The thing they could bring in from Rugby, is that they should know what the on field decision is, Hooper should be allowed to say ‘on field decision is offside no goal’ and then it’s clear to Stockley Park what they are trying to change
Additionally that whole conversation is broadcasted - what exactly is there to hide by not allowing people to hear this as it happens?
Can football referees just not control their language in the same way Rugby refs can? The secrecy around it all is ridiculous.
The thing they could bring in from Rugby, is that they should know what the on field decision is, Hooper should be allowed to say ‘on field decision is offside no goal’ and then it’s clear to Stockley Park what they are trying to change
Additionally that whole conversation is broadcasted - what exactly is there to hide by not allowing people to hear this as it happens?
Football fans can’t be trusted is basically the attitude
I've listened to it and see no problems check complete check complete.
The communication needs to be clearer. At the very least it should be:
VAR: check complete, attacker is onside, you can award the goal. On field Ref: ok so to confirm, i can allow the goal? VAR: Confirmed, goal can be given.
Just saying 'check complete' means nothing really. What have you checked?
Also the fact that the video guy (who i assume is just a tech guy and not a qualified ref) is the one who had to point out to the VAR and AVAR that the on field decision was offside is crazy. Still mind blown that they didn't know offside had been given.
And even at that point the game had barely restarted 2 seconds earlier, and the VAR just says 'nothing i can do'. Would it really have been a disaster if the ref had stopped the game at that point and given the goal. I get it's 'against the rules' once the game has restarted but surely a bit of common sense had to prevail and you just adapt to the situation. I don't think anyone, and especially PGMOL would've cared had he stopped the game there and given the goal.
What he actually said was - "The audio didn't change it at all. It is an obvious mistake. There should be solutions for that. The outcome should be a replay. But it probably won't happen."
The headline makes it sound like Liverpool have gone marching to the authorities making an official request demanding a replay.
While I was watching Skys playback of the incident with audio, I couldn't help noticing how far Salah's foot seemed to move as they were selecting from the possible frames.
Presumably, the attacker and defenders feet are moving at the same rate.
It seems to be a bit of a lottery which exact moments are available for testing so making "exact" decisions based on toe nails is futile. On another day the available frames would be different and everything is moved by a few inches?
I demand a replay of the 2019 Champions League final because of an incorrect handball decision after 20 seconds. He can f right off, him and his ridiculous veneers! I despise him more than Arteta.
I demand a replay of the 2019 Champions League final because of an incorrect handball decision after 20 seconds. He can f right off, him and his ridiculous veneers! I despise him more than Arteta.
And every match where a dodgy penalty was awarded at the Kop end. Could take some time......
Dislike Liverpool and really dislike Klopp. Wants a replay due to a referee error. What a moron.
But it wasn't a referee (or var) "error" was it - they did exactly what they were supposed to do!
This was something different!
It was human error. Happens in every single game and always will. I am sure they will change the language to stop this happening in future and of course Liverpool were hard done by but to even mention replaying a game for human error is a complete nonsense.
Dislike Liverpool and really dislike Klopp. Wants a replay due to a referee error. What a moron.
Klopp is a well paid Manager of Liverpool and his job is to fight the corner of Liverpool FC as well as picking the team. I was surprised how respectful he was to the incompetent VAR officials. Klopp knows there's not a chance of the game being replayed but it's right he asks the question.
The problem isn't VAR, it's the shit referees we have in England, have a look at the VAR decision they've just given in the Champions League game between Barcelona and Porto. Clear as day penalty and they've given a handball against the Porto player who's clearly used his shoulder to control the ball and not his arm. Absolutely farcical and it's our refs that are making the shocking decisions
The problem isn't VAR, it's the shit referees we have in England, have a look at the VAR decision they've just given in the Champions League game between Barcelona and Porto. Clear as day penalty and they've given a handball against the Porto player who's clearly used his shoulder to control the ball and not his arm. Absolutely farcical and it's our refs that are making the shocking decisions
Do you understand what VAR stands for?
If the refs in England are a joke, then VAR is too, they go hand in hand.
Allow foreign refs and you’ll see at least a slight improvement.
