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Post Match Thread: Burton Albion v Charlton Athletic | Tuesday 24th November 2020

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    In the second half we created more chances mainly because we did hit Aneke and we were playing a higher line and pushed forward with Gilbey in the game more and then the talented Morgan who can see a pass if there is movement.
    Burton did drop back and played a counter attacking game which worked a treat for them.

    You play short or long from the back, you mix it up like when Amos found Doughty who despite not finding a cafc shirt with his cross, the ball ended up in the back of the net after just 8 seconds or so from the ball leaving Ben's hands.

    Man City only have a Plan A according to Kevin De Bruyne; playing in League 1 we don't have the players to outskill the opposition every week with one way of playing. The possession stats are the most pointless (Literally) 
    A friend who is a Manager of a Corals branch showed me the amount of times a team wins with only 30 to 40% of possession. The slow build up from the back is ok at times when you are doing game management But to do it constantly is counter productive.  

    Only one loss in 8 but the performance since the international break is alarming considering the amount of work they did over two weeks at Sparrows lane. 

    Maybe the previous run flattered us a bit but that's gone now and Lee has to work with the limitations of our squad.

    Let's hope for a solid defensive display on Saturday. 
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    Last nights game was a blip, completely agree with Bowyers press conference after the game... We have had an amazing start under a team who are still gelling together as a unit. This is a wake up call to the lads and I'm sure they will go to Ipswich and do us proud. As well we haven't got a proper CB at the minute. If we lose one game in every 9 games then I will be well chuffed with that.
    If we play like we did last night we will struggle. The first two goals were given away and there's no point using injuries as an excuse.

    I'm unclear why Pearce didn't start - Lee starts other players who are not 100% match fit.

    If Ipswich watch last night's game they'll know what to target. Hopefully mistakes won't be repeated.
    Football is football, it's all about turning up on the day, Burton did last night, we didn't. I would love for us to win every game from now till the end of the season but it's not going to happen and I'm not saying this is the last time we will play like we did last night because it will happen again this season but very rarely. Like I also said if we lose one game in 9 for the rest of the campaign then that's playoffs form at least.
    Amazing how fans forget the previous 8 games.  The fickleness of the modern supporter.

    Ffs, if we move outside the top 6 there will be calls for the sacking of Bowyer.
    We'll definitely drop out of the playoff positions tonight.

    Fleetwood play Sunderland: both are on 22 points, 1 point behind us.
    Both have a superior GD to us.

    A draw or a win for either side, sees them go above us.






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    Playing out from the back is certainly in vogue at present and it's obviously very effective if you can break the press and find space further up the pitch. If, however, the opposition press effectively and force errors, it can look ridiculous, as we did last night. I remember Arsenal, for example, conceding a number of absurd goals in similar circumstances last season. 

    There's a lot to be said for moving the ball up the field quickly, although we've lost one of our major outlets in Doughty, whose pace forced the opposition to sit deeper, thereby creating more space in midfield. A balance is required but when our tedious and fragile gameplay wasn't working last night against intense opposition on a small pitch, we were far too slow to respond and adapt.

    I'm looking forward to reading Kevin Nolan's match report. I think it is fair to say that Kevin is not a fan of the current fashion for fannying about at the back ....
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    Redskin said:
    The bed-wetting histrionics on here after one poor game are cringeworthy.  
    As are those who won't face up to the shortcomings of the team. We're in a work in progress and surely there are weaknesses that can be addressed? 

    I'm sure we all want the same thing?
    '...those who won't face up to the shortcomings of the team.' are not guilty of bed-wetting histrionics.  It's a meaningless comparison.
    Of course we all want the same thing, what an odd thing to say.
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    I'm still confused by that midfield shape yesterday. We were perfectly set up for 4-3-3 - a holder to shield the defence in Watson,a box to box midfielder in Gilbey and a playmaker in Shinnie, along with two inverted wingers, one of whom's workrate could balance out the other, and a CF who would benefit from balls coming into the box. Alternatively we were fine for the diamond with Watson at the base, Maddison at the tip and the other two in the central roles, similar to our Bielik-Cullen-Aribo-Williams set up. Instead we went fairly flat with Watson expected to match up against their midfield in a way he's not equipped for, no time on the ball for Shinnie, and our wide areas staffed by a centre mid and an advanced winger/10. Crazy stuff really. The way Burton were playing I think three in the middle was the logical choice to protect that makeshift back four but we didn't switch to that and I don't really get why.
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    Oggy Red said:
    Last nights game was a blip, completely agree with Bowyers press conference after the game... We have had an amazing start under a team who are still gelling together as a unit. This is a wake up call to the lads and I'm sure they will go to Ipswich and do us proud. As well we haven't got a proper CB at the minute. If we lose one game in every 9 games then I will be well chuffed with that.
    If we play like we did last night we will struggle. The first two goals were given away and there's no point using injuries as an excuse.

