Ipswich are out of sorts too so hopefully there's a reaction come Saturday.
I'm sure that there will be a reaction. Unfortunately, it's more likely to come from Ipswich, just as Burton reacted to their home defeat to Northampton.
Here they come people
You keep looking through the rose tinted glasses, believing that the squad is full of world beaters. I'll concentrate on what I see with my own eyes.
It won't happen, of course, but it would be good if tonight was Bogle's last appearance in a Charlton shirt.
And, is Gunter an impostor? 99 International caps. Hmmm.
Tonight showed why Bowyer is not good enough. Yes, yes, I know he's put up with all kinds of crap, but he will not deliver Thomas's dream of Premier League and European football.
Tactically naive, too limited in his thinking (see what I did there?) and unable to decide on his best line-up ... especially in midfield.
But he's Charlton through and through ... so let's not criticise.
One thing I would say especially now we can make more is time to have a more settled starting 11, too much chopping and changing find your 11 players and make the others earn their spots. I do think too much tinkering leads players becoming complacent.
This is something I've touched on before.
I get the thinking behind rotating the squad - it keeps players fresher and all the squad are involved. Players are content. Every player knows they are going to play at some point.
But the shirt isn't earned.
I might be old school, but I firmly believe you have 'to earn the shirt' ........ you fight to keep your place, knowing that if you let your standards slip, there's a hungry player desperate to play in your place. It's competitive, it gives you that edge and you have to be 100% on your game.
Where's the hunger and competition for the shirt in rotation?
I agree, but the rotation of the squad is an outcome of Bowyer not knowing our best XI yet, mainly because we were under a transfer embargo until about three games into the season. That was always going to have impacts and I think this is one of them, were basically still learning things about this group of players that would normally be worked out during pre-season.
Hmmm ...... sure, he's still playing catch up with no proper pre-season gelling the squad, shape and tactics; he's having to do that now, on the hoof. And with that, certainly agree with you that Bowyer doesn't know his best XI yet.
But I doubt we'll ever see Bowyer play his strongest team, settled and integrated as a unit, playing week after week. That's not his way.
He firmly believes in rotating players. It's the way he's always picked the team ever since he became manager. But we are not seeing our strongest team.
Bogle isn’t good enough IMO. Chucks can’t play 90 as LB keeps saying so people need to stop expecting him to start - instead we need to firmly be eyeing up decent strikers for January.
Bogle is a good forward when he holds the ball up, today he failed to do this, but `i'm not about to write him off.
As for Chuks, he will never be able to play 90 if we don't allow him to start games more often. I do also see we don't have the impact forward we need to bring on when Chuks is tiring.
I dread to think how we will play vs Ipswich, but we do tend to turn up vs decent opposition.
I think we completely underestimated Burton tonight.
It’s amazing how important a settled back 4 is. I do feel for LB that injuries have once again fucked us over. 5 games without conceding when we had one. It’s no coincidence. Our season was set up that we weren’t going to concede many and it would just take time for the forward players to gel. That’s obviously taken a massive turn for the worst.
People writing off top 2 after tonight is a big overreaction. Pearce coming back will help. We have the squad, we just need to get our best 11 on the pitch as much as possible.
I think we all know we needed that extra CB and another striker and instead we got Matthews and Smyth. Both good players, but neither what Bow or Gallen would have had top of their lists I am sure.
Morgan and Aneke did well, Washington wasted good chances, Maddison. Well what can you say about Maddison. Everything broke down on him. Morgan showed how poor Marcus was.
The rest were well below par, slow and didn't adapt their game soon enough.
Sometimes you need to go long just to make the other team have a different problem to worry about.
We're a better team than we showed tonight and Ipswich got pumped too.
Lee Bowyer's Red and White Army
Bowyer refuses to go long though. I know I've said it numerous times, but I asked him why he didn't mix it up a bit, when it seemed the fannying around , passing sideways and backwards was clearly not working (like tonight) and he said that's the way he wants to play to keep possession.
Weird considering we do so much better when we have the lesser possession.
A different possession stat would be more useful, possession in the opposition half, as when a team has the ball in its own half for long periods, and just passes it around sideways and backwards that's meaningless
Bowyer and his rotation. He doesn't know his best team or formation. Come on its getting silly now, Morgan has an good game on Saturday and doesn't start?
Bowyer and his rotation. He doesn't know his best team or formation. Come on its getting silly now, Morgan has an good game on Saturday and doesn't start?
Morgan has played well in his last 5 in all competitions.
