Because Bow tries to play a high tempo pressing game, my take on it is that new players just aren’t fit enough for that way of playing so they tend to get injuries after a couple of matches. or Theyre just a big bunch of Nancy boys...maybe.
That's what Eamon Dunphy said.
Mind you he was talking about Charlton in the early to mid seventies.
remember the tip off i had that field was out for the season - hope not but...
Well seeing he was on the bench against Barnsley and Stoke...
I know but I didn’t make it up and there is clearly an ongoing re occurring issue - as I say, hope I’m wrong
Behave. You said he was out for the season and returning to West Brom with a terminated loan. Don't try and claim him getting injured again as being ITK.
no i didn't - i said he was out for the season and once you've checked it you can apologise and promise to check your facts before posting
But he wasn’t out for the season when you said it. He was on the subs bench last week
I refer you to my answer to Scoham above - as I said at the time’ I’d be surprised if my source was wrong so that could be the explanation - or he could just have been wrong - who cares I just hope he is ok to play soon
Of course it was wrong. Unless of course your source is a specialist who recommended Field is out for the season but the medical teams at West Brom and Charlton ignore them.
Don’t know the origin of the info but I know who told the person who told me so anything’s possible - no of course about it
So you're saying that we had a player on the bench who was out for the season and had no chance of ever playing? Despite the fact that we've fielded incomplete benches before. Sorry but that makes no sense
@PeterGage to clarify my earlier post which might have seemed unfairly harsh, it seemed to me that you are conflating two different things, in order to defend referees. On Tuesday night, Williams was not "falling over" (i.e.diving) but was repeatedly fouled. We know this because your refereeing colleague gave a string of free kicks. However different Forest players committed the foul, and that is a pattern which the Valley Pass commentators have noted to be familiar whenever Williams has played. Those fouls on Tuesday, committed by the same player, would have resulted in a booking (which if the player had a brain, would have stopped him committing further fouls).
People are asking why refs do not recognise this and take action. I am fairly sure they are allowed to by warning the team captain, no? If not, @billysboots has pointed out the remedy that exists in rugby. Don't you think that is worth considering, and more constructive than suggesting Williams is a coward?
FWIW the one with a diving issue is Hemed. I want him to prove himself and do well, but he needs to cut that bit out.
Williams is continuously fouled, but he often goes down very easily and then rolls around in agony, before jumping up and playing on, more often than not.
He is basically making himself a target.
Yes, the referees could give greater protection to the more skilful players, but having said that they get more protection than they have ever had.
30 years ago Williams would have done well to finish a game.
@PeterGage to clarify my earlier post which might have seemed unfairly harsh, it seemed to me that you are conflating two different things, in order to defend referees. On Tuesday night, Williams was not "falling over" (i.e.diving) but was repeatedly fouled. We know this because your refereeing colleague gave a string of free kicks. However different Forest players committed the foul, and that is a pattern which the Valley Pass commentators have noted to be familiar whenever Williams has played. Those fouls on Tuesday, committed by the same player, would have resulted in a booking (which if the player had a brain, would have stopped him committing further fouls).
People are asking why refs do not recognise this and take action. I am fairly sure they are allowed to by warning the team captain, no? If not, @billysboots has pointed out the remedy that exists in rugby. Don't you think that is worth considering, and more constructive than suggesting Williams is a coward?
FWIW the one with a diving issue is Hemed. I want him to prove himself and do well, but he needs to cut that bit out.
Thanks @PragueAddick for your comments. I was not at the game you are referring to; I was commenting on Williams generally.
The current Laws of the Game, as others have pointed out, do not allow for an opponent to be cautioned for the cumulative actions of the team as a whole (unless of course that foul alone is worthy of a caution).
I guess we are going to disagree on Williams (that's fine by me). To me he goes down far too easily, because he doesn't appear to have an appitite to compete in the physical side of the game. All opponents attempt to identify the weaknesses of all opponents (slow movement, failure to mark players etc etc) and play upon those weaknesses. It is natural therefore to foul players like Williams by a number of different opponents and providing no individual foul is deemed to be a caution, then the ref cannot take any actions, other than award a free kick. It is frustrating, I know, but that is the reality of the current Laws of the Game.