If that is the case why couldn't the VAR guy have alerted the ref immediately on the restart of play when it was immediately clear that a free kick had been given for offside rather than the goal- it would have taken seconds to resolve and correct it - they are in constant communication with the ref no? Yes it would have made VAR look a bit bad in the short term, but to just Bury your head in the sand and refuse to immediately correct the error is so much worse
Supposedly, it's in the laws that once the decision is made and match is restarted, they can't go back and correct it. Seems a silly law to implement but I doubt they ever accounted for this level of incompetence.
Because the onfield decision was offside and the VAR "confirmed" it, the ball was already in position for the resulting free kick and they only a couple of seconds window by which time the bloke doing VAR wouldn't have been able to react quickly enough to pull it back.
Overall a 100% complete and utter shambles of communication.
One day that kind of decision will cost a club like us promotion.
That's why it is important to have this conversation now.
We are not having a conversation. You are shouting that VAR would be fantastic if it were implemented properly (even though we have had it for four years and it's still not right). And we are hollering that it will never be any good, because it is still prone to error.
You are not going to change your mind, and neither am I, until it is used for every single decision, as I have explained multiple times.
A wrongly awarded corner could cost a club like us promotion. No VAR there. Why should one team gain an advantage because the official's cock up came within the remit of VAR, but another be told to suck it up because it didn't?
Uhhhh? I'm not shouting that VAR would be fantastic in fact I have said the complete opposite consistently on this thread. I think they should get rid.
Edit in fact, I've just had to re read this back again because I'm absolutely baffled that you think my position is literally the opposite of what I think and have made no secret of on here since word go! Bizarre
Apologies MM, I didn't read back to see your previous posts, I was just reacting to "One day that kind of decision will cost a club like us promotion." Take the "You are shouting" as aimed at those that are.
Refs on the field: I understand slagging off Refs on the field is a national past time but in real time it's a difficult job; with no VAR available it's even harder.
On Charlton TV in real time it was hard to tell who had fouled who but as the Exeter player was lunging, he looked like the culprit but a red looked harsh after watching it back. When seen a few times it really didn't look like Alfie being wiped out but May's foot going towards his opponent.
VAR decision possibly would've said downgrade to Yellow. So thankfully no VAR at Charlton games as the red card was a catalyst in deciding the outcome of the match and it's lovely to see Charlton benefit from a decision and prove it's always better to have 11 against 10.
I demand a replay of the 2019 Champions League final because of an incorrect handball decision after 20 seconds. He can f right off, him and his ridiculous veneers! I despise him more than Arteta.
And every match where a dodgy penalty was awarded at the Kop end. Could take some time......
Even every match where a dodgy penalty was awarded against Charlton at Anfield would take a while, John...
The problem isn't VAR, it's the shit referees we have in England, have a look at the VAR decision they've just given in the Champions League game between Barcelona and Porto. Clear as day penalty and they've given a handball against the Porto player who's clearly used his shoulder to control the ball and not his arm. Absolutely farcical and it's our refs that are making the shocking decisions
Do you understand what VAR stands for?
If the refs in England are a joke, then VAR is too, they go hand in hand.
Allow foreign refs and you’ll see at least a slight improvement.
I'm glad it's not just me beating my head against the wall on this one.
"It's not VAR that's the problem" keeps getting repeated on here, as if VAR is just the slo mo replay, the straight lines they put on the pitch, etc. VAR is the whole system - the Video Assistant Referee. You can't somehow separate the technology from the people operating it because the whole system goes hand in hand.
I'm certainly not anti-technology - for example there's no arguing with the goal line technology that's been introduced which, I believe, is pretty non-contentious.
But the rest of it is a fucking mess, as many of us thought it might be. All we seem to have done is replace one set of real time subjective decision making with another set of delayed subjective decision making which still seems to get things wrong. Is that progress?
If that is the case why couldn't the VAR guy have alerted the ref immediately on the restart of play when it was immediately clear that a free kick had been given for offside rather than the goal- it would have taken seconds to resolve and correct it - they are in constant communication with the ref no? Yes it would have made VAR look a bit bad in the short term, but to just Bury your head in the sand and refuse to immediately correct the error is so much worse
Supposedly, it's in the laws that once the decision is made and match is restarted, they can't go back and correct it. Seems a silly law to implement but I doubt they ever accounted for this level of incompetence.
