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06/03/19: CARD wants commitments over 2019/20 manager, players and sale of club ahead of ST offer

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  • clb74
    clb74 Posts: 10,824
    Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
    AFKABartram said:
    robinofottershaw said:
    The usual divergence of views on here and an illustration of why it is going to be difficult for "fan power" to rid us of this idiot owner.
    Sadly this is the reality I’ve long since accepted. May just be my view but the CARD name / brand is so toxic to some of our fanbase that if CARD advised to ‘not jump off a cliff’ there would be an immediate outpouring of “they can F off, I’ll jump where I want’.

    I don’t think we can say unlike the early protest days it’s just the odd loud few with an agenda either. The main Facebook group has a strong anti-CARD stance from the majority of its most prominent posters and it has a massive outreach. Say things enough times and sub consciously it becomes the norm for many others. 

    This has unfortunately all gone on for too long. As a fanbase we’ve been bang out of fresh protest ideas for more than 18 months (not a criticism, it’s natural the ideas well eventually runs dry). There’s resistance to home protests, there’s difficulty with overseas protests, there’s not enough willing support for a blanket #NAPM stance and for those plodding along there is increasing apathy and acceptance. 

    Its not a happy mix that will gain much momentum unless the key fundamentals change. Personally I think that will be when we no longer have a Bowyer or Jackson as manager but the next Fraeye, Nobby Vinegar, and a L1 relegation campaign. Neither of those are imminent. 
    Very much this ^ I think, and I find it bizarre.

    I thought it was just a minority of freaks with Rickophobia but it seems like there is a rudderless army of keyboard amoeba who would rather lash out at CARD than the real enemy
    Thank God I'm anti card and not the same side as you
  • Six-a-bag-of-nuts
    Six-a-bag-of-nuts Posts: 8,127
    edited March 2019
    clb74 said:
    Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
    AFKABartram said:
    robinofottershaw said:
    The usual divergence of views on here and an illustration of why it is going to be difficult for "fan power" to rid us of this idiot owner.
    Sadly this is the reality I’ve long since accepted. May just be my view but the CARD name / brand is so toxic to some of our fanbase that if CARD advised to ‘not jump off a cliff’ there would be an immediate outpouring of “they can F off, I’ll jump where I want’.

    I don’t think we can say unlike the early protest days it’s just the odd loud few with an agenda either. The main Facebook group has a strong anti-CARD stance from the majority of its most prominent posters and it has a massive outreach. Say things enough times and sub consciously it becomes the norm for many others. 

    This has unfortunately all gone on for too long. As a fanbase we’ve been bang out of fresh protest ideas for more than 18 months (not a criticism, it’s natural the ideas well eventually runs dry). There’s resistance to home protests, there’s difficulty with overseas protests, there’s not enough willing support for a blanket #NAPM stance and for those plodding along there is increasing apathy and acceptance. 

    Its not a happy mix that will gain much momentum unless the key fundamentals change. Personally I think that will be when we no longer have a Bowyer or Jackson as manager but the next Fraeye, Nobby Vinegar, and a L1 relegation campaign. Neither of those are imminent. 
    Very much this ^ I think, and I find it bizarre.

    I thought it was just a minority of freaks with Rickophobia but it seems like there is a rudderless army of keyboard amoeba who would rather lash out at CARD than the real enemy
    Thank God I'm anti card and not the same side as you
    Edit - And there you have it
  • Covered End
    Covered End Posts: 52,008
    edited March 2019
    Airman Brown said:
    AFKABartram said:
    robinofottershaw said:
    The usual divergence of views on here and an illustration of why it is going to be difficult for "fan power" to rid us of this idiot owner.
    Sadly this is the reality I’ve long since accepted. May just be my view but the CARD name / brand is so toxic to some of our fanbase that if CARD advised to ‘not jump off a cliff’ there would be an immediate outpouring of “they can F off, I’ll jump where I want’.

    I don’t think we can say unlike the early protest days it’s just the odd loud few with an agenda either. The main Facebook group has a strong anti-CARD stance from the majority of its most prominent posters and it has a massive outreach. Say things enough times and sub consciously it becomes the norm for many others. 

