Thanks for all the updates and comments. Very informative. Still unclear to me why the deal was structured so as to give ESI a fair crack at the January transfer window and deal with the DD etc of other parts of the club and yet here we are six days from the end of the window with the team having needed reinforcements for weeks and weeks and sitting in a precarious league position and yet all we have to show for all this talk and ambition is the loan of Green from Aston Villa and the squad is now weaker than when they bought the club. What I’ve read gives me some encouragement but I will only feel confident once some of this talk is translated into action. Losing our Championship status surely cannot be an option.
Because being at the reins back then gave them the opportunity to negotiate in the first place, through this month. It's easy, in hindsight, to say the above but maybe their intentions were to sign 4 or 5 players (theres still time to sign a couple) and win every game, but as they've said, they won't pay out more than a player is worth, and that has come from Bowyer himself
Thanks for all the updates and comments. Very informative. Still unclear to me why the deal was structured so as to give ESI a fair crack at the January transfer window and deal with the DD etc of other parts of the club and yet here we are six days from the end of the window with the team having needed reinforcements for weeks and weeks and sitting in a precarious league position and yet all we have to show for all this talk and ambition is the loan of Green from Aston Villa and the squad is now weaker than when they bought the club. What I’ve read gives me some encouragement but I will only feel confident once some of this talk is translated into action. Losing our Championship status surely cannot be an option.
Because being at the reins back then gave them the opportunity to negotiate in the first place, through this month. It's easy, in hindsight, to say the above but maybe their intentions were to sign 4 or 5 players (theres still time to sign a couple) and win every game, but as they've said, they won't pay out more than a player is worth, and that has come from Bowyer himself
Then why not target the players that they feel very confident can yield a return going forward and start the rebuilding of the team with better players now, ready for next season and able to make as certain as it can be that we won’t be starting next season in league one.
Thanks for all the updates and comments. Very informative. Still unclear to me why the deal was structured so as to give ESI a fair crack at the January transfer window and deal with the DD etc of other parts of the club and yet here we are six days from the end of the window with the team having needed reinforcements for weeks and weeks and sitting in a precarious league position and yet all we have to show for all this talk and ambition is the loan of Green from Aston Villa and the squad is now weaker than when they bought the club. What I’ve read gives me some encouragement but I will only feel confident once some of this talk is translated into action. Losing our Championship status surely cannot be an option.
Because being at the reins back then gave them the opportunity to negotiate in the first place, through this month. It's easy, in hindsight, to say the above but maybe their intentions were to sign 4 or 5 players (theres still time to sign a couple) and win every game, but as they've said, they won't pay out more than a player is worth, and that has come from Bowyer himself
Then why not target the players that they feel very confident can yield a return going forward and start the rebuilding of the team with better players now, ready for next season and able to make as certain as it can be that we won’t be starting next season in league one.
Maybe they (including Bowyer and Gallen) don't feel there's anyone who fits that description at this precise moment. I would love to see a couple of signings come in over the next week, but understand we might need to wait and hope for the best using players we've already got, returning from injuries. But imo, there's only one person to blame for this predicament and that's RD and the way he neglected the Club for so long.
When we turn to squad matters...did anyone ask about the circumstances of Gallagher’s recall?
Interesting comment from MS about how asking prices drop significantly at the end of the window. Makes absolute sense, but I’ve never heard it actually articulated by someone with practical experience.
Then we get the likes of Josh Parker.
Not if the goals for the window’s activity (both selling and buying) have been planned and agreed in advance by all relevant members of the management.
That does not eliminate the risk element, but it makes the likelihood of a decent outcome soooo much higher.
Patently that did not happen 12 months ago. The sale of Grant - for a pittance - clearly blindsided Bow and co. As did the recall of Gallagher but that clearly was not the fault of the management team, who could not reasonably have planned for it, given the signals from Chelsea’s relevant people in December.
Surely that planning would include a timeline to maximise the value of our investment in new players? We’ve played 5 matches since the window opened and won 0 of them.
Well, one point in their defence is this: When the window opened they had no reason to plan that they would lose Gallagher and thus need to deal with a massive great hole our midfield, while at the same time they believed that both Cullen and JFC would be available again during the window. I was a bit mystified at the time by choosing to play Fulham on 22nd, but you could arguably now say that the decision was justified.
