoy doing it.
Ok I'm someone who likes a good analogy but this is bizarre mate. What is your point?
We as humans need a system in place for waste disposal. People are paid money to do this and it is something that needs to be done. Eating meat is a dietary choice and completely incomparable to enjoying having a dump in the morning
Just some food for thought and it's a bit far out but based on some of the thread titles on here and posts I'll say it puts me somewhere in the middle.
All hypothetical of course and extreme but it's just to get people on a level of understanding of how I look at things.
We as humans have the power to end animal cruelty, you stop buying meat eventually butchers and slaughter houses go out of business. We stand up against animal abusers as a society and shame it more and it's less likely to occur etc. In a nutshell we have the power to stop animals suffering. We don't do it because we are programmed from birth to think that it's ok to make an animal suffer just to cater to our taste buds. People are so insensitive to it they will see a pig being tortured and make snarky comments such as 'sounds like bacon haha' or whatever other witty bacon comment they can think of. Yet they see a dog get abused and they are up in arms. Genuinely what is the difference? Pigs have been proven to be as smart as small children and are sentient beings so why are people so insensitive towards their deaths but they see a dog mmistreated and have a good old moan. Obviously it's because of advertisement and subtle brainwashing but that's not the point. Why do we as humans think that a dog's lives is more important than let's say a pig or cow. Which brings me to my next bit.
In life we have had awful events happen, slavery, Hitler/ genocides etc. This is where I'm gonna go far out but it's just a hypothetical situation to work with human emotions. What if one day we did make contact with another life form and we shared this planet with them. It isn't so bizarre when you think of all the possibilities and maybe not our lifetimes but another it could happen. What if they just decided because they were a stronger group of people and acquired a taste for us decided to start slaughtering us. Just because they could. Your families, friends everyone you know. You get the picture. Basically you would be distraught and claim it is unfair but it's really no different from what we do now. Again it's far out, it more than likely will never happen but it's just to get you thinking about why you think your life is so much more significant than another beings.
Call me crazy but I do think a long way from now we will be looked back on for this and be frowned upon. When it is all said and done we literally cause animals to suffer everyday because we like the taste of them.
Again I know I've literally mentioned aliens and it's bonkers but I'm just trying to get you thinking a bit more about it
Kill the animal as quickly as possible. There are people around prepared to do that, and that’s fine with me, I’ll just do the buying and eating part. It’s like there’s people prepared to go down into the sewers to budge all the shit that clogs up. Would I enjoy my morning dump as much if I had to get down there and shift it, no, but as long as there are people that will, then I’ll keep enjoy doing it.
Ok I'm someone who likes a good analogy but this is bizarre mate. What is your point?
We as humans need a system in place for waste disposal. People are paid money to do this and it is something that needs to be done. Eating meat is a dietary choice and completely incomparable to enjoying having a dump in the morning
It doesn't seem at all bizarre to me. He's just saying that if someone else is prepared to do the dirty work, he's prepared to reap the benefits. I fully understand why you might not agree with his stance, but it really isn't rocket science understanding it.
you stop buying meat eventually butchers houses go out of business.
That's sounds fantastic let's put generations old family run businesses out of business, just because you've been re-programmed to believe eating meat is wrong...
See this debate goes both ways and always will... I'm not saying I'd never be a vegan, but at this point in life, I like 93% of the UK population right now don't believe total veganism is a positive move.
I certainly think it'd be fantastic to reduce the amount of meat available to the population and would even personally entertain a vegan day one or two days a week.
But forcing it onto those like myself and wishing family run businesses (like the majority of butcher shops) out of business certainly doesn't help your cause.
Hide the thread? Why? Is there not a reasonable case for the issues to be publicised, so that readers can receive information and, perhaps, gain an understanding of things?
Bear-baiting...putting children up chimneys...slavery...apartheid...votes for men only... These practices were opposed.
I'm forcing nothing on you. What I am doing is advocating change to the ways - often appalling ways - in which society treats animals, whether that be for entertainment, clothing, or food.
you stop buying meat eventually butchers houses go out of business.
That's sounds fantastic let's put generations old family run businesses out of business, just because you've been re-programmed to believe eating meat is wrong...
See this debate goes both ways and always will... I'm not saying I'd never be a vegan, but at this point in life, I like 93% of the UK population right now don't believe total veganism is a positive move.
I certainly think it'd be fantastic to reduce the amount of meat available to the population and would even personally entertain a vegan day one or two days a week.
But forcing it onto those like myself and wishing family run businesses (like the majority of butcher shops) out of business certainly doesn't help your cause.
