If you want a perfect example of the selective blindness that loyalty causes, some posters are only just realising that Bowyer might not be a very nice person.
Nailed it - I have noticed this as well. As I have mentioned before, this is the man who:
Banned for 8 weeks by Charlton for his drug habits. Only played 40 odd games before leaving but somehow his time is treated as a messiah
Charged with affray, trashing a fast food restaurant and making racist remarks to the owner.
Once again caught up in an incident with (again) an Asian guy outside a nightclub which he got off with but begs the question why he got himself caught up in the first place.
Fought his own player on the pitch swinging punches left right and centre.
Now multiple rumours of bullying on the training ground.
‘One of our own’? Not in my book.
Powelly may not have been the greatest manager with us Hudders and Southend. But when someone says One of Our Own and Proper Charlton - step forward that man. Ten times classier than what we currently have.
Come on really. Dragging up some things from the past and one that he was found not guilty for to say he is not a nice person is ridiculous.
Apart from rumours of bullying that seems to come from reports of him making JW cry what has he done in the last few years to make you think he is not a nice person?
With regards to if he did make JW cry we do not know in what context it happened, JW might have been sensitive and got upset, Bowyer may have lost it and apologised we just don't know enough to start claims of bullying/not a nice person. Its the sort of thing that will now be gospel and taken as fact.
Its clear Bowyer has lost the dressing to me and it may because of instances within the dressing room and poor man management but that doe snot make him not a nice person.
I’m pretty sure that whenever he came back to Charlton as either a Leeds or West Ham player all of the above dominated any talk around him and if I remember he riled the fans up left right and centre when he was on the pitch. It got toxic but that’s now forgotten.
Back to the point on Powell. Yes this is stuff in the past, but I am pretty sure Chris Powell, Matt Holland, Mark Kinsella, Keith Jones, Claus Jensen, Andy Hunt, Clive Mendonda etc etc don’t have a Cv like that. Managers show character when the going is tough - it’s all well and good saying he was nice at the start but this isn’t getting any easier and I think it’s fair enough to question his suitability for the role (in the current circumstances) based on character up to now.
Tbh I interviewed someone for a senior role at my business and when I searched for examples of their work found a story on the Mail that they got caught up in a sexism case at the Beeb and were fired. That was in the past but sorry I wasn’t willing to take that person on board.
And before anyone asks - no I have never taken drugs, smashed up a McDonalds, or even come close to a situation like at Leeds.
Ive also never had a successful football career - but then again I’m unlikely to manage a club anytime soon so not really relevant.
Its forgotten because it is irrelevant and such a nothing point. I don't really get what that has got to do with anything and why you think that adds any weight to him being not a nice person.
To me I think you have a valid point in saying his character of being a win at all costs type old school may be the issue here and its his first test of this sort but again that don't make him not a nice person.
I could look back at things I have said/done in my past that I am not proud off and others may think because of that I am not a nice person. I would like to think that I have grown/learned and as a whole am a nice person, I think the majority of people are.
The game has changed. Bowyer’s a dinosaur. Always been a bully, hasn’t he? Wasn’t he convicted for it?
Football managers aren’t above the law where workplace bullying is concerned. Bullies need outing.
recently read an article about Andy Petterson who said he liked Curbs because he wasn’t a bully like most managers. Suggests it’s a massive problem in the game and maybe the next FA initiative.
So when Bowyer goes, we have a limited choice of replacements, Curbs and a minority of other managers.
Reading back through some of my comments, I've realised some may think I'm too harsh on Bowyer.
I just don't understand why he's still in charge & why some on here continue to defend this shitshow. I get frustrated & maybe that frustration is now coming across as obsessive, but I understand everyone has different opinions.
Think I need to take a break from this thread for a while. Apologies everyone
If, and I hasten to add if, these are true then I have no idea why he’s still around.
TS needs to get to the truth.
because I suspect much of it has been exaggerated out of proportion - not saying there's no truth in it at all, but I suspect there's a chinese whisper effect here.
TS I'm sure is having many conversations behind the scenes and he'll be very well aware of alot of the fan unrest.
So much supposition being dressed up as fact. Everything people know is based on third hand accounts and the circumstances, detail, background can get lost along the way.
