Huge amount of conjecture and possibly false assumptions/ half truths appear to be going on here.
I see it more simply:
We are in the middle (end hopefully?) of a very poor run and which massively changes perceptions of both fans and players.
Bowyer is a novice manager (still) and learning
Players that we all thought were going to give us a promotion push have yet to deliver with or without Bowyers tactical input and that creates disappointment all round
He has tried praise and optimism (at various times) and has tried the criticism route too - but currently neither approach is changing much on the pitch
What is being ignored I think is that Bowyer is under different pressure for the 1st time.
He now has an active boss in TS who actually wants to know what's happening day to day / how results will improve etc. and that creates pressure for him. He also has the influence of Roddy in/around the camp day to day - may or may not be welcome - likely just different from the previous norm.
The dynamics are different and we are now in the 'storming' phase of team building. It can improve but will take a little time and perseverance.
Football doesn't usually give time (but should).
So unless there really are serious issues behind the scenes rather than some heated and frustrated exchanges from time to time that are the 'norm' for football we are just in the middle of a poor run.
Its not obvious a change now is the best option unless a long term candidate is already lined up.
I'd expect LB to see this out and get until December before any decisive action is taken unless (as I say) there really are confirmed & unacceptable problems we don't (for sure) know about.
I wouldn't call 5 wins in the last 21 games, and that's before even thinking of results last season, a poor run. It shows that there is something inherently wrong going on, whether that's the quality of players, the manager, or a combination of both.
I also wouldn't say that Bowyer is learning. He has managed over 150 games now, ye the team, and performances are getting worse week in week out, and have been for a while now.
And no one is ignoring Bowyer is under different pressure now. It's an argument used by many posters on here.
Also for me, I don't get the argument that Bowyer should get a chance to build the team next season, when he has blamed the performances on constantly having a new set of players to work with each year. Does not fill me with confidence that he should be the man behind what will be our biggest rebuild since Powell got us promoted.
The only slim reason i can think of as to why TS has not pulled the trigger is that he feels in some way culpable - has the plan been to try and upset and offload the likes of williams and maddison to enable a change in January? and have the players been told already that they won't be offered new contracts next season? Neither of the above are the right way to go about things i'd say and it certainly hasn't worked - if LB is to stay then i'd suggest that a big dose of communication / PR from TS is going to be required to try and understand how we have ended up in this situation and why LB is the man to put it right.
Huge amount of conjecture and possibly false assumptions/ half truths appear to be going on here.
I see it more simply:
We are in the middle (end hopefully?) of a very poor run and which massively changes perceptions of both fans and players.
Bowyer is a novice manager (still) and learning
Players that we all thought were going to give us a promotion push have yet to deliver with or without Bowyers tactical input and that creates disappointment all round
He has tried praise and optimism (at various times) and has tried the criticism route too - but currently neither approach is changing much on the pitch
What is being ignored I think is that Bowyer is under different pressure for the 1st time.
He now has an active boss in TS who actually wants to know what's happening day to day / how results will improve etc. and that creates pressure for him. He also has the influence of Roddy in/around the camp day to day - may or may not be welcome - likely just different from the previous norm.
The dynamics are different and we are now in the 'storming' phase of team building. It can improve but will take a little time and perseverance.
Football doesn't usually give time (but should).
So unless there really are serious issues behind the scenes rather than some heated and frustrated exchanges from time to time that are the 'norm' for football we are just in the middle of a poor run.
Its not obvious a change now is the best option unless a long term candidate is already lined up.
I'd expect LB to see this out and get until December before any decisive action is taken unless (as I say) there really are confirmed & unacceptable problems we don't (for sure) know about.
I wouldn't call 5 wins in the last 21 games, and that's before even thinking of results last season, a poor run. It shows that there is something inherently wrong going on, whether thats you want to put that down to the players, the manager, or both.
I also wouldn't say that Bowyer is learning. The team, and performances are getting worse week in week out, and have been for a while now.