Why do you think that a player with the natural skills of Williams has not fulfilled his full potential and indeed was only playing at league one level last season (with us). Is the full blame to be put at the feet of referees?
2020hrs here now - enjoy the rest of your evening. I shall be at the game tomorrow.
@PeterGage to clarify my earlier post which might have seemed unfairly harsh, it seemed to me that you are conflating two different things, in order to defend referees. On Tuesday night, Williams was not "falling over" (i.e.diving) but was repeatedly fouled. We know this because your refereeing colleague gave a string of free kicks. However different Forest players committed the foul, and that is a pattern which the Valley Pass commentators have noted to be familiar whenever Williams has played. Those fouls on Tuesday, committed by the same player, would have resulted in a booking (which if the player had a brain, would have stopped him committing further fouls).
People are asking why refs do not recognise this and take action. I am fairly sure they are allowed to by warning the team captain, no? If not, @billysboots has pointed out the remedy that exists in rugby. Don't you think that is worth considering, and more constructive than suggesting Williams is a coward?
FWIW the one with a diving issue is Hemed. I want him to prove himself and do well, but he needs to cut that bit out.
Just one issue there @PragueAddick, can you please name one Forest player who fouled Williams on Tuesday night?
@PeterGage to clarify my earlier post which might have seemed unfairly harsh, it seemed to me that you are conflating two different things, in order to defend referees. On Tuesday night, Williams was not "falling over" (i.e.diving) but was repeatedly fouled. We know this because your refereeing colleague gave a string of free kicks. However different Forest players committed the foul, and that is a pattern which the Valley Pass commentators have noted to be familiar whenever Williams has played. Those fouls on Tuesday, committed by the same player, would have resulted in a booking (which if the player had a brain, would have stopped him committing further fouls).
People are asking why refs do not recognise this and take action. I am fairly sure they are allowed to by warning the team captain, no? If not, @billysboots has pointed out the remedy that exists in rugby. Don't you think that is worth considering, and more constructive than suggesting Williams is a coward?
FWIW the one with a diving issue is Hemed. I want him to prove himself and do well, but he needs to cut that bit out.
Thanks @PragueAddick for your comments. I was not at the game you are referring to; I was commenting on Williams generally.
The current Laws of the Game, as others have pointed out, do not allow for an opponent to be cautioned for the cumulative actions of the team as a whole (unless of course that foul alone is worthy of a caution).
I guess we are going to disagree on Williams (that's fine by me). To me he goes down far too easily, because he doesn't appear to have an appitite to compete in the physical side of the game. All opponents attempt to identify the weaknesses of all opponents (slow movement, failure to mark players etc etc) and play upon those weaknesses. It is natural therefore to foul players like Williams by a number of different opponents and providing no individual foul is deemed to be a caution, then the ref cannot take any actions, other than award a free kick. It is frustrating, I know, but that is the reality of the current Laws of the Game.
Why do you think that a player with the natural skills of Williams has not fulfilled his full potential and indeed was only playing at league one level last season (with us). Is the full blame to be put at the feet of referees?
2020hrs here now - enjoy the rest of your evening. I shall be at the game tomorrow.
Well that's a question worth discussing. Here is his Wiki page. Give that a read, and "unlucky with injuries" is one answer that shouts out from the page. Another is that he is only 5ft6. To succeed at the top level with that height you have to be something special. I don't think anyone is suggesting that lack of protection from refs has inhibited his overall career. We (those who agree with my point) rather suggest that, apparently the laws of the game allow for a cynical targetting of individual players by collective sharing out of fouls, and that should be stamped out.
Thinking about it, I would say Oztumer draws the same kind of fouls, in the same kind of positions. I would imagine that if he starts to have more of an influence on games, he will suffer from the same collective attacks that Williams gets.
@PeterGage to clarify my earlier post which might have seemed unfairly harsh, it seemed to me that you are conflating two different things, in order to defend referees. On Tuesday night, Williams was not "falling over" (i.e.diving) but was repeatedly fouled. We know this because your refereeing colleague gave a string of free kicks. However different Forest players committed the foul, and that is a pattern which the Valley Pass commentators have noted to be familiar whenever Williams has played. Those fouls on Tuesday, committed by the same player, would have resulted in a booking (which if the player had a brain, would have stopped him committing further fouls).
