As I wrote, the Valley Pass lads are very onto this issue of collective targetting of a player.
Terry Smith has another, slightly more controversial view. He thinks we as a team dont “protect” our individual players enough. By this he means a group of players getting in the faces of both the ref and opposing players when someone like Williams is targeted. I think he suggested that this might be a role assigned to McGeady!
As fantastic a job as Terry and Greg do on Valley Pass, I do find think you have to be careful when they (especially Tel) discuss issues around our players being fouled and referee decisions. They very much have a Charlton bias, and those subjected to the Blackburn commentary first half today can only attest to how different opposition fans see things.
Not saying he is wrong though. I wonder if our coaching staff would have stats on this sort of thing?
As I wrote, the Valley Pass lads are very onto this issue of collective targetting of a player.
Terry Smith has another, slightly more controversial view. He thinks we as a team dont “protect” our individual players enough. By this he means a group of players getting in the faces of both the ref and opposing players when someone like Williams is targeted. I think he suggested that this might be a role assigned to McGeady!
As fantastic a job as Terry and Greg do on Valley Pass, I do find think you have to be careful when they (especially Tel) discuss issues around our players being fouled and referee decisions.
They very much have a Charlton bias, and those subjected to the Blackburn commentary first half today can only attest to how different opposition fans see things.
Not saying he is wrong though. I wonder if our coaching staff would have stats on this sort of thing?
The Blackburn commentators were just as biased for their team ... unsurprisingly... plus they were shit
As I wrote, the Valley Pass lads are very onto this issue of collective targetting of a player.
Terry Smith has another, slightly more controversial view. He thinks we as a team dont “protect” our individual players enough. By this he means a group of players getting in the faces of both the ref and opposing players when someone like Williams is targeted. I think he suggested that this might be a role assigned to McGeady!
As fantastic a job as Terry and Greg do on Valley Pass, I do find think you have to be careful when they (especially Tel) discuss issues around our players being fouled and referee decisions.
They very much have a Charlton bias, and those subjected to the Blackburn commentary first half today can only attest to how different opposition fans see things.
Not saying he is wrong though. I wonder if our coaching staff would have stats on this sort of thing?
The Blackburn commentators were just as biased for their team ... unsurprisingly... plus they were shit
I mean that is exactly my point. Either way I put them on mute in the end. Was so happy to have Terry and Greg back for the second half.
remember the tip off i had that field was out for the season - hope not but...
Well seeing he was on the bench against Barnsley and Stoke...
I know but I didn’t make it up and there is clearly an ongoing re occurring issue - as I say, hope I’m wrong
Behave. You said he was out for the season and returning to West Brom with a terminated loan. Don't try and claim him getting injured again as being ITK.
no i didn't - i said he was out for the season and once you've checked it you can apologise and promise to check your facts before posting
But he wasn’t out for the season when you said it. He was on the subs bench last week
I refer you to my answer to Scoham above - as I said at the time’ I’d be surprised if my source was wrong so that could be the explanation - or he could just have been wrong - who cares I just hope he is ok to play soon
Of course it was wrong. Unless of course your source is a specialist who recommended Field is out for the season but the medical teams at West Brom and Charlton ignore them.
Don’t know the origin of the info but I know who told the person who told me so anything’s possible - no of course about it
So you're saying that we had a player on the bench who was out for the season and had no chance of ever playing? Despite the fact that we've fielded incomplete benches before. Sorry but that makes no sense
no, that doesn't make sense and is not what i'm saying
Now Doucher, be the big man and say nothing about Field as everyone now knows you were right
remember the tip off i had that field was out for the season - hope not but...
Well seeing he was on the bench against Barnsley and Stoke...
I know but I didn’t make it up and there is clearly an ongoing re occurring issue - as I say, hope I’m wrong
Behave. You said he was out for the season and returning to West Brom with a terminated loan. Don't try and claim him getting injured again as being ITK.
no i didn't - i said he was out for the season and once you've checked it you can apologise and promise to check your facts before posting
But he wasn’t out for the season when you said it. He was on the subs bench last week
I refer you to my answer to Scoham above - as I said at the time’ I’d be surprised if my source was wrong so that could be the explanation - or he could just have been wrong - who cares I just hope he is ok to play soon
Of course it was wrong. Unless of course your source is a specialist who recommended Field is out for the season but the medical teams at West Brom and Charlton ignore them.