Because the onfield decision was offside and the VAR "confirmed" it, the ball was already in position for the resulting free kick and they only a couple of seconds window by which time the bloke doing VAR wouldn't have been able to react quickly enough to pull it back.
Overall a 100% complete and utter shambles of communication.
One day that kind of decision will cost a club like us promotion.
That's why it is important to have this conversation now.
We are not having a conversation. You are shouting that VAR would be fantastic if it were implemented properly (even though we have had it for four years and it's still not right). And we are hollering that it will never be any good, because it is still prone to error.
You are not going to change your mind, and neither am I, until it is used for every single decision, as I have explained multiple times.
A wrongly awarded corner could cost a club like us promotion. No VAR there. Why should one team gain an advantage because the official's cock up came within the remit of VAR, but another be told to suck it up because it didn't?
Uhhhh? I'm not shouting that VAR would be fantastic in fact I have said the complete opposite consistently on this thread. I think they should get rid.
Edit in fact, I've just had to re read this back again because I'm absolutely baffled that you think my position is literally the opposite of what I think and have made no secret of on here since word go! Bizarre
Apologies MM, I didn't read back to see your previous posts, I was just reacting to "One day that kind of decision will cost a club like us promotion." Take the "You are shouting" as aimed at those that are.
No worries mate I guess I should have been clearer - what I meant was one day that kind of VAR fuck up could cost a club like us promotion.
Spurs v Liverpool .. the controversy was brought about by the existence of VAR, before VAR and close up TV, the linesman and referee's decisions would have stood, there might have been press chat about it afterwards but that was common BVAR .. Klopp wants the game replayed, arrogant twit .. VAR is getting most decisions right, albeit literally in many cases by splitting hairs, it's the wrong uns that are keeping a lot of pundits and 'experts' in work
The BBC was this morning covering Klopp's suggestion that the game should be replayed, and it got me thinking.
What is the purpose of professional football?
- Is it a form of mass entertainment? - Is it a business run for profit?
Ultimately the two are inextricably linked, but the latter couldn't exist without the former. On that basis entertainment should be the driving force behind any change.
The problem is that VAR is effectively driven by the latter (the focus on the decision potentially costing Liverpool millions has matched the discussion on sporting integrity).
Therefore its existence is fundamentally flawed. I'd suggest that very few could effectively argue that VAR has improved, in any way, shape or form, the level of entertainment in the Premier League.
The problem isn't VAR, it's the shit referees we have in England, have a look at the VAR decision they've just given in the Champions League game between Barcelona and Porto. Clear as day penalty and they've given a handball against the Porto player who's clearly used his shoulder to control the ball and not his arm. Absolutely farcical and it's our refs that are making the shocking decisions
Do you understand what VAR stands for?
If the refs in England are a joke, then VAR is too, they go hand in hand.
Allow foreign refs and you’ll see at least a slight improvement.
I'm glad it's not just me beating my head against the wall on this one.
"It's not VAR that's the problem" keeps getting repeated on here, as if VAR is just the slo mo replay, the straight lines they put on the pitch, etc. VAR is the whole system - the Video Assistant Referee. You can't somehow separate the technology from the people operating it because the whole system goes hand in hand.
I'm certainly not anti-technology - for example there's no arguing with the goal line technology that's been introduced which, I believe, is pretty non-contentious.
But the rest of it is a fucking mess, as many of us thought it might be. All we seem to have done is replace one set of real time subjective decision making with another set of delayed subjective decision making which still seems to get things wrong. Is that progress?
Yeah, when people say that "VAR is not the problem" normally what I read that as is "the TECHNOLOGY is not the problem. And to be fair, this is actually probably true. Goal line sensors don't give false results, the off side lines are drawn accurately if somewhat pedantically etc.
But it's not the technology that's flawed with VAR it's the human element, the actual R in VAR. And no amount of technology could have prevented a fuck up like the Liverpool one where the human got it completely wrong.
