Morgan and Aneke did well, Washington wasted good chances, Maddison. Well what can you say about Maddison. Everything broke down on him. Morgan showed how poor Marcus was.
The rest were well below par, slow and didn't adapt their game soon enough.
Sometimes you need to go long just to make the other team have a different problem to worry about.
We're a better team than we showed tonight and Ipswich got pumped too.
Lee Bowyer's Red and White Army
Bowyer refuses to go long though. I know I've said it numerous times, but I asked him why he didn't mix it up a bit, when it seemed the fannying around , passing sideways and backwards was clearly not working (like tonight) and he said that's the way he wants to play to keep possession.
Hmmmm. All very well if you actually keep possession. Inniss and Famewo are excellent. Our defence with them in was magnificent. We missed them so so much in the last two matches.
However much we miss them the first two goals were simply down to mistakes and poor concentration. They were avoidable but credit to Burton for pressurising us.
not read thread but probs all been said - lucky maddison has a reputation to live off coz otherwise you'd be looking to offload asap - ridiculous we have all 4 centre halfs injured - clear after 10 it wasn't the game / ground for pissing it around at the back and midfield not fit / dynamic / sharp enough for it to work last night anyway - no pace up top or wide - other than that.... i'm sure LB will get it sorted and that starts with dropping maddison until he livens up or plays in a position where he might liven up, wherever that is - jury still out on watson - 1 gear only - can see what he has but not sure its enough
Totally wrong team selection, two defenders with a lot of experience in central defence left on the sidelines and a makeshift pair make a mess of the job .. Pratley's role is in midfield where he was sorely missed .. it seems Bowyer is/was desperate to play both Matthews AND Gunter even if Gunter is not really suited to central defence .. despite the 'strengthening' of the striker corps, the goal tally is woeful for a squad with promotion ambitions .. injuries to key players can't (or shouldn't) be helped, dodgy team selections can.
Ipswich, like us are going through an inconsistent phase .. we really need to get well back on track this weekend and give them a hiding .. negative defensive tactics allied to dodgy defending just will not do .. Hull gave them a bloody nose last night, we need to do the same to restore belief and confidence
Watching the Burton goals again, you can clearly see Burton had done their homework on us.
First goal, watch the movement of their number 10 ....... he's clearly been told to anticipate the square ball across our defence - and he's moving to intercept the moment Gunther shapes to make the pass.
Clear as day that the passing back and forth across our back 4 is a vulnerability ready to be exploited by aware opponents. If it's a vulnerability, why is it in our gameplan? That's Bowyer's responsibility.
The 2nd goal, Amos cock up .......... why is a keeper trying to short pass a ball in his own box under pressure? Under pressure, it has to go high and long, clear the lines - hit it towards the strikers, wide into space, Row Z, anywhere - but for gawd's sake, don't fanny around in your own box, clear the lines! It's basic.
Again, Burton were wise that the short ground pass from the keeper was part of our game plan - and they were anticipating it straightaway; at best, it was a real hospital ball to Watson.
Incidentally, unlike the 3rd goal (aaaargh!), neither of those 2 goals were caused by not having a specialist CB on the pitch. You can blame those individual players, of course ..... but they were playing to instructions.
IMO that defensive possession gameplan was the culprit - it just invites pressure and interception. It's been rumbled. It's our vulnerability.
Hmmm, you may be right, but I don't think myself that their tactic would have succeeded with Inniss and Famewo. The latter in particular would be too smart for that, he would have read the striker's movement, turned and played it elsewhere. If we have been 'found out' as you're suggesting then we will see. I don't believe that their tactics would have worked with the back four from our no goals conceded run. They were solid and gave confidence to the whole team.
Totally wrong team selection, two defenders with a lot of experience in central defence left on the sidelines and a makeshift pair make a mess of the job .. Pratley's role is in midfield where he was sorely missed .. it seems Bowyer is/was desperate to play both Matthews AND Gunter even if Gunter is not really suited to central defence .. despite the 'strengthening' of the striker corps, the goal tally is woeful for a squad with promotion ambitions .. injuries to key players can't (or shouldn't) be helped, dodgy team selections can.
Ipswich, like us are going through an inconsistent phase .. we really need to get well back on track this weekend and give them a hiding .. negative defensive tactics allied to dodgy defending just will not do .. Hull gave them a bloody nose last night, we need to do the same to restore belief and confidence
Watching the Burton goals again, you can clearly see Burton had done their homework on us.
First goal, watch the movement of their number 10 ....... he's clearly been told to anticipate the square ball across our defence - and he's moving to intercept the moment Gunther shapes to make the pass.