And no one is ignoring Bowyer is under different pressure now. It's an argument used by many posters on here.
Also for me, I don't get the argument that Bowyer should get a chance to build the team next season, when he has blamed the performances on constantly having a new set of players to work with each year.
Very poor run I said. I could equally have said very bad. Not defending the results.
He is learning - we all always are. Its a question of how quickly though he can use that learning to our advantage.
I also said stay on unless there is a long term replacement already identified. No manager is ever safe from the sack however.
Huge amount of conjecture and possibly false assumptions/ half truths appear to be going on here.
I see it more simply:
We are in the middle (end hopefully?) of a very poor run and which massively changes perceptions of both fans and players.
Bowyer is a novice manager (still) and learning
Players that we all thought were going to give us a promotion push have yet to deliver with or without Bowyers tactical input and that creates disappointment all round
He has tried praise and optimism (at various times) and has tried the criticism route too - but currently neither approach is changing much on the pitch
What is being ignored I think is that Bowyer is under different pressure for the 1st time.
He now has an active boss in TS who actually wants to know what's happening day to day / how results will improve etc. and that creates pressure for him. He also has the influence of Roddy in/around the camp day to day - may or may not be welcome - likely just different from the previous norm.
The dynamics are different and we are now in the 'storming' phase of team building. It can improve but will take a little time and perseverance.
Football doesn't usually give time (but should).
So unless there really are serious issues behind the scenes rather than some heated and frustrated exchanges from time to time that are the 'norm' for football we are just in the middle of a poor run.
Its not obvious a change now is the best option unless a long term candidate is already lined up.
I'd expect LB to see this out and get until December before any decisive action is taken unless (as I say) there really are confirmed & unacceptable problems we don't (for sure) know about.
I wouldn't call 5 wins in the last 21 games, and that's before even thinking of results last season, a poor run. It shows that there is something inherently wrong going on, whether thats you want to put that down to the players, the manager, or both.
I also wouldn't say that Bowyer is learning. The team, and performances are getting worse week in week out, and have been for a while now.
And no one is ignoring Bowyer is under different pressure now. It's an argument used by many posters on here.
Also for me, I don't get the argument that Bowyer should get a chance to build the team next season, when he has blamed the performances on constantly having a new set of players to work with each year.
Very poor run I said. I could equally have said very bad. Not defending the results.
He is learning - we all always are. Its a question of how quickly though he can use that learning to our advantage.
I also said stay on unless there is a long term replacement already identified. No manager is ever safe from the sack however.
LB said he's learning but he also said he knows he's a good manager and the players aren't listening.
Therefore, why aren't they listening?
This is bigger than under performing players and poor tactics.
Very different in tone to the "Bowyer needs more time" piece.
Still balanced though.
A good piece but disagree with Benjy’s conclusion. It’s not a choice of Bowyer or the squad. As he says, most of the squad will not be here next season. It’s a choice of Bowyer rebuilding next season or someone else.
2 of the nicest people associated with our club over the years would be by general agreement would be Steve Gritt and Chris Powell.
In 94 I was at the Training Ground running the line at a Reserve Team Friendly. At the end of the game Steve Gritt gave the biggest volley I have ever heard to a bunch of apprentices for not putting Equipment away.
In 2013 I was at the Training Ground watching the 1st team train as part of a package my brother had bought via this site for the Upbeats. At the send of the session Chris Powell pulled apart one of the younger professionals.
Both of the incidents would not be accepted in the 'normal' workplace today.
Neither of those incidents made me think anything less of these 2 great individuals because I accepted both incidents for what they were, football.
I'm not trying to justify any ones behaviour from the past or today but I do think a lot of context does need to be taken into account.
And then Powelly turned around to us all after that and apologised to us with that big smile of his.
What happens in the dressing room/training ground stays there
Very different in tone to the "Bowyer needs more time" piece.
Still balanced though.