Football dressing rooms where teams are underperfoming are rarely happy dressing rooms
Football dressing rooms will always be to a degree potentially hostile environments
Off top of my head, ask players under Shankly, Ferguson, Clough, Mourinho, Allardyce, Warnock, Wilder, Dyche, Moyes, Pearson, Keane, Hughes, Souness, Strachan Pearce etc on how they treated players. Don’t even bother thinking about European managers like Capello, Sarri etc as they are based purely on discipline and volatility.
Bowyer seems a bit ‘old skool’ In approach. That's not a right or wrong, that’s just his style. He desperately wants to win, he sets standards and he is honest with players who fall short of those standards. It’s not a style I’d personally take but it’s not unique to football. Loads of our fans want Warnock as manager whenever our job comes available.
Ask a 1996 Steve Brown or John Robinson what there thoughts of Curbishley’s management during another spell out the side and I’m sure it won’t have been flattering.
Its an massive leap from what might have been a heated dressing after a defeat and Bowyer laying into Williams for pulling out of a key tackle that led to the defeat, to then get to ‘bully’. That would happen in 95% of dressing rooms.
Good reasoned post. There are days when I loathe the internet, people hearing a rumour and an hour later it’s all fact. Do we as Charlton fans always need a figure to hate?
Probably time to give the site a wide berth. Seems like one witch hunt after another these days.
Tell you one thing, this thread highlights there is a hell of a lot more education to be done around mental health. Men's mental health especially.
Bowyer himself included.
Just listened to the pre-match interview against Blackpool. Bowyer would do well to complete a mental health awareness course. He believes himself to be mentally strong and I understand why he doesn't get it, but that training may help him understand that not everyone has his same mindset.
Perhaps I could provide a small example of what Lee Bowyer is like, and regurgitate an anecdote I told once before. I "won" a chance at the Crossbar challenge and nominated my teenage son for reasons you can guess. Part of the package is to train with u18s at Sparrows Lane a couple of days before the game. Our session was the day after the takeover by our fake sheikh and the charm merchant Southall - November 2019? I walked in to Sparrows lane reception a few minutes after my son and found him chatting to Lee and Keith Peacock. Lee asked why he was there and then offered to coach my son. He spent 30 minutes coaching my son, with the U18s joining in, and seeming very relaxed in his company. Lee was patience itself and could not have been more friendly. Given he had a major game to manage the next day and probably umpteen meetings with new the owners and other leeches, it was act of kindness I won't forget.
I haven't got a Scooby what happens in the changing room. But I do know the Lee Bowyer I met for half an hour was a relaxed and generous man despite the whirl of events that surrounded him at that time.
Tell you one thing, this thread highlights there is a hell of a lot more education to be done around mental health. Men's mental health especially.
I can't belive the some of the reactions to it, and people wonder why there is a thread about "why is it so hard to talk about mental health" almost permanently on the front page.
- I'm turning into the current Squad and CBA to finish this off after starting it in an okay fashion, as it's harder to apply myself to do so, than just give up.
"I know I haven't become a bad manager, I am telling the players the right things every day. You don't have players come here and go onto better things if you're not good, if you don't know what you're talking about. That's me and my coaching staff.
For whatever reason some players in this team that can't take in that information, that can't stop making mistakes. I can't control that, I'm sorry, all I can do now is bring them out the team"
He can't seem to understand that tactically we need to allow for our players mistakes in our tactics and formation etc. The tactics have to be achievable by the players available. You play to their strengths and prepare for their weaknesses.
Tell you one thing, this thread highlights there is a hell of a lot more education to be done around mental health. Men's mental health especially.
I can't belive the some of the reactions to it, and people wonder why there is a thread about "why is it so hard to talk about mental health" almost permanently on the front page.
Exactly mate. It's staggering how many people's reaction to hearing a rumour about a man being reduced to tears at his workplace is 'oh well, it's football'.
Perhaps I could provide a small example of what Lee Bowyer is like, and regurgitate an anecdote I told once before. I "won" a chance at the Crossbar challenge and nominated my teenage son for reasons you can guess. Part of the package is to train with u18s at Sparrows Lane a couple of days before the game. Our session was the day after the takeover by our fake sheikh and the charm merchant Southall - November 2019? I walked in to Sparrows lane reception a few minutes after my son and found him chatting to Lee and Keith Peacock. Lee asked why he was there and then offered to coach my son. He spent 30 minutes coaching my son, with the U18s joining in, and seeming very relaxed in his company. Lee was patience itself and could not have been more friendly. Given he had a major game to manage the next day and probably umpteen meetings with new the owners and other leeches, it was act of kindness I won't forget.