    This has unfortunately all gone on for too long. As a fanbase we’ve been bang out of fresh protest ideas for more than 18 months (not a criticism, it’s natural the ideas well eventually runs dry). There’s resistance to home protests, there’s difficulty with overseas protests, there’s not enough willing support for a blanket #NAPM stance and for those plodding along there is increasing apathy and acceptance. 

    Its not a happy mix that will gain much momentum unless the key fundamentals change. Personally I think that will be when we no longer have a Bowyer or Jackson as manager but the next Fraeye, Nobby Vinegar, and a L1 relegation campaign. Neither of those are imminent. 
    And yet every survey ever conducted on protests and CARD says otherwise. They must all be fixed. People will argue they are not representative but they are a darn sight more accurate than the anecdotal approach based on what one person perceives. In reality many fans do not live and breathe Charlton in the way those who do assume and there is a natural default to getting on with their lives. At Doncaster last Saturday there was more hostility to RD than I've heard in two years. That's anecdotal too, but it's also a fact.
    The surveys are conducted by the Trust and occasionally CL, so they are hardly representative.

    In truth you can get any survey result you want, if it's the same people responding every time (in the main).

    This is not a criticism of the Trust, just a reality as to who responds.

    You will also note that the hostile fans at Donny last week, had travelled @200 miles to support the team, not boycott.

    AFKA is right the Facebrook group is definitely anti CARD in the main.

    The thing is I'm 100% in agreement with the CARD statement, but some try and make you out as wrong or unsupportive, if you say anything that doesn't back it verbatim without question. 
  • Airman Brown
    Airman Brown Posts: 15,734
    edited March 2019
    Covered End said:
    Airman Brown said:
    AFKABartram said:
    robinofottershaw said:
    The usual divergence of views on here and an illustration of why it is going to be difficult for "fan power" to rid us of this idiot owner.
    Sadly this is the reality I’ve long since accepted. May just be my view but the CARD name / brand is so toxic to some of our fanbase that if CARD advised to ‘not jump off a cliff’ there would be an immediate outpouring of “they can F off, I’ll jump where I want’.

    I don’t think we can say unlike the early protest days it’s just the odd loud few with an agenda either. The main Facebook group has a strong anti-CARD stance from the majority of its most prominent posters and it has a massive outreach. Say things enough times and sub consciously it becomes the norm for many others. 

    This has unfortunately all gone on for too long. As a fanbase we’ve been bang out of fresh protest ideas for more than 18 months (not a criticism, it’s natural the ideas well eventually runs dry). There’s resistance to home protests, there’s difficulty with overseas protests, there’s not enough willing support for a blanket #NAPM stance and for those plodding along there is increasing apathy and acceptance. 

    Its not a happy mix that will gain much momentum unless the key fundamentals change. Personally I think that will be when we no longer have a Bowyer or Jackson as manager but the next Fraeye, Nobby Vinegar, and a L1 relegation campaign. Neither of those are imminent. 
    And yet every survey ever conducted on protests and CARD says otherwise. They must all be fixed. People will argue they are not representative but they are a darn sight more accurate than the anecdotal approach based on what one person perceives. In reality many fans do not live and breathe Charlton in the way those who do assume and there is a natural default to getting on with their lives. At Doncaster last Saturday there was more hostility to RD than I've heard in two years. That's anecdotal too, but it's also a fact.
    The surveys are conducted by the Trust and occasionally CL, so they are hardly representative.

    In truth you can get any survey result you want, if it's the same people responding every time (in the main).

    This is not a criticism of the Trust, just a reality as to who responds.

    You will also note that the hostile fans at Donny last week, had travelled @200 miles to support the team, not boycott.

    AFKA is right the Facebrook group is definitely anti CARD in the main.

    The thing is I'm 100% in agreement with the CARD statement, but some try and make you out as wrong or unsupportive, if you say anything that doesn't back it verbatim without question. 
    There were a number of people at Doncaster who are not attending home games, so I'm not sure what that proves except that they are keen supporters.
    I really despise lazy criticism of surveys (not necessarily yours), i.e. "they didn't ask me"; "they only asked 1,000 out of 10,000 so it's not accurate". It's just pig ignorant of methodology, like arguing that national political polls aren't accurate because they don't reach 30 million people.