Anyway it seems none of this was asked about, which I find surprising, but never mind, lots of good stuff, more than we got in 6 years of the RD regime.
Is there a management structure flowchart available?
I'm neither in the know or very clued up, but it'd be nice to know where all these new personalities sit within the company and what their duties entail. Also are there unfilled positions? (Not for me, asking for a friend).
Thanks for all the updates and particularly to whoever in CAST who burnt the midnight oil to get the summary of the meeting out this morning.
It is all very encouraging. What Matt Southall says about transfer fees coming down towards the end of the window makes perfect sense, particularly where players are out of contract in the summer and other potential buyers have fallen away. I remember Richard Murray making that point many years ago during the Curbs era. The fear of FFP points penalties and fines must also be inhibiting a number of Championship clubs from paying the sort of exorbitant fess and wages that they have done in the past.
As to sustainability, 'The Price of Football' podcast is quite interesting on the economics of the Championship. According to Kieran Maguire, the average wage for a Championship player in a 25 man squad across all 24 teams is around £800,000. Whilst there is obviously a huge divergence between (1) clubs currently in receipt of parachute payments and the bigger clubs like Leeds and Forest, on the one hand and (2) smaller outfits like Millwall, Luton and Barnsley, on the other, the sustainable aggregated figure should be around £250,000 per player if clubs were looking to break even.
Stoke (who are in their last year of parachute payments) have lost £84million in the last two years, including their relegation season, and the squad that started last season in the Championship cost £115million to assemble. They finished 16th on 55 points and would have been 17th but for Birmingham's 9 point penalty. Their owners, Bet365 (who take bets equal to 50% of the UK's total NHS budget each year) don't feel that FFP should apply to them and have said that they will explore whatever means are available to protect the club. On the basis that they are still carrying most of their expensive players (albeit supplemented with some cheaper out of contract signings like Cousins and Gregory last summer), they will presumably be facing a points deduction down the line.
Is there a management structure flowchart available?
I'm neither in the know or very clued up, but it'd be nice to know where all these new personalities sit within the company and what their duties entail. Also are there unfilled positions? (Not for me, asking for a friend).
Bit late to this and sorry to go back to the ownership of the ground. I see from previous posts that ESI own a 99 year lease over the valley but not the freehold over which they have some kind of future option on.
Just to add some thoughts of my own:
- would rather they owned the lot now of course as I guess everyone would. - I still don't really understand the reasoning they have given for not doing so. Still needs DD does not wash for me as any issues in that DD would be pretty fundamental would they not? It is not exactly like you can quickly relocate a football club the way you can with other businesses. - if the leasehold is for a peppercorn as suggested above then fine, but there are plenty of examples of long leaseholds on commercial property at much higher geared rents. I know someone who owns a freehold of a commercial property and picks up over £1m a year on a rent from the leaseholder despite the leasehold being 120 years long AND the lease gives them as freeholder a share in profitability on sale of lease too. Without knowing the terms of the leasehold it is impossible to say how much certainty that gives us as a club. - I have looked on my Nimbus Maps app which is effectively a feed from Land Registry and shows 3x freeholds owned by Charlton Athletic Holdings LTD and one leasehold owned by O2 (will be a mast of theirs). No other leaseholds showing for some reason that I can see. I thought all leaseholds over 7 years had to be registered so odd that it is not.
Just some observations, I am uneasy about club/ground being separated personally but everything else sounds positive and we will see what the next few months/years bring.
If the 'walk' matches the 'talk' all is good and very exciting.
My job combined with recent Charlton history tends to push me towards caution is all!
They apparently own a 99 year Lease on the Valley stadium, via owning CHARLTON Athletic football company, will buy CAFC holdings which owns the freeholds.
That's good enough for me. Maybe we can go back to being football fans!
Hang on a sec Chunes, I thought you were going to bolster up our midfield!