I haven't got a Scooby what happens in the changing room. But I do know the Lee Bowyer I met for half an hour was a relaxed and generous man despite the whirl of events that surrounded him at that time.
Outrageous. I'm fuming. He should be giving all his attention to the first team at such a critical time. No wonder we went down last year with his attention split like this. Bowyer out!
Joking ofc - A nice story and good memory for you and your son
Very different in tone to the "Bowyer needs more time" piece.
Still balanced though.
very good again from Benjy but this is spot on for me and what a few have been saying for weeks now :
'But if Sandgaard no longer believes Bowyer is the person to lead this club forward, then there is no point in hesitating as things continue to disintegrate. Alternatively though, if the plan is for Bowyer to remain regardless of the season’s outcome — relegation notwithstanding — then it’s best for everyone to know that , including the players who may feel they can just ride out the end of Bowyer’s time at the club.'
Probably been said on here before but in my opinion, 'What goes on in the dressing room, stays in the dressing room'. These allegations whether true or not do not give anyone involved any credit whatsoever.
I've written quite a few posts on this thread recently but.... I have never said 'I want Bowyer gone' or similar because even now I still hope he can turn it around. I really do. I remember watching an interview with him for the first time (about 3 years ago) and I was a little surprised to see how calm and composed he was. He looked no different than any other experienced managers. I've written (translated) at least two long articles on my Weibo page since then, just to show my Chinese followers that Lee Bowyer has changed and matured. Most of Chinese football fans only knew him for his bad behaviours (notably the on-pitch fight with Dyer) as a player. I've spent time telling them he's not what they think he is.
So it is quite sad to see him turn into a bad mode. The way he has treated some of the players is definitely wrong in my opinion. But I will never 'hate' him. How can you 'hate' him? The Wembley final is and will always be one of my fondest memories despite it seems like light years ago now. He's ten times better than most of the people that Duchatelet appointed. I had zero feelings towards those people when they were our managers. Bowyer on the other hand at least started his football career here so there's a connection. I sincerely hope he can stop the rot and the team can start to climb up the league table. But sadly the chances of it happening seem low at the moment. Is it possible that Curbs can give him some advice especially on man-mangement and how to deal with pressure as a manager?....
I've written quite a few posts on this thread recently but.... I have never said 'I want Bowyer gone' or similar because even now I still hope he can turn it around. I really do. I remember watching an interview with him for the first time (about 3 years ago) and I was a little surprised to see how calm and composed he was. He looked no different than any other experienced managers. I've written (translated) at least two long articles on my Weibo page since then, just to show my Chinese followers that Lee Bowyer has changed and matured. Most of Chinese football fans only knew him for his bad behaviours (notably the on-pitch fight with Dyer) as a player. I've spent time telling them he's not what they think he is.
So it is quite sad to see him turn into a bad mode. The way he has treated some of the players is definitely wrong in my opinion. But I will never 'hate' him. How can you 'hate' him? The Wembley final is and will always be one of my fondest memories despite it seems like light years ago now. He's ten times better than most of the people that Duchatelet appointed. I had zero feelings towards those people when they were our managers. Bowyer on the other hand at least started his football career here so there's a connection. I sincerely hope he can stop the rot and the team can start to climb up the league table. But sadly the chances of it happening seem low at the moment. Is it possible that Curbs can give him some advice especially on man-mangement and how to deal with pressure as a manager?....
Perhaps I could provide a small example of what Lee Bowyer is like, and regurgitate an anecdote I told once before. I "won" a chance at the Crossbar challenge and nominated my teenage son for reasons you can guess. Part of the package is to train with u18s at Sparrows Lane a couple of days before the game. Our session was the day after the takeover by our fake sheikh and the charm merchant Southall - November 2019? I walked in to Sparrows lane reception a few minutes after my son and found him chatting to Lee and Keith Peacock. Lee asked why he was there and then offered to coach my son. He spent 30 minutes coaching my son, with the U18s joining in, and seeming very relaxed in his company. Lee was patience itself and could not have been more friendly. Given he had a major game to manage the next day and probably umpteen meetings with new the owners and other leeches, it was act of kindness I won't forget.
