The problem isn't VAR, it's the shit referees we have in England, have a look at the VAR decision they've just given in the Champions League game between Barcelona and Porto. Clear as day penalty and they've given a handball against the Porto player who's clearly used his shoulder to control the ball and not his arm. Absolutely farcical and it's our refs that are making the shocking decisions
Do you understand what VAR stands for?
If the refs in England are a joke, then VAR is too, they go hand in hand.
Allow foreign refs and you’ll see at least a slight improvement.
I'm glad it's not just me beating my head against the wall on this one.
"It's not VAR that's the problem" keeps getting repeated on here, as if VAR is just the slo mo replay, the straight lines they put on the pitch, etc. VAR is the whole system - the Video Assistant Referee. You can't somehow separate the technology from the people operating it because the whole system goes hand in hand.
I'm certainly not anti-technology - for example there's no arguing with the goal line technology that's been introduced which, I believe, is pretty non-contentious.
But the rest of it is a fucking mess, as many of us thought it might be. All we seem to have done is replace one set of real time subjective decision making with another set of delayed subjective decision making which still seems to get things wrong. Is that progress?
You are consistent and that is a good post for the Anti-VAR lobby.
Do you not think VAR gets the vast majority of decisions correct but it's only the wrong ones that get talked about ?
Video technology works better in Cricket, Rugby and Tennis as those sports have constant breaks anyway.
As someone who wants to see the correct decision given and help out the abuse on field refs receive it so disappointing that we aren't on 99.99% correct decision reached with the VAR officials. The figure is high but obviously after the breakdown in communication between Darren England, Ass VAR, and Hooper and ass ref as well as the technical geeks it's meat (vegan alternative available) and drink to the stick your VAR up your arse sideways brigade.
I called it a donkeys breakfast (messy) rather than "a pile of Wank" (someone's having fun !) When the gigantic double dutch speak occured.
but maybe it should be banned for a week and extra training takes place and words like ""you can award the Goal" and "Offside confirmed, disallow the goal." Can be taught to the cerebrally challenged guys who find their way to the hot seat.
No problem with the highest rated Referees joining the Elite Premier League from around the World but not only would the pay need to be much higher to reflect their status but their English would need to be perfect as the thought of a translator getting involved on VAR would see games going on longer than many T20 cricket matches !
The problem isn't VAR, it's the shit referees we have in England, have a look at the VAR decision they've just given in the Champions League game between Barcelona and Porto. Clear as day penalty and they've given a handball against the Porto player who's clearly used his shoulder to control the ball and not his arm. Absolutely farcical and it's our refs that are making the shocking decisions
Do you understand what VAR stands for?
If the refs in England are a joke, then VAR is too, they go hand in hand.
Allow foreign refs and you’ll see at least a slight improvement.
I'm glad it's not just me beating my head against the wall on this one.
"It's not VAR that's the problem" keeps getting repeated on here, as if VAR is just the slo mo replay, the straight lines they put on the pitch, etc. VAR is the whole system - the Video Assistant Referee. You can't somehow separate the technology from the people operating it because the whole system goes hand in hand.
I'm certainly not anti-technology - for example there's no arguing with the goal line technology that's been introduced which, I believe, is pretty non-contentious.
But the rest of it is a fucking mess, as many of us thought it might be. All we seem to have done is replace one set of real time subjective decision making with another set of delayed subjective decision making which still seems to get things wrong. Is that progress?
You are consistent and that is a good post for the Anti-VAR lobby.
Do you not think VAR gets the vast majority of decisions correct but it's only the wrong ones that get talked about ?
Video technology works better in Cricket, Rugby and Tennis as those sports have constant breaks anyway.
As someone who wants to see the correct decision given and help out the abuse on field refs receive it so disappointing that we aren't on 99.99% correct decision reached with the VAR officials. The figure is high but obviously after the breakdown in communication between Darren England, Ass VAR, and Hooper and ass ref as well as the technical geeks it's meat (vegan alternative available) and drink to the stick your VAR up your arse sideways brigade.