    I agree that all self-selection surveys will be flawed, but if you have a sample of 500 or 1,000 Charlton fans wherever they are drawn from it will give you useful information. It is not conceivable that if, say 80% of 500 respondents support protests, the reality is that only 10 per cent of the wider population do.

    On the other hand, relying on random posts off Facebook is about as reliable as the "voodoo surveys" carried out by newspapers, especially local newspapers: "Party x is heading for a landslide in Bogtown after 23 out of 30 people we stopped in the street on a Wednesday afternoon said they were going to vote x."

    Facebook posts are, by definition, self-selecting.

    As a reminder, I put this theory to the test every time I produce an issue of VOTV. If people in general had turned rabidly anti-CARD you can bet I would see that in the sales. In fact, nothing is happening - and that's another four-figure chunk of the fanbase, certainly enough to be representative.
  • JamesSeed
    JamesSeed Posts: 17,380
    Many of these groups supported Roland to the hilt, hence their initial dislike of CARD.
     But most of them have changed their minds about him, but can’t bring themselves to admit CARD might have had a point. So they attack personalities in the protest movement in any way they can. It’s bizarre. 
  • TEL
    TEL Posts: 10,100
    JamesSeed said:
    TEL said:
    razil said:
    Personally think it's time for another Valley protest. I get the argument for Belgium, but we need a show of numbers and unity by the ground, not sure the best timing or the MO for this however, although something like a march rather than a disruption on the pitch.
    Far too sensible mate, but your comment won’t be appreciated. I totally agree with you though.
    Why won't it be appreciated? (Genuine question).
    Ive always thought that staying away was playing into the old fools hands and Ive stated from the outset that I genuinely believe that this has always been about the real estate, which has been shot down by those that feel they know better.

    You have to consider that we are dealing with a man so overly confident in his own misguided business abilities that he waved the usual rights to a full due diligence report prior to buying from the Spivs....Im certain he thought he could bring off what the spivs failed to achieve re the peninsula and all the nonsense that came to light in the court case.

    Combine that with the changes in the financial fair play rules (or how they are applied) and you can see that he was never expecting to have to run the football club for a sustained period...so we see all our playing assets sold off to part compensate for the old fools outgoings. If we carry on losing support in the manner that we are at the moment, then at some point he will be able to claim that football is no longer viable at the Valley...imagine our home crowds now if we were in the relegation places....3-4,000 if we are lucky.

    Protesting from a distance really isn't working, (yes and Im even further away), staying away from home games isn't proving to hurt his pocket, just means he can sell players and relish our misery and I believe this guy is wealthy enough and spiteful enough to sustain this.

    The other problem with boycotting is that people find other interests.....and once you break the habit of going to football every other Saturday then its going to take an almighty effort to bring those fans back.

    Then there is potentially another lost generation of young support much akin to what happened when we were in exile in the Selhurst days and Trumpton Park.

    I respect some of the things CARD has done but not all.....Im not a CARD basher so to speak, but I do think from what I read online that  they are now representing a diminishing number of fans. The hardcore pro CARD support are definitely here in CL and thats why Razil's suggestion won't be appreciated.

    I personally believe that Razil is right...a show of unity is now essential and in numbers. I fear that as AKFA's earlier post stated, many people now take every opportunity to slag off CARD elsewhere, so maybe its time for them to call for unity and protest inside the ground.....they won't have many fans already committed to going to games arguing with that, (ok there will be a gobby few in a minority) but I think it will be much harder for them to convince the stay away fans to come back and make a real impact in the ground.

    Protesting in numbers before the game, verbally through the game and again afterwards will bring the media spotlight back to us where it matters, The Valley.
  • Chris_from_Sidcup
    Chris_from_Sidcup Posts: 36,019
    Whilst i fully understand the reasoning behind it, i honestly don't see how this will make much difference to Roland.

    How many season ticket holders do we have? 7k perhaps? 

