An important question should be, what are the Bulgarians doing to ensure that those that walked out of the stadium at half time are identified and banned for life?
Interesting but I find the growing number of “vloggers” irritating no more so than the twat in the van
Simple solution, don't select their videos if you don't want to watch the content.
Vloggers really don't bother me as I only watch those that I have an interest in... Like the kid that does x jobs to uncover how much you can actually earn or Jamie Boxall's Charlton one.
There's far more irritating stuff on the internet. There's multiple Palace and Millwall forums for a start.
Gareth Southgate post-match press conference briefly interrupted by Bulgarian journalist who’s convinced racism at the game was not as bad as we witnessed. Bulgarian cameraman next to me tells Southgate to fuck off at the end
The country as a whole has a major problem. That’s why we call them tinpot and backwards - what chance of ever stopping it. You have people giving Nazi salutes, and the people witj the influence to try and get a message across are just as bad as the perpetrators!
We have to remember that it was not so long ago it was happening here. I stopped going to England games when people around me were standing giving Nazi salutes during our national anthem. I was not going to stand alongside these racists. It was good to hear the England fans slagging off the Bulgarians for their racism last night.
I recall in my younger days going to a Palace v Charlton game and Charlton fans threw bananas on the pitch at Ian Wright and made monkey chants which I was ashamed at. A lot of fans thought it was funny and we did have a very racist fanbase. I was close to packing in going to football because of it, but thankfully these people were driven out and some of them hopefully became educated. These people are in Bulgarian society, they are even still in our society, they just have to be removed from football. The football authorities do have the power to do this but they also need the will.
No they have to be removed from society until they understand how abhorrent their behaviour really is.
They exist in this country too. I am talking from the perspective of football. I have been to Bulgaria and these bastards do not represent the Bulgarian people, the same as our racists don't reflect us.
They exist in this country too. I am talking from the perspective of football. I have been to Bulgaria and these bastards do not represent the Bulgarian people, the same as our racists don't reflect us.
My point isn’t that they don’t exist in our society - they clearly do.
You can’t deny the fact that our influential individuals react in a far more ethical way than we have seen in Bulgaria. Again I will say - can you imagine Gareth Southgate flatly denying what happened last night if it happened at Wembley. He would have been devastated and demanding action is taken. Likewise the head of the Bulgarian FA complaining about Southgate rather than apologising.
there is a major issue rooted in that country if people at the top are taking this attitude and setting that example
Think we should give the armband back to Henderson - i don't see how the player furthest up the pitch can messages quickly to the back four without playing deeper and much as i like Kane i don;t seem him as a leader.
Think we should give the armband back to Henderson - i don't see how the player furthest up the pitch can messages quickly to the back four without playing deeper and much as i like Kane i don;t seem him as a leader.
Some of the best captains have been forwards or goalkeepers. Whoever Southgate thinks is best, is probably a better option than any of us will suggest.
I agree, we are probably 20 years further up the road than they are. We have plenty of racists in this country, just been on the news that hate attacks have risen by 10%. But these low lifes are largely not welcome in English football. Racist groups are still trying to get back in and we have to keep them out. That is why when we see standards slip, we have a duty to come down on perpetrators like a ton of bricks.
I understand the Bulgarian PM has demanded the resignation of the head of the Bulgarian FA. Maybe this could be the catalyst that allows them to deal with their issues. But we have to remember that this is in the context of football, not society. Although that shouldn't be underestimated as the far right have used, and will continue to use, football for their own ends.
Gareth Southgate post-match press conference briefly interrupted by Bulgarian journalist who’s convinced racism at the game was not as bad as we witnessed. Bulgarian cameraman next to me tells Southgate to fuck off at the end
The country as a whole has a major problem. That’s why we call them tinpot and backwards - what chance of ever stopping it. You have people giving Nazi salutes, and the people witj the influence to try and get a message across are just as bad as the perpetrators!