    I'm unclear why Pearce didn't start - Lee starts other players who are not 100% match fit.

    If Ipswich watch last night's game they'll know what to target. Hopefully mistakes won't be repeated.
    Football is football, it's all about turning up on the day, Burton did last night, we didn't. I would love for us to win every game from now till the end of the season but it's not going to happen and I'm not saying this is the last time we will play like we did last night because it will happen again this season but very rarely. Like I also said if we lose one game in 9 for the rest of the campaign then that's playoffs form at least.
    Amazing how fans forget the previous 8 games.  The fickleness of the modern supporter.

    Ffs, if we move outside the top 6 there will be calls for the sacking of Bowyer.
    We'll definitely drop out of the playoff positions tonight.

    Fleetwood play Sunderland: both are on 22 points, 1 point behind us.
    Both have a superior GD to us.

    A draw or a win for either side, sees them go above us.






    They are not playing until Friday.
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    edited November 2020
    Stig said:
    Been saying for weeks we mess around with the ball at the back too much and all it takes is a team to press us and we will look very silly. That’s what happened tonight. Really really poor night.
    I've been saying it for years.
    Bowyer believes we can pass it around like Barcelona. We can't.
    If we're getting tightly pressed stop playing the dangerous game.
    You're right it's a dangerous game, but I think the slow passing around the back also also costs us when we try to move into attack: We're passing the ball around, busy going nowhere. It's all very sedentary - not much movement, not much pace.  Then one of our players spots an opening and makes a move, the man on the ball sees him and makes the pass... What happens next? What happens it that the passer, whose senses have been dulled to leisurely-lateral level, places the ball not in front of the runner but at his feet. Or worse still, behind. The runner has to check his step, and may need more touches to control the ball. Vital fractions are lost and the advantage has gone. If we're going to play that style of football we need players with the skill read the pace of the game and acclimatise instantly to the speed-up. Sadly, I don't think we have many of them.
    Its interesting watching games from yesteryear. The other week someone on here put up the FA cup matches against Ipswich and Spurs from the early 80's. In both games the onus was on getting the ball forward asap. Goalkeepers from both sides would simply hoof it forward & defenders would pretty much do the same (although the Spurs players tried to play a bit more football). Tippy tappy may look good if you are Man City or Barcelona  - not quite the same for League 1 cloggers. Don't get me wrong, neat passing football is great to watch, but in the opposition half & not your own 22.
    Funny you should mention those 1980s cup games, Golfie ...... there was also another around that time v Watford.

    I'm sure I remember reading a match preview in the paper at the time, where Graham Taylor then the Watford manager, said his mantra to the team was to get the ball quickly into the opponents box, where the real damage can be done.

    Admittedly, it was a bit of a kick and run side he had then, not always pretty to watch, but very effective - they had width, pace and used space; teams couldn't handle them and they scored plenty of goals. They weren't in the top half of the top tier for no reason.

    But Taylor's point wasn't lost on me: most goals are scored in the box and that's where you want to play most of your football.