Don’t know the origin of the info but I know who told the person who told me so anything’s possible - no of course about it
So you're saying that we had a player on the bench who was out for the season and had no chance of ever playing? Despite the fact that we've fielded incomplete benches before. Sorry but that makes no sense
no, that doesn't make sense and is not what i'm saying
Now Doucher, be the big man and say nothing about Field as everyone now knows you were right
Williams out after picking up a knock in training . Were his teammates all taking turns to foul him?
Made of biscuits. Although tbh I wouldn't be surprised if it's mental health issues.
What, based on watching a Netflix series?
Yes mainly, as it actually showed he has mental health issues/perhaps depression. He was sent to see some mental health expert, I can't remember their job title. Plus Bowyer describing him as fragile.
Williams out after picking up a knock in training . Were his teammates all taking turns to foul him?
Made of biscuits. Although tbh I wouldn't be surprised if it's mental health issues.
What, based on watching a Netflix series?
Yes mainly, as it actually showed he has mental health issues/perhaps depression. He was sent to see some mental health expert, I can't remember their job title. Plus Bowyer describing him as fragile.
Well I don't recall the series announcing such a "diagnosis" at all, and I was paying attention because by the time I watched it, he was already a Charlton player. I could be wrong, but I hope you are 100% sure, as otherwise you are doing him and the club a disservice by writing such a thing.
I certainly recall a dejected and lonely looking figure but that isnt the same thing at all.
Williams out after picking up a knock in training . Were his teammates all taking turns to foul him?
Made of biscuits. Although tbh I wouldn't be surprised if it's mental health issues.
What, based on watching a Netflix series?
Yes mainly, as it actually showed he has mental health issues/perhaps depression. He was sent to see some mental health expert, I can't remember their job title. Plus Bowyer describing him as fragile.
I think the fragile reference is to his injury record. He is a class player but made of glass.
Williams out after picking up a knock in training . Were his teammates all taking turns to foul him?
Made of biscuits. Although tbh I wouldn't be surprised if it's mental health issues.
What, based on watching a Netflix series?
Yes mainly, as it actually showed he has mental health issues/perhaps depression. He was sent to see some mental health expert, I can't remember their job title. Plus Bowyer describing him as fragile.
Well I don't recall the series announcing such a "diagnosis" at all, and I was paying attention because by the time I watched it, he was already a Charlton player. I could be wrong, but I hope you are 100% sure, as otherwise you are doing him and the club a disservice by writing such a thing.
I certainly recall a dejected and lonely looking figure but that isnt the same thing at all.
And also, Depression can be episodic and chronic, and take many forms.
CE, I don't think you meant it maliciously, but to assume it's mental illness doesn't really help. It could be. And it very well could not be. But let him dictate the terms on which he discloses that.
I say this with love and respect, and because I think you would understand this.
There is a very well reviewed modern football novel, which I really enjoyed , called A Natural by Ross Raisin. Among other things, it depicts a player who, suffering from long term injury and loss of form, retreats into himself, unable to communicate effectively with his wife and family, and spending hours alone with his laptop. He joins the fans' internet forum and assumes the identity of a fan. This fake profile is strident in criticising the player (himself) with comments of the "his knees are gone" type, and worse.
When I read it I was struck by how very plausible that scenario is. But in the context of the discussion about JW, here's the thing: the player depicted, a defender and club captain/legend, calls to mind a cross betwen Jacko and Jason Pearce. The point being that mental health issues can affect anyone, especially because of injuries - and it may happen to the last person the fans imagine, based on their image of the player from on-field performance and personality.
Regarding the Field one, something is right throughout the whole process of him being back at West Brom for his treatment.
His initial injury meant he went back to West Brom, just as he was about to be sent back to us, he twisted his knee and it pushed him back again. They got him ‘ready’ and he even played in games behind closed doors for West Brom before again being sent back to us. He trains with the first team here and is on the bench for two games. Then he’s got a recurring problem with the initial injury and is now out for the season.
Seems to me as though he didn’t have surgery for the initial problem when he probably ought to have done. He’s then gone through rehab to make it better but it’s not able to get to a point where it breaks down. The damage requires surgery.