Clear as day that the passing back and forth across our back 4 is a vulnerability ready to be exploited by aware opponents. If it's a vulnerability, why is it in our gameplan? That's Bowyer's responsibility.
The 2nd goal, Amos cock up .......... why is a keeper trying to short pass a ball in his own box under pressure? Under pressure, it has to go high and long, clear the lines - hit it towards the strikers, wide into space, Row Z, anywhere - but for gawd's sake, don't fanny around in your own box, clear the lines! It's basic.
Again, Burton were wise that the short ground pass from the keeper was part of our game plan - and they were anticipating it straightaway; at best, it was a real hospital ball to Watson.
Incidentally, unlike the 3rd goal (aaaargh!), neither of those 2 goals were caused by not having a specialist CB on the pitch. You can blame those individual players, of course ..... but they were playing to instructions.
IMO that defensive possession gameplan was the culprit - it just invites pressure and interception. It's been rumbled. It's our vulnerability.
Hmmm, you may be right, but I don't think myself that their tactic would have succeeded with Inniss and Famewo. The latter in particular would be too smart for that, he would have read the striker's movement, turned and played it elsewhere. If we have been 'found out' as you're suggesting then we will see. I don't believe that their tactics would have worked with the back four from our no goals conceded run. They were solid and gave confidence to the whole team.
But the point is we don't have the back 4 from our successful run. Bowyer has to manage the squad and the players have to cut out daft mistakes- I'm sure both Gunter and Amos must be upset by the mistakes.
Good for Josh but he didn't do it for Cafc too often unless we were playing Bristol Rovers. Josh did better defending corners than attacking corners hr Worked hard but he needed a new challenge and we needed a new striker. Taylor was a class above Magenis and so was Grant after his loan to Crawley. I prefer Aneke to Josh and I like Washington as someone's who knows where the ball might drop in the box.
Joe Pigott scores for Wimbledon and Clarke scored for Sheffield United when he left Charlton after an unsuccessful period. Even Lee Novak who couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo for Cafc ( remember one game when he missed 4 good chances with his head at the valley) scored a few for scunny after leaving.
Our players haven't become shite after two games but why so many had bad games is something that needs to be put right by Lee and the Coaches and most importantly the players. A critical 48 hours of honest talking and egos taking a bashing may be needed.
I would love to observe a professional football training sessions and the discussions that follow a poor defeat. Who keeps quiet and who speaks out !
So have we all decided why we played like a bag of shite last night?
No?
I think we underestimated them from the coaching staff and players to the fans.
Not sure that’s true really, at least from the coaching staff perspective. I refuse to believe Lee Bowyer or Jackson approached this game any differently to how they would approach any other game.
Let’s not gloss over the fact that they had a lot of players back after isolation and are fighting for their lives. As many have already said, despite playing poorly, we’d have probably won that if we didn’t gift them a 2-0 head-start.
I think another factor that may have played a part was that Burton's pitch is pretty compact compared to most. It is easier to press when there is less space. That isn't to negate the other valid issues, but it may have played a part too.
Totally wrong team selection, two defenders with a lot of experience in central defence left on the sidelines and a makeshift pair make a mess of the job .. Pratley's role is in midfield where he was sorely missed .. it seems Bowyer is/was desperate to play both Matthews AND Gunter even if Gunter is not really suited to central defence .. despite the 'strengthening' of the striker corps, the goal tally is woeful for a squad with promotion ambitions .. injuries to key players can't (or shouldn't) be helped, dodgy team selections can.
Ipswich, like us are going through an inconsistent phase .. we really need to get well back on track this weekend and give them a hiding .. negative defensive tactics allied to dodgy defending just will not do .. Hull gave them a bloody nose last night, we need to do the same to restore belief and confidence
Watching the Burton goals again, you can clearly see Burton had done their homework on us.
First goal, watch the movement of their number 10 ....... he's clearly been told to anticipate the square ball across our defence - and he's moving to intercept the moment Gunther shapes to make the pass.
Clear as day that the passing back and forth across our back 4 is a vulnerability ready to be exploited by aware opponents. If it's a vulnerability, why is it in our gameplan? That's Bowyer's responsibility.
The 2nd goal, Amos cock up .......... why is a keeper trying to short pass a ball in his own box under pressure? Under pressure, it has to go high and long, clear the lines - hit it towards the strikers, wide into space, Row Z, anywhere - but for gawd's sake, don't fanny around in your own box, clear the lines! It's basic.
Again, Burton were wise that the short ground pass from the keeper was part of our game plan - and they were anticipating it straightaway; at best, it was a real hospital ball to Watson.