People are asking why refs do not recognise this and take action. I am fairly sure they are allowed to by warning the team captain, no? If not, @billysboots has pointed out the remedy that exists in rugby. Don't you think that is worth considering, and more constructive than suggesting Williams is a coward?
FWIW the one with a diving issue is Hemed. I want him to prove himself and do well, but he needs to cut that bit out.
Just one issue there @PragueAddick, can you please name one Forest player who fouled Williams on Tuesday night?
Lordy, red face time, I am confusing the Forest and the Stoke games (both of which I watched on Valley Pass). He was of course eventually subbed in the Stoke game.
@PeterGage to clarify my earlier post which might have seemed unfairly harsh, it seemed to me that you are conflating two different things, in order to defend referees. On Tuesday night, Williams was not "falling over" (i.e.diving) but was repeatedly fouled. We know this because your refereeing colleague gave a string of free kicks. However different Forest players committed the foul, and that is a pattern which the Valley Pass commentators have noted to be familiar whenever Williams has played. Those fouls on Tuesday, committed by the same player, would have resulted in a booking (which if the player had a brain, would have stopped him committing further fouls).
People are asking why refs do not recognise this and take action. I am fairly sure they are allowed to by warning the team captain, no? If not, @billysboots has pointed out the remedy that exists in rugby. Don't you think that is worth considering, and more constructive than suggesting Williams is a coward?
FWIW the one with a diving issue is Hemed. I want him to prove himself and do well, but he needs to cut that bit out.
Thanks @PragueAddick for your comments. I was not at the game you are referring to; I was commenting on Williams generally.
The current Laws of the Game, as others have pointed out, do not allow for an opponent to be cautioned for the cumulative actions of the team as a whole (unless of course that foul alone is worthy of a caution).
I guess we are going to disagree on Williams (that's fine by me). To me he goes down far too easily, because he doesn't appear to have an appitite to compete in the physical side of the game. All opponents attempt to identify the weaknesses of all opponents (slow movement, failure to mark players etc etc) and play upon those weaknesses. It is natural therefore to foul players like Williams by a number of different opponents and providing no individual foul is deemed to be a caution, then the ref cannot take any actions, other than award a free kick. It is frustrating, I know, but that is the reality of the current Laws of the Game.
Why do you think that a player with the natural skills of Williams has not fulfilled his full potential and indeed was only playing at league one level last season (with us). Is the full blame to be put at the feet of referees?
2020hrs here now - enjoy the rest of your evening. I shall be at the game tomorrow.
Well that's a question worth discussing. Here is his Wiki page. Give that a read, and "unlucky with injuries" is one answer that shouts out from the page. Another is that he is only 5ft6. To succeed at the top level with that height you have to be something special. I don't think anyone is suggesting that lack of protection from refs has inhibited his overall career. We (those who agree with my point) rather suggest that, apparently the laws of the game allow for a cynical targetting of individual players by collective sharing out of fouls, and that should be stamped out.
Thinking about it, I would say Oztumer draws the same kind of fouls, in the same kind of positions. I would imagine that if he starts to have more of an influence on games, he will suffer from the same collective attacks that Williams gets.
I am not disagreeing that the weakness of Williams is targetted ( as the same with all players), the Laws of the Game do not allow refs to take and cummulative action in some circumstances.
So therefore Williams has to find a solution if he is to provide a greater impact upon the game than he currently does. Maybe releasing the ball earlier in the negative two thirds of the pitch and conversely running at opposing defences in the top third to draw the fouls where free kicks can lead to a goalscoring opportunity. As I said in a diffent thread, both Grealish this season and Song for the last 18 months have had a greater impact upon the game by standing up.
It is almost certainly a waste of time but I would consider, If I was the club, in putting together video evidence of every foul on Williams during a game over a number of games and explain that refs not protecting him is damaging his career. Send it to the authorities as a complaint.
Genuine question: you dont think that Williams is his own worst enemy by constantly falling over? Graham Souness said recently that in his playing time, it was considered a weakness to show pain. After he picked himself up following a foul on him, Souness would make sure he kicked back the person who fouled him, twice as hard at the best time during the remainder of the game. Souness went on to label many of today's players as "snowflakes". Williams in my mind comes into this category.
