Henry Irving, can you clarify The Valley/Sparrows Lane ownership status please. I know razil has commented, but do you agree ? Thanks.
What MS said was ESI own the bricks and mortar, and pitch, but not the surrounding land.
ESI will, according to MS, own everything in six months.
He understands why fans are uneasy about the separation of club and some of the ground for historical reasons but as he explained later it was less of an issue for ESI as they don't need to leverage (borrow against) the Valley to fund the takeover, unlike other potential buyers.
Hence also why, according to MS, the old directors bonds are not an issue while they were for others.
It's late, more tomorrow
I would think it’s all the land (the freehold), not just the surrounding land i.e. the car park.
You have been spouting quite a lot of crap over the last couple of years and im glad to finally not have to read anymore about aussies. No offence meant
The reason the separation was set up between Holdings and CAFC Limited in the first place was to protect the freehold asset from the football club going bust, i.e. so that its value as a freehold asset when the lease had been broken by insolvency could not be used to pay the debts of the football club.
Unless the title to the land has been split we seem to be getting no further than a range of colourful ways of describing the purchase of CAFC Limited but not Holdings. The ex-directors (some of them at least) don’t believe you can do that without their permission and they have not given it. Perhaps ESI have different advice, but I do wonder why they don’t seem prepared to share it with them if that’s the case?
Perhaps MS was just a bit ‘loose’ with his language and not trying to be deliberately vague. I don’t think his background suggests he would be a subject matter expert on legal and property matters and necessarily be precise on terminology used.
If we take at face value he may have simply meant the lease to the ground means they can practically do whatever they need to I.e. the bricks and mortar for the football club. Access to the freehold will follow subsequently.
When we turn to squad matters...did anyone ask about the circumstances of Gallagher’s recall?
Interesting comment from MS about how asking prices drop significantly at the end of the window. Makes absolute sense, but I’ve never heard it actually articulated by someone with practical experience.
Might I, respectfully suggest, that we all give MS and ESI some space to see what they deliver in terms of new signings until the end of next week, and in terms of the purchase of the whole 'package' that is Charlton Athletic (land, buildings car parks etc) until the summer. MS has already spoken more and been far more public than RD was in 6 years, and MS has only been in charge 3 bloody weeks. Its time we just watched and see what transpires throughout the rest of this season and the early stages of season 20/21. We will see if the training ground works begin in the summer, we will see what happens regarding strengthening the squad in 7 days and we will see if the 6 months to purchase the club happens. I'm looking forward to hearing (away from the buildings and land) what else was said last night, and I'm certainly looking forward to this new era. Its time to sit back and see what unfolds, we have had enough dark days to last as a lifetime, lets just all chill out for at least 6 months and try and enjoy the football!
I just want Duchâtelet out completely, regardless of assurances that ESI own the leasehold. I don’t trust Roland an inch.
Yep. I can entirely see why ESI would have wanted to structure the deal in such a way as a result of the time pressures relating to the transfer window, but I don't trust Roland not to shaft us given the opportunity. Until he's completely gone I'm not going to be happy.
Pitches don't have French Drains, they would only go beside a pitch. It's a trench with a land drain at the bottom that is back filled with pea gravel. It can help reduce the water table and as there is no soil/turf on the top, it takes surface run off away quickly to the land drain and away.
Ideal for use close to buildings with no damp proof course. Maybe we are saving money on construction costs 😉
Might I, respectfully suggest, that we all give MS and ESI some space to see what they deliver in terms of new signings until the end of next week, and in terms of the purchase of the whole 'package' that is Charlton Athletic (land, buildings car parks etc) until the summer. MS has already spoken more and been far more public than RD was in 6 years, and MS has only been in charge 3 bloody weeks. Its time we just watched and see what transpires throughout the rest of this season and the early stages of season 20/21. We will see if the training ground works begin in the summer, we will see what happens regarding strengthening the squad in 7 days and we will see if the 6 months to purchase the club happens. I'm looking forward to hearing (away from the buildings and land) what else was said last night, and I'm certainly looking forward to this new era. Its time to sit back and see what unfolds, we have enough dark days to last as a lifetime!!
You clearly don’t understand the nature of Internet forums!
I just want Duchâtelet out completely, regardless of assurances that ESI own the leasehold. I don’t trust Roland an inch.
Yep. I can entirely see why ESI would have wanted to structure the deal in such a way as a result of the time pressures relating to the transfer window, but I don't trust Roland not to shaft us given the opportunity. Until he's completely gone I'm not going to be happy.
I just can't see how he can given the contracts that have been in place from before, and the calibre of business people he's dealing with, with regards to HE / Heller and their teams, not so much MS.