I haven't got a Scooby what happens in the changing room. But I do know the Lee Bowyer I met for half an hour was a relaxed and generous man despite the whirl of events that surrounded him at that time.
Outrageous. I'm fuming. He should be giving all his attention to the first team at such a critical time. No wonder we went down last year with his attention split like this. Bowyer out!
Joking ofc - A nice story and good memory for you and your son
and my son missed as well by about a yard - shows Bows isn't a good coach!
Tell you one thing, this thread highlights there is a hell of a lot more education to be done around mental health. Men's mental health especially.
I can't belive the some of the reactions to it, and people wonder why there is a thread about "why is it so hard to talk about mental health" almost permanently on the front page.
Exactly mate. It's staggering how many people's reaction to hearing a rumour about a man being reduced to tears at his workplace is 'oh well, it's football'.
People’s dismissal of the issue could be considered as part of the problem, if those people are challenged as to why they are dismissing it, to the point of them losing their temper; this could also be a way of avoiding the issue. some people have such a stigma attached to talking about mental health that they would rather resort to violence and ridicule than tackle it (pun) head on. This does sound ridiculous I know, but it’s true and the situation is ridiculous when you look at it. But that still won’t make theses ‘old schoolers’ face the problem.
There is a lot to be said for the ‘blitz mentality’ and it did achieve a lot, but it also papered over a hell of a lot, and a lot of that is still present in our world today.
Appealing Chuks's red card is the work of the delusional. We all know CA didn't go looking to whack the seasider but he caught him bang on the jaw with a flying elbow - even without a shitforbrains egomaniac overweight bearded wankstain called Huxtable for referee, that's a red card all day long in every game. All that appealing against it is gonna achieve is adding a match or two to Chuks's suspension. I'm not sure 4 (5or6) games off for Chuks is all bad news. Rose tinted specs on: maybe, just maybe Chuks could dedicate the time to absolutely definitely getting himself y'know actually fit and strong enough to be a fulltime professional footballer, like he's been paid to be these last several years? No more of this pissing about "oh he can't play 2 games a week, we have to manage him carefully", pandering piss weak excuse making bullshit. He's nearly 28 FFS. He's supposed to be a professional athlete - chief occupational hazard, whatever the athletic pursuit, is always pain - suck it up or go do something you're better suited to.
FA's independent makeitupaswegoalong commission as predictable as ever - never let the rules get in the way of creativity. Did they weigh (that's a pun) all of Huxtable's galumphing wuckfittery and attempt to redress some of the harm done? That's obviously way way beyond their remit but it's the only rationale that fits here. Trouble is, having the glass mannequin available for selection ain't gonna help Bowyer field a side that will have a flying fornication's chance of stopping the Latics from sorting out their goal difference 😖
So if I'm correct the current state of play on behind the scenes dressing room harmony is that:
@Covered_End_Lad - has mentioned an incident where Bowyer reduced Williams to tears and other senior pros had to step in.
@MuttleyCAFC - has mentioned that Bowyer is apparently wierd/unsupportive around the younger players.
@J-Block - was told by a player in the dressing room the Bowyer has lost the plot.
If these things are true. The two questions I have are:
Why was the dressing room apparently so great during our promotion year. What's happened to change that ethos.
If things are as bad behind the scenes as people are making out, why would it change under a new set of players, and indeed would good players would even want to come to us?
We need a Matt Holland situation - where he allegedly went in to see the chairman at half time and said “we can’t play for that manager”.
I think the promotion year was an easy one for Bowyer - he had some quality players and couldn’t really go wrong. But let’s not forget, that season he still managed to handle a couple of players badly - Marshall and Fosu spring to mind. He made a hash of last season (yes he did have injury problems, the Southall saga and the Lyle Taylor situation to contend with), but the way he set us up after lockdown was a joke. We had numerous opportunities to get out of jail......Brentford away 1-0 up with 15 left. Makes dreadful substitutions and we lose 2-1. Birmingham away, shocking subs at 1-0 up and we draw.
Speaking of Taylor, Bowyer was pissed off he wasn’t going to play, but he never publicly slaughtered him in the way he has players this season. This is a bloke who left us in the shit, yet still got clapped out of the training ground.