    Lets say half renew early at say an average price of £350, that's just over 1.2m. The guys a billionaire, i'm not sure he will really give a shit. He'll probably lose more than that over June and July anyway.
  • Redmidland
    Redmidland Posts: 44,700
    There are and always will be in any group of fans diverse and varied opinions and thoughts. I've read anti-CARD views on every forum. Some people prefer to attack, who they perceive, as personalities within CARD and CAST. There are others who strongly support CARD and use their time to further the cause, most of the above read one or more forums and social media and post according to their thought process. Then there is the group who sit in the middle, this group, in the main, want RD to sell and go, but will accept the status quo all the time RD keeps funding losses (a sort of "a club is better than no club" attitude).
    Now with such diverse thoughts it will be impossible to get a total boycott of the ground or season tickets, it will also be nigh on impossible to agree on a course of action against RD. Even on here, myself included, the thought of delaying the game on Saturday could be counter-productive, and play into RD's hands. However where it appears to get to RD, from past stories, is in his own back-yard. There is never going to be a consensus of opinion about what to do, and I don't have the answers, I wish I did, however what ever action is agreed upon bear in mind that the most effective in recent protests seem to have been away from The Valley. RD has the upper-hand at the moment, in my opinion, as he owns the club and can call the shots, whether we like it or not. We know he doesn't like his Belgium bubble interrupted, could that be where a concerted effort is re-ignited? 
  • razil
    razil Posts: 15,041
    Once more I’ll say this we need a public display of force around something we can unite on.

    I suggest a public meeting/rally and march to the ground. Not affecting the game but showing the level of discontent, and if possible including support for new ownership preferably with fan involvement in some way in the message. In short we neeed to broaden and demonstrate support.
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  • oohaahmortimer
    oohaahmortimer Posts: 34,149
    all this it won’t affect him stuff I find bizarre in reference to finances 
    we know he’s a penny pincher 
    i mean seriously duct tape on his rhythms , come on
    If the finances were more flush do you think he’d be more or less likely to sell ?
    Against that though if he wasn’t bothered by finances he’d lower the price and get shot of us , well that’s what a sane person would do but he is clearly not of sane mind .
    hes a numbers man and it hurts he’s losing this experiment by a long way 
    so I’m with the hurt him in the pocket group 

    Some of the lameness of just carrying on and doing nothing , of our support , really beggars belief 

    doing anything has to be better than the doing nothing option 

  • Cardinal Sin
    Cardinal Sin Posts: 5,233
    When was the last Facebook group protest? Moaning about everything and doing nothing makes no difference to anything.
  • LargeAddick
    LargeAddick Posts: 32,562
    ^^ with knobs on
  • Mametz
    Mametz Posts: 1,254
    razil said:
    Once more I’ll say this we need a public display of force around something we can unite on.

    I suggest a public meeting/rally and march to the ground. Not affecting the game but showing the level of discontent, and if possible including support for new ownership preferably with fan involvement in some way in the message. In short we neeed to broaden and demonstrate support.
    I honestly don’t mean to be obtuse, but how would this help? Who would we be demonstrating our support to?
  • razil
    razil Posts: 15,041
    edited March 2019
    Each other and the outside world, but just as important it’s something as many fans as possible can unite around. I’m not suggesting it shoul be the only tactic buts it is an important one.
  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,450
    oohaahmortimer said:
    all this it won’t affect him stuff I find bizarre in reference to finances 
    we know he’s a penny pincher 
    i mean seriously duct tape on his rhythms , come on
    If the finances were more flush do you think he’d be more or less likely to sell ?
    Against that though if he wasn’t bothered by finances he’d lower the price and get shot of us , well that’s what a sane person would do but he is clearly not of sane mind .
    hes a numbers man and it hurts he’s losing this experiment by a long way 
    so I’m with the hurt him in the pocket group 

    Some of the lameness of just carrying on and doing nothing , of our support , really beggars belief 

    doing anything has to be better than the doing nothing option 

    If the main issue was money he'd have sold by now and it's now about his ego. Nobody clearly understands him or knows what his next move will be?

    Fans seem at odds with each other and the club continues to decline with no sale as yet in sight. 

    I can't see now how you can negotiate a sale with him at a reasonable price and what protests can do short of physically forcing him to sell. 

    Do we have any psychologists who can explain how to deal with RD?