Might I, respectfully suggest, that we all give MS and ESI some space to see what they deliver in terms of new signings until the end of next week, and in terms of the purchase of the whole 'package' that is Charlton Athletic (land, buildings car parks etc) until the summer. MS has already spoken more and been far more public than RD was in 6 years, and MS has only been in charge 3 bloody weeks. Its time we just watched and see what transpires throughout the rest of this season and the early stages of season 20/21. We will see if the training ground works begin in the summer, we will see what happens regarding strengthening the squad in 7 days and we will see if the 6 months to purchase the club happens. I'm looking forward to hearing (away from the buildings and land) what else was said last night, and I'm certainly looking forward to this new era. Its time to sit back and see what unfolds, we have had enough dark days to last as a lifetime, lets just all chill out for at least 6 months and try and enjoy the football!
Henry Irving, can you clarify The Valley/Sparrows Lane ownership status please. I know razil has commented, but do you agree ? Thanks.
What MS said was ESI own the bricks and mortar, and pitch, but not the surrounding land.
ESI will, according to MS, own everything in six months.
He understands why fans are uneasy about the separation of club and some of the ground for historical reasons but as he explained later it was less of an issue for ESI as they don't need to leverage (borrow against) the Valley to fund the takeover, unlike other potential buyers.
Hence also why, according to MS, the old directors bonds are not an while they were for others.
It's late, more tomorrow
Thanks. So I'm assuming from this that the directors loans will continue, as they have no need/reason to repay them.
That was MS's view.
To answer Rick's question ESI have, according to MS, taken on the liability of the loans but as they don't need to leverage the assets they don't have to repay them now.
They will when we're in the premier league over five years as per the original agreement although MS said they'd be happy to reach a settlement with the directors.
I'm merely reporting what was said at the meeting BTW
Thanks, but the loans are secured against the freehold of the land (among other things). It makes no sense to say that ESI have taken on the liability of the loans without holding the assets against which they are secured. For obvious reasons it’s not ESI’s choice to do so and the asset holder (RD) cannot pass them on like that because they are secured against Baton as well as FC Limited.
The only viable interpretation I can see would be that RD is also liable for the loans because they remain secured against assets which he still owns.
In any event the ex-directors had been led to believe - including by Richard Murray - that they are getting their money.
Perhaps the legally binding agreement/type of compulsory order has covered this angle, so that the new owners have taken on the liability ?
Whatever contract exists it must be contingent on payment, so it cannot be certain and it wouldn’t avoid the issue of the charges. They can take on the liability - they can’t remove the charges. Anyway, I’ve repeated myself enough on this!
Personally, I’ll be more than happy to trust ESI when I see them spending money to back up the positive messages. Lee Bowyer’s contract is a good start but we need to stay in this division.
Having now retired from a banking commercial background, I did previously get significantly involved in the taking and in the wording of debenture security. It can be a minefield!
If the old directors have cross guarantees and debentures across both companies it is hard to see how ESL have done what they are purporting to have done, without some sort of agreement from the debenture holders.
However it is very difficult to pass judgement without seeing;
1. The original security documentation.
2. Terms of the sale contract.
@“Airman Brown" do you know if the directors are taking legal advice over this?
Agreed. The Director loans are insignificant to any deal, they are simply a debt new owners take into account in making a deal.
The legal costs to make changes to the existing terms would eat up more than the 7k debt, so I suspect nothing has changed in terms of who owes what to whom.
MS comments about not being worried about carrying debt makes sense given a £60k loan owed to Staprix at 2% and a contingent liability of £7k create no significant financial liability. As long as tenure is secure it doesn’t matter if you occupy as a freeholder or leaseholder.
“Owning bricks and mortar” may be reference to the benefit of the lease via CAFC Ltd otherwise it can only mean the freehold has been bought from Holdings/Baton. The statement about buying Sparrows Lane in six months means they don’t yet own Holdings/Baton and haven’t bought out the freehold, so can’t see how CAFC has anything other than the ongoing leasehold title.
i see no logical reason to be worried about how the legalv issues around the deal get sorted. Who knows, the Rat may be happy to get his debt repaid down the line and in the meantime gets a small rent, why should we be worried if that suit both parties.
Re Glicjsten, I suspect Glicksten was bleeding the club with a hefty commercial rent, not a nominal rent as currently paid to the freeholder so an entirely different financial exposure.
Jeez...If I’d known the debt and loans were that low I’d have bought the club myself!!! 🤷🏻♂️
So if The new owners do not buy the freeholds of the Valley and SL before the end of the season and Charlton get promoted (don't laugh) does that mean that Roland would legally have to pay up the directors loans?
When we turn to squad matters...did anyone ask about the circumstances of Gallagher’s recall?
Interesting comment from MS about how asking prices drop significantly at the end of the window. Makes absolute sense, but I’ve never heard it actually articulated by someone with practical experience.
Then we get the likes of Josh Parker.
Not if the goals for the window’s activity (both selling and buying) have been planned and agreed in advance by all relevant members of the management.
That does not eliminate the risk element, but it makes the likelihood of a decent outcome soooo much higher.
Patently that did not happen 12 months ago. The sale of Grant - for a pittance - clearly blindsided Bow and co. As did the recall of Gallagher but that clearly was not the fault of the management team, who could not reasonably have planned for it, given the signals from Chelsea’s relevant people in December.
When we turn to squad matters...did anyone ask about the circumstances of Gallagher’s recall?