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    edited November 2020
    Bogle isn’t good enough IMO. Chucks can’t play 90 as LB keeps saying so people need to stop expecting him to start - instead we need to firmly be eyeing up decent strikers for January. 
    Said this as soon as we signed him & got criticised by some on here (Not unexpected :smiley: ). He was a decent non league player & helped get Grimsby back into the league, did quite well in League two for a season but once he moved up the ladder he was out of his depth. If TS had been able to buy the club a month or two earlier there's no way Bogle would be with us now.
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    Dansk_Red said:
    Oggy Red said:
    Last nights game was a blip, completely agree with Bowyers press conference after the game... We have had an amazing start under a team who are still gelling together as a unit. This is a wake up call to the lads and I'm sure they will go to Ipswich and do us proud. As well we haven't got a proper CB at the minute. If we lose one game in every 9 games then I will be well chuffed with that.
    If we play like we did last night we will struggle. The first two goals were given away and there's no point using injuries as an excuse.

    I'm unclear why Pearce didn't start - Lee starts other players who are not 100% match fit.

    If Ipswich watch last night's game they'll know what to target. Hopefully mistakes won't be repeated.
    Football is football, it's all about turning up on the day, Burton did last night, we didn't. I would love for us to win every game from now till the end of the season but it's not going to happen and I'm not saying this is the last time we will play like we did last night because it will happen again this season but very rarely. Like I also said if we lose one game in 9 for the rest of the campaign then that's playoffs form at least.
    Amazing how fans forget the previous 8 games.  The fickleness of the modern supporter.

    Ffs, if we move outside the top 6 there will be calls for the sacking of Bowyer.
    We'll definitely drop out of the playoff positions tonight.

    Fleetwood play Sunderland: both are on 22 points, 1 point behind us.
    Both have a superior GD to us.

    A draw or a win for either side, sees them go above us.






    They are not playing until Friday.
    Ah, you're right. My mistake.

    My post amended to: we drop out of the playoff positions on Friday ....... whatever the result of Fleetwood v Sunderland. :neutral:

    Makes a win at Ipswich on Saturday psychologically important for us, if we are to return into the top 6.
    Our winning by 2 goals puts us in 3rd place ahead of Lincoln.

    Let's hope the team has the the resolve to win at Ipswich.
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    Horror show Burton 4-2 Charlton | Video | Watch TV Show | Sky Sports

    Totally wrong team selection, two defenders with a lot of experience in central defence left on the sidelines and a makeshift pair make a mess of the job ..  Pratley's role is in midfield where he was sorely missed .. it seems Bowyer is/was desperate to play both Matthews AND Gunter even if Gunter is not really suited to central defence .. despite the 'strengthening' of the striker corps, the goal tally is woeful for a squad with promotion ambitions .. injuries to key players can't (or shouldn't) be helped, dodgy team selections can.

    Ipswich, like us are going through an inconsistent phase .. we really need to get well back on track this weekend and give them a hiding .. negative defensive tactics allied to dodgy defending just will not do .. Hull gave them a bloody nose last night, we need to do the same to restore belief and confidence
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    Nearly all sides will have shockers, and yesterday we had a shocker

    However it has to be added that we weren't great against Gillingham either, so it's not as if we were superb on Saturday and just had a dip yesterday. After a slightly disappointing draw on Saturday, you'd have expected a position reaction yesterday, and instead the team had a collective shocker.
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    se9addick said:
    Oggy Red said:
    CH4RLTON said:
    One thing I would say especially now we can make more is time to have a more settled starting 11, too much chopping and changing find your 11 players and make the others earn their spots. I do think too much tinkering leads players becoming complacent.
    This is something I've touched on before.

    I get the thinking  behind rotating the squad - it keeps players fresher and all the squad are involved.
    Players are content. Every player knows they are going to play at some point.

    But the shirt isn't earned.

    I might be old school, but I firmly believe you have 'to earn the shirt' ........ you fight to keep your place, knowing that if you let your standards slip, there's a hungry player desperate to play in your place. It's competitive, it gives you that edge and you have to be 100% on your game.

    Where's the hunger and competition for the shirt in rotation?



    I agree, but the rotation of the squad is an outcome of Bowyer not knowing our best XI yet, mainly because we were under a transfer embargo until about three games into the season. That was always going to have impacts and I think this is one of them, were basically still learning things about this group of players that would normally be worked out during pre-season.
    No excuse for Morgan being rotated/dropped, it's just ridiculous
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    edited November 2020
    Valley11 said:
    Gunter is a good player but needs a rest. Away with Wales, playing out of position. 