  • timken
    timken Posts: 1,002
    surely if you dont want to boycott then just pay per match then you are not enabling him to continue .if he gets 5000[renewed seasontickets] x £500 [for ease of mathmatics] then that is £2.5 million.if he gets 5000x£20 on the first match hev gets 100000 so the cash flow causes a problem.Whilst I strongly disagree with those who wont boycott as they either dont believe it makes a difference of just cant do without their "fix" I do have some sympathty .But if you buy a season ticket for the convenience then "shme on you" as it just perpetuates the myth that he can do whatever he wants and still they [the punters] will buy their season tickets.
  • Redrobo
    Redrobo Posts: 11,330
    The balloon  demo would have been good for the Sky game, so would a show of red cards of Roland out. Too late now.

    The best idea I can come up with is a minutes silence at kick off.
  • razil
    razil Posts: 15,041
    Redrobo said:
    The balloon  demo would have been good for the Sky game, so would a show of red cards of Roland out. Too late now.

    The best idea I can come up with is a minutes silence at kick off.
    Why too late? And yes this Saturday would be a good call
  • SE7toSG3
    SE7toSG3 Posts: 3,140
    Just to get back to the initial post as when so many people offer up their own views and thoughts it can get lost, this is what forums are for so no problem with that. 

    No-one has called for a boycott, the message was to urge, not tell people to withhold buying a season ticket until there is a clear idea of what next seasons ownership is offering. 

    Only one person has demanded anything in the last week or so and that's Duchatalet who says we represent 2% of his time yet is 100% behind any split in the fan base, would anyone really want to fund his ownership earlier than is really necessary?      
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  • Chris_from_Sidcup
    Chris_from_Sidcup Posts: 36,019
    edited March 2019
    oohaahmortimer said:
    all this it won’t affect him stuff I find bizarre in reference to finances 
    we know he’s a penny pincher 
    i mean seriously duct tape on his rhythms , come on
    If the finances were more flush do you think he’d be more or less likely to sell ?
    Against that though if he wasn’t bothered by finances he’d lower the price and get shot of us , well that’s what a sane person would do but he is clearly not of sane mind .
    hes a numbers man and it hurts he’s losing this experiment by a long way 
    so I’m with the hurt him in the pocket group 

    Some of the lameness of just carrying on and doing nothing , of our support , really beggars belief 

    doing anything has to be better than the doing nothing option 

    Why is it bizarre? The guy loses god knows how much each month but continues to not sell the club, so that's why i don't see how a few people renewing ST's late will affect him.

    2k don't renew, never mind, he'll sell Taylor. A few more don't renew, never mind, he'll sell Aribo. He's probably already thinking about who he can sell.

    And i say this as someone who doesn't have a ST, so it's not as if i'm firmly in the 'i must keep my seat' camp. I just don't think the money bothers him that much, given the clubs monthly losses.

    And no one is saying just sit back and do nothing. I'm 100% convinced that protests/action against him in Belgium is the only thing that bothers him.
  • JamesSeed
    JamesSeed Posts: 17,380
    edited March 2019
    razil said:
    Each other and the outside world, but just as important it’s something as many fans as possible can unite around. I’m not suggesting it shoul be the only tactic buts it is an important one.

    If you want to test the water perhaps a post on the Facebook group would do the job. They seem to be against everything, so if you can persuade them you're half way there.
  • razil
    razil Posts: 15,041
    JamesSeed said:
    razil said:
    Each other and the outside world, but just as important it’s something as many fans as possible can unite around. I’m not suggesting it shoul be the only tactic buts it is an important one.

    If you want to test the water perhaps a post on the Facebook group would do the job. They seem to be against everything, so if you can persuade them you're half way there.
    I'm not sure it works that way
  • cafcfan1990
    cafcfan1990 Posts: 12,811
    We have tried boycotting (although I didn’t much) and it hasn’t worked. As others have said, the revenue from tickets isn’t enough to force Roland to sell. He’s clearly a spiteful wanker otherwise he would cut his losses and reduce his price. 

    I didnt agree with the criminal damage but it does force a reaction. I’m not sure what the answer is anymore but I don’t think a boycott is going to work, if anything it will just harm the team further. 
  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,450
    cafcfan1990 said:
    We have tried boycotting (although I didn’t much) and it hasn’t worked. As others have said, the revenue from tickets isn’t enough to force Roland to sell. He’s clearly a spiteful wanker otherwise he would cut his losses and reduce his price. 