We have to remember that it was not so long ago it was happening here. I stopped going to England games when people around me were standing giving Nazi salutes during our national anthem. I was not going to stand alongside these racists. It was good to hear the England fans slagging off the Bulgarians for their racism last night.
I recall in my younger days going to a Palace v Charlton game and Charlton fans threw bananas on the pitch at Ian Wright and made monkey chants which I was ashamed at. A lot of fans thought it was funny and we did have a very racist fanbase. I was close to packing in going to football because of it, but thankfully these people were driven out and some of them hopefully became educated. These people are in Bulgarian society, they are even still in our society, they just have to be removed from football. The football authorities do have the power to do this but they also need the will.
No they have to be removed from society until they understand how abhorrent their behaviour really is.
For a moment there I thought we’re talking about vloggers 😬
The president of the Bulgarian Football Union Borislav Mihaylov was so offended by talk of potential racist abuse in Sofia that he wrote to UEFA to complain about Gareth Southgate. Wonder what he’ll say now?? 🤔
So offended by talk of racist abuse.............at a game where parts of the ground were closed because of racist abuse at previous games.
When we had a black manager, Charlton fans were arrested for racist chants at a Fulham away game. The club acted very well in that situation but it was only about 7 odd years ago. We even had at least one racist poster on here trying to defend them if I recall, although I don't think he posts anymore. I still found it disgusting at the time, that is why I remember it. And it is why we have to be vigilant. Unacceptable behaviour from our away supporters needs to be challenged otherwise this will return.
Sorry, but it has to be said. Yes, Bulgaria needs the strongest punishment, but we can't let standards slip here either. And there have been reported incidents at other clubs recently.
I find this all especially hard to take as I know Bulgaria quite well - or I thought I did - and have two great friends from there. But having watched that last night and read all the tweets, I now realise that the signs have always been there for a long time. The most worrying thing is that racism in Bulgaria is not confined to uneducated losers. Going with it is a manic belief in conspiracy theories and the ability to pretend that black is white (sorry for that metaphor in this context) in the face of overwhelming rational evidence to the contrary, as witnessed by the disgraceful response of Balakov, and, it seems, most of their sport journalists.
So reluctantly I have to agree that Bulgaria should be kicked out of the tournament. I would only add that similar attitudes are found right across the Balkan countries, so if they really are organising a joint bid for 2028, taking tough action on Bulgaria now is necessary to avoid possible acceptance of a bid which in its way will be even more disgraceful that the Qatar World Cup.
At the same time I can only say that @Huskaris neighbours are probably genuine. I have Bulgarian friends who will say exactly the same thing. The trouble is, one of them, the one I often mention, who helped us get Kishishev, might not. He might talk like Balakov. That is how deep it goes, and I am gutted to have to write that.
As for England, Gareth Southgate and the entire team and back-room staff did us and the civilised world proud last night.
When we had a black manager, Charlton fans were arrested for racist chants at a Fulham away game. The club acted very well in that situation but it was only about 7 odd years ago. We even had at least one racist poster on here trying to defend them if I recall, although I don't think he posts anymore. I still found it disgusting at the time, that is why I remember it. And it is why we have to be vigilant. Unacceptable behaviour from our away supporters needs to be challenged otherwise this will return.
Sorry, but it has to be said. Yes, Bulgaria needs the strongest punishment, but we can't let standards slip here either. And there have been reported incidents at other clubs recently.
Completely true. But in order to deal with the problems, you first have to acknowledge you have problems. Which we do, very publicly. That's the big and important difference between us an Bulgaria.
Gareth Southgate post-match press conference briefly interrupted by Bulgarian journalist who’s convinced racism at the game was not as bad as we witnessed. Bulgarian cameraman next to me tells Southgate to fuck off at the end
The country as a whole has a major problem. That’s why we call them tinpot and backwards - what chance of ever stopping it. You have people giving Nazi salutes, and the people witj the influence to try and get a message across are just as bad as the perpetrators!