Williams to me does not have the mental strength to compete in an important part of the game, namely the physical side. Other teams know that and it seems they target his huge weakness as we, in turn, seek to exploit weaknesses in other aspects of the game in other players (eg weak in the air, no left foot etc etc). Williams needs to "man up" and stay on his feet more. Grealish and Song are much more effective players this season because they do just that, stay on their feet.
Constantly falling over? Funny, I've missed that. Together with all the yellow cards the ref must have given him for simulation. (although most refs seem not to be aware of that regulation)
Your disntinctly questionable defence of refereeing incompetence (victim blaming, basically) falls over when we consider that as I mentioned above, Derby carried out the same collective practice against Gallagher. Did you watch that? You saw the blood seeping through his sock above the ankle? Was he "falling over" too?
Agreed, I’m with you ... ridiculous condemnation of a very talented player.
@PeterGage to clarify my earlier post which might have seemed unfairly harsh, it seemed to me that you are conflating two different things, in order to defend referees. On Tuesday night, Williams was not "falling over" (i.e.diving) but was repeatedly fouled. We know this because your refereeing colleague gave a string of free kicks. However different Forest players committed the foul, and that is a pattern which the Valley Pass commentators have noted to be familiar whenever Williams has played. Those fouls on Tuesday, committed by the same player, would have resulted in a booking (which if the player had a brain, would have stopped him committing further fouls).
People are asking why refs do not recognise this and take action. I am fairly sure they are allowed to by warning the team captain, no? If not, @billysboots has pointed out the remedy that exists in rugby. Don't you think that is worth considering, and more constructive than suggesting Williams is a coward?
FWIW the one with a diving issue is Hemed. I want him to prove himself and do well, but he needs to cut that bit out.
Thanks @PragueAddick for your comments. I was not at the game you are referring to; I was commenting on Williams generally.
The current Laws of the Game, as others have pointed out, do not allow for an opponent to be cautioned for the cumulative actions of the team as a whole (unless of course that foul alone is worthy of a caution).
I guess we are going to disagree on Williams (that's fine by me). To me he goes down far too easily, because he doesn't appear to have an appitite to compete in the physical side of the game. All opponents attempt to identify the weaknesses of all opponents (slow movement, failure to mark players etc etc) and play upon those weaknesses. It is natural therefore to foul players like Williams by a number of different opponents and providing no individual foul is deemed to be a caution, then the ref cannot take any actions, other than award a free kick. It is frustrating, I know, but that is the reality of the current Laws of the Game.
Why do you think that a player with the natural skills of Williams has not fulfilled his full potential and indeed was only playing at league one level last season (with us). Is the full blame to be put at the feet of referees?
2020hrs here now - enjoy the rest of your evening. I shall be at the game tomorrow.
Well that's a question worth discussing. Here is his Wiki page. Give that a read, and "unlucky with injuries" is one answer that shouts out from the page. Another is that he is only 5ft6. To succeed at the top level with that height you have to be something special. I don't think anyone is suggesting that lack of protection from refs has inhibited his overall career. We (those who agree with my point) rather suggest that, apparently the laws of the game allow for a cynical targetting of individual players by collective sharing out of fouls, and that should be stamped out.
Thinking about it, I would say Oztumer draws the same kind of fouls, in the same kind of positions. I would imagine that if he starts to have more of an influence on games, he will suffer from the same collective attacks that Williams gets.
I am not disagreeing that the weakness of Williams is targetted ( as the same with all players), the Laws of the Game do not allow refs to take and cummulative action in some circumstances.
So therefore Williams has to find a solution if he is to provide a greater impact upon the game than he currently does. Maybe releasing the ball earlier in the negative two thirds of the pitch and conversely running at opposing defences in the top third to draw the fouls where free kicks can lead to a goalscoring opportunity. As I said in a diffent thread, both Grealish this season and Song for the last 18 months have had a greater impact upon the game by standing up.
Or Maybe refs stop players fouling him all the time. It is ridiculous some games!
Williams looks for and invites fouls though. Reminds me of another Johnny who played for us and did very much the same thing.