I called it a donkeys breakfast (messy) rather than "a pile of Wank" (someone's having fun !) When the gigantic double dutch speak occured.
but maybe it should be banned for a week and extra training takes place and words like ""you can award the Goal" and "Offside confirmed, disallow the goal." Can be taught to the cerebrally challenged guys who find their way to the hot seat.
Howard Webb, sort it out.😤
The thing is, I think that in general the officials used to get the vast majority of things right anyway before, and it was only the iffy decisions that got talked about. And of course they were never going to get EVERYTHING right, but they still aren't now.
What we've done is sacrifice the spontaneity of the game for this stop start, drawing lines on the pitch bullshit in the pursuit of perfection that can NEVER be attained. VAR was supposed to be there as a last resort for "clear and obvious errors" and now we're in this ridiculous situation where - completely ignoring the ludicrous "offside" mistake in the Spurs match - the Brentford player can get wiped out by the Forest keeper, the ref misses it and VAR does nothing.
And while I'm in full swing, haven't those making the rules lost sight of the very purpose of the offside rule? It's to stop players goal hanging, which it does very well. It was never about having an armpit hair a millimetre further advanced than the last defender.
Still, the likes of Sky are happy. Gives them more stuff to talk about, and they pay the piper after all!
The BBC was this morning covering Klopp's suggestion that the game should be replayed, and it got me thinking.
What is the purpose of professional football?
- Is it a form of mass entertainment? - Is it a business run for profit?
Ultimately the two are inextricably linked, but the latter couldn't exist without the former. On that basis entertainment should be the driving force behind any change.
The problem is that VAR is effectively driven by the latter (the focus on the decision potentially costing Liverpool millions has matched the discussion on sporting integrity).
Therefore its existence is fundamentally floored. I'd suggest that very few could effectively argue that VAR has improved, in any way, shape or form, the level of entertainment in the Premier League.
Get rid.
I agree (but then I would, wouldn't I...).
A number of fans may really, genuinely have an aching desire to get some "crucial" decisons 100% correct (while being happy that others are in the eye of the beholder - which decisons are and are not "crucial" being left entirely to the whim of a bloke or three in an office somewhere), but it is a fact that very many do talk of decisions costing hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pounds. As "supporters" of the big six/seven since 1992, they really have been brainwashed into thinking the sport comes second to the £$€...
Somebody earlier in this thread thought it was important in case some schmuck lost a fucking bet on it, for Christs sake!
Even though I think we have had the shitty end of the stick more often than the clean one, I would still rather the game stayed the same at all levels, in all competitions.
I would hate VAR to make every decision, but until it does, all talk of "getting it right every time" is rubbish.
No problem with the highest rated Referees joining the Elite Premier League from around the World but not only would the pay need to be much higher to reflect their status but their English would need to be perfect as the thought of a translator getting involved on VAR would see games going on longer than many T20 cricket matches !
Ever watched a World Cup? Language wouldn’t be an issue at all.
The BBC was this morning covering Klopp's suggestion that the game should be replayed, and it got me thinking.
What is the purpose of professional football?
- Is it a form of mass entertainment? - Is it a business run for profit?
Ultimately the two are inextricably linked, but the latter couldn't exist without the former. On that basis entertainment should be the driving force behind any change.
The problem is that VAR is effectively driven by the latter (the focus on the decision potentially costing Liverpool millions has matched the discussion on sporting integrity).
Therefore its existence is fundamentally floored. I'd suggest that very few could effectively argue that VAR has improved, in any way, shape or form, the level of entertainment in the Premier League.
Get rid.
I agree (but then I would, wouldn't I...).