If he doesn't start Saturday I will be fuming with Bowyer.
It’s amazing how important a settled back 4 is. I do feel for LB that injuries have once again fucked us over. 5 games without conceding when we had one. It’s no coincidence. Our season was set up that we weren’t going to concede many and it would just take time for the forward players to gel. That’s obviously taken a massive turn for the worst.
People writing off top 2 after tonight is a big overreaction. Pearce coming back will help. We have the squad, we just need to get our best 11 on the pitch as much as possible.
I think we all know we needed that extra CB and another striker and instead we got Matthews and Smyth. Both good players, but neither what Bow or Gallen would have had top of their lists I am sure.
That's being wise with hindsight though, in the light of tonight's car-crash performance and result.
It's a small chance that a team will have all 4 CBs injured or unfit to start. But it happened to us this month.
Under the wage cap, to sign another CB would have been an extravagance - don't forget young Ronnie Barker has already proved his worth. He'd be capable as cover on the bench and an occasional start.
We got Matthews - he's a known commodity at Charlton and had an impressive year with us last season. He fits in. No brainer to sign him as an after deadline free agent.
I believe you're forgetting that we were let down at the last minute signing Rocket Ronnie Schwartz. Smyth might not be a 'fox in the box', but with his attitude and pace, he's has looked very useful ..... a goal and an assist in his last 2 appearances, for example.
If it hadn't been for the wage cap, we probably could have signed other strikers. But because of the embargo and with wage limitations, which quality proven strikers would have been available at the last minute?
Felt bogle was unfairly brought off, he hadn’t been given any service regardless of score - he will be upset with that, especially as aneke did little when coming on and given more service!
I see stand up comedy has returned after 8 months.
Not a game to forget, a game to remember. To remember the hurt and the pain. To learn from it and to resolve never to let it happen again. Frankly, I expect better from everyone in future.
Amos, Gunter, Matthews, Pratley, Shinnie, Gilbey and Bogle all had their worst games of the season. I expect them to come back with a steely determination that it won't happen again. Maatsen also had his worst game too, but I think for him he is simply trying to do too much. It's no use expecting him to be the stylish wing back putting crosses into the box and being the assured defender covering for the fact that his neighbouring defenders are out of position. He'll only end up tying his feet in knots - as indeed he did. Maddison was another in the worst performances club, and for him it was quite a feat, because he managed to surpass some pretty sad turnouts in his short Charlton career.
As for what went wrong exactly, the low energy was the biggest worry for me. I understand things don't always come off but the lackadaisical opening half hour was a real shocker. Just why were so many of our team not up to speed? Some awful passing, especially at the back. Bad decision making: when we played it along the ground, why try to walk it through the tightest patch of defenders? When we're playing it long, why is our target man so isolated? Some awful defending: the worst of which was a player standing in the box, whilst they were attacking, and this bloke (might have been Watson, but I'm not certain) literally stood there with his hands on his knees. Unsurprisingly, that was another goal.
It’s amazing how important a settled back 4 is. I do feel for LB that injuries have once again fucked us over. 5 games without conceding when we had one. It’s no coincidence. Our season was set up that we weren’t going to concede many and it would just take time for the forward players to gel. That’s obviously taken a massive turn for the worst.
People writing off top 2 after tonight is a big overreaction. Pearce coming back will help. We have the squad, we just need to get our best 11 on the pitch as much as possible.
I think we all know we needed that extra CB and another striker and instead we got Matthews and Smyth. Both good players, but neither what Bow or Gallen would have had top of their lists I am sure.
That's being wise with hindsight though, in the light of tonight's car-crash performance and result.
It's a small chance that a team will have all 4 CBs injured or unfit to start. But it happened to us this month.
Under the wage cap, to sign another CB would have been an extravagance - don't forget young Ronnie Barker has already proved his worth. He'd be capable as cover on the bench and an occasional start.
We got Matthews - he's a known commodity at Charlton and had an impressive year with us last season. He fits in. No brainer to sign him as an after deadline free agent.
I believe you're forgetting that we were let down at the last minute signing Rocket Ronnie Schwartz. Smyth might not be a 'fox in the box', but with his attitude and pace, he's has looked very useful ..... a goal and an assist in his last 2 appearances, for example.
If it hadn't been for the wage cap, we probably could have signed other strikers. But because of the embargo and with wage limitations, which quality proven strikers would have been available at the last minute?
I didn't criticise Bowyer or Gallen? I said we could all see that we needed them. Oshilaja is a RB that can play CB, a bit like Gunter. Neither should be playing CB regularly.