A good piece but disagree with Benjy’s conclusion. It’s not a choice of Bowyer or the squad. As he says, most of the squad will not be here next season. It’s a choice of Bowyer rebuilding next season or someone else.
You don't start a rebuild without planning first.
It is a choice of let Bowyer begin that planning this season or let someone else plan around this squad starting this season.
In either scenario the players remain until the summer, if it's going to be someone else we definitely need to make a change soon so they can decide which players they want or need for their tactics and style...
You're backing Bowyer if you stick with him this season, or you're backing the squad if you change manager.
Got a feeling we might...just might actually get something at wigan this evening.
I might be completely mad, yes.
I make you right, in this up and down, topsy turvy season knowing us we will win tonight. LB will take the plaudits, TS will be tweeting and playing his guitar, Charlton Life will re-launch HMS Promotion and all will be good in the world.
Lose tonight and I can’t see any way that Sandgaard can really keep Bowyer. That being said, I hope we win and it’s the start of a resurgence - seems unlikely however.
‘Supposition dressed up as fact’ should be the title of this thread. Some wild leaps of faith here from people who have way too much time on their hands.
I get some want Bowyer sacked pronto.
The witch hunt is reaching mouth-frothing levels though.
This isn't Bowyer's first season either and we haven't heard stories about his behaviour in previous years.
Something has clearly happened this year that has made Bowyer struggle. Maybe it's the pressure of performing?
We never saw the press-conference 2021 Bowyer in previous years. Something has gone wrong somewhere.
Could have been last year... Solly & Bonne as examples.
Is Bonne a good example? Bowyer criticised him - and let's be clear, criticism of players shouldn't go in the same file that bullying goes in - in order to try and drive complacency out of his game. Bonne himself admitted that it spurred him on to do better and show that he could score goals, and it got him a £2m transfer in the summer. He will be earning more money at QPR so he'll see that as a successful move. He scored 11 Championship goals for us in his first season having been a non-league striker before that, but he has 3 goals for QPR this season. I'd say Bowyer knew a thing or two about how to get the best out of him.
Lose tonight and I can’t see any way that Sandgaard can really keep Bowyer. That being said, I hope we win and it’s the start of a resurgence - seems unlikely however.
Can't see tonight's result having a ha'perth of difference regarding Thomas and his decision making regarding Bowyer, i think he has already made his mind up to stick with the easy option of "let's just see how this season pans out", remember the exclusive Jim White text (if that can be taken seriously that is) where he said as much ..allegedly However let's just hope for a good game tonight, would make a change.
Lose tonight and I can’t see any way that Sandgaard can really keep Bowyer. That being said, I hope we win and it’s the start of a resurgence - seems unlikely however.
Part of me wants the rot to continue so bowyer is definitely gone. I’m saying this waving a white flag, but a win tonight would do nothing for me except delay what I hope is a formality.
When you work on a game plan all week, then substitute 4 players at half-time, it really looks like you don't know what you doing. That you got it wrong in the first place and now you're desperate. Can't see any other way of looking at it.
When you work on a game plan all week, then substitute 4 players at half-time, it really looks like you don't know what you doing. That you got it wrong in the first place and now you're desperate. Can't see any other way of looking at it.
We have made at least one substitution at half time in a lot of games in the last 3 months. Multiple times we have changed 2,3 or 4 players. That says a lot.
This isn't Bowyer's first season either and we haven't heard stories about his behaviour in previous years.
Something has clearly happened this year that has made Bowyer struggle. Maybe it's the pressure of performing?
We never saw the press-conference 2021 Bowyer in previous years. Something has gone wrong somewhere.
Could have been last year... Solly & Bonne as examples.