Exactly, he's like the small kid at school who had kick me written on his back and lots did. He's purposely looking for the fouls. As Peter Gage said if he passed the ball earlier he wouldn't get kicked as much.
Williams style reminds me a little of Rugby League players, who burst forward a few yards knowing they will get tackled and then they have to pass the ball between their legs to a colleague.
Quality professional footballer told how to play the game so he doesn’t get fouled by an ex ref, makes me laugh.
Don't get to the root of the problem of “team fouling” blame the person getting fouled , unbelievable.
I would add this is not just a “Williams” problem its a football problem, happens to many players who are comfortable on the ball and who take players on.
@PeterGage to clarify my earlier post which might have seemed unfairly harsh, it seemed to me that you are conflating two different things, in order to defend referees. On Tuesday night, Williams was not "falling over" (i.e.diving) but was repeatedly fouled. We know this because your refereeing colleague gave a string of free kicks. However different Forest players committed the foul, and that is a pattern which the Valley Pass commentators have noted to be familiar whenever Williams has played. Those fouls on Tuesday, committed by the same player, would have resulted in a booking (which if the player had a brain, would have stopped him committing further fouls).
People are asking why refs do not recognise this and take action. I am fairly sure they are allowed to by warning the team captain, no? If not, @billysboots has pointed out the remedy that exists in rugby. Don't you think that is worth considering, and more constructive than suggesting Williams is a coward?
FWIW the one with a diving issue is Hemed. I want him to prove himself and do well, but he needs to cut that bit out.
Thanks @PragueAddick for your comments. I was not at the game you are referring to; I was commenting on Williams generally.
The current Laws of the Game, as others have pointed out, do not allow for an opponent to be cautioned for the cumulative actions of the team as a whole (unless of course that foul alone is worthy of a caution).
I guess we are going to disagree on Williams (that's fine by me). To me he goes down far too easily, because he doesn't appear to have an appitite to compete in the physical side of the game. All opponents attempt to identify the weaknesses of all opponents (slow movement, failure to mark players etc etc) and play upon those weaknesses. It is natural therefore to foul players like Williams by a number of different opponents and providing no individual foul is deemed to be a caution, then the ref cannot take any actions, other than award a free kick. It is frustrating, I know, but that is the reality of the current Laws of the Game.
Why do you think that a player with the natural skills of Williams has not fulfilled his full potential and indeed was only playing at league one level last season (with us). Is the full blame to be put at the feet of referees?
2020hrs here now - enjoy the rest of your evening. I shall be at the game tomorrow.
Well that's a question worth discussing. Here is his Wiki page. Give that a read, and "unlucky with injuries" is one answer that shouts out from the page. Another is that he is only 5ft6. To succeed at the top level with that height you have to be something special. I don't think anyone is suggesting that lack of protection from refs has inhibited his overall career. We (those who agree with my point) rather suggest that, apparently the laws of the game allow for a cynical targetting of individual players by collective sharing out of fouls, and that should be stamped out.
Thinking about it, I would say Oztumer draws the same kind of fouls, in the same kind of positions. I would imagine that if he starts to have more of an influence on games, he will suffer from the same collective attacks that Williams gets.
I am not disagreeing that the weakness of Williams is targetted ( as the same with all players), the Laws of the Game do not allow refs to take and cummulative action in some circumstances.
So therefore Williams has to find a solution if he is to provide a greater impact upon the game than he currently does. Maybe releasing the ball earlier in the negative two thirds of the pitch and conversely running at opposing defences in the top third to draw the fouls where free kicks can lead to a goalscoring opportunity. As I said in a diffent thread, both Grealish this season and Song for the last 18 months have had a greater impact upon the game by standing up.
So consistent fouling is allowed in some circumstances?
Righto.
Then you say he should run at opposition defenders to draw fouls... 9/10 times Williams is scythed down. It's on the referee to manage that, not the player.
My neutral (Spurs supporting 🤮) friend who came and watched the Barnsley game with me thought that Williams went down to easily.
I definitely feel he draws a lot of fouls, but sometimes makes the most of it. If it was an opposition player doing it, I'd probably be annoyed. But it's not, and it's winning us free kicks in good positions.
remember the tip off i had that field was out for the season - hope not but...
Well seeing he was on the bench against Barnsley and Stoke...