The salary cap and delays in the takeover caused by Elliott and Farnell are the reason we couldn't bring in other players at the same time as Gilbey and Washington, Bowyer even admitted we lost a few players because of it.
Personally I don't even see Bogle as a bad signing. Useful option for rotation with Chuks, he does need to remember he's the big man up top and not a number 10 which is where he keeps ending up... Sitting much deeper than his partner, in fact so deep the whole midfield are often ahead of him when the ball falls to him.
You state Charlie Barker has proven his worth, Bowyer obviously doesn't see it as we do. He chose to have two CB's on the bench that weren't match fit. Barker didn't even make the bench. Bowyer then chose not to use either of those despite it being clear Gunter and Pratley were being overrun from the first 5 minutes.
At 2-0 with the 5 sub rule, we should have at very least brought Pearce on. If Barker had been there, I'd have brought them both on. Neither Gunter or Pratley hid, which is to their credit, but I expect seasoned pros not to hide...
The one thing I am actually genuinely concerned about is this line from Bowyer that we spent the whole break working on our shape. If that's so, why have we looked so disorganised the last 2 games?
Felt bogle was unfairly brought off, he hadn’t been given any service regardless of score - he will be upset with that, especially as aneke did little when coming on and given more service!
I see stand up comedy has returned after 8 months.
My favourite bit was Greg's comment on the live stream after about ten minutes:
"Bogle has already had more touches than he did at Gillingham."
Nice observation, Greg ... but that's largely because of Bogle's inability to control the ball.
First touch? Bogle's first touch consists of about ten touches.
Really pleased I saved myself £10 & didn't buy the match stream. Because of that I'm not going to comment on the match itself, but simply my observations following the result........
1) play centre halves at centre half. Not midfielders or right backs. Pearce/Oshilaja could have done 45 mins each with Barker being the other CH. It seems we are back to square pegs in round holes. Didnt work then either.
2) from what I've seen this season Morgan is one of our best midfielders & should be starting when he can. Seems to have made a difference this evening & I hope that the penny has dropped now for Bows.
3) surely Aneke can start & play 70 mins. Get ahead in a game THEN you can take him off. Not the other way round.
4) teams now know that you only have to go ahead in a game to beat us. I think that's now 19 games we've conceded first & not even drawn, let alone won. I'm sure someone will check but I bet other teams know this. Doncaster came back from being 2-0 behind tonight to win. Pompey done it recently too. Teams do it week in & week out. We don't.
5) When did football change that 3rd tier footballers think they are Maradona. You are playing in League 1 because you are not good enough for the Premier League. Your first job as a defender is to clear the ball, not try to play fancy football around your own 18 yard box.
6) I said on the Gillingham post match thread, on the "where are the goals going to come from" thread and on both tonights pre match & match thread........we don't score enough & would lose tonight. I'm not pleased that I predicted it, but its patently obvious. We have very little goal threat up front, a midfield that is slow & who's first pass is either backwards or sideways and defenders who want to pass it between themselves. We have very little flair or oomph. Combine that with knowing that if we concede first we aren't going to win it's hardly rocket science to think we need to score first to have any chance in a game.
7) I'm not a stats man but I do remember stuff I hear/read. Nottingham Forests' 78/79 European Cup winning side played 63 matches that season. In March they played 9 matches in April 10. The pitches went pristine as they are now & only 1 sub was allowed in those days. I believe most of the players played over 50 matches that year, some almost all of them. There was no "rotating" or "resting" of players. Play your best 11 & stick to it.
If only Aneke was fit enough to play every game, as he and Washington could be an excellent partnership.
Bogle has got a lot of ability, but he is too greedy to play the target man role. Always tries too much, and wants to run at defenders. He ignores easy passes into our midfield, and never looks for his strike partner.
Bogle and Maddison are carrying big egos. I hope Bowyer can get them firing, as both can be assets for us, it’s still early days.
Watching a replay of the first two goals you have to wonder why both Gunter and Amos were so switched off? Even after Gunter's mistake Amos should have saved the first and then he decides to give away another goal.
Don't pass it around at the back if your players make such basic mistakes.
I actually am finding myself starting to agree with a number of your comments. That's a sad day
I do think Aneke and Washington can reach 30 between them. Bogle may get 5, but I'm not sure how many will be clear cut shots. Smyth I'd expect 5 as well. A whole 40 goals... woo.
Been saying for weeks we mess around with the ball at the back too much and all it takes is a team to press us and we will look very silly. That’s what happened tonight. Really really poor night.