People can say what they wish, but his treatment was in West Brom and nothing to do with us. Just sums up our season really.
If he's twisted his ankle he'll be out for a few weeks minimum, let's hope it's only minor although knowing JW's luck it'll be a few months out
Certainly depends on the severity. A minor ankle roll, a week could be fine. A proper balloon ankle, likely weeks til he's able to start strength and conditioning up again.
You do wonder if it's something we're doing, or the players we're signing. Especially when you see this from the Sheffield United press conference today
Injury Update 👇
“We have a full squad to choose from which is a fantastic position to be in.
It speaks volume of the group that they’re fit, healthy and raring to go”
There is a very well reviewed modern football novel, which I really enjoyed , called A Natural by Ross Raisin. Among other things, it depicts a player who, suffering from long term injury and loss of form, retreats into himself, unable to communicate effectively with his wife and family, and spending hours alone with his laptop. He joins the fans' internet forum and assumes the identity of a fan. This fake profile is strident in criticising the player (himself) with comments of the "his knees are gone" type, and worse.
When I read it I was struck by how very plausible that scenario is. But in the context of the discussion about JW, here's the thing: the player depicted, a defender and club captain/legend, calls to mind a cross betwen Jacko and Jason Pearce. The point being that mental health issues can affect anyone, especially because of injuries - and it may happen to the last person the fans imagine, based on their image of the player from on-field performance and personality.
Having so many injury problems, losing two years of his career, now potentially losing his football career it would not surprise me if Page suffered from depression, if not he must be incredibly mentally resilient.
Regarding the Field one, something is right throughout the whole process of him being back at West Brom for his treatment.
His initial injury meant he went back to West Brom, just as he was about to be sent back to us, he twisted his knee and it pushed him back again. They got him ‘ready’ and he even played in games behind closed doors for West Brom before again being sent back to us. He trains with the first team here and is on the bench for two games. Then he’s got a recurring problem with the initial injury and is now out for the season.
Seems to me as though he didn’t have surgery for the initial problem when he probably ought to have done. He’s then gone through rehab to make it better but it’s not able to get to a point where it breaks down. The damage requires surgery.
People can say what they wish, but his treatment was in West Brom and nothing to do with us. Just sums up our season really.
I remember we did something similar with Kashi and his Achilles. We tried to prevent surgery by using rest and rehab, but when he came back he broke down and had to have the surgery, which meant him missing a year.
Sage I know you do this stuff for a living, but the little I know about it, it seems these decisions come down to a razor's edge. When you get it right, a player is out for 2-3 months instead of a year (for example), when you get it wrong you waste the 2-3 months and end up losing a player for a net 16 months (timelines not exact, just examples).
Even in our squad, some players hardly get injured. It is more likely down to us having more injury prone ones than others and bad luck. Cullen and Taylor I would put down to the latter.
Even in our squad, some players hardly get injured. It is more likely down to us having more injury prone ones than others and bad luck. Cullen and Taylor I would put down to the latter.
Or you could say, perhaps, some players hardly get injured ...... but then they eventually do pick up a serious injury and, for one reason or another, they struggle to get fit again quickly.
Players that pick up a serious injury early to mid-season are no doubt are under pressure to be fit again as soon as practicable. They go through an intense rehabilitation programme, designed to facilitate recovery.
Personally, not being an expert , I wonder is the body always truly given sufficient time to heal ? Physical recovery surely varies from player to player, rather than the schedule being a 'one size fits all' ?
And then there's question of loss of prime fitness after a long period out injured. Often the initial injury can be superficially healed but there is naturally muscular weakness around it - and the body tries to compensate, causing strain and problems, resulting in fresh injuries before the player can be match fit.
This season alone, we had been told that Lyle Taylor was due to be back in 1st team contention by early November - but "had a setback" and it was to be a further month before he was deemed fit enough to take a place in the 1st team squad. Taylor had missed 14 League matches. He had to be "managed" and his "minutes limited". And then 3 weeks later, picked up a different injury and was missing for another month.
Jonny Williams was another missing with serious injury that we were told had "had a setback", which delayed his re-introduction to the !st team squad. And even "the Machine" himself, Cullen ....... we were told, had had a setback and it was to be a couple of weeks later before he made a return. He still strikes me, a month later, as not fully match fit.