Surely we should be tolerant of our EU Partners if we wish to REMAIN like our political elite evidently do?
To be serious the Bulgarians are disgraceful but UEFA and the FA will find a way to blame the English.
Gareth Southgate post-match press conference briefly interrupted by Bulgarian journalist who’s convinced racism at the game was not as bad as we witnessed. Bulgarian cameraman next to me tells Southgate to fuck off at the end
The country as a whole has a major problem. That’s why we call them tinpot and backwards - what chance of ever stopping it. You have people giving Nazi salutes, and the people witj the influence to try and get a message across are just as bad as the perpetrators!
Surely we should be tolerant of our EU Partners if we wish to REMAIN like our political elite evidently do?
To be serious the Bulgarians are disgraceful but UEFA and the FA will find a way to blame the English.
It's the way of the world.
Serious question for you, Len. And anyone else. Which body can and should hold UEFA to account? Or FIFA? Or the IOC. You can bang on about the EU or whatever but these institutions are not answerable to national governments not the EU, the UN, nothing. You had the FBI raiding FIFA. But then what? No governments really had the will to follow up on that. And you know why? Because their electorates turn a blind eye too. They just love their Sky Sport too much.
Dont know if anyone has already mentioned it but the Bulgarian Prime Minister is now saying that the head of the Bulgarian FA should stand down after whats happened!!
Gareth Southgate post-match press conference briefly interrupted by Bulgarian journalist who’s convinced racism at the game was not as bad as we witnessed. Bulgarian cameraman next to me tells Southgate to fuck off at the end
The country as a whole has a major problem. That’s why we call them tinpot and backwards - what chance of ever stopping it. You have people giving Nazi salutes, and the people witj the influence to try and get a message across are just as bad as the perpetrators!
Surely we should be tolerant of our EU Partners if we wish to REMAIN like our political elite evidently do?
To be serious the Bulgarians are disgraceful but UEFA and the FA will find a way to blame the English.
It's the way of the world.
Serious question for you, Len. And anyone else. Which body can and should hold UEFA to account? Or FIFA? Or the IOC. You can bang on about the EU or whatever but these institutions are not answerable to national governments not the EU, the UN, nothing. You had the FBI raiding FIFA. But then what? No governments really had the will to follow up on that. And you know why? Because their electorates turn a blind eye too. They just love their Sky Sport too much.
In essence money talks one way or the other.
So we get what I call 'the lessons will be learned' syndrome whereby some po faced spokesperson stands on a step in front of the media to kick it down the road until the next time.
Lack of accountability of various institutions is a big problem all round in my opinion along with the personal and professional integrity of many of those at the helm of those institutions.
If the will was really there the FA could liaise with its French, German, Dutch (and other countries with many black players) counterparts and put up a united bloc to UEFA and get them to do something meaningful.
You saw Greg Clarke last night on the TV. There's more chance of Fiona Bruce inviting me round for a night of unbridled passion!
I'd have quite liked to see England walk off the pitch yesterday.
As it unfolded last night, I decided that I didn’t want them to walk off and it had nothing to do with the score line.
Walking off the pitch is what the racists would’ve wanted, a victory (in their minds) for them.
If anything, it seemed that Sterling, Mings, Rashford, Wilson and the team thrived on the adversity of it all and adopted the mentality that there’s no way we’re going to be beaten either on the pitch or by these Neanderthals in the stands.
Southgate, the players and staff handled it perfectly and if the governing body do not now put in place stringent sanctions then it is they who should continue to hang their heads in shame along with the Bulgarian minority.
I’ve got a hell of a lot of respect for those black players who had to endure that last night, they should be proud of themselves.
I'd have quite liked to see England walk off the pitch yesterday.
As it unfolded last night, I decided that I didn’t want them to walk off and it had nothing to do with the score line.