A number of fans may really, genuinely have an aching desire to get some "crucial" decisons 100% correct (while being happy that others are in the eye of the beholder - which decisons are and are not "crucial" being left entirely to the whim of a bloke or three in an office somewhere), but it is a fact that very many do talk of decisions costing hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pounds. As "supporters" of the big six/seven since 1992, they really have been brainwashed into thinking the sport comes second to the £$€...
Somebody earlier in this thread thought it was important in case some schmuck lost a fucking bet on it, for Christs sake!
Even though I think we have had the shitty end of the stick more often than the clean one, I would still rather the game stayed the same at all levels, in all competitions.
I would hate VAR to make every decision, but until it does, all talk of "getting it right every time" is rubbish.
I am currently self-flagellating for the atrociously erroneous use of the word "floored" instead of "flawed". Shame on me...
The problem isn't VAR, it's the shit referees we have in England, have a look at the VAR decision they've just given in the Champions League game between Barcelona and Porto. Clear as day penalty and they've given a handball against the Porto player who's clearly used his shoulder to control the ball and not his arm. Absolutely farcical and it's our refs that are making the shocking decisions
Do you understand what VAR stands for?
If the refs in England are a joke, then VAR is too, they go hand in hand.
Allow foreign refs and you’ll see at least a slight improvement.
I'm glad it's not just me beating my head against the wall on this one.
"It's not VAR that's the problem" keeps getting repeated on here, as if VAR is just the slo mo replay, the straight lines they put on the pitch, etc. VAR is the whole system - the Video Assistant Referee. You can't somehow separate the technology from the people operating it because the whole system goes hand in hand.
I'm certainly not anti-technology - for example there's no arguing with the goal line technology that's been introduced which, I believe, is pretty non-contentious.
But the rest of it is a fucking mess, as many of us thought it might be. All we seem to have done is replace one set of real time subjective decision making with another set of delayed subjective decision making which still seems to get things wrong. Is that progress?
But this point is kind of backing up what others (and myself) are saying.
VAR (the technology side of it) isn't the problem, it's the idiots that run it.
Pretty much spot on, although he's also right in that they'll never scrap it now.
Personally i'd be happy if they just had the goal line technology plus the automated offside thing they had at the world cup and then everything else is left to the on field refs decision.
Even if it was possible to give the red card to VAR for a Month in the Premier while Howard Webb and the powers to be sort out the communication and to get the parallel lines on the screen for off sides in an instant, if anyone thinks there wouldn't be controversial decisions when we just have the on field ref and his two Assistant refs then you are deluded.
If you see the percentage of correct decisions by VAR most matches the figure is very high but when Technology gets it wrong with the assist by humans then it a bad look.
If you prefer the on field refs decisions whether right or wrong then great because it will help the continuity of matches which has so many stoppages already.
It doesn't affect Charlton and I doubt it ever will and Charlton fan/critics can carry on slagging off Refs ad nauseam, as it appears to be mandatory even when we win.
The problem isn't VAR, it's the shit referees we have in England, have a look at the VAR decision they've just given in the Champions League game between Barcelona and Porto. Clear as day penalty and they've given a handball against the Porto player who's clearly used his shoulder to control the ball and not his arm. Absolutely farcical and it's our refs that are making the shocking decisions
Do you understand what VAR stands for?
If the refs in England are a joke, then VAR is too, they go hand in hand.
Allow foreign refs and you’ll see at least a slight improvement.
I'm glad it's not just me beating my head against the wall on this one.
"It's not VAR that's the problem" keeps getting repeated on here, as if VAR is just the slo mo replay, the straight lines they put on the pitch, etc. VAR is the whole system - the Video Assistant Referee. You can't somehow separate the technology from the people operating it because the whole system goes hand in hand.
I'm certainly not anti-technology - for example there's no arguing with the goal line technology that's been introduced which, I believe, is pretty non-contentious.
But the rest of it is a fucking mess, as many of us thought it might be. All we seem to have done is replace one set of real time subjective decision making with another set of delayed subjective decision making which still seems to get things wrong. Is that progress?