    He's had a rest... He barely played for Wales whilst on International Duty
    Simonsen said:
    There wasn't some sort of genius master plan from Burton.....they just worked very hard, closed us down, marked their men and got in first. Basically, what every good team has done in English football since time began. You see defenders pissing about with it, so you immediately close them down and force errors. The defenders probably didn't want to go long because we had a midget playing up front with a bloke who couldn't win a thing and unfortunately Bowyer has to take some of the blame for setting us up like that to start with. 

    It just looked like we turned up expecting a nice little 3-0 cruise and couldn't believe Burton would actually have the nerve to close us down repeatedly. 

    That said, it was an odd game in so much that we had so many chances in that 2nd half but only scored one from a non-chance. 
    It's madness playing Smyth up front in this league (or probably any other one). The guy is a good player but he just doesn't have the build or height to play up front and hold the ball up and he just gets thumped all over the place by the hulking brutes that all teams have in the centre of their defences.

    If you're going to play him, play him wide in midfield where he can make a positive contribution to the team.

     


    Playing a midget up front sounds like a plan to me. He can run through opposition players legs.
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    Dansk_Red said:
    Oggy Red said:
    Last nights game was a blip, completely agree with Bowyers press conference after the game... We have had an amazing start under a team who are still gelling together as a unit. This is a wake up call to the lads and I'm sure they will go to Ipswich and do us proud. As well we haven't got a proper CB at the minute. If we lose one game in every 9 games then I will be well chuffed with that.
    If we play like we did last night we will struggle. The first two goals were given away and there's no point using injuries as an excuse.

    I'm unclear why Pearce didn't start - Lee starts other players who are not 100% match fit.

    If Ipswich watch last night's game they'll know what to target. Hopefully mistakes won't be repeated.
    Football is football, it's all about turning up on the day, Burton did last night, we didn't. I would love for us to win every game from now till the end of the season but it's not going to happen and I'm not saying this is the last time we will play like we did last night because it will happen again this season but very rarely. Like I also said if we lose one game in 9 for the rest of the campaign then that's playoffs form at least.
    Amazing how fans forget the previous 8 games.  The fickleness of the modern supporter.

    Ffs, if we move outside the top 6 there will be calls for the sacking of Bowyer.
    We'll definitely drop out of the playoff positions tonight.

    Fleetwood play Sunderland: both are on 22 points, 1 point behind us.
    Both have a superior GD to us.

    A draw or a win for either side, sees them go above us.






    They are not playing until Friday.
    Hurrah  !!  Another 2 whole days to stay in the play off places. Must remember to get the bunting out..........
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    Dansk_Red said:
    Oggy Red said:
    Last nights game was a blip, completely agree with Bowyers press conference after the game... We have had an amazing start under a team who are still gelling together as a unit. This is a wake up call to the lads and I'm sure they will go to Ipswich and do us proud. As well we haven't got a proper CB at the minute. If we lose one game in every 9 games then I will be well chuffed with that.
    If we play like we did last night we will struggle. The first two goals were given away and there's no point using injuries as an excuse.

    I'm unclear why Pearce didn't start - Lee starts other players who are not 100% match fit.

    If Ipswich watch last night's game they'll know what to target. Hopefully mistakes won't be repeated.
    Football is football, it's all about turning up on the day, Burton did last night, we didn't. I would love for us to win every game from now till the end of the season but it's not going to happen and I'm not saying this is the last time we will play like we did last night because it will happen again this season but very rarely. Like I also said if we lose one game in 9 for the rest of the campaign then that's playoffs form at least.
    Amazing how fans forget the previous 8 games.  The fickleness of the modern supporter.

    Ffs, if we move outside the top 6 there will be calls for the sacking of Bowyer.
    We'll definitely drop out of the playoff positions tonight.

    Fleetwood play Sunderland: both are on 22 points, 1 point behind us.
    Both have a superior GD to us.

    A draw or a win for either side, sees them go above us.






