Speak-up Murray

AddickFC81

I know he has made some terrible mistakes but when his stock was high, was he really prepared to put what had he had built up with Curbs and Varney over 6, 7, 8 years at risk and appoint Iain Dowie just to spite Simon Jordan? I personaly don't think he did.

NapaAddick

I am not sure losing RD but new owners keeping RM (which I worry might happen) would actually be that much improvement over our current situation. RM has been RD's "enabler" since day one.

MartinCAFC

AddickFC81 said:

I know he has made some terrible mistakes but when his stock was high, was he really prepared to put what had he had built up with Curbs and Varney over 6, 7, 8 years at risk and appoint Iain Dowie just to spite Simon Jordan? I personaly don't think he did.

I think Murray was arrogant enough to think he could do this without jeopardizing our Premier League status so in his mind wouldn't have been risking everything when in reality it was an unnecessary high stakes gamble that backfired in the worst possible way.

Stu_of_Kunming

AddickFC81 said:

I know he has made some terrible mistakes but when his stock was high, was he really prepared to put what had he had built up with Curbs and Varney over 6, 7, 8 years at risk and appoint Iain Dowie just to spite Simon Jordan? I personaly don't think he did.

You're denying a known fact? Do you also think The Earth is flat?

johnny73

I believe the Murray we have now isn't the same Murray who led us into the premier league. He has been damaged by his own mistakes, by the spivs, by the reality of finances in English football. This led him to believe that an owner like Duche would give us financial security despite the cost of lack of competition and all those crazy network ideas. Since then the siege mentality has set in and he has been unable to adapt his view.

Henry Irving

Stu_of_Kunming said:

AddickFC81 said:

I know he has made some terrible mistakes but when his stock was high, was he really prepared to put what had he had built up with Curbs and Varney over 6, 7, 8 years at risk and appoint Iain Dowie just to spite Simon Jordan? I personaly don't think he did.

You're denying a known fact? Do you also think The Earth is flat?

Why is it a known fact?

Billy Davies was first choice and lined up to come, not Dowie.

Dowie was a massive mistake.

oohaahmortimer

He was prepared to not utilise Curbishley’s offers to see out the last year of his contract (which would have seen us to the increased tv money ) and to turn down Curbishley’s offer of help to find his successor.
Arrogance beyond belief .
And since Curbishley had left he hadn’t once (up to 3 years ago anyway) been invited to the boardroom or spoken to Murray !
Of course it’s a two way street but imo you don’t invite yourself to the boardroom you wait to be invited as a guest .

guinnessaddick

Henry Irving said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

AddickFC81 said:

I know he has made some terrible mistakes but when his stock was high, was he really prepared to put what had he had built up with Curbs and Varney over 6, 7, 8 years at risk and appoint Iain Dowie just to spite Simon Jordan? I personaly don't think he did.

You're denying a known fact? Do you also think The Earth is flat?

Why is it a known fact?

Billy Davies was first choice and lined up to come, not Dowie.

Dowie was a massive mistake.

As much as Dowie was a massive mistake, was sacking him a bigger one?

cafcfan

guinnessaddick said:

Henry Irving said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

AddickFC81 said:

I know he has made some terrible mistakes but when his stock was high, was he really prepared to put what had he had built up with Curbs and Varney over 6, 7, 8 years at risk and appoint Iain Dowie just to spite Simon Jordan? I personaly don't think he did.

You're denying a known fact? Do you also think The Earth is flat?

Why is it a known fact?

Billy Davies was first choice and lined up to come, not Dowie.

Dowie was a massive mistake.

As much as Dowie was a massive mistake, was sacking him a bigger one?

I'm not sure there was any choice. Setting aside for a moment his ability (or lack thereof) as a football manager, his position was surely untenable because of his general dysfunction?

BTW, if Murray stays on after the sale - being optimistic there- then my boycott continues. He is slime.

Stu_of_Kunming

Henry Irving said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

AddickFC81 said:

I know he has made some terrible mistakes but when his stock was high, was he really prepared to put what had he had built up with Curbs and Varney over 6, 7, 8 years at risk and appoint Iain Dowie just to spite Simon Jordan? I personaly don't think he did.