But this point is kind of backing up what others (and myself) are saying.
VAR (the technology side of it) isn't the problem, it's the idiots that run it.
No it doesn't back up what you're saying at all.
VAR is the whole system.
Of course we know cameras "work". We know that freeze frame "works". We know that slow motion "works". We've had all that for years and we know it all works. We know that someone can draw a straight line on a screen. That's the technology side of things. It works, we know that. There's not a lot that can go wrong there.
But the technology has to be used and implemented correctly and decisions have to be taken. That's part of the whole VAR system.
So to say "VAR isn't the problem" is completely missing the point of what VAR actually is and is, quite frankly, bullshit!
They’ve been talking it to death in the SSN studio just now. Mike Dean giving it that it was a split second decision which was a mistake. Paul Merson saying it was so why couldn’t the game be stopped, the goal given & then restart the game. Mike Dean replying because it’s against the laws and you ex players clearly don’t know them that’s why you couldn’t have ex players in the VAR room as they don’t know the laws. Queue Merse going apoplectic, screaming ‘no one died’ ‘it’s football’ and all Mike Dean kept repeating is ‘it’s the law, it’s the law’.
Albeit it was funny. Is this what’s really stopping VAR being used properly? That officials are so bound by the the laws of the game they are too afraid to break them when a law has obviously been broken by not giving a legitimate goal due to their error?
Seems, mostly, based on the impact on the matchday atmosphere, and lack of fan consultation during its implementation. An example in the article where the game was stopped for 7 minutes to decide whether a goal should stand. You could even pop out for a beer and back in that time...we'll maybe not at The Valley...but that's ridiculous.
I used to be a supporter of the idea of VAR but I would now prefer it scrapped, as all it has done is exposed how poor the refs are, can have all the working technology in the world but games still getting changed by their mistakes as they were before any of us ever heard of VAR.
If the officials are incapable of doing a decent job then we might as well just go back to the quicker decision process.
Just read this regarding the Kovacic tackle yesterday.
"The reason VAR was not involved to decide whether or not Kovacic should have been given a second yellow card is that the video assistant can only draw the referee's attention to a possible red card. The VAR is not permitted to interrupt for decisions regarding a possible second yellow card."
This to me is madness. If VAR is there, then surely use it? Seems crazy that it can be used to judge if a player has a toenail offside, but can't be used to look at a dangerous tackle.
But to me it's absolutely stupid that VAR can intervene for a red card decision, but cannot intervene to make the ref relook at a yellow card decision that would then result in a red. That's a potential game changing decision.
I used to be a supporter of the idea of VAR but I would now prefer it scrapped, as all it has done is exposed how poor the refs are, can have all the working technology in the world but games still getting changed by their mistakes as they were before any of us ever heard of VAR.
If the officials are incapable of doing a decent job then we might as well just go back to the quicker decision process.
I actually think its made it more difficult for refs and linesman who were actually pretty good before they had big brother watching them.
Let them just make on field decisions in real time.
And lets go back to putting the flag up if the player is offside at the point where the ball is played, rather than the current nonsense.
Just read this regarding the Kovacic tackle yesterday.
"The reason VAR was not involved to decide whether or not Kovacic should have been given a second yellow card is that the video assistant can only draw the referee's attention to a possible red card. The VAR is not permitted to interrupt for decisions regarding a possible second yellow card."
This to me is madness. If VAR is there, then surely use it? Seems crazy that it can be used to judge if a player has a toenail offside, but can't be used to look at a dangerous tackle.
I used to be a supporter of the idea of VAR but I would now prefer it scrapped, as all it has done is exposed how poor the refs are, can have all the working technology in the world but games still getting changed by their mistakes as they were before any of us ever heard of VAR.
If the officials are incapable of doing a decent job then we might as well just go back to the quicker decision process.
I actually think its made it more difficult for refs and linesman who were actually pretty good before they had big brother watching them.