Interesting comment from MS about how asking prices drop significantly at the end of the window. Makes absolute sense, but I’ve never heard it actually articulated by someone with practical experience.
Then we get the likes of Josh Parker.
Not if the goals for the window’s activity (both selling and buying) have been planned and agreed in advance by all relevant members of the management.
That does not eliminate the risk element, but it makes the likelihood of a decent outcome soooo much higher.
Patently that did not happen 12 months ago. The sale of Grant - for a pittance - clearly blindsided Bow and co. As did the recall of Gallagher but that clearly was not the fault of the management team, who could not reasonably have planned for it, given the signals from Chelsea’s relevant people in December.
Surely that planning would include a timeline to maximise the value of our investment in new players? We’ve played 5 matches since the window opened and won 0 of them.
LA did say people could stay overnight at the new training ground but not live there.
On the Valley there are no plans to expand capacity until crowds reach capacity but they are looking at improvements is the dug outs and the millennium suite.
In February and March MS will meet with all the department heads to discuss what needs to be done.
Already had a meeting with the head groundsman in the middle of the pitch.
LA did say people could stay overnight at the new training ground but not live there.
On the Valley there are no plans to expand capacity until crowds reach capacity but they are looking at improvements is the dug outs and the millennium suite.
In February and March MS will meet with all the department heads to discuss what needs to be done.
Already had a meeting with the head groundsman in the middle of the pitch.
Curious to see how they can improve the dugouts
They've always been a bit squeezed in, only way I could see them achieving it (if they wanted those proper Premier League bench seats) is by building into the West Stand where I presume fans will lose their Season Tickets
MS realises how important this is. Meetings have been held with representatives of Macauley Bonne, Dillon Phillips, Alfie Doughty, Aaron Henry, James Vennings and Albie Morgan to look at 3-4 year deals.
Good stuff!!! - Phillips is the priority of all the youngsters for me as at present
If he continues in his present form it wont be long before we lose him like we lost Nick Pope!!
When we turn to squad matters...did anyone ask about the circumstances of Gallagher’s recall?
Interesting comment from MS about how asking prices drop significantly at the end of the window. Makes absolute sense, but I’ve never heard it actually articulated by someone with practical experience.
Then we get the likes of Josh Parker.
Josh Parker did exactly the job he was bought into do. If we bring in 2 or 3 players either on loan, or take over the last 6 months of thier contracts, they keep us up and shake hands and walk off into the sun set. That would be fine wouldn't it?
If you can't bring in players that would be first choice next season, you don't want "make does" on 2 or 3 year contracts, especially on first team money.
That's how wage bills get inflated and out of control.
Thanks for all the updates and comments. Very informative. Still unclear to me why the deal was structured so as to give ESI a fair crack at the January transfer window and deal with the DD etc of other parts of the club and yet here we are six days from the end of the window with the team having needed reinforcements for weeks and weeks and sitting in a precarious league position and yet all we have to show for all this talk and ambition is the loan of Green from Aston Villa and the squad is now weaker than when they bought the club. What I’ve read gives me some encouragement but I will only feel confident once some of this talk is translated into action. Losing our Championship status surely cannot be an option. Certainly when some sensible expenditure can ensure it.
Comments
MS has already spoken more and been far more public than RD was in 6 years, and MS has only been in charge 3 bloody weeks. Its time we just watched and see what transpires throughout the rest of this season and the early stages of season 20/21. We will see if the training ground works begin in the summer, we will see what happens regarding strengthening the squad in 7 days and we will see if the 6 months to purchase the club happens. I'm looking forward to hearing (away from the buildings and land) what else was said last night, and I'm certainly looking forward to this new era. Its time to sit back and see what unfolds, we have had enough dark days to last as a lifetime, lets just all chill out for at least 6 months and try and enjoy the football!
Our notes from the meeting:
https://www.castrust.org
He was joking BTW
That does not eliminate the risk element, but it makes the likelihood of a decent outcome soooo much higher.
Patently that did not happen 12 months ago. The sale of Grant - for a pittance - clearly blindsided Bow and co. As did the recall of Gallagher but that clearly was not the fault of the management team, who could not reasonably have planned for it, given the signals from Chelsea’s relevant people in December.
LA did say people could stay overnight at the new training ground but not live there.
On the Valley there are no plans to expand capacity until crowds reach capacity but they are looking at improvements is the dug outs and the millennium suite.
In February and March MS will meet with all the department heads to discuss what needs to be done.
Already had a meeting with the head groundsman in the middle of the pitch.
They've always been a bit squeezed in, only way I could see them achieving it (if they wanted those proper Premier League bench seats) is by building into the West Stand where I presume fans will lose their Season Tickets
Good stuff!!! - Phillips is the priority of all the youngsters for me as at present
If he continues in his present form it wont be long before we lose him like we lost Nick Pope!!
Injury list explained.
If you can't bring in players that would be first choice next season, you don't want "make does" on 2 or 3 year contracts, especially on first team money.
That's how wage bills get inflated and out of control.
Well if he changes his mind he will be very welcome here.