Incidentally, unlike the 3rd goal (aaaargh!), neither of those 2 goals were caused by not having a specialist CB on the pitch. You can blame those individual players, of course ..... but they were playing to instructions.
IMO that defensive possession gameplan was the culprit - it just invites pressure and interception. It's been rumbled. It's our vulnerability.
In the pre match chat I opined that Burton were running out of competitive puff. Our performance last night has put a gale force wind back in their sails, please excuse the mixed metaphors. I have literally just had a phone conversation with another devoted Addick who watches all the games on Valley Pass and we discussed and agreed on 99% of what you have written. Basically too much f *ing about at the back and in midfield to no real purpose. This division cries out for a mix and match silk and sackcloth approach. When in doubt, hack it out as far away as possible and save the sublime passes for situations that are not fraught with danger
Also, it is remarkable how many teams with the least possession win games nowadays, teams that have the players with the ability to attack and score on the break . Only the very best Premier teams have the ability to pass through midfield and play consistently from the back without getting into too much trouble.
Anyway. last night was an expensive lesson. Cliché time: 'there are no easy games' and even the bottom club in dismal form can find a way to exploit your vulnerabilities and dubious game plan. Let's hope that any complacency has been shown up and that the players are given instruction and have the ability to play the moment and not just blindly attempt to 'always play good football. Good football is winning and not losing 4-2 .. AND, leave the diamonds in the bracelets and please let's get back to boring but effective 4 4 2 or a compromise 3 4 3.
PWR. Just watched Lee’s post match interview. Boy oh boy, did he have a long face! He was just about lost for words but to his credit he told it like it was........a pile of shyte and would have used seven substitutes had we been allowed them. Totally inexcusable from just about everyone, particularly some senior players whom he wouldn’t have expected such a poor performance. Sounds like he gave them a right bollocking too.......a bollocking well deserved if you ask me.
Hopefully LB has learned from this. He seems to be developing the mindset of containment at the start of a game and then slowly wearing the opposition down, sneak a goal or two, and end up controlling the game. I believe that's partly why he starts Bogle and not Aneke who I think is a far superior player. It's a mindset. But, this can only work if you have a solid CB pairing and with players playing in their natural positions. And yesterday we didn't, went two goals down from woeful defending and were left chasing the game. In my opinion LB should take the flak for that. The players had obviously been instructed to start like that and play it slowly out from the back. Maatsen was a classic example. Until we were 2 down whenever he got the ball he was always looking for the backwards or sideways pass. That must have been what he had been instructed to do, part of the game plan.
I can understand if LB wants to play like this and it works if executed correctly but it's not the most attractive style of play. And you can argue that, against the team at the bottom of the league, why adopt that approach in the first place? Whatever happened to the good old fashioned approach of exciting
football - two big centre forwards, two fast wingers, a fast attack
backed up by a strong defense and midfield. We do have the players, but that's for another discussion.
So, yes Lee, let's call it just a bad day at the office but I don't think you got it right yesterday. You're learning as well.
Sure, but it wasn't defended properly from the corner ....... free header (that Amos saved) should have been meat and drink for a specialist CB. It cost us that goal.
The other problem though was that we ended up with 2 defenders against 3 attacking players at the back post, and that's a fault with the marking in general, rather than a lack of CBs. If we had another couple of players at the back post, one might have cleared the ball away after Amos's save.
Sure, but it wasn't defended properly from the corner ....... free header (that Amos saved) should have been meat and drink for a specialist CB. It cost us that goal.
The other problem though was that we ended up with 2 defenders against 3 attacking players at the back post, and that's a fault with the marking in general, rather than a lack of CBs. If we had another couple of players at the back post, one might have cleared the ball away after Amos's save.
Yeah, that's a fair point ....... although defenders can't foresee where the ball will fall after Amos' save - which just as easily could have fallen at the feet of a defender and cleared - but instead fell at the feet of the Burton player, who couldn't miss. Them's the breaks in football.
It was though, the free header that drew Amos' save that was the issue ..... surely a specialist CB would have cleared that? If that's defended properly and headed away, then there's no save from Amos or the loose ball that the goal was scored from. That was my point really.
A shockingly clueless performance that would not have looked out of place on Blackheath one Sunday morning. Virtually all the players hugely below par. Only Chuks and Albie can hold their head up after that, and perhaps Conor too. Everyone else should be ashamed. And that includes Lee Bowyer, who was tactically inept. Playing out from the back does NOT mean interminable inaccurate passing around the back line. Going direct does NOT mean simple pumping it for Chuks to go after. He was far too slow to identify the problems and far too slow to respond.