In a nutshell, Bowyer is out of depth, lacks the fundamental man management skills that are needed and doesn’t take any responsibility.
I really hope TS pulls the trigger - if we need to lose tomorrow and Saturday for that to happen, then so be it. I’d take that if it meant we don’t have this poor excuse for a manager come Sunday.
The only surprise is that he was able to mask it for so long
Not too sure on this one, to describe Lee as a bully player seems a bit harsh, i always remember him as a commited and passionate player, who always tried, yes strongly, to win every game and win every ball, both for us and Leeds, does that make him a bully, more the sort of player we would all dream of having running things out there today. And i think this is where he may be falling down in his managerial side, wanting to kick every ball and win every game, and gets frustrated when it doesn't happen, his man management seems a bit lax maybe, but his passion for the game doesn't make him a bully.
It would be a sad end to what looked like it would be such a great partnership between Bowyer and Charlton. If the rumours are true his position is definitely untenable and with the way things are going with Bowyer in charge and seemingly no hope of a change in fortunes, we are on course for our worst league position since 1926.
I don't want to dislike Bowyer but some of the stuff that's happened recently is crossing the line. The day he turned on the 2000 fans allowed back into the Valley for not drumming up an atmosphere is the day he lost a lot of people's respect.
I said if he didn't go after the Blackpool defeat then it's likely he'll be the one to rebuild in summer. He is still here but if we do lose tonight, I wouldn't be surprised if Sandgaard does let him go.
Having read many posts relating to the rumours of what LB has done, giving credence to reasons behind this awful run. And I have already said that if these comments are true, Bowyer for me should go. What I do find strange, given how long this has been going on, is why this hasn’t this been addressed by the club? Given Charlton are a leading light, and take a strong stance regarding community trust, mental health, well being, racism, and many more social issues affecting us all these days. Surely there are people within the club, who players could relay the more toxic behaviour to, and the matter be dealt with.
2 of the nicest people associated with our club over the years would be by general agreement would be Steve Gritt and Chris Powell.
In 94 I was at the Training Ground running the line at a Reserve Team Friendly. At the end of the game Steve Gritt gave the biggest volley I have ever heard to a bunch of apprentices for not putting Equipment away.
In 2013 I was at the Training Ground watching the 1st team train as part of a package my brother had bought via this site for the Upbeats. At the send of the session Chris Powell pulled apart one of the younger professionals.
Both of the incidents would not be accepted in the 'normal' workplace today.
Neither of those incidents made me think anything less of these 2 great individuals because I accepted both incidents for what they were, football.
I'm not trying to justify any ones behaviour from the past or today but I do think a lot of context does need to be taken into account.
Comments
A great article.
Its forgotten because it is irrelevant and such a nothing point. I don't really get what that has got to do with anything and why you think that adds any weight to him being not a nice person.
To me I think you have a valid point in saying his character of being a win at all costs type old school may be the issue here and its his first test of this sort but again that don't make him not a nice person.
I could look back at things I have said/done in my past that I am not proud off and others may think because of that I am not a nice person. I would like to think that I have grown/learned and as a whole am a nice person, I think the majority of people are.
I just don't understand why he's still in charge & why some on here continue to defend this shitshow. I get frustrated & maybe that frustration is now coming across as obsessive, but I understand everyone has different opinions.
Think I need to take a break from this thread for a while. Apologies everyone
If, and I hasten to add if, these are true then I have no idea why he’s still around.
TS needs to get to the truth.
TS I'm sure is having many conversations behind the scenes and he'll be very well aware of alot of the fan unrest.
Just listened to the pre-match interview against Blackpool. Bowyer would do well to complete a mental health awareness course. He believes himself to be mentally strong and I understand why he doesn't get it, but that training may help him understand that not everyone has his same mindset.
Perhaps I could provide a small example of what Lee Bowyer is like, and regurgitate an anecdote I told once before. I "won" a chance at the Crossbar challenge and nominated my teenage son for reasons you can guess. Part of the package is to train with u18s at Sparrows Lane a couple of days before the game. Our session was the day after the takeover by our fake sheikh and the charm merchant Southall - November 2019? I walked in to Sparrows lane reception a few minutes after my son and found him chatting to Lee and Keith Peacock. Lee asked why he was there and then offered to coach my son. He spent 30 minutes coaching my son, with the U18s joining in, and seeming very relaxed in his company. Lee was patience itself and could not have been more friendly. Given he had a major game to manage the next day and probably umpteen meetings with new the owners and other leeches, it was act of kindness I won't forget.