I've been saying it for years. Bowyer believes we can pass it around like Barcelona. We can't. If we're getting tightly pressed stop playing the dangerous game.
Bowyer and his rotation. He doesn't know his best team or formation. Come on its getting silly now, Morgan has an good game on Saturday and doesn't start?
Playing devils advocate could Morgan have done as well as he did tonight because he didn't start? Rather like Chuks most matches? Could that be Lee Bowyers thinking?
In the case of Morgan my instinct is to agree with you, to be honest, but Chuks is so fragile for a big bloke that I honestly don't think Lee has any alternative but to nurse him in the way that he does. If he starts and does nothing after the 45 minutes or so he can play what then? I don't see Bogle as an impact sub but he can at least soften defences up for Chuks.
It won't happen, of course, but it would be good if tonight was Bogle's last appearance in a Charlton shirt.
And, is Gunter an impostor? 99 International caps. Hmmm.
Tonight showed why Bowyer is not good enough. Yes, yes, I know he's put up with all kinds of crap, but he will not deliver Thomas's dream of Premier League and European football.
Tactically naive, too limited in his thinking (see what I did there?) and unable to decide on his best line-up ... especially in midfield.
But he's Charlton through and through ... so let's not criticise.
That's the most important fing.
I have some sympathy for your thoughts regarding Bowyer. For the time being though he needs to be delivering Championship football first and having got us promoted from League One before we’d have to hope he can do it again. However, I am getting tired of his tinkering and some of his tactics and he needs to start getting it right. Being Charlton through and through shouldn’t shield him from justified criticism.
Comments
I'll concentrate on what I see with my own eyes.
And, is Gunter an impostor? 99 International caps. Hmmm.
Tonight showed why Bowyer is not good enough. Yes, yes, I know he's put up with all kinds of crap, but he will not deliver Thomas's dream of Premier League and European football.
Tactically naive, too limited in his thinking (see what I did there?) and unable to decide on his best line-up ... especially in midfield.
But he's Charlton through and through ... so let's not criticise.
That's the most important fing.
And with that, certainly agree with you that Bowyer doesn't know his best XI yet.
But I doubt we'll ever see Bowyer play his strongest team, settled and integrated as a unit, playing week after week.
That's not his way.
He firmly believes in rotating players. It's the way he's always picked the team ever since he became manager.
But we are not seeing our strongest team.
As for Chuks, he will never be able to play 90 if we don't allow him to start games more often. I do also see we don't have the impact forward we need to bring on when Chuks is tiring.
I dread to think how we will play vs Ipswich, but we do tend to turn up vs decent opposition.
I think we completely underestimated Burton tonight.
1. Start Chuks
2. If centre back is available, play them
3.JUST FUCKING START CHUKS
If he doesn't start Saturday I will be fuming with Bowyer.
It's a small chance that a team will have all 4 CBs injured or unfit to start.
But it happened to us this month.
Under the wage cap, to sign another CB would have been an extravagance - don't forget young Ronnie Barker has already proved his worth.
He'd be capable as cover on the bench and an occasional start.
We got Matthews - he's a known commodity at Charlton and had an impressive year with us last season.
He fits in. No brainer to sign him as an after deadline free agent.
I believe you're forgetting that we were let down at the last minute signing Rocket Ronnie Schwartz.
Smyth might not be a 'fox in the box', but with his attitude and pace, he's has looked very useful ..... a goal and an assist in his last 2 appearances, for example.
If it hadn't been for the wage cap, we probably could have signed other strikers.
But because of the embargo and with wage limitations, which quality proven strikers would have been available at the last minute?
Amos, Gunter, Matthews, Pratley, Shinnie, Gilbey and Bogle all had their worst games of the season. I expect them to come back with a steely determination that it won't happen again. Maatsen also had his worst game too, but I think for him he is simply trying to do too much. It's no use expecting him to be the stylish wing back putting crosses into the box and being the assured defender covering for the fact that his neighbouring defenders are out of position. He'll only end up tying his feet in knots - as indeed he did. Maddison was another in the worst performances club, and for him it was quite a feat, because he managed to surpass some pretty sad turnouts in his short Charlton career.
As for what went wrong exactly, the low energy was the biggest worry for me. I understand things don't always come off but the lackadaisical opening half hour was a real shocker. Just why were so many of our team not up to speed? Some awful passing, especially at the back. Bad decision making: when we played it along the ground, why try to walk it through the tightest patch of defenders? When we're playing it long, why is our target man so isolated? Some awful defending: the worst of which was a player standing in the box, whilst they were attacking, and this bloke (might have been Watson, but I'm not certain) literally stood there with his hands on his knees. Unsurprisingly, that was another goal.