I'm sure people said the same thing when people wanted to put a stop to the slave trade.
Kill the animal as quickly as possible. There are people around prepared to do that, and that’s fine with me, I’ll just do the buying and eating part. It’s like there’s people prepared to go down into the sewers to budge all the shit that clogs up. Would I enjoy my morning dump as much if I had to get down there and shift it, no, but as long as there are people that will, then I’ll keep enjoy doing it.
Ok I'm someone who likes a good analogy but this is bizarre mate. What is your point?
We as humans need a system in place for waste disposal. People are paid money to do this and it is something that needs to be done. Eating meat is a dietary choice and completely incomparable to enjoying having a dump in the morning
It doesn't seem at all bizarre to me. He's just saying that if someone else is prepared to do the dirty work, he's prepared to reap the benefits. I fully understand why you might not agree with his stance, but it really isn't rocket science understanding it.
I can assure you, I understand the post I read, that doesn't change that it's more or less nonsense in my eyes.
Waste disposal is necessary for the planet, a meal choice isn't. If that was the aim of the post.
But if it was just a general throw away comment to try and justify eating meat, it's like saying 'yeah I buy my clobber off someone who robs people locally, he is prepared to do it but as long as I don't get my hands dirty no harm done'
The buyer is still the problem ultimately and it doesn't mean they aren't the problem
you stop buying meat eventually butchers houses go out of business.
That's sounds fantastic let's put generations old family run businesses out of business, just because you've been re-programmed to believe eating meat is wrong...
See this debate goes both ways and always will... I'm not saying I'd never be a vegan, but at this point in life, I like 93% of the UK population right now don't believe total veganism is a positive move.
I certainly think it'd be fantastic to reduce the amount of meat available to the population and would even personally entertain a vegan day one or two days a week.
But forcing it onto those like myself and wishing family run businesses (like the majority of butcher shops) out of business certainly doesn't help your cause.
I'm sure people said the same thing when people wanted to put a stop to the slave trade.
you stop buying meat eventually butchers houses go out of business.
That's sounds fantastic let's put generations old family run businesses out of business, just because you've been re-programmed to believe eating meat is wrong...
See this debate goes both ways and always will... I'm not saying I'd never be a vegan, but at this point in life, I like 93% of the UK population right now don't believe total veganism is a positive move.
I certainly think it'd be fantastic to reduce the amount of meat available to the population and would even personally entertain a vegan day one or two days a week.
But forcing it onto those like myself and wishing family run businesses (like the majority of butcher shops) out of business certainly doesn't help your cause.
I'm sure people said the same thing when people wanted to put a stop to the slave trade.
Can’t see any reason at all why this thread should be hidden away in a corner on the forum. On the whole it hasn’t degenerated to some of the political threads darker moments and although it has been blighted by some, imo, juvenile and unimaginative comments I feel it’s been a positive experience in offering food for thought (if you pardon the pun).
Whether anyone likes it or not their is evidence to show that there is a growing interest in veganism and more people are moving away from a ‘traditional’ diet of meat and dairy. As long as people continue to play nicely and the discussion is intelligently challenging then it should remain where it is.
you stop buying meat eventually butchers houses go out of business.
That's sounds fantastic let's put generations old family run businesses out of business, just because you've been re-programmed to believe eating meat is wrong...
See this debate goes both ways and always will... I'm not saying I'd never be a vegan, but at this point in life, I like 93% of the UK population right now don't believe total veganism is a positive move.
I certainly think it'd be fantastic to reduce the amount of meat available to the population and would even personally entertain a vegan day one or two days a week.
But forcing it onto those like myself and wishing family run businesses (like the majority of butcher shops) out of business certainly doesn't help your cause.
I'm sure people said the same thing when people wanted to put a stop to the slave trade.
you stop buying meat eventually butchers houses go out of business.
That's sounds fantastic let's put generations old family run businesses out of business, just because you've been re-programmed to believe eating meat is wrong...
See this debate goes both ways and always will... I'm not saying I'd never be a vegan, but at this point in life, I like 93% of the UK population right now don't believe total veganism is a positive move.
I certainly think it'd be fantastic to reduce the amount of meat available to the population and would even personally entertain a vegan day one or two days a week.
But forcing it onto those like myself and wishing family run businesses (like the majority of butcher shops) out of business certainly doesn't help your cause.
I'm sure people said the same thing when people wanted to put a stop to the slave trade.
Fucks sake. Now THAT is offensive.
Offensive to who?
Everyone. You're saying someone else used a bad analogy, then to back it up introduce the slave trade.
you stop buying meat eventually butchers houses go out of business.