Walking off the pitch is what the racists would’ve wanted, a victory (in their minds) for them.
If anything, it seemed that Sterling, Mings, Rashford, Wilson and the team thrived on the adversity of it all and adopted the mentality that there’s no way we’re going to be beaten either on the pitch or by these Neanderthals in the stands.
Southgate, the players and staff handled it perfectly and if the governing body do not now put in place stringent sanctions then it is they who should continue to hang their heads in shame along with the Bulgarian minority.
I’ve got a hell of a lot of respect for those black players who had to endure that last night, they should be proud of themselves.
I completely get this train of thought. Mine would be a bit different though, and I suppose it's all about one's personal preference when faced with something like this.
If we walked off, it sends a clear message that our team would not tolerate being abused in its place of work. It also signals to UEFA that their three-step protocol for handling the situation should, in fact, be zero tolerance. It would be a clear and direct message to the governing body.
Armed with video and audio evidence (salutes/monkey chants et al), there would equally be no way for UEFA to impose sanctions on England, otherwise it is akin to saying "we tolerate abuse directed at players upon threat of penalty to the victims".
I also think it would have sent a stronger message than respecting current protocol, which will likely see a pitifully small fine and one game behind closed doors, or something similar, as Bulgaria's punishment.
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As a wider issue though, how can one reconcile international football with the clearly endemic/accepted racism in certain cultures? Evidently there is a significant proportion of the population in countries such as Russia, Bulgaria, Italy and beyond that accepts racism in some form.
Well let's hope, Len, that last night really was a shock to the system, and a catalyst for change, but I have to say that if so the credit will go more to Gareth Southgate and the players than to the rest of us, who wring our hands when it happens but how many of us will really be ready to speak up formally? The CAST AGM is coming up next month. Perhaps people could go along and use that meeting to discuss how CAST can be part of a serious push by fans to pressure the relevant authorities, including politicians. The problem isn't any inactivity of the CAST board (of which I am no longer a member). Quite the contrary. They need the mandate from members, the clear signal that this is something that members feel is really important. I can promise you that ST activists at virtually every club will be thinking the same.
As for what action exactly. How about this for starters. Who were the UEFA "monitors" last night, who apparently are deaf and blind? They need to be named, and fired. Not much good an individual writing it on a message board, but if a large group of Trusts get together and demand it, that will be picked up by the media quickly and UEFA will be under a lot of pressure. We can do more than we realise, but we have to be organised and committed.
Dont know if anyone has already mentioned it but the Bulgarian Prime Minister is now saying that the head of the Bulgarian FA should stand down after whats happened!!
Not sure the head of the Bulgarian FA needs to go, unless we know them to be racist also?
I'd have quite liked to see England walk off the pitch yesterday.
I think that gives far to much power to these morons and also facilitates the possibility of individuals making these noises just to get a game called off, esp if it's not going in their favour.
It also completely disrespects the fans (some of whom are also black and will have endured abuse without protection) who have paid thousands, travelled miles and taken time off work to attend and in reality are far more at risk in Bulgaria than pampered football players, however bad the abuse for them obviously was.
Comments
Vloggers really don't bother me as I only watch those that I have an interest in... Like the kid that does x jobs to uncover how much you can actually earn or Jamie Boxall's Charlton one.
There's far more irritating stuff on the internet. There's multiple Palace and Millwall forums for a start.
You can’t deny the fact that our influential individuals react in a far more ethical way than we have seen in Bulgaria. Again I will say - can you imagine Gareth Southgate flatly denying what happened last night if it happened at Wembley. He would have been devastated and demanding action is taken. Likewise the head of the Bulgarian FA complaining about Southgate rather than apologising.
there is a major issue rooted in that country if people at the top are taking this attitude and setting that example
I understand the Bulgarian PM has demanded the resignation of the head of the Bulgarian FA. Maybe this could be the catalyst that allows them to deal with their issues. But we have to remember that this is in the context of football, not society. Although that shouldn't be underestimated as the far right have used, and will continue to use, football for their own ends.