    I didnt agree with the criminal damage but it does force a reaction. I’m not sure what the answer is anymore but I don’t think a boycott is going to work, if anything it will just harm the team further. 
    Nobody understands RD - he defies conventional logic. He's losing money on a club he doesn't care about yet is too stubborn to sell unless he achieves his ridiculous asking price. The longer he owns the club the more he devalues it.

    The only way to make him sell seems to be to physically force him to sign a sale document.

    I remain genuinely concerned at what bizarre exit strategy he will come up with. 
  • JamesSeed
    JamesSeed Posts: 17,380
    cafcfan1990 said:
    We have tried boycotting (although I didn’t much) and it hasn’t worked. As others have said, the revenue from tickets isn’t enough to force Roland to sell. He’s clearly a spiteful wanker otherwise he would cut his losses and reduce his price. 

    I didnt agree with the criminal damage but it does force a reaction. I’m not sure what the answer is anymore but I don’t think a boycott is going to work, if anything it will just harm the team further. 
    Further? I’m not sure if any protest has harmed the team has it? I can remember the Middlesbrough match where, soon to be relegated, we beat Middlesbrough 2-0, right after arguably the biggest on and off pitch protests in recent years. And I may be wrong, but I don’t believe other lower profile protests affected the team either. If anything I think they respond to the ramped up atmosphere. 
  • JamesSeed
    JamesSeed Posts: 17,380
    razil said:
    JamesSeed said:
    razil said:
    Each other and the outside world, but just as important it’s something as many fans as possible can unite around. I’m not suggesting it shoul be the only tactic buts it is an important one.

    If you want to test the water perhaps a post on the Facebook group would do the job. They seem to be against everything, so if you can persuade them you're half way there.
    I'm not sure it works that way
    If you want to bring fans together, which is an admirable aim, don’t you have to approach the antis in some way? Some, if not many, are now anti Duchâtelet, but remain opposed to protest groups. Perhaps some might change their minds if approached in the right way. 
    Rather you than me, of course. 
  • Ferryman
    Ferryman Posts: 2,921
    Chris_from_Sidcup said:
    oohaahmortimer said:
    all this it won’t affect him stuff I find bizarre in reference to finances 
    we know he’s a penny pincher 
    i mean seriously duct tape on his rhythms , come on
    If the finances were more flush do you think he’d be more or less likely to sell ?
    Against that though if he wasn’t bothered by finances he’d lower the price and get shot of us , well that’s what a sane person would do but he is clearly not of sane mind .
    hes a numbers man and it hurts he’s losing this experiment by a long way 
    so I’m with the hurt him in the pocket group 

    Some of the lameness of just carrying on and doing nothing , of our support , really beggars belief 

    doing anything has to be better than the doing nothing option 

    Why is it bizarre? The guy loses god knows how much each month but continues to not sell the club, so that's why i don't see how a few people renewing ST's late will affect him.

    2k don't renew, never mind, he'll sell Taylor. A few more don't renew, never mind, he'll sell Aribo. He's probably already thinking about who he can sell.

    And i say this as someone who doesn't have a ST, so it's not as if i'm firmly in the 'i must keep my seat' camp. I just don't think the money bothers him that much, given the clubs monthly losses.

    And no one is saying just sit back and do nothing. I'm 100% convinced that protests/action against him in Belgium is the only thing that bothers him.
    HedH sell players even if we had 27,000 season ticket holders. Would be about profit.
  • seth plum
    seth plum Posts: 53,448
    Roland is the Squire of St Truiden. It is his universe. His magic triangle is his flat, his stadium complex, and his hotel. He has, ahem, 'influence' over the local officials and structures, and many locals satisfy him by showing deference in one way or another. It isn't only a narrow world view he has, but a narrow world.
    We could do with experts on Belgian law, but I agree that even if it doesn't get him to sell, action in his home town would at least be an opportunity for us to express how we feel.
    As well as Roland, Dreisen needs attention too.
  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,622
    The only real way that a match boycott would be of use is if every single fan were not to turn up. That would create a media story probably across the football world and would massively embarrass shitbag. 

    It will never happen. I will support card and pick and choose my matches and stand by whatever any other fan chooses to do until RD is gone.

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