And as for "injury prone", you've only got to look at poor old Forster-Caskey ....... played virtually every match for Charlton since signing and a key member of the 1st team at 25. Pre-season training and a freak injury, when his studs got caught in the turf when turning, tore his ACL yet worked tremendously hard to make a sub appearance in one of the last League games of the season. Yet 9 months later, still looks a shadow of the player he was 18 months ago.
Anyway, I'm sure someone like Sage will be able to say something along these lines with considerably fewer words.
I’m Williams’ biggest fan, but even I’m starting to question his squad value going forward on budget wise whether we are getting enough bang for our buck. Every time he gets injured we are paying a non-performing ‘asset’, but additionally it provides an ongoing negative backdrop every time he is out as we know the ability we are missing out on. Real tough one for the summer this.
As for Field, all Lifers have known the true situation for many weeks thanks to our man in the know...
I’m Williams’ biggest fan, but even I’m starting to question his squad value going forward on budget wise whether we are getting enough bang for our buck. Or only every time he gets injured are we paying a non-performing ‘asset’, but additionally it provides an ongoing negative backdrop every time he is out as we know the ability we are missing out on. Real tough one for the summer this.
I believe the issue with Williams is in the way he plays ........ intense running with the ball in tight spaces, almost asking to clobbered; we even witness opponents systematically set about him, each player taking him out by rotation.
Of course, he's going to suffer injury. And he does. He gets battered. It's the only way to stop him.
When he plays we're generally a better defensive unit because he takes pressure off our backline; he's a vital outlet, holding possession, providing creativity, winning free kicks deep in enemy territory. And while he doesn't always feature in the assist stats, we can see he invariably plays a key role in our creation of goal scoring chances.
When he doesn't play, his absence is conspicuous and we often look a team devoid of attacking threat. Oztumer is the nearest player in style - but then even he himself was out for a lengthy period, unfortunately at much the same time as Williams' serious injury.
This latest injury to Williams was supposedly a "freak incident", with Bonne falling on top of him in a training situation - twisted ankle, out for 2 weeks so Bowyer tells us.
Bows tells the world that Williams is "fragile" and only plays him 60 minutes one game, then 30 minutes as sub the next, but even so ..... he's probably made a similar number of appearances to Lyle Taylor so far this season.
Should we keep him in the summer? ..... me, I definitely think so. He's a vital member of the squad, having abilities that make him stand out; he fits in, he's bought into the "togetherness" of the squad. Unless we can truly find a superior replacement for the same wages, who is guaranteed to play more matches than Williams. But remember, there are no guarantees in football.
Even in our squad, some players hardly get injured. It is more likely down to us having more injury prone ones than others and bad luck. Cullen and Taylor I would put down to the latter.
Or you could say, perhaps, some players hardly get injured ...... but then they eventually do pick up a serious injury and, for one reason or another, they struggle to get fit again quickly.
Players that pick up a serious injury early to mid-season are no doubt are under pressure to be fit again as soon as practicable. They go through an intense rehabilitation programme, designed to facilitate recovery.
Personally, not being an expert , I wonder is the body always truly given sufficient time to heal ? Physical recovery surely varies from player to player, rather than the schedule being a 'one size fits all' ?
And then there's question of loss of prime fitness after a long period out injured. Often the initial injury can be superficially healed but there is naturally muscular weakness around it - and the body tries to compensate, causing strain and problems, resulting in fresh injuries before the player can be match fit.
This season alone, we had been told that Lyle Taylor was due to be back in 1st team contention by early November - but "had a setback" and it was to be a further month before he was deemed fit enough to take a place in the 1st team squad. Taylor had missed 14 League matches. He had to be "managed" and his "minutes limited". And then 3 weeks later, picked up a different injury and was missing for another month.
Jonny Williams was another missing with serious injury that we were told had "had a setback", which delayed his re-introduction to the !st team squad. And even "the Machine" himself, Cullen ....... we were told, had had a setback and it was to be a couple of weeks later before he made a return. He still strikes me, a month later, as not fully match fit.