Comments
Can football referees just not control their language in the same way Rugby refs can? The secrecy around it all is ridiculous.
VAR: check complete, attacker is onside, you can award the goal.
On field Ref: ok so to confirm, i can allow the goal?
VAR: Confirmed, goal can be given.
Just saying 'check complete' means nothing really. What have you checked?
Also the fact that the video guy (who i assume is just a tech guy and not a qualified ref) is the one who had to point out to the VAR and AVAR that the on field decision was offside is crazy. Still mind blown that they didn't know offside had been given.
And even at that point the game had barely restarted 2 seconds earlier, and the VAR just says 'nothing i can do'. Would it really have been a disaster if the ref had stopped the game at that point and given the goal. I get it's 'against the rules' once the game has restarted but surely a bit of common sense had to prevail and you just adapt to the situation. I don't think anyone, and especially PGMOL would've cared had he stopped the game there and given the goal.
Dislike Liverpool and really dislike Klopp. Wants a replay due to a referee error. What a moron.
What he actually said was - "The audio didn't change it at all. It is an obvious mistake. There should be solutions for that. The outcome should be a replay. But it probably won't happen."
The headline makes it sound like Liverpool have gone marching to the authorities making an official request demanding a replay.
Personally, I love VAR when it works in my favour, but when it doesn't I think its fucking shit and should be eradicated.
This was something different!
While I was watching Skys playback of the incident with audio, I couldn't help noticing how far Salah's foot seemed to move as they were selecting from the possible frames.
Presumably, the attacker and defenders feet are moving at the same rate.
It seems to be a bit of a lottery which exact moments are available for testing so making "exact" decisions based on toe nails is futile. On another day the available frames would be different and everything is moved by a few inches?
He can f right off, him and his ridiculous veneers! I despise him more than Arteta.
It was human error. Happens in every single game and always will. I am sure they will change the language to stop this happening in future and of course Liverpool were hard done by but to even mention replaying a game for human error is a complete nonsense.
Be funny if it did happen, and Spurs walloped them
Klopp is a well paid Manager of Liverpool and his job is to fight the corner of Liverpool FC as well as picking the team.
I was surprised how respectful he was to the incompetent VAR officials. Klopp knows there's not a chance of the game being replayed but it's right he asks the question.
Allow foreign refs and you’ll see at least a slight improvement.
I understand slagging off Refs on the field is a national past time but in real time it's a difficult job; with no VAR available it's even harder.
On Charlton TV in real time it was hard to tell who had fouled who but as the Exeter player was lunging, he looked like the culprit but a red looked harsh after watching it back.
When seen a few times it really didn't look like Alfie being wiped out but May's foot going towards his opponent.
VAR decision possibly would've said downgrade to Yellow.
So thankfully no VAR at Charlton games as the red card was a catalyst in deciding the outcome of the match and it's lovely to see Charlton benefit from a decision and prove it's always better to have 11 against 10.
"It's not VAR that's the problem" keeps getting repeated on here, as if VAR is just the slo mo replay, the straight lines they put on the pitch, etc. VAR is the whole system - the Video Assistant Referee. You can't somehow separate the technology from the people operating it because the whole system goes hand in hand.
I'm certainly not anti-technology - for example there's no arguing with the goal line technology that's been introduced which, I believe, is pretty non-contentious.
But the rest of it is a fucking mess, as many of us thought it might be. All we seem to have done is replace one set of real time subjective decision making with another set of delayed subjective decision making which still seems to get things wrong. Is that progress?
What is the purpose of professional football?
- Is it a form of mass entertainment?
- Is it a business run for profit?
Ultimately the two are inextricably linked, but the latter couldn't exist without the former. On that basis entertainment should be the driving force behind any change.
The problem is that VAR is effectively driven by the latter (the focus on the decision potentially costing Liverpool millions has matched the discussion on sporting integrity).
Therefore its existence is fundamentally flawed. I'd suggest that very few could effectively argue that VAR has improved, in any way, shape or form, the level of entertainment in the Premier League.
Get rid.
But it's not the technology that's flawed with VAR it's the human element, the actual R in VAR. And no amount of technology could have prevented a fuck up like the Liverpool one where the human got it completely wrong.