Burton knew what our game plan was and countered it very easily, and finally put the kind of pressure on our makeshift central defence that betrayed their inexperience in those positions. They thoroughly deserved their victory and in doing so, cast serious doubts on our promotion pretensions.
Simply fucking dreadful.
Completely agree with this. I wasn’t happy after Saturday, and I thought they would put it right with a more inventive and creative performance tonight. How wrong was I. It was so bad it’s difficult to know where to start. As others have mentioned, the injuries at the back have thrown us, but I thought Pratley and Gunther were woeful tonight. This sense of Pratley being Mr Dependable needs to be reigned in. He gave away a pen at Lincoln, was at fault for a goal against Donny and looked ropey on Saturday, and was really put through the mill tonight. Gunther not much better. I think Louis Mendez did a bit on Bowyer saying he wasn’t too concerned with the injuries at the back and how he thinks those two are more than capable of stepping in. Absolutely not. No pace, Pratley playing for fouls and passing it sideways, Gunther exposed and was probably one of the worst out there tonight. Maatsen was poor, but he’s young, and to his credit he was still trying to get forward late on. Hopefully he’ll learn more tonight than he has in all the games he’s played so far.
The midfield is so pedestrian. They all take turns to drop deep and do very little. Shinnie, Gilbey, Watson. None of them had a clue tonight. Maddison was poor. Only when Morgan came on did it look like we had any guile. Up top was just as bad, apart from Aneke. As you say Davo, only Aneke and Morgan came out of tonight with any credit. The rest should take a long hard look at themselves. Bowyer as well. He doesn’t know his best team yet, and I get he’s dealing with all our centre backs being out, but we’re not Man City/Liverpool. Rotating is all well and good, but the players on the pitch have to have an identity, shape and a game plan. At the moment, it seems like he’s just guessing with this team selection.
Honestly, watching that felt like being back in Luzon/Peeters/Frayere era. 1 point from these 2 games is really poor. Really poor
credit to Burton. They closed us down, went for it and got their rewards, albeit through some mistakes, but I would take their approach over our backwards/sideways shit show any day
Of course your defending can suffer when you are chasing a game. What killed us was going 2 down through two stupid errors that should not happen even at our level.
You just know that if Neil Warnock had been our manager last night, with exactly the same available players, we would have won. Pearce would've started, Pratley would've been in midfield and we might have seen Aneke up top with Bogle from the off.
We can't perform like that again this season and its up to LB and his staff to make sure we don't.
Having got my head round that pile of shit...I can talk about it now!
Bowyer is a talent and will go far BUT last night was down to his refusal to adapt the way we play to our opponents to match them.
That first goal should have had Pearce on instead of Gunter. A proper centre half to shore things up and get us on an even footing again.
This ridiculous passing out from the back is getting on my nerves slightly, it works against the more technical teams but against the teams who rely on hard work, its just aksing for trouble and we found it last night.
When we did start going over the top, they werent comfortable in the slightest and thats when we troubled them most and really put that pressure on but they defended well.
Unlike us....havent seen anything that bad watching Charlton in all my life...mistakes happen but these were soft and needless and we MUST do better...agree Barker should have started...inexperienced yes but no denying he is a talent and would have relished that battle against that striker, who I personally thought was shite! Only had strength to his game.
It looked to me that we set up as the team out of form, try to nick a win...have a go at a team that doesnt have confidence and pile it on!
Next game needs a proper CB and not a makeshift defence.
Lets see the reaction on Saturday but this has got to be a blip and nothing more.
Have we been found out? Is Bows revealing his limitations? Has TS learnt all the chords to VFR? Will i recover, from that dull feeling in my nads from last nights pathetic performance from the lads?
Only time will tell... Onwards to Saturday, no faint heart from me, it will be just like us to tear Ipswich a new one or not!
You just know that if Neil Warnock had been our manager last night, with exactly the same available players, we would have won. Pearce would've started, Pratley would've been in midfield and we might have seen Aneke up top with Bogle from the off.
We can't perform like that again this season and its up to LB and his staff to make sure we don't.
That's what you get with forty years managerial as opposed to three.
You just know that if Neil Warnock had been our manager last night, with exactly the same available players, we would have won. Pearce would've started, Pratley would've been in midfield and we might have seen Aneke up top with Bogle from the off.
We can't perform like that again this season and its up to LB and his staff to make sure we don't.
Interesting take. What would Alex Ferguson and Jose Mourinho do?