You're denying a known fact? Do you also think The Earth is flat?

Why is it a known fact?

Billy Davies was first choice and lined up to come, not Dowie.

Dowie was a massive mistake.

That he was willing to risk everything by appointing Dowie, it happened, it's a fact.

To my mind, there can be no other reason other than wanting to get one over Jordan, if they wanted Davis that badly, they would have given him what he wanted.

cabbles

Dowie’s probably got to go down as the worst appointment ever for me. And then to get given all that money

Imagine what Curbs could’ve done with that a few seasons prior

Mental. We didn’t know it then but it set off a chain decline that we really have never really recovered from.

Makes you appreciate Curbs even more. He was not only a great manager, he was a great custodian of the club

Stu_of_Kunming

cabbles said:

Dowie’s probably got to go down as the worst appointment ever for me.

Dowie was bad, but he wasn't Karen Fraye bad.

Henry Irving

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Henry Irving said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

AddickFC81 said:

I know he has made some terrible mistakes but when his stock was high, was he really prepared to put what had he had built up with Curbs and Varney over 6, 7, 8 years at risk and appoint Iain Dowie just to spite Simon Jordan? I personaly don't think he did.

You're denying a known fact? Do you also think The Earth is flat?

Why is it a known fact?

Billy Davies was first choice and lined up to come, not Dowie.

Dowie was a massive mistake.

That he was willing to risk everything by appointing Dowie, it happened, it's a fact.

To my mind, there can be no other reason other than wanting to get one over Jordan, if they wanted Davis that badly, they would have given him what he wanted.

"to your mind" =/= "known fact"

The Red Robin

Henry Irving said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

AddickFC81 said:

I know he has made some terrible mistakes but when his stock was high, was he really prepared to put what had he had built up with Curbs and Varney over 6, 7, 8 years at risk and appoint Iain Dowie just to spite Simon Jordan? I personaly don't think he did.

You're denying a known fact? Do you also think The Earth is flat?

Why is it a known fact?

Billy Davies was first choice and lined up to come, not Dowie.

Dowie was a massive mistake.

The mistake was not letting Curbs do another year as offered.

SoundAsa£

cafcfan said:

guinnessaddick said:

Henry Irving said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

AddickFC81 said:

I know he has made some terrible mistakes but when his stock was high, was he really prepared to put what had he had built up with Curbs and Varney over 6, 7, 8 years at risk and appoint Iain Dowie just to spite Simon Jordan? I personaly don't think he did.

You're denying a known fact? Do you also think The Earth is flat?

Why is it a known fact?

Billy Davies was first choice and lined up to come, not Dowie.

Dowie was a massive mistake.

As much as Dowie was a massive mistake, was sacking him a bigger one?

I'm not sure there was any choice. Setting aside for a moment his ability (or lack thereof) as a football manager, his position was surely untenable because of his general dysfunction?

BTW, if Murray stays on after the sale - being optimistic there- then my boycott continues. He is slime.

I read your last sentence with complete disbelief.

charltonkeston

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Henry Irving said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

AddickFC81 said:

I know he has made some terrible mistakes but when his stock was high, was he really prepared to put what had he had built up with Curbs and Varney over 6, 7, 8 years at risk and appoint Iain Dowie just to spite Simon Jordan? I personaly don't think he did.

You're denying a known fact? Do you also think The Earth is flat?

Why is it a known fact?

Billy Davies was first choice and lined up to come, not Dowie.

Dowie was a massive mistake.

That he was willing to risk everything by appointing Dowie, it happened, it's a fact.

To my mind, there can be no other reason other than wanting to get one over Jordan, if they wanted Davis that badly, they would have given him what he wanted.

I believe what I was told, Billy Davis was lined up for the job, excepted it and then went very quiet leaving us with no manager and little time to find one. Hence Dowie.

It was a tough ask for anyone to come in and take over from Curbs but I do think, as a club, we over estimated our own level. Meaning we were not as big as we thought we were, although somewhat bigger than we are now.