That's sounds fantastic let's put generations old family run businesses out of business, just because you've been re-programmed to believe eating meat is wrong...
See this debate goes both ways and always will... I'm not saying I'd never be a vegan, but at this point in life, I like 93% of the UK population right now don't believe total veganism is a positive move.
I certainly think it'd be fantastic to reduce the amount of meat available to the population and would even personally entertain a vegan day one or two days a week.
But forcing it onto those like myself and wishing family run businesses (like the majority of butcher shops) out of business certainly doesn't help your cause.
I'm sure people said the same thing when people wanted to put a stop to the slave trade.
Fucks sake. Now THAT is offensive.
Offensive to who?
Everyone. You're saying someone else used a bad analogy, then to back it up introduce the slave trade.
Because the other one made no sense. All it basically said was 'I know it's bad but I don't care' hardly great input. I am trying to say is history has shown people have thought something was right at the time but actually completely wrong. Back then I bet people had the same reactions that people have towards vegans now.
I mean if that's offensive to someone then I don't know what to say really. Get some broccoli down ya?
Kill the animal as quickly as possible. There are people around prepared to do that, and that’s fine with me, I’ll just do the buying and eating part. It’s like there’s people prepared to go down into the sewers to budge all the shit that clogs up. Would I enjoy my morning dump as much if I had to get down there and shift it, no, but as long as there are people that will, then I’ll keep enjoy doing it.
Ok I'm someone who likes a good analogy but this is bizarre mate. What is your point?
We as humans need a system in place for waste disposal. People are paid money to do this and it is something that needs to be done. Eating meat is a dietary choice and completely incomparable to enjoying having a dump in the morning
It doesn't seem at all bizarre to me. He's just saying that if someone else is prepared to do the dirty work, he's prepared to reap the benefits. I fully understand why you might not agree with his stance, but it really isn't rocket science understanding it.
I can assure you, I understand the post I read, that doesn't change that it's more or less nonsense in my eyes.
Waste disposal is necessary for the planet, a meal choice isn't. If that was the aim of the post.
But if it was just a general throw away comment to try and justify eating meat, it's like saying 'yeah I buy my clobber off someone who robs people locally, he is prepared to do it but as long as I don't get my hands dirty no harm done'
The buyer is still the problem ultimately and it doesn't mean they aren't the problem
The man gave you his honest reasoning as to why he eats meat. You deride this by saying it's nonsense, suggesting that his comment was 'throw away'. Who are you trying to convince of your opinion?
As someone who has considerable sympathy for your overall aims but who isn't ready to make the commitment to vegetarianism, let alone veganism, I personally feel the derision you pour on others' thinking to be very off-putting. Vegans come in for a lot of stick for sticking to their principles and in my opinion much of this is unfair. I can't help but think that your high-handed attitude to those who choose to eat the foodstuffs that they have evolved to eat is likely to be hugely counterproductive.
Kill the animal as quickly as possible. There are people around prepared to do that, and that’s fine with me, I’ll just do the buying and eating part. It’s like there’s people prepared to go down into the sewers to budge all the shit that clogs up. Would I enjoy my morning dump as much if I had to get down there and shift it, no, but as long as there are people that will, then I’ll keep enjoy doing it.
Ok I'm someone who likes a good analogy but this is bizarre mate. What is your point?
We as humans need a system in place for waste disposal. People are paid money to do this and it is something that needs to be done. Eating meat is a dietary choice and completely incomparable to enjoying having a dump in the morning
It doesn't seem at all bizarre to me. He's just saying that if someone else is prepared to do the dirty work, he's prepared to reap the benefits. I fully understand why you might not agree with his stance, but it really isn't rocket science understanding it.
I can assure you, I understand the post I read, that doesn't change that it's more or less nonsense in my eyes.
Waste disposal is necessary for the planet, a meal choice isn't. If that was the aim of the post.
But if it was just a general throw away comment to try and justify eating meat, it's like saying 'yeah I buy my clobber off someone who robs people locally, he is prepared to do it but as long as I don't get my hands dirty no harm done'
The buyer is still the problem ultimately and it doesn't mean they aren't the problem
The man gave you his honest reasoning as to why he eats meat. You deride this by saying it's nonsense, suggesting that his comment was 'throw away'. Who are you trying to convince of your opinion?
As someone who has considerable sympathy for your overall aims but who isn't ready to make the commitment to vegetarianism, let alone veganism, I personally feel the derision you pour on others' thinking to be very off-putting. Vegans come in for a lot of stick for sticking to their principles and in my opinion much of this is unfair. I can't help but think that your high-handed attitude to those who choose to eat the foodstuffs that they have evolved to eat is likely to be hugely counterproductive.