Might I, respectfully suggest, that we all give MS and ESI some space to see what they deliver in terms of new signings until the end of next week, and in terms of the purchase of the whole 'package' that is Charlton Athletic (land, buildings car parks etc) until the summer. MS has already spoken more and been far more public than RD was in 6 years, and MS has only been in charge 3 bloody weeks. Its time we just watched and see what transpires throughout the rest of this season and the early stages of season 20/21. We will see if the training ground works begin in the summer, we will see what happens regarding strengthening the squad in 7 days and we will see if the 6 months to purchase the club happens. I'm looking forward to hearing (away from the buildings and land) what else was said last night, and I'm certainly looking forward to this new era. Its time to sit back and see what unfolds, we have had enough dark days to last as a lifetime, lets just all chill out for at least 6 months and try and enjoy the football!
On a serious note, the total ownership of all things CAFC is rightly a question we need answered, but I am 100% with RedMidland on this, let’s give them the time to get on with the job at hand, and I take them at face value when they said that they needed to get the takeover done for the start of Jan.
It’s understandable that there are reservations until we know Roland is 100% out the picture, but I think that if you take the time to consider that we are being backed by the private sec to one of the ruling families of the UAE, this is big boy s*** for want of a better term.
Not an expert in Emirati culture, but everything I have picked up since they took us over is that it’s important to make any investment/venture a success, and I can’t imagine they would want/nor not have the money to buy RD out completely, and do it with the complete autonomy and freedom of running all things CAFC.
His Excellency means business, and for now, I am just going to enjoy the fact Bowyer has signed a new deal, injured players are coming back, we MAY get some players in, Southall is an engaging & willing communicator, they have a 5 year plan and there is a bit of buzz about the club again.
I just want Duchâtelet out completely, regardless of assurances that ESI own the leasehold. I don’t trust Roland an inch.
Trust shouldn't come into it, if there are legally binding contracts.
Contracts are easily amended and messily ignored, happens every day.
I just can't see ESI getting knocked by RD, which is the context of Arsenetatters' post. If anything, I reckon RD would be the one to get his fingers burnt, out the two
On a serious note, the total ownership of all things CAFC is rightly a question we need answered, but I am 100% with RedMidland on this, let’s give them the time to get on with the job at hand, and I take them at face value when they said that they needed to get the takeover done for the start of Jan.
It’s understandable that there are reservations until we know Roland is 100% out the picture, but I think that if you take the time to consider that we are being backed by the private sec to one of the ruling families of the UAE, this is big boy s*** for want of a better term.
Not an expert in Emirati culture, but everything I have picked up since they took us over is that it’s important to make any investment/venture a success, and I can’t imagine they would want/nor not have the money to buy RD out completely, and do it with the complete autonomy and freedom of running all things CAFC.
His Excellency means business, and for now, I am just going to enjoy the fact Bowyer has signed a new deal, injured players are coming back, we MAY get some players in, Southall is an engaging & willing communicator, they have a 5 year plan and there is a bit of buzz about the club again.
Who knows, they might even have something up their sleeve to leave RD out of pocket, which would be nice
LA did say people could stay overnight at the new training ground but not live there.
On the Valley there are no plans to expand capacity until crowds reach capacity but they are looking at improvements is the dug outs and the millennium suite.
In February and March MS will meet with all the department heads to discuss what needs to be done.
Already had a meeting with the head groundsman in the middle of the pitch.
Curious to see how they can improve the dugouts
They've always been a bit squeezed in, only way I could see them achieving it (if they wanted those proper Premier League bench seats) is by building into the West Stand where I presume fans will lose their Season Tickets
If we go up to the PL, then we'll have to change the dugouts anyway as they don't meet PL requirements - they're too small and unevenly placed
It makes far more sense (if you can afford it) to it when there are spare seats in the Lower West so that relatively few people are affected
When we turn to squad matters...did anyone ask about the circumstances of Gallagher’s recall?
Interesting comment from MS about how asking prices drop significantly at the end of the window. Makes absolute sense, but I’ve never heard it actually articulated by someone with practical experience.
Surely works both ways though?
Prices will only drop if a club has openly said a player can leave and there aren't many takers. As we come to the end of the window the club might lower his asking price or even release him just to get rid of the wage.
But on the other hand, as some clubs become more desperate as it gets to the last few days of January, then the selling clubs can ask for a higher fee and the players ask for higher wages.
Comments
Anyway it seems none of this was asked about, which I find surprising, but never mind, lots of good stuff, more than we got in 6 years of the RD regime.