Got to do better next time. No excuses.
The salary cap and delays in the takeover caused by Elliott and Farnell are the reason we couldn't bring in other players at the same time as Gilbey and Washington, Bowyer even admitted we lost a few players because of it.
Personally I don't even see Bogle as a bad signing. Useful option for rotation with Chuks, he does need to remember he's the big man up top and not a number 10 which is where he keeps ending up... Sitting much deeper than his partner, in fact so deep the whole midfield are often ahead of him when the ball falls to him.
You state Charlie Barker has proven his worth, Bowyer obviously doesn't see it as we do. He chose to have two CB's on the bench that weren't match fit. Barker didn't even make the bench. Bowyer then chose not to use either of those despite it being clear Gunter and Pratley were being overrun from the first 5 minutes.
At 2-0 with the 5 sub rule, we should have at very least brought Pearce on. If Barker had been there, I'd have brought them both on. Neither Gunter or Pratley hid, which is to their credit, but I expect seasoned pros not to hide...
The one thing I am actually genuinely concerned about is this line from Bowyer that we spent the whole break working on our shape. If that's so, why have we looked so disorganised the last 2 games?
"Bogle has already had more touches than he did at Gillingham."
Nice observation, Greg ... but that's largely because of Bogle's inability to control the ball.
First touch? Bogle's first touch consists of about ten touches.
He out-euells Jason Euell.
“He covers every blade of grass, but that’s only because his first touch is crap.”
“Carlton Palmer can trap the ball further than I can kick it”.
Is Bogle at the same level?
1) play centre halves at centre half. Not midfielders or right backs. Pearce/Oshilaja could have done 45 mins each with Barker being the other CH. It seems we are back to square pegs in round holes. Didnt work then either.
2) from what I've seen this season Morgan is one of our best midfielders & should be starting when he can. Seems to have made a difference this evening & I hope that the penny has dropped now for Bows.
3) surely Aneke can start & play 70 mins. Get ahead in a game THEN you can take him off. Not the other way round.
4) teams now know that you only have to go ahead in a game to beat us. I think that's now 19 games we've conceded first & not even drawn, let alone won. I'm sure someone will check but I bet other teams know this. Doncaster came back from being 2-0 behind tonight to win. Pompey done it recently too. Teams do it week in & week out. We don't.
5) When did football change that 3rd tier footballers think they are Maradona. You are playing in League 1 because you are not good enough for the Premier League. Your first job as a defender is to clear the ball, not try to play fancy football around your own 18 yard box.
6) I said on the Gillingham post match thread, on the "where are the goals going to come from" thread and on both tonights pre match & match thread........we don't score enough & would lose tonight. I'm not pleased that I predicted it, but its patently obvious. We have very little goal threat up front, a midfield that is slow & who's first pass is either backwards or sideways and defenders who want to pass it between themselves. We have very little flair or oomph. Combine that with knowing that if we concede first we aren't going to win it's hardly rocket science to think we need to score first to have any chance in a game.
7) I'm not a stats man but I do remember stuff I hear/read. Nottingham Forests' 78/79 European Cup winning side played 63 matches that season. In March they played 9 matches in April 10. The pitches went pristine as they are now & only 1 sub was allowed in those days. I believe most of the players played over 50 matches that year, some almost all of them. There was no "rotating" or "resting" of players. Play your best 11 & stick to it.
Bogle has got a lot of ability, but he is too greedy to play the target man role. Always tries too much, and wants to run at defenders. He ignores easy passes into our midfield, and never looks for his strike partner.
Are you forgetting Saturday when we conceded first and drew?
Sack cloth & ashes for me now then.....
Don't pass it around at the back if your players make such basic mistakes.
I do think Aneke and Washington can reach 30 between them. Bogle may get 5, but I'm not sure how many will be clear cut shots. Smyth I'd expect 5 as well. A whole 40 goals... woo.
Bowyer believes we can pass it around like Barcelona. We can't.
If we're getting tightly pressed stop playing the dangerous game.
In the case of Morgan my instinct is to agree with you, to be honest, but Chuks is so fragile for a big bloke that I honestly don't think Lee has any alternative but to nurse him in the way that he does. If he starts and does nothing after the 45 minutes or so he can play what then? I don't see Bogle as an impact sub but he can at least soften defences up for Chuks.