I know but I didn’t make it up and there is clearly an ongoing re occurring issue - as I say, hope I’m wrong
Behave. You said he was out for the season and returning to West Brom with a terminated loan. Don't try and claim him getting injured again as being ITK.
no i didn't - i said he was out for the season and once you've checked it you can apologise and promise to check your facts before posting
But he wasn’t out for the season when you said it. He was on the subs bench last week
I refer you to my answer to Scoham above - as I said at the time’ I’d be surprised if my source was wrong so that could be the explanation - or he could just have been wrong - who cares I just hope he is ok to play soon
Of course it was wrong. Unless of course your source is a specialist who recommended Field is out for the season but the medical teams at West Brom and Charlton ignore them.
Don’t know the origin of the info but I know who told the person who told me so anything’s possible - no of course about it
So you're saying that we had a player on the bench who was out for the season and had no chance of ever playing? Despite the fact that we've fielded incomplete benches before. Sorry but that makes no sense
no, that doesn't make sense and is not what i'm saying
In the Barnsley game, Jonny, the nicest man in football, Williams did go down a tad easy on a couple of occasions but there were obvious fouls on him. I haven't seen it mentioned but Jonny was caught by Josh Cullen in a 3 man pile up and still there were calls for a foul !
Jonny Williams should receive the ball further forward where he can commit defenders on the edge of the area. Getting fouls on the half way line rarely lead to anything. ( Other than a booking )
@PeterGage to clarify my earlier post which might have seemed unfairly harsh, it seemed to me that you are conflating two different things, in order to defend referees. On Tuesday night, Williams was not "falling over" (i.e.diving) but was repeatedly fouled. We know this because your refereeing colleague gave a string of free kicks. However different Forest players committed the foul, and that is a pattern which the Valley Pass commentators have noted to be familiar whenever Williams has played. Those fouls on Tuesday, committed by the same player, would have resulted in a booking (which if the player had a brain, would have stopped him committing further fouls).
People are asking why refs do not recognise this and take action. I am fairly sure they are allowed to by warning the team captain, no? If not, @billysboots has pointed out the remedy that exists in rugby. Don't you think that is worth considering, and more constructive than suggesting Williams is a coward?
FWIW the one with a diving issue is Hemed. I want him to prove himself and do well, but he needs to cut that bit out.
Thanks @PragueAddick for your comments. I was not at the game you are referring to; I was commenting on Williams generally.
The current Laws of the Game, as others have pointed out, do not allow for an opponent to be cautioned for the cumulative actions of the team as a whole (unless of course that foul alone is worthy of a caution).
I guess we are going to disagree on Williams (that's fine by me). To me he goes down far too easily, because he doesn't appear to have an appitite to compete in the physical side of the game. All opponents attempt to identify the weaknesses of all opponents (slow movement, failure to mark players etc etc) and play upon those weaknesses. It is natural therefore to foul players like Williams by a number of different opponents and providing no individual foul is deemed to be a caution, then the ref cannot take any actions, other than award a free kick. It is frustrating, I know, but that is the reality of the current Laws of the Game.
Why do you think that a player with the natural skills of Williams has not fulfilled his full potential and indeed was only playing at league one level last season (with us). Is the full blame to be put at the feet of referees?
2020hrs here now - enjoy the rest of your evening. I shall be at the game tomorrow.
Well that's a question worth discussing. Here is his Wiki page. Give that a read, and "unlucky with injuries" is one answer that shouts out from the page. Another is that he is only 5ft6. To succeed at the top level with that height you have to be something special. I don't think anyone is suggesting that lack of protection from refs has inhibited his overall career. We (those who agree with my point) rather suggest that, apparently the laws of the game allow for a cynical targetting of individual players by collective sharing out of fouls, and that should be stamped out.
Thinking about it, I would say Oztumer draws the same kind of fouls, in the same kind of positions. I would imagine that if he starts to have more of an influence on games, he will suffer from the same collective attacks that Williams gets.
I am not disagreeing that the weakness of Williams is targetted ( as the same with all players), the Laws of the Game do not allow refs to take and cummulative action in some circumstances.