Sorry, but it has to be said. Yes, Bulgaria needs the strongest punishment, but we can't let standards slip here either. And there have been reported incidents at other clubs recently.
Very mature performance by Mings yesterday too, his strong character shone through.
So reluctantly I have to agree that Bulgaria should be kicked out of the tournament. I would only add that similar attitudes are found right across the Balkan countries, so if they really are organising a joint bid for 2028, taking tough action on Bulgaria now is necessary to avoid possible acceptance of a bid which in its way will be even more disgraceful that the Qatar World Cup.
At the same time I can only say that @Huskaris neighbours are probably genuine. I have Bulgarian friends who will say exactly the same thing. The trouble is, one of them, the one I often mention, who helped us get Kishishev, might not. He might talk like Balakov. That is how deep it goes, and I am gutted to have to write that.
As for England, Gareth Southgate and the entire team and back-room staff did us and the civilised world proud last night.
Barney Ronay is calling it right, IMO, as he often does on stuff like this.
To be serious the Bulgarians are disgraceful but UEFA and the FA will find a way to blame the English.
It's the way of the world.
So we get what I call 'the lessons will be learned' syndrome whereby some po faced spokesperson stands on a step in front of the media to kick it down the road until the next time.
Lack of accountability of various institutions is a big problem all round in my opinion along with the personal and professional integrity of many of those at the helm of those institutions.
If the will was really there the FA could liaise with its French, German, Dutch (and other countries with many black players) counterparts and put up a united bloc to UEFA and get them to do something meaningful.
You saw Greg Clarke last night on the TV. There's more chance of Fiona Bruce inviting me round for a night of unbridled passion!
Walking off the pitch is what the racists would’ve wanted, a victory (in their minds) for them.
If anything, it seemed that Sterling, Mings, Rashford, Wilson and the team thrived on the adversity of it all and adopted the mentality that there’s no way we’re going to be beaten either on the pitch or by these Neanderthals in the stands.
Southgate, the players and staff handled it perfectly and if the governing body do not now put in place stringent sanctions then it is they who should continue to hang their heads in shame along with the Bulgarian minority.
I’ve got a hell of a lot of respect for those black players who had to endure that last night, they should be proud of themselves.
If we walked off, it sends a clear message that our team would not tolerate being abused in its place of work. It also signals to UEFA that their three-step protocol for handling the situation should, in fact, be zero tolerance. It would be a clear and direct message to the governing body.
Armed with video and audio evidence (salutes/monkey chants et al), there would equally be no way for UEFA to impose sanctions on England, otherwise it is akin to saying "we tolerate abuse directed at players upon threat of penalty to the victims".
I also think it would have sent a stronger message than respecting current protocol, which will likely see a pitifully small fine and one game behind closed doors, or something similar, as Bulgaria's punishment.
-----------------
As a wider issue though, how can one reconcile international football with the clearly endemic/accepted racism in certain cultures? Evidently there is a significant proportion of the population in countries such as Russia, Bulgaria, Italy and beyond that accepts racism in some form.
Not a question with an easy solution.
The level of denial really is quite shocking. I'm lost for words
As for what action exactly. How about this for starters. Who were the UEFA "monitors" last night, who apparently are deaf and blind? They need to be named, and fired. Not much good an individual writing it on a message board, but if a large group of Trusts get together and demand it, that will be picked up by the media quickly and UEFA will be under a lot of pressure. We can do more than we realise, but we have to be organised and committed.
It also completely disrespects the fans (some of whom are also black and will have endured abuse without protection) who have paid thousands, travelled miles and taken time off work to attend and in reality are far more at risk in Bulgaria than pampered football players, however bad the abuse for them obviously was.
I am glad they simply chose to humiliate Bulgaria on the pitch whilst never getting out of 2nd gear.