Hindsight bias is the key phrase here. We could have done all of that and still lost, with Chuks and Pearce likely breaking down.
I've just watched the goals on Sky Sports - I couldn't face it last night. I seem to remember a Sunday morning game in my youth being a bit like that after seven or eight of the team had been at wedding the previous night.
Comments
No?
If we have been 'found out' as you're suggesting then we will see. I don't believe that their tactics would have worked with the back four from our no goals conceded run. They were solid and gave confidence to the whole team.
Onwards and upwards...
Good for Josh but he didn't do it for Cafc too often unless we were playing Bristol Rovers. Josh did better defending corners than attacking corners hr Worked hard but he needed a new challenge and we needed a new striker. Taylor was a class above Magenis and so was Grant after his loan to Crawley. I prefer Aneke to Josh and I like Washington as someone's who knows where the ball might drop in the box.
Joe Pigott scores for Wimbledon and Clarke scored for Sheffield United when he left Charlton after an unsuccessful period.
Even Lee Novak who couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo for Cafc ( remember one game when he missed 4 good chances with his head at the valley) scored a few for scunny after leaving.
Our players haven't become shite after two games but why so many had bad games is something that needs to be put right by Lee and the Coaches and most importantly the players. A critical 48 hours of honest talking and egos taking a bashing may be needed.
I would love to observe a professional football training sessions and the discussions that follow a poor defeat.
Who keeps quiet and who speaks out !
Let’s not gloss over the fact that they had a lot of players back after isolation and are fighting for their lives. As many have already said, despite playing poorly, we’d have probably won that if we didn’t gift them a 2-0 head-start.
I have literally just had a phone conversation with another devoted Addick who watches all the games on Valley Pass and we discussed and agreed on 99% of what you have written. Basically too much f *ing about at the back and in midfield to no real purpose. This division cries out for a mix and match silk and sackcloth approach. When in doubt, hack it out as far away as possible and save the sublime passes for situations that are not fraught with danger
Also, it is remarkable how many teams with the least possession win games nowadays, teams that have the players with the ability to attack and score on the break . Only the very best Premier teams have the ability to pass through midfield and play consistently from the back without getting into too much trouble.
Anyway. last night was an expensive lesson. Cliché time: 'there are no easy games' and even the bottom club in dismal form can find a way to exploit your vulnerabilities and dubious game plan. Let's hope that any complacency has been shown up and that the players are given instruction and have the ability to play the moment and not just blindly attempt to 'always play good football.
Good football is winning and not losing 4-2 .. AND, leave the diamonds in the bracelets and please let's get back to boring but effective 4 4 2 or a compromise 3 4 3.
Just watched Lee’s post match interview.
Boy oh boy, did he have a long face!
He was just about lost for words but to his credit he told it like it was........a pile of shyte and would have used seven substitutes had we been allowed them.
Totally inexcusable from just about everyone, particularly some senior players whom he wouldn’t have expected such a poor performance.
Sounds like he gave them a right bollocking too.......a bollocking well deserved if you ask me.
It was though, the free header that drew Amos' save that was the issue ..... surely a specialist CB would have cleared that?
If that's defended properly and headed away, then there's no save from Amos or the loose ball that the goal was scored from. That was my point really.
We can't perform like that again this season and its up to LB and his staff to make sure we don't.
Bowyer is a talent and will go far BUT last night was down to his refusal to adapt the way we play to our opponents to match them.
That first goal should have had Pearce on instead of Gunter. A proper centre half to shore things up and get us on an even footing again.
This ridiculous passing out from the back is getting on my nerves slightly, it works against the more technical teams but against the teams who rely on hard work, its just aksing for trouble and we found it last night.
When we did start going over the top, they werent comfortable in the slightest and thats when we troubled them most and really put that pressure on but they defended well.
Unlike us....havent seen anything that bad watching Charlton in all my life...mistakes happen but these were soft and needless and we MUST do better...agree Barker should have started...inexperienced yes but no denying he is a talent and would have relished that battle against that striker, who I personally thought was shite! Only had strength to his game.
It looked to me that we set up as the team out of form, try to nick a win...have a go at a team that doesnt have confidence and pile it on!
Next game needs a proper CB and not a makeshift defence.
Lets see the reaction on Saturday but this has got to be a blip and nothing more.
Is Bows revealing his limitations?
Has TS learnt all the chords to VFR?
Will i recover, from that dull feeling in my nads from last nights pathetic performance from the lads?
Only time will tell...
Onwards to Saturday, no faint heart from me, it will be just like us to tear Ipswich a new one or not!
We're relying on you.
#masicatneverwrong