Is Bonne a good example? Bowyer criticised him - and let's be clear, criticism of players shouldn't go in the same file that bullying goes in - in order to try and drive complacency out of his game. Bonne himself admitted that it spurred him on to do better and show that he could score goals, and it got him a £2m transfer in the summer. He will be earning more money at QPR so he'll see that as a successful move. He scored 11 Championship goals for us in his first season having been a non-league striker before that, but he has 3 goals for QPR this season. I'd say Bowyer knew a thing or two about how to get the best out of him.
This is what Bonne actually said:
“He [Bowyer] had his methods and in a wayit worked. In the moment when he is screaming and shouting I thought ‘he hates me and it must be something personal’.
This isn't Bowyer's first season either and we haven't heard stories about his behaviour in previous years.
Something has clearly happened this year that has made Bowyer struggle. Maybe it's the pressure of performing?
We never saw the press-conference 2021 Bowyer in previous years. Something has gone wrong somewhere.
Could have been last year... Solly & Bonne as examples.
Is Bonne a good example? Bowyer criticised him - and let's be clear, criticism of players shouldn't go in the same file that bullying goes in - in order to try and drive complacency out of his game. Bonne himself admitted that it spurred him on to do better and show that he could score goals, and it got him a £2m transfer in the summer. He will be earning more money at QPR so he'll see that as a successful move. He scored 11 Championship goals for us in his first season having been a non-league striker before that, but he has 3 goals for QPR this season. I'd say Bowyer knew a thing or two about how to get the best out of him.
This is what Bonne actually said:
“He [Bowyer] had his methods and in a wayit worked. In the moment when he is screaming and shouting I thought ‘he hates me and it must be something personal’.
Not exactly a glowing indictment and shows LB has been employing this borderline OTT tactic for quite a while...
Comments
I also wouldn't say that Bowyer is learning. He has managed over 150 games now, ye the team, and performances are getting worse week in week out, and have been for a while now.
And no one is ignoring Bowyer is under different pressure now. It's an argument used by many posters on here.
Also for me, I don't get the argument that Bowyer should get a chance to build the team next season, when he has blamed the performances on constantly having a new set of players to work with each year. Does not fill me with confidence that he should be the man behind what will be our biggest rebuild since Powell got us promoted.
He is learning - we all always are. Its a question of how quickly though he can use that learning to our advantage.
I also said stay on unless there is a long term replacement already identified. No manager is ever safe from the sack however.
Therefore, why aren't they listening?
This is bigger than under performing players and poor tactics.
Something has clearly happened this year that has made Bowyer struggle. Maybe it's the pressure of performing?
We never saw the press-conference 2021 Bowyer in previous years. Something has gone wrong somewhere.
Bowyer is not a bully, he just has a short fuse and he's frustrated. A knobhead that really really needs to apologise and wake up.
A bully is someone that prays on and targets the weak, or someone they envy, because they can. Makes them feel better about themselves.
He might just be a mess at the moment.
That weird sky sports soccer Saturday clip of bowyers commentary... vaguely indicated someone who has reduced enthusiasm and professionalism.
I might be completely mad, yes.
Yet on this thread it’s like a really crap US soap Opera, only the plot is less believable.
You’d think Bows had committed mass genocide when you read this.
Maybe us fans should calm down a little and discuss the football and the actual facts rather than gossip and rumours.
i’ll be swerving this forum until it’s all over.
What happens in the dressing room/training ground stays there
It is a choice of let Bowyer begin that planning this season or let someone else plan around this squad starting this season.
In either scenario the players remain until the summer, if it's going to be someone else we definitely need to make a change soon so they can decide which players they want or need for their tactics and style...
You're backing Bowyer if you stick with him this season, or you're backing the squad if you change manager.
However let's just hope for a good game tonight, would make a change.
“He [Bowyer] had his methods and in a way it worked. In the moment when he is screaming and shouting I thought ‘he hates me and it must be something personal’.
However, after the last few weeks I just can't see it happening.
If we lose will LB definitely get the sack?
Probably no... but I suppose it may depend on the manner of the defeat.
Fingers crossed we will surprise everyone and win handsomely....
Back to the drugs now!