I haven't got a Scooby what happens in the changing room. But I do know the Lee Bowyer I met for half an hour was a relaxed and generous man despite the whirl of events that surrounded him at that time.
You don't have players come here and go onto better things if you're not good, if you don't know what you're talking about. That's me and my coaching staff.
For whatever reason some players in this team that can't take in that information, that can't stop making mistakes. I can't control that, I'm sorry, all I can do now is bring them out the team"
He can't seem to understand that tactically we need to allow for our players mistakes in our tactics and formation etc. The tactics have to be achievable by the players available. You play to their strengths and prepare for their weaknesses.
Joking ofc - A nice story and good memory for you and your son
very good again from Benjy but this is spot on for me and what a few have been saying for weeks now :
'But if Sandgaard no longer believes Bowyer is the person to lead this club forward, then there is no point in hesitating as things continue to disintegrate. Alternatively though, if the plan is for Bowyer to remain regardless of the season’s outcome — relegation notwithstanding — then it’s best for everyone to know that , including the players who may feel they can just ride out the end of Bowyer’s time at the club.'
So it is quite sad to see him turn into a bad mode. The way he has treated some of the players is definitely wrong in my opinion. But I will never 'hate' him. How can you 'hate' him? The Wembley final is and will always be one of my fondest memories despite it seems like light years ago now. He's ten times better than most of the people that Duchatelet appointed. I had zero feelings towards those people when they were our managers. Bowyer on the other hand at least started his football career here so there's a connection. I sincerely hope he can stop the rot and the team can start to climb up the league table. But sadly the chances of it happening seem low at the moment. Is it possible that Curbs can give him some advice especially on man-mangement and how to deal with pressure as a manager?....
This. Post of the week for me
and my son missed as well by about a yard - shows Bows isn't a good coach!
I knew I should have taken it...
some people have such a stigma attached to talking about mental health that they would rather resort to violence and ridicule than tackle it (pun) head on. This does sound ridiculous I know, but it’s true and the situation is ridiculous when you look at it.
But that still won’t make theses ‘old schoolers’ face the problem.
There is a lot to be said for the ‘blitz mentality’ and it did achieve a lot, but it also papered over a hell of a lot, and a lot of that is still present in our world today.
Did they weigh (that's a pun) all of Huxtable's galumphing wuckfittery and attempt to redress some of the harm done?
That's obviously way way beyond their remit but it's the only rationale that fits here.
Trouble is, having the glass mannequin available for selection ain't gonna help Bowyer field a side that will have a flying fornication's chance of stopping the Latics from sorting out their goal difference 😖
And i think this is where he may be falling down in his managerial side, wanting to kick every ball and
win every game, and gets frustrated when it doesn't happen, his man management seems a bit lax maybe, but his passion for the game doesn't make him a bully.
I don't want to dislike Bowyer but some of the stuff that's happened recently is crossing the line. The day he turned on the 2000 fans allowed back into the Valley for not drumming up an atmosphere is the day he lost a lot of people's respect.
I said if he didn't go after the Blackpool defeat then it's likely he'll be the one to rebuild in summer. He is still here but if we do lose tonight, I wouldn't be surprised if Sandgaard does let him go.
What I do find strange, given how long this has been going on, is why this hasn’t this been addressed by the club? Given Charlton are a leading light, and take a strong stance regarding community trust, mental health, well being, racism, and many more social issues affecting us all these days. Surely there are people within the club, who players could relay the more toxic behaviour to, and the matter be dealt with.
In 94 I was at the Training Ground running the line at a Reserve Team Friendly. At the end of the game Steve Gritt gave the biggest volley I have ever heard to a bunch of apprentices for not putting Equipment away.
In 2013 I was at the Training Ground watching the 1st team train as part of a package my brother had bought via this site for the Upbeats. At the send of the session Chris Powell pulled apart one of the younger professionals.
Both of the incidents would not be accepted in the 'normal' workplace today.
Neither of those incidents made me think anything less of these 2 great individuals because I accepted both incidents for what they were, football.
I'm not trying to justify any ones behaviour from the past or today but I do think a lot of context does need to be taken into account.