And as for "injury prone", you've only got to look at poor old Forster-Caskey ....... played virtually every match for Charlton since signing and a key member of the 1st team at 25. Pre-season training and a freak injury, when his studs got caught in the turf when turning, tore his ACL yet worked tremendously hard to make a sub appearance in one of the last League games of the season. Yet 9 months later, still looks a shadow of the player he was 18 months ago.
Anyway, I'm sure someone like Sage will be able to say something along these lines with considerably fewer words.
Very well put, no need to put yourself down at the end. I’m just as likely to use many words to describe situations at the club.
People know I am supportive and defensive of the medical team and the players and their recoveries on injuries. But I still have a lot of concerns too. Mainly about how are these players going to get back to the level they once were at, physically and mentally. It can destroy them. You made an excellent point on Forster-Caskey still being a shadow of the player he was 18 months ago. You’re right, because he was such a key player to us just when he so tragically ripped his knee to pieces. The injury at the time hurt him so bad mentally and it takes a lot to come back from. I believe he has enough belief in himself to know he can get back to the level of consistency in performance with continued hard work. I also hope that’s here at Charlton.
My biggest worry of them all is Lewis Page. I don’t think it can really be described and understood just how much this time in his career his impacted him. His mental well-being is likely to be on the floor, his belief in himself shot to pieces, and that’s without the sustained damage that he has suffered physically from new injury break down after the other. I know personally that we have an excellent sport psychologist at the club, I hope there have been conversations and he has the support he needs to get through this extremely tough period. He’ll get through it, but even at such a young age, there will be question marks over whether he will ever get back to the levels he was capable of producing and did produce for us.
With the new build of training ground and the bottom floor being dedicated to sports science, gym, recovery, rehabilitation, strength and conditioning, the whole medical side, it will help us enormously. I personally can’t wait. It will help us look after and manage players like Williams better. He is so important to us and yes, he might miss a third of the season, but he’s such a talented player that makes us a far better team that I would wholeheartedly rather have him at the club than not.
There is of course a lot that can be improved and will be. But we must also remember that there are a lot of very good and positive things being done to support our players, their injuries, prevention, and overall conditioning.
For me, Williams is our only player who could start in a mid-Premiership side. Possibly Phillips, Sarr and Taylor. Even our better loanees would only be bench at best with current experience.
Comments
They very much have a Charlton bias, and those subjected to the Blackburn commentary first half today can only attest to how different opposition fans see things.
Not saying he is wrong though. I wonder if our coaching staff would have stats on this sort of thing?
He was sent to see some mental health expert, I can't remember their job title.
Plus Bowyer describing him as fragile.
I certainly recall a dejected and lonely looking figure but that isnt the same thing at all.
I think the fragile reference is to his injury record. He is a class player but made of glass.
CE, I don't think you meant it maliciously, but to assume it's mental illness doesn't really help. It could be. And it very well could not be. But let him dictate the terms on which he discloses that.
I say this with love and respect, and because I think you would understand this.
When I read it I was struck by how very plausible that scenario is. But in the context of the discussion about JW, here's the thing: the player depicted, a defender and club captain/legend, calls to mind a cross betwen Jacko and Jason Pearce. The point being that mental health issues can affect anyone, especially because of injuries - and it may happen to the last person the fans imagine, based on their image of the player from on-field performance and personality.
His initial injury meant he went back to West Brom, just as he was about to be sent back to us, he twisted his knee and it pushed him back again. They got him ‘ready’ and he even played in games behind closed doors for West Brom before again being sent back to us. He trains with the first team here and is on the bench for two games. Then he’s got a recurring problem with the initial injury and is now out for the season.
Seems to me as though he didn’t have surgery for the initial problem when he probably ought to have done. He’s then gone through rehab to make it better but it’s not able to get to a point where it breaks down. The damage requires surgery.
People can say what they wish, but his treatment was in West Brom and nothing to do with us. Just sums up our season really.
Sage I know you do this stuff for a living, but the little I know about it, it seems these decisions come down to a razor's edge. When you get it right, a player is out for 2-3 months instead of a year (for example), when you get it wrong you waste the 2-3 months and end up losing a player for a net 16 months (timelines not exact, just examples).
Players that pick up a serious injury early to mid-season are no doubt are under pressure to be fit again as soon as practicable.
They go through an intense rehabilitation programme, designed to facilitate recovery.