Exactly. I will willingly eat a cake but wouldn’t if I had to make it myself.
Comments
The Independent, Saturday 22nd December
Every day in the UK, 2.5m chickens are slaughtered for meat. Most never saw the light of day until they were driven to the slaughterhouse at the age of six weeks. By that stage, many of them are crippled, their young bones unable to support their distorted body weight. Geese have endured a similar hell.
Whatever your favourite meat, dairy or eggy meal is, you can now eat a vegan version of it. And given that you can now enjoy such food without causing suffering and death to animals, why would you not? Listen to your heart. Go vegan this Christmas.
https://independent.co.uk/voices/christmas-dinner-turkey-chicken-geese-dairy-vegan-animal-cruelty-a8694211.html
We as humans need a system in place for waste disposal. People are paid money to do this and it is something that needs to be done. Eating meat is a dietary choice and completely incomparable to enjoying having a dump in the morning
All hypothetical of course and extreme but it's just to get people on a level of understanding of how I look at things.
We as humans have the power to end animal cruelty, you stop buying meat eventually butchers and slaughter houses go out of business. We stand up against animal abusers as a society and shame it more and it's less likely to occur etc. In a nutshell we have the power to stop animals suffering. We don't do it because we are programmed from birth to think that it's ok to make an animal suffer just to cater to our taste buds. People are so insensitive to it they will see a pig being tortured and make snarky comments such as 'sounds like bacon haha' or whatever other witty bacon comment they can think of. Yet they see a dog get abused and they are up in arms. Genuinely what is the difference? Pigs have been proven to be as smart as small children and are sentient beings so why are people so insensitive towards their deaths but they see a dog mmistreated and have a good old moan. Obviously it's because of advertisement and subtle brainwashing but that's not the point. Why do we as humans think that a dog's lives is more important than let's say a pig or cow. Which brings me to my next bit.
In life we have had awful events happen, slavery, Hitler/ genocides etc. This is where I'm gonna go far out but it's just a hypothetical situation to work with human emotions. What if one day we did make contact with another life form and we shared this planet with them. It isn't so bizarre when you think of all the possibilities and maybe not our lifetimes but another it could happen. What if they just decided because they were a stronger group of people and acquired a taste for us decided to start slaughtering us. Just because they could. Your families, friends everyone you know. You get the picture. Basically you would be distraught and claim it is unfair but it's really no different from what we do now. Again it's far out, it more than likely will never happen but it's just to get you thinking about why you think your life is so much more significant than another beings.
Call me crazy but I do think a long way from now we will be looked back on for this and be frowned upon. When it is all said and done we literally cause animals to suffer everyday because we like the taste of them.
Again I know I've literally mentioned aliens and it's bonkers but I'm just trying to get you thinking a bit more about it
See this debate goes both ways and always will... I'm not saying I'd never be a vegan, but at this point in life, I like 93% of the UK population right now don't believe total veganism is a positive move.
I certainly think it'd be fantastic to reduce the amount of meat available to the population and would even personally entertain a vegan day one or two days a week.
But forcing it onto those like myself and wishing family run businesses (like the majority of butcher shops) out of business certainly doesn't help your cause.
Bear-baiting...putting children up chimneys...slavery...apartheid...votes for men only...
These practices were opposed.
I'm forcing nothing on you. What I am doing is advocating change to the ways - often appalling ways - in which society treats animals, whether that be for entertainment, clothing, or food.
Waste disposal is necessary for the planet, a meal choice isn't. If that was the aim of the post.
But if it was just a general throw away comment to try and justify eating meat, it's like saying 'yeah I buy my clobber off someone who robs people locally, he is prepared to do it but as long as I don't get my hands dirty no harm done'
The buyer is still the problem ultimately and it doesn't mean they aren't the problem
Whether anyone likes it or not their is evidence to show that there is a growing interest in veganism and more people are moving away from a ‘traditional’ diet of meat and dairy. As long as people continue to play nicely and the discussion is intelligently challenging then it should remain where it is.
I mean if that's offensive to someone then I don't know what to say really. Get some broccoli down ya?
As someone who has considerable sympathy for your overall aims but who isn't ready to make the commitment to vegetarianism, let alone veganism, I personally feel the derision you pour on others' thinking to be very off-putting. Vegans come in for a lot of stick for sticking to their principles and in my opinion much of this is unfair. I can't help but think that your high-handed attitude to those who choose to eat the foodstuffs that they have evolved to eat is likely to be hugely counterproductive.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-46695991