Stu_of_Kunming

Henry Irving said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Henry Irving said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

AddickFC81 said:

I know he has made some terrible mistakes but when his stock was high, was he really prepared to put what had he had built up with Curbs and Varney over 6, 7, 8 years at risk and appoint Iain Dowie just to spite Simon Jordan? I personaly don't think he did.

You're denying a known fact? Do you also think The Earth is flat?

Why is it a known fact?

Billy Davies was first choice and lined up to come, not Dowie.

Dowie was a massive mistake.

That he was willing to risk everything by appointing Dowie, it happened, it's a fact.

To my mind, there can be no other reason other than wanting to get one over Jordan, if they wanted Davis that badly, they would have given him what he wanted.

"to your mind" =/= "known fact"

But he was willing to risk everything by hiring Dowie, it happened, it's a fact。

SoundAsa£

I personally never bought the story that he brought in Dowie ‘just’ to piss off Jordan.
That it was an added bonus I can go along with but that he did it ‘solely’ to piss off Jordan is IMHO stretching things and it has become something of an urban myth.
As Henry has already pointed out, Billy Davis was our first choice, but his atrocious spineless last minute reneging on a hand shake given to Murray left us/Murray with a considerable problem that needed quick and firm action.
Dowie was “Johnny on the Spot” and was in fact quite a logical choice, the fact it pissed off Jordan not withstanding.

AFKABartram

SoundAsa£ said:

I personally never bought the story that he brought in Dowie ‘just’ to piss off Jordan.

Sadly, I do. Of course, I think he also rated him and actually thought he was making a bit of a coup.

However The circumstance though and the backdrop to it after his spat with Jordan I think was a massive encouragement of him thinking he was ‘winning’ imo.

Airman Brown

charltonkeston said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Henry Irving said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

AddickFC81 said:

I know he has made some terrible mistakes but when his stock was high, was he really prepared to put what had he had built up with Curbs and Varney over 6, 7, 8 years at risk and appoint Iain Dowie just to spite Simon Jordan? I personaly don't think he did.

You're denying a known fact? Do you also think The Earth is flat?

Why is it a known fact?

Billy Davies was first choice and lined up to come, not Dowie.

Dowie was a massive mistake.

That he was willing to risk everything by appointing Dowie, it happened, it's a fact.

To my mind, there can be no other reason other than wanting to get one over Jordan, if they wanted Davis that badly, they would have given him what he wanted.

I believe what I was told, Billy Davis was lined up for the job, excepted it and then went very quiet leaving us with no manager and little time to find one. Hence Dowie.

It was a tough ask for anyone to come in and take over from Curbs but I do think, as a club, we over estimated our own level. Meaning we were not as big as we thought we were, although somewhat bigger than we are now.

Murray spoke to Dowie on May 17th and 22nd, the day he left Palace. I don't think time was a factor at all.

ken_shabby

SoundAsa£ said:

I personally never bought the story that he brought in Dowie ‘just’ to piss off Jordan.
That it was an added bonus I can go along with but that he did it ‘solely’ to piss off Jordan is IMHO stretching things and it has become something of an urban myth.
As Henry has already pointed out, Billy Davis was our first choice, but his atrocious spineless last minute reneging on a hand shake given to Murray left us/Murray with a considerable problem that needed quick and firm action.
Dowie was “Johnny on the Spot” and was in fact quite a logical choice, the fact it pissed off Jordan not withstanding.

He had a job at Palace, and as I recall he'd just taken them down. What part of that scenario made him a logical choice? We were looking to push on a bit in the premier at the time. How on earth would Dowie and his CV fit into that equation?

roseandcrown

dont Think you can really blame him after curbs.

Dowie at the time think most was happy enough like wise pardew after.

I purely blame him for turning against those who have stood by him during the spivs years but mostly for his defence of Roland and sitting there doing nothing

SoundAsa£

AFKABartram said:

SoundAsa£ said:

I personally never bought the story that he brought in Dowie ‘just’ to piss off Jordan.