Personally, not being an expert
Physical recovery surely varies from player to player, rather than the schedule being a 'one size fits all' ?
And then there's question of loss of prime fitness after a long period out injured.
Often the initial injury can be superficially healed but there is naturally muscular weakness around it - and the body tries to compensate, causing strain and problems, resulting in fresh injuries before the player can be match fit.
This season alone, we had been told that Lyle Taylor was due to be back in 1st team contention by early November - but "had a setback"
and it was to be a further month before he was deemed fit enough to take a place in the 1st team squad. Taylor had missed 14 League matches. He had to be "managed" and his "minutes limited". And then 3 weeks later, picked up a different injury and was missing for another month.
Jonny Williams was another missing with serious injury that we were told had "had a setback", which delayed his re-introduction to the !st team squad. And even "the Machine" himself, Cullen ....... we were told, had had a setback and it was to be a couple of weeks later before he made a return. He still strikes me, a month later, as not fully match fit.
And as for "injury prone", you've only got to look at poor old Forster-Caskey ....... played virtually every match for Charlton since signing and a key member of the 1st team at 25. Pre-season training and a freak injury, when his studs got caught in the turf when turning, tore his ACL yet worked tremendously hard to make a sub appearance in one of the last League games of the season. Yet 9 months later, still looks a shadow of the player he was 18 months ago.
Anyway, I'm sure someone like Sage will be able to say something along these lines with considerably fewer words.
As for Field, all Lifers have known the true situation for many weeks thanks to our man in the know...
Of course, he's going to suffer injury. And he does. He gets battered. It's the only way to stop him.
When he plays we're generally a better defensive unit because he takes pressure off our backline; he's a vital outlet, holding possession, providing creativity, winning free kicks deep in enemy territory. And while he doesn't always feature in the assist stats, we can see he invariably plays a key role in our creation of goal scoring chances.
When he doesn't play, his absence is conspicuous and we often look a team devoid of attacking threat. Oztumer is the nearest player in style - but then even he himself was out for a lengthy period, unfortunately at much the same time as Williams' serious injury.
This latest injury to Williams was supposedly a "freak incident", with Bonne falling on top of him in a training situation - twisted ankle, out for 2 weeks so Bowyer tells us.
Bows tells the world that Williams is "fragile" and only plays him 60 minutes one game, then 30 minutes as sub the next,
but even so ..... he's probably made a similar number of appearances to Lyle Taylor so far this season.
Should we keep him in the summer? ..... me, I definitely think so. He's a vital member of the squad, having abilities that make him stand out; he fits in, he's bought into the "togetherness" of the squad. Unless we can truly find a superior replacement for the same wages, who is guaranteed to play more matches than Williams. But remember, there are no guarantees in football.
People know I am supportive and defensive of the medical team and the players and their recoveries on injuries. But I still have a lot of concerns too. Mainly about how are these players going to get back to the level they once were at, physically and mentally. It can destroy them. You made an excellent point on Forster-Caskey still being a shadow of the player he was 18 months ago. You’re right, because he was such a key player to us just when he so tragically ripped his knee to pieces. The injury at the time hurt him so bad mentally and it takes a lot to come back from. I believe he has enough belief in himself to know he can get back to the level of consistency in performance with continued hard work. I also hope that’s here at Charlton.
My biggest worry of them all is Lewis Page. I don’t think it can really be described and understood just how much this time in his career his impacted him. His mental well-being is likely to be on the floor, his belief in himself shot to pieces, and that’s without the sustained damage that he has suffered physically from new injury break down after the other. I know personally that we have an excellent sport psychologist at the club, I hope there have been conversations and he has the support he needs to get through this extremely tough period. He’ll get through it, but even at such a young age, there will be question marks over whether he will ever get back to the levels he was capable of producing and did produce for us.
With the new build of training ground and the bottom floor being dedicated to sports science, gym, recovery, rehabilitation, strength and conditioning, the whole medical side, it will help us enormously. I personally can’t wait. It will help us look after and manage players like Williams better. He is so important to us and yes, he might miss a third of the season, but he’s such a talented player that makes us a far better team that I would wholeheartedly rather have him at the club than not.
There is of course a lot that can be improved and will be. But we must also remember that there are a lot of very good and positive things being done to support our players, their injuries, prevention, and overall conditioning.