So therefore Williams has to find a solution if he is to provide a greater impact upon the game than he currently does. Maybe releasing the ball earlier in the negative two thirds of the pitch and conversely running at opposing defences in the top third to draw the fouls where free kicks can lead to a goalscoring opportunity. As I said in a diffent thread, both Grealish this season and Song for the last 18 months have had a greater impact upon the game by standing up.
So consistent fouling is allowed in some circumstances?
Righto.
Then you say he should run at opposition defenders to draw fouls... 9/10 times Williams is scythed down. It's on the referee to manage that, not the player.
It is upto the referee to manage the game, by applying the laws consistently for all players, regardless of their size or physique. I realise that some on here do not believe that Williams gets a fair crack of the whip and others believe he goes down to easily. Pays your money.. .
All of us who have played football at any level know it. Small skillful player - foul him. I recall I hated playing against small fast talented ones. It was almost as if they had a super power, in, mug you off, out. So yes instead of focusing on the ball, I focused on them.
As I wrote, the Valley Pass lads are very onto this issue of collective targetting of a player.
Terry Smith has another, slightly more controversial view. He thinks we as a team dont “protect” our individual players enough. By this he means a group of players getting in the faces of both the ref and opposing players when someone like Williams is targeted. I think he suggested that this might be a role assigned to McGeady!
Interesting debate this. A good read. Regardless of the merits and behaviours of individual players, the one thing that I’d say is that the ignoring by professional referees of the ritual team fouling (such as was conducted by Derby against Gallagher and against Williams by several others) is beyond belief. It’s like some of the more obvious time wasting tactics. If they are obvious to Joe Season-Ticket Holder, why aren’t they obvious to, and acted upon, by professionals who have been trained to referee the game? I just don’t get it.
Yes Williams should perhaps stay on his feet more but since he's returned how many more set pieces have we been winning?
Take Barnsley for instance, we must have had about four free-kicks in the first 30mins simply because they couldnt cope with him, resulting in us scoring from one
It also helps slow the game down and is one area the opposition was able to hurt us during our injury period because they'd win the ball back without fouling, we'd then be the ones commiting the fouls to allow them chances to get the ball into the box
The rotational foul approach has hit Williams and Oztumer this season. As others have said it is an obvious tactic to the fans so why not officials?
What would be wrong with, for example, after the third clear foul on one player, the ref calling the captain over and explaining the next ‘tactical’ foul will lead to a yellow card, even if it is the player’s first foul? To me that would be strong officiating and would make a clear signal to the team and management that it won’t be tolerated and would mean the creative players will play the game with less fear of their ankles being taken every time they get the ball.
Bang on the money sirjohn and the pleas for clemency after a first foul should cut no ice if a player had been taken out. Get the offender straight in the book 😈
Williams is continuously fouled, but he often goes down very easily and then rolls around in agony, before jumping up and playing on, more often than not.
He is basically making himself a target.
Yes, the referees could give greater protection to the more skilful players, but having said that they get more protection than they have ever had.
30 years ago Williams would have done well to finish a game.
Agree with this. But not sure if he is going down and staying down because he is getting fouled so much and the opposition players are not getting the bookings they should. Or he is getting a kicking from the opposition as a consequence of him going down too easily. Either way, I wish it would stop and any associated injury!
People who say Messi shows there is a solution maybe are highlighting another issue with refs. Messi's status means refs understand they have a responsibility to protect him.
The rotational foul approach has hit Williams and Oztumer this season. As others have said it is an obvious tactic to the fans so why not officials?
What would be wrong with, for example, after the third clear foul on one player, the ref calling the captain over and explaining the next ‘tactical’ foul will lead to a yellow card, even if it is the player’s first foul?
To me that would be strong officiating and would make a clear signal to the team and management that it won’t be tolerated and would mean the creative players will play the game with less fear of their ankles being taken every time they get the ball.
Peter Gage emphasised the issue ........ "the Laws of the Game do not allow refs to take cumulative action in some circumstances."
Isn't that the problem?
The referee can only caution a player according to the severity of the foul .... and not otherwise punish an individual for collective team offences.
I fully agree with those who say there is a need to stamp out calculated team rotational fouls targeting a specific opponent. But until it is addressed, the referee can only take action according to official advice regarding interpretation of the Laws of the Game.
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Mind you he was talking about Charlton in the early to mid seventies.