MS said he and SG are working 20+ hour days.
They could have signed players but the deals wouldn't have been right for the club.
They are confident they will get good players and good value.
Maybe that is all lies or they are naive, I don't know.
I'll decide on 1 February when we can all see whats happened.
I'm neither in the know or very clued up, but it'd be nice to know where all these new personalities sit within the company and what their duties entail. Also are there unfilled positions? (Not for me, asking for a friend).
It is all very encouraging. What Matt Southall says about transfer fees coming down towards the end of the window makes perfect sense, particularly where players are out of contract in the summer and other potential buyers have fallen away. I remember Richard Murray making that point many years ago during the Curbs era. The fear of FFP points penalties and fines must also be inhibiting a number of Championship clubs from paying the sort of exorbitant fess and wages that they have done in the past.
As to sustainability, 'The Price of Football' podcast is quite interesting on the economics of the Championship. According to Kieran Maguire, the average wage for a Championship player in a 25 man squad across all 24 teams is around £800,000. Whilst there is obviously a huge divergence between (1) clubs currently in receipt of parachute payments and the bigger clubs like Leeds and Forest, on the one hand and (2) smaller outfits like Millwall, Luton and Barnsley, on the other, the sustainable aggregated figure should be around £250,000 per player if clubs were looking to break even.
Stoke (who are in their last year of parachute payments) have lost £84million in the last two years, including their relegation season, and the squad that started last season in the Championship cost £115million to assemble. They finished 16th on 55 points and would have been 17th but for Birmingham's 9 point penalty. Their owners, Bet365 (who take bets equal to 50% of the UK's total NHS budget each year) don't feel that FFP should apply to them and have said that they will explore whatever means are available to protect the club. On the basis that they are still carrying most of their expensive players (albeit supplemented with some cheaper out of contract signings like Cousins and Gregory last summer), they will presumably be facing a points deduction down the line.
Bit late to this and sorry to go back to the ownership of the ground. I see from previous posts that ESI own a 99 year lease over the valley but not the freehold over which they have some kind of future option on.
Just to add some thoughts of my own:
- would rather they owned the lot now of course as I guess everyone would.
- I still don't really understand the reasoning they have given for not doing so. Still needs DD does not wash for me as any issues in that DD would be pretty fundamental would they not? It is not exactly like you can quickly relocate a football club the way you can with other businesses.
- if the leasehold is for a peppercorn as suggested above then fine, but there are plenty of examples of long leaseholds on commercial property at much higher geared rents. I know someone who owns a freehold of a commercial property and picks up over £1m a year on a rent from the leaseholder despite the leasehold being 120 years long AND the lease gives them as freeholder a share in profitability on sale of lease too. Without knowing the terms of the leasehold it is impossible to say how much certainty that gives us as a club.
- I have looked on my Nimbus Maps app which is effectively a feed from Land Registry and shows 3x freeholds owned by Charlton Athletic Holdings LTD and one leasehold owned by O2 (will be a mast of theirs). No other leaseholds showing for some reason that I can see. I thought all leaseholds over 7 years had to be registered so odd that it is not.
Just some observations, I am uneasy about club/ground being separated personally but everything else sounds positive and we will see what the next few months/years bring.
If the 'walk' matches the 'talk' all is good and very exciting.
My job combined with recent Charlton history tends to push me towards caution is all!
It’s understandable that there are reservations until we know Roland is 100% out the picture, but I think that if you take the time to consider that we are being backed by the private sec to one of the ruling families of the UAE, this is big boy s*** for want of a better term.
It makes far more sense (if you can afford it) to it when there are spare seats in the Lower West so that relatively few people are affected
Prices will only drop if a club has openly said a player can leave and there aren't many takers. As we come to the end of the window the club might lower his asking price or even release him just to get rid of the wage.
But on the other hand, as some clubs become more desperate as it gets to the last few days of January, then the selling clubs can ask for a higher fee and the players ask for higher wages.
4 well run clubs, but that would suggest that our aims are more the Curbishley/Murray years than anything more flashy (which is fine with me)
The only chance we have of getting him is if he isn't part of thier plans next season. If they are in the championship he probably will be.