Let them just make on field decisions in real time.
And lets go back to putting the flag up if the player is offside at the point where the ball is played, rather than the current nonsense.
I used to be a supporter of the idea of VAR but I would now prefer it scrapped, as all it has done is exposed how poor the refs are, can have all the working technology in the world but games still getting changed by their mistakes as they were before any of us ever heard of VAR.
If the officials are incapable of doing a decent job then we might as well just go back to the quicker decision process.
I actually think its made it more difficult for refs and linesman who were actually pretty good before they had big brother watching them.
Let them just make on field decisions in real time.
And lets go back to putting the flag up if the player is offside at the point where the ball is played, rather than the current nonsense.
Did a ref upset you when you were little? You seem emotionally scarred.
I used to be a supporter of the idea of VAR but I would now prefer it scrapped, as all it has done is exposed how poor the refs are, can have all the working technology in the world but games still getting changed by their mistakes as they were before any of us ever heard of VAR.
If the officials are incapable of doing a decent job then we might as well just go back to the quicker decision process.
I actually think its made it more difficult for refs and linesman who were actually pretty good before they had big brother watching them.
Let them just make on field decisions in real time.
And lets go back to putting the flag up if the player is offside at the point where the ball is played, rather than the current nonsense.
There was always a fear that VAR might change referees behaviour and would prefer not to make big calls and leave it up to VAR.
I think this is creeping in a bit now and we have VAR "correcting" decisions the ref never made in the first place!
Comments
You are consistent and that is a good post for the Anti-VAR lobby.
Do you not think VAR gets the vast majority of decisions correct but it's only the wrong ones that get talked about ?
Video technology works better in Cricket, Rugby and Tennis as those sports have constant breaks anyway.
As someone who wants to see the correct decision given and help out the abuse on field refs receive it so disappointing that we aren't on 99.99% correct decision reached with the VAR officials. The figure is high but obviously after the breakdown in communication between Darren England, Ass VAR, and Hooper and ass ref as well as the technical geeks it's meat (vegan alternative available) and drink to the stick your VAR up your arse sideways brigade.
I called it a donkeys breakfast (messy) rather than "a pile of Wank" (someone's having fun !) When the gigantic double dutch speak occured.
but maybe it should be banned for a week and extra training takes place and words like ""you can award the Goal" and
"Offside confirmed, disallow the goal." Can be taught to the cerebrally challenged guys who find their way to the hot seat.
Howard Webb, sort it out.😤
we don’t have the best refs
What we've done is sacrifice the spontaneity of the game for this stop start, drawing lines on the pitch bullshit in the pursuit of perfection that can NEVER be attained. VAR was supposed to be there as a last resort for "clear and obvious errors" and now we're in this ridiculous situation where - completely ignoring the ludicrous "offside" mistake in the Spurs match - the Brentford player can get wiped out by the Forest keeper, the ref misses it and VAR does nothing.
And while I'm in full swing, haven't those making the rules lost sight of the very purpose of the offside rule? It's to stop players goal hanging, which it does very well. It was never about having an armpit hair a millimetre further advanced than the last defender.
Still, the likes of Sky are happy. Gives them more stuff to talk about, and they pay the piper after all!
A number of fans may really, genuinely have an aching desire to get some "crucial" decisons 100% correct (while being happy that others are in the eye of the beholder - which decisons are and are not "crucial" being left entirely to the whim of a bloke or three in an office somewhere), but it is a fact that very many do talk of decisions costing hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pounds. As "supporters" of the big six/seven since 1992, they really have been brainwashed into thinking the sport comes second to the £$€...
Somebody earlier in this thread thought it was important in case some schmuck lost a fucking bet on it, for Christs sake!
Even though I think we have had the shitty end of the stick more often than the clean one, I would still rather the game stayed the same at all levels, in all competitions.
I would hate VAR to make every decision, but until it does, all talk of "getting it right every time" is rubbish.