    They are not playing until Friday.
    Hurrah  !!  Another 2 whole days to stay in the play off places. Must remember to get the bunting out..........
    Damnit... You mean the season ends this weekend?
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    Scunthorpe (23rd) 5-3 Charlton
    Rochdale (16th) 1-0 Charlton

    I dunno lads, maybe our league one team of 18/19 weren’t as good as we thought it was..
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    Have not seen any of our games live, but surely if we are playing out from the back and through midfield, we need at least 1 midfielder who is truly comfortable in possession ie provides the out ball for others most times. (Parker and Murphy would be examples)
    Who is that player?
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    edited November 2020
    Have not seen any of our games live, but surely if we are playing out from the back and through midfield, we need at least 1 midfielder who is truly comfortable in possession ie provides the out ball for others most times. (Parker and Murphy would be examples)
    Who is that player?
    Would argue that player is Shinnie but he either had a shit game all by himself yesterday or Burton were smart enough to notice that our play goes through him from watching previous games so marked him out of the game
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    Have not seen any of our games live, but surely if we are playing out from the back and through midfield, we need at least 1 midfielder who is truly comfortable in possession ie provides the out ball for others most times. (Parker and Murphy would be examples)
    Who is that player?
    In that starting team, surely Shinnie would have been the player. He's done that role in previous games, but was off colour last night
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    Just watched the goals again. Not only were we shocking for the first 2 (which basically killed the game off) but give credit to the Burton team & management. They have obviously watched us & notice how much we fanny about with the ball. The first goal in particular you can see the striker actually makes a move towards our goal as if he KNOWS the pass is going to go back that way. It wasn't a player slipping (ala Gerard) and the striker pouncing on a mistake, he actually makes a conscious decision to follow where the ball is going to go.

    That then leads to something that I don't remember people picking up on last Saturday. One of our strikers (Bogle ?) not anticipating a shot & was on his heels when the Gills keeper spilled it. 

    The difference between the 2 incidents is striking (get the pun !!)
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    Morgan and Aneke did well, Washington wasted good chances, Maddison.  Well what can you say about Maddison.  Everything broke down on him. Morgan showed how poor Marcus was.

    The rest were well below par, slow and didn't adapt their game soon enough.

    Sometimes you need to go long just to make the other team have a different problem to worry about.

    We're a better team than we showed tonight and Ipswich got pumped too.

    Lee Bowyer's Red and White Army


    Bowyer refuses to go long though.
    I know I've said it numerous times, but I asked him why he didn't mix it up a bit, when it seemed the
    fannying around , passing sideways and backwards was clearly not working (like tonight) and he said that's the way he wants to play to keep possession.
    Hmmmm. All very well if you actually keep possession. Inniss and Famewo are excellent. Our defence with them in was magnificent. We missed them so so much in the last two matches.
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    Horror show Burton 4-2 Charlton | Video | Watch TV Show | Sky Sports

    Totally wrong team selection, two defenders with a lot of experience in central defence left on the sidelines and a makeshift pair make a mess of the job ..  Pratley's role is in midfield where he was sorely missed .. it seems Bowyer is/was desperate to play both Matthews AND Gunter even if Gunter is not really suited to central defence .. despite the 'strengthening' of the striker corps, the goal tally is woeful for a squad with promotion ambitions .. injuries to key players can't (or shouldn't) be helped, dodgy team selections can.

    Ipswich, like us are going through an inconsistent phase .. we really need to get well back on track this weekend and give them a hiding .. negative defensive tactics allied to dodgy defending just will not do .. Hull gave them a bloody nose last night, we need to do the same to restore belief and confidence

     Watching the Burton goals again, you can clearly see Burton had done their homework on us.


    First goal, watch the movement of their number 10 ....... he's clearly been told to anticipate the square ball across our defence - and he's moving to intercept the moment Gunther shapes to make the pass.

    Clear as day that the passing back and forth across our back 4 is a vulnerability ready to be exploited by aware opponents.
    If it's a vulnerability, why is it in our gameplan? That's Bowyer's responsibility.


    The 2nd goal, Amos cock up .......... why is a keeper trying to short pass a ball in his own box under pressure?
    Under pressure, it has to go high and long, clear the lines - hit it towards the strikers, wide into space, Row Z, anywhere - but for gawd's sake, don't fanny around in your own box, clear the lines! It's basic.