Sadly, I do. Of course, I think he also rated him and actually thought he was making a bit of a coup.

However The circumstance though and the backdrop to it after his spat with Jordan I think was a massive encouragement of him thinking he was ‘winning’ imo.

Well you’re saying two things there Bart.
One that you do believe that he brought him in solely to piss off Jordan and secondly that he also rated him.
Which is exactly what I’m saying.....the question is, which was more important to him.....pissing off Jordan or getting in a manager he rated.
I think it was the latter with a fair smattering of the former thrown in as an added bonus.
You and some others seem to think it was the reverse of that.

AFKABartram

ok, put another way. Had Murray not been having his spat with Jordan I don't think he would have become our manager.

SoundAsa£

AFKABartram said:

ok, put another way. Had Murray not been having his spat with Jordan I don't think he would have become our manager.

Who knows Bart......who knows.

killerandflash

Billy Davies is another one who's rather vanished. Hasn't managed for 4 years since a controversial spell at Forest

ForeverAddickted

killerandflash said:

Billy Davies is another one who's rather vanished. Hasn't managed for 4 years since a controversial spell at Forest

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/sep/09/billy-davies-nottingham-forest-derby-county-no-job-smear-campaign

charltonkeston

Airman Brown said:

charltonkeston said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Henry Irving said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

AddickFC81 said:

I know he has made some terrible mistakes but when his stock was high, was he really prepared to put what had he had built up with Curbs and Varney over 6, 7, 8 years at risk and appoint Iain Dowie just to spite Simon Jordan? I personaly don't think he did.

You're denying a known fact? Do you also think The Earth is flat?

Why is it a known fact?

Billy Davies was first choice and lined up to come, not Dowie.

Dowie was a massive mistake.

That he was willing to risk everything by appointing Dowie, it happened, it's a fact.

To my mind, there can be no other reason other than wanting to get one over Jordan, if they wanted Davis that badly, they would have given him what he wanted.

I believe what I was told, Billy Davis was lined up for the job, excepted it and then went very quiet leaving us with no manager and little time to find one. Hence Dowie.

It was a tough ask for anyone to come in and take over from Curbs but I do think, as a club, we over estimated our own level. Meaning we were not as big as we thought we were, although somewhat bigger than we are now.

Murray spoke to Dowie on May 17th and 22nd, the day he left Palace. I don't think time was a factor at all.

When did interest in Billy Davis end then? Or was it ever real?

Henry Irving

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Henry Irving said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Henry Irving said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

AddickFC81 said:

I know he has made some terrible mistakes but when his stock was high, was he really prepared to put what had he had built up with Curbs and Varney over 6, 7, 8 years at risk and appoint Iain Dowie just to spite Simon Jordan? I personaly don't think he did.

You're denying a known fact? Do you also think The Earth is flat?

Why is it a known fact?

Billy Davies was first choice and lined up to come, not Dowie.

Dowie was a massive mistake.

That he was willing to risk everything by appointing Dowie, it happened, it's a fact.

To my mind, there can be no other reason other than wanting to get one over Jordan, if they wanted Davis that badly, they would have given him what he wanted.

"to your mind" =/= "known fact"

But he was willing to risk everything by hiring Dowie, it happened, it's a fact。

Yes, that is a fact but that is not what you originally said

MuttleyCAFC

Murray was a great Chairman because he employed the right people. I think the issue was him believing his own publicity and thinking he could do more after Curbs left. He won't be the first or the last victim of his own ego in football. But what we should give him credit for is getting the right people together. At the time, we were a fantastic set up that similar sized clubs looked up at, and he was a major element in that.

History suggests he got lucky as he found it impossible to emulate the initial success and made many wrong calls. Maybe it is easier when you are on an upward trajectory than a downward one. I can't believe he doesn't feel a bit betrayed by Roland. He put all his cards in with the Belgian plank though and his ego clearly won't let him admit he was wrong. That would make everybody else right of course. It is sad really. If he knew he was the glue that held the slick machine together and that is a major talent in itself and didn't believe he could also be the parts of the machine, maybe we would not be where we are now.