People are asking why refs do not recognise this and take action. I am fairly sure they are allowed to by warning the team captain, no? If not, @billysboots has pointed out the remedy that exists in rugby. Don't you think that is worth considering, and more constructive than suggesting Williams is a coward?
FWIW the one with a diving issue is Hemed. I want him to prove himself and do well, but he needs to cut that bit out.
He is basically making himself a target.
Yes, the referees could give greater protection to the more skilful players, but having said that they get more protection than they have ever had.
30 years ago Williams would have done well to finish a game.
The current Laws of the Game, as others have pointed out, do not allow for an opponent to be cautioned for the cumulative actions of the team as a whole (unless of course that foul alone is worthy of a caution).
I guess we are going to disagree on Williams (that's fine by me). To me he goes down far too easily, because he doesn't appear to have an appitite to compete in the physical side of the game. All opponents attempt to identify the weaknesses of all opponents (slow movement, failure to mark players etc etc) and play upon those weaknesses. It is natural therefore to foul players like Williams by a number of different opponents and providing no individual foul is deemed to be a caution, then the ref cannot take any actions, other than award a free kick. It is frustrating, I know, but that is the reality of the current Laws of the Game.
Why do you think that a player with the natural skills of Williams has not fulfilled his full potential and indeed was only playing at league one level last season (with us). Is the full blame to be put at the feet of referees?
2020hrs here now - enjoy the rest of your evening. I shall be at the game tomorrow.
Thinking about it, I would say Oztumer draws the same kind of fouls, in the same kind of positions. I would imagine that if he starts to have more of an influence on games, he will suffer from the same collective attacks that Williams gets.
So therefore Williams has to find a solution if he is to provide a greater impact upon the game than he currently does. Maybe releasing the ball earlier in the negative two thirds of the pitch and conversely running at opposing defences in the top third to draw the fouls where free kicks can lead to a goalscoring opportunity. As I said in a diffent thread, both Grealish this season and Song for the last 18 months have had a greater impact upon the game by standing up.
He's purposely looking for the fouls.
As Peter Gage said if he passed the ball earlier he wouldn't get kicked as much.
Williams style reminds me a little of Rugby League players, who burst forward a few yards knowing they will get tackled and then they have to pass the ball between their legs to a colleague.
Don't get to the root of the problem of “team fouling” blame the person getting fouled , unbelievable.
I would add this is not just a “Williams” problem its a football problem, happens to many players who are comfortable on the ball and who take players on.
Righto.
Then you say he should run at opposition defenders to draw fouls... 9/10 times Williams is scythed down. It's on the referee to manage that, not the player.
I definitely feel he draws a lot of fouls, but sometimes makes the most of it. If it was an opposition player doing it, I'd probably be annoyed. But it's not, and it's winning us free kicks in good positions.
I haven't seen it mentioned but Jonny was caught by Josh Cullen in a 3 man pile up and still there were calls for a foul !
Jonny Williams should receive the ball further forward where he can commit defenders on the edge of the area. Getting fouls on the half way line rarely lead to anything. ( Other than a booking )
Terry Smith has another, slightly more controversial view. He thinks we as a team dont “protect” our individual players enough. By this he means a group of players getting in the faces of both the ref and opposing players when someone like Williams is targeted. I think he suggested that this might be a role assigned to McGeady!
Take Barnsley for instance, we must have had about four free-kicks in the first 30mins simply because they couldnt cope with him, resulting in us scoring from one
It also helps slow the game down and is one area the opposition was able to hurt us during our injury period because they'd win the ball back without fouling, we'd then be the ones commiting the fouls to allow them chances to get the ball into the box
To me that would be strong officiating and would make a clear signal to the team and management that it won’t be tolerated and would mean the creative players will play the game with less fear of their ankles being taken every time they get the ball.
Peter Gage emphasised the issue ........ "the Laws of the Game do not allow refs to take cumulative action in some circumstances."
Isn't that the problem?
The referee can only caution a player according to the severity of the foul .... and not otherwise punish an individual for collective team offences.
I fully agree with those who say there is a need to stamp out calculated team rotational fouls targeting a specific opponent.
But until it is addressed, the referee can only take action according to official advice regarding interpretation of the Laws of the Game.