    Again, Burton were wise that the short ground pass from the keeper was part of our game plan - and they were anticipating it straightaway;
    at best, it was a real hospital ball to Watson.


    Incidentally, unlike the 3rd goal (aaaargh!), neither of those 2 goals were caused by not having a specialist CB on the pitch.
    You can blame those individual players, of course ..... but they were playing to instructions. 

    IMO that defensive possession gameplan was the culprit - it just invites pressure and interception. It's been rumbled. It's our vulnerability.



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    Have not seen any of our games live, but surely if we are playing out from the back and through midfield, we need at least 1 midfielder who is truly comfortable in possession ie provides the out ball for others most times. (Parker and Murphy would be examples)
    Who is that player?

    You also need a midfield that works hard to find space working in tandem with the defence and the defensive midfielder. Or you need a Naby Sarr type defender that could pick a long pass. I watched on Saturday (not last night) and it was quite frustrating at times, and it becomes predictable for the opposition. Three minutes of passing between the back six and not getting near the halfway line means that you are imiting your time attacking, hence limiting goal scoring opportunities. There's room for it in the game but not every time, surely.
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    3rd goal came from a well worked set piece
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    Valley11 said:
    Valley11 said:
    Gunter is a good player but needs a rest. Away with Wales, playing out of position. 

    He's had a rest... He barely played for Wales whilst on International Duty
    I don’t think you quite understand the demands of international football when you’re a senior player. Away from home for ten days. Living in hotels. Then back to Saturday/Tuesday/Saturday being a makeshift centre half in the up and under of League 1. 
    He was superb against Portsmouth but in my opinion, needs a break.
    It's funny because when average folks go on holiday for a rest they often go 'away from home for ten days' and are ''living' in hotels.'

    I don't buy it. So he did some training too but I'm sure less than the others who don't go away on an 'international break.'

    He had a break. You're making excuses for someone who switched off in a match. You don't do that at amateur level.
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    Just watched the goals again. Not only were we shocking for the first 2 (which basically killed the game off) but give credit to the Burton team & management. They have obviously watched us & notice how much we fanny about with the ball. The first goal in particular you can see the striker actually makes a move towards our goal as if he KNOWS the pass is going to go back that way. It wasn't a player slipping (ala Gerard) and the striker pouncing on a mistake, he actually makes a conscious decision to follow where the ball is going to go.

    That then leads to something that I don't remember people picking up on last Saturday. One of our strikers (Bogle ?) not anticipating a shot & was on his heels when the Gills keeper spilled it. 

    The difference between the 2 incidents is striking (get the pun !!)
    Looks like our posts crossed, Golfie ...... but we're both picking up on the same points.




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    3rd goal came from a well worked set piece
    Unfortunately from another mistake. An overhit and inaccurate backpass from Maatsen.
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    3rd goal came from a well worked set piece
    Sure, but it wasn't defended properly from the corner ....... free header (that Amos saved) should have been meat and drink for a specialist CB.
    It cost us that goal.


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    Redskin said:
    Redskin said:
    The bed-wetting histrionics on here after one poor game are cringeworthy.  
    As are those who won't face up to the shortcomings of the team. We're in a work in progress and surely there are weaknesses that can be addressed? 

    I'm sure we all want the same thing?
    '...those who won't face up to the shortcomings of the team.' are not guilty of bed-wetting histrionics.  It's a meaningless comparison.
    Of course we all want the same thing, what an odd thing to say.
    Just so you understand I was saying I find those who won't accept shortcomings to be 'cringeworthy' as per your original post. I would never use the ' bed-wetting ' phrase or make any comparison to it. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear.


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    edited November 2020
    Come on Lee we've got to try and make Aneke last 90mins.

    Aneke 5 goals to Minutes played is  impressive.

    Scoring two goals away from home in open play is good. 

    8 or 9 players played like a drain and stank the place out. Liverpool were shite against Villa and defended like a pub team. Van dijk and Gomez both played in that match but still conceded 7.

    Wednesday is normally the day off.
    If Thursday isn't light training from 10-12 followed by a healthy lunch at Sparrows lane and then analysis watching a video nasty of the Burton match from 1 till 5 or longer then I would be very disappointed.

    Friday needs to be totally focused on Ipswich.



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