I am currently self-flagellating for the atrociously erroneous use of the word "floored" instead of "flawed". Shame on me...
VAR (the technology side of it) isn't the problem, it's the idiots that run it.
England boss Gareth Southgate criticises impact of VAR on fans at games
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67025054Personally i'd be happy if they just had the goal line technology plus the automated offside thing they had at the world cup and then everything else is left to the on field refs decision.
If you see the percentage of correct decisions by VAR most matches the figure is very high but when Technology gets it wrong with the assist by humans then it a bad look.
If you prefer the on field refs decisions whether right or wrong then great because it will help the continuity of matches which has so many stoppages already.
It doesn't affect Charlton and I doubt it ever will and Charlton fan/critics can carry on slagging off Refs ad nauseam, as it appears to be mandatory even when we win.
VAR is the whole system.
Of course we know cameras "work". We know that freeze frame "works". We know that slow motion "works". We've had all that for years and we know it all works. We know that someone can draw a straight line on a screen. That's the technology side of things. It works, we know that. There's not a lot that can go wrong there.
But the technology has to be used and implemented correctly and decisions have to be taken. That's part of the whole VAR system.
So to say "VAR isn't the problem" is completely missing the point of what VAR actually is and is, quite frankly, bullshit!
No realistic but just a "thought".
Because of ill health I'm attending my first game for nearly a year today and I am so glad there is no VAR to spoil it!
Mike Dean giving it that it was a split second decision which was a mistake.
Paul Merson saying it was so why couldn’t the game be stopped, the goal given & then restart the game.
Mike Dean replying because it’s against the laws and you ex players clearly don’t know them that’s why you couldn’t have ex players in the VAR room as they don’t know the laws.
Queue Merse going apoplectic, screaming ‘no one died’ ‘it’s football’ and all Mike Dean kept repeating is ‘it’s the law, it’s the law’.
Albeit it was funny. Is this what’s really stopping VAR being used properly? That officials are so bound by the the laws of the game they are too afraid to break them when a law has obviously been broken by not giving a legitimate goal due to their error?
If so.
Its never going to work is it 🤷♀️
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/oct/08/protest-and-resist-fans-in-scandinavia-lead-backlash-against-var
Seems, mostly, based on the impact on the matchday atmosphere, and lack of fan consultation during its implementation. An example in the article where the game was stopped for 7 minutes to decide whether a goal should stand. You could even pop out for a beer and back in that time...we'll maybe not at The Valley...but that's ridiculous.
Blatant foul on Richarlison stopped him scoring in the first couple of minutes yesterday, not even looked at by VAR.
Thats the 4th blatant stone wall penalty we've had this year when VAR hasnt even looked at the incident.
But on my second pint the beer had a massive frothy head on it.
If the officials are incapable of doing a decent job then we might as well just go back to the quicker decision process.
"The reason VAR was not involved to decide whether or not Kovacic should have been given a second yellow card is that the video assistant can only draw the referee's attention to a possible red card. The VAR is not permitted to interrupt for decisions regarding a possible second yellow card."
This to me is madness. If VAR is there, then surely use it? Seems crazy that it can be used to judge if a player has a toenail offside, but can't be used to look at a dangerous tackle.
- goal/no goal
- penalty/no penalty
- direct red card (not second caution)
- mistaken identity when the referee cautions or sends off the wrong player of the offending team
Chris_from_Sidcup , the above has been lifted direct from the Laws of the Game; Law 5, Referees DutiesBut to me it's absolutely stupid that VAR can intervene for a red card decision, but cannot intervene to make the ref relook at a yellow card decision that would then result in a red. That's a potential game changing decision.
Let them just make on field decisions in real time.
And lets go back to putting the flag up if the player is offside at the point where the ball is played, rather than the current nonsense.
I think this is creeping in a bit now and we have VAR "correcting" decisions the ref never made in the first place!