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Post-match Thread: Charlton v Blackpool | Sat 27 Feb 2021
Comments
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masicat said:
I’m one of them. I’m always an optimist having been supporting this club for 60 years. The only good thing about this current dip in form and performance is I don’t have to sit down the valley and hear people like you spouting out bollox all game.DaisyEdwards said:Where have all the the Charlton optimists gone? The people who said we were a top two side or plays offs at the minimum. The guys who said once we get a centre back playing after injury we will be all right. Where are all the Bowyer apologists, spouting off about Lee being "proper" Charlton? He is West ham and always will be. A very inexperienced manager who is well out of his depth.We dont hear much from all these delusional fools anymore.
Some of us don’t jump up and down like a demented twat every time things don’t go our way. Sometimes you take a step back and try to work our why a good manager suddenly becomes a bad one. Why a manager who stuck with the club through the last few years might be worth sticking with. Why replacing managers every five minutes never works.So, here I am, I’m an optimist. Maybe it is time for Lee to move on. But believe me, you lot will be slagging off the next bloke before he even puts his coat on the back of his chair. To finish, if your not an optimist your supporting the wrong fucking football club.
That's what I meant to say. Nice one.
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hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
At least Wigan are in poor form.HardyAddick said:Form guide League 1. Currently relegation form. Interesting that Blackpool and Burton are right up there.
https://thefishy.co.uk/formtable.php?table=3
Time for us to turn their season around.
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I’d consider my opinion on Charlton matters in the top 10% of calling it right quicker than most (I stuck a zero on there to not appear conceited ;-)
Curbs goes = we’re fucked for a long long time
Roland arrived = this fella seems a cnut
esi = have they got any real money
Thomas Sandgaard = he’s a good egg
Last season we could go down
I called these before most as I don’t wear rose tinted and see it for what it is .
I was certain play offs this season (and I’m wrong ) and even when I had doubts , earlier than most re bowyer, still believed and still do that these players are decent enough for top 6 .
so the players are genuinely underperforming and have to take plenty of blame but the main cause of all this is the manager.He orchestrates us and leads us and these players may not be the best but they’re not anywhere near the level they should be at .
Ben Watson played 40 odd times for a team that finished 7th in the championship last season .
Wales most capped player Gunter .
To a man nearly everyone appears to have got worse as the season has gone on .
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark and it needs sorting and quick
because next season will be 8 in 13 seasons in this shithouse of a league
to find the previous 8 seasons we spent in the third tier it will take you back 75 seasons from the start of this crap,
that is how shit we have become and accepting of our shitness while our nearest and dearest rivals are playing a league and two above , shameful .
Of course Bowyer performed miracles for us but times change and he’s not the care free spirited manager who rocked up and got us playing some decent stuff with no shackles.
Its horrible for it to go like this but we will move on, bigger and better club legends than him have been and gone and whenever the day comes I’ll feel sick for him but the sooner the better as far as I’m concerned .9 -
1% play offs (if we get a new manager quick)
50% 7th-12th
49% 13th-20th
relegation = I’ll be doing a stretch for murder(s) if we get down there1 -
Ask yourself this oohaa, how much effort would you put in? Or even am I prepared to give my all for this club? When quite simply you have no future at the club and will not be here gone June. I could only see two players for the back four, Gunter and Purrington. Maybe one from the midfield DJ and none up front. Yes I know there was no start for Morgan, Watson and Forster Caskey is injured plus our only other centre back. Bowyer's comment about 'they don't care and I can't make them care' is absolutely where its at. Sadly we all believe that players are loyal and play the hearts out till the last day of their contract, we only have to look at last season to look at two individuals who refused to play for us, when we needed them most, to realise what is going on now.3
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I’d be putting myself in the shop window or realistically I’d want to get a new contract at Charlton where there appears to be a decent owner with some dough and ambition
and the question is how bad must the manager be if I’m not trying to force myself to be there next season for what in all likelihood would be playing for one of the bigger better paying clubs in this division9 -
You are and me are more honest then some of those players oohaa, Mathew's is only here because he couldn't find anyone else to pay him, Gunter, Watson and Washington the same. Deji will be gone, Bowyer doesn't rate him, Forster Caskey wouldn't have had too many suitors after being out injured for a good proportion of the season and the same could be said of Aneke, a player who I think will see what's out there first before signing up again. Pearce, Pratley would never have got a contract anywhere else so took up the option. That doesn't leave that many who see Charlton as their future but you are right you think they would give their all till their contracts end but I have yet to see them pointing fingers or berating each other because of the goals conceded.0
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I wonder if, with Sangaard’s backing, bowyer can go to the players and hammer home that he’s there until the end of the season and they are playing for their careers. Those that step up and play like they mean it will get new contracts with us or someone else and those who don’t will find themselves at the end of their careers/taking a step down to league 2.
The hen maybe he can play a fairly settled side for a bit with only 1 winger at a time if playing a flat 4-4-2.1 -
Dead right,we have too many "pension players" as George Graham would say,Just look at the comparison to our promotion year,I think we had only 2 players over 30,Pratley and Pearce in that squad,the rest mostly early to mid 20s,Midfield,Beilic 21,Aribo 22,Cullen 24,Williams 25,defence,Djiksteel 21,Baur and Nabby around 25 ,Purrington 22.,A lot of our present squad are just seeing out their careers.Bailey said:You are and me are more honest then some of those players oohaa, Mathew's is only here because he couldn't find anyone else to pay him, Gunter, Watson and Washington the same. Deji will be gone, Bowyer doesn't rate him, Forster Caskey wouldn't have had too many suitors after being out injured for a good proportion of the season and the same could be said of Aneke, a player who I think will see what's out there first before signing up again. Pearce, Pratley would never have got a contract anywhere else so took up the option. That doesn't leave that many who see Charlton as their future but you are right you think they would give their all till their contracts end but I have yet to see them pointing fingers or berating each other because of the goals conceded.0 -
Are you telling me all other clubs have players loaded up on long term contracts no old uns and welsh internationals that no one signed or players who made 45 appearances in the Championship last year for a team who finished 7th ...Bailey said:You are and me are more honest then some of those players oohaa, Mathew's is only here because he couldn't find anyone else to pay him, Gunter, Watson and Washington the same. Deji will be gone, Bowyer doesn't rate him, Forster Caskey wouldn't have had too many suitors after being out injured for a good proportion of the season and the same could be said of Aneke, a player who I think will see what's out there first before signing up again. Pearce, Pratley would never have got a contract anywhere else so took up the option. That doesn't leave that many who see Charlton as their future but you are right you think they would give their all till their contracts end but I have yet to see them pointing fingers or berating each other because of the goals conceded.
Nope not having it
excuse after excuse for an under performing maanger
yes the players are culpable but the manager is the one who knits it all together and is where the buck stops7 - Sponsored links:
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Our average positions on Saturday. Grim viewing.
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I wouldn't be embarrassed if it was the other way round. Pratley was the one who should be embarrassed. He knew he was on a booking and getting sent off would let down his team mates.YTS1978 said:
Hope your right back recovers from Pratleys brutal assault and he regains his sight/starts walking again soon lolSeasider53 said:Blackpool fan here in peace. Firstly, thanks to all you guys who supported us and backed us in the turbulent twisted vile days of the Oyston family ownership. It's massively appreciated and it's good to see you rid of Roland Douchebag.
Onto the game yesterday. Pool are on a decent run, we only took 7 pts from our first 9 games this season, mostly due to the fact we signed about 20 new players in the summer and they hadn't integrated as a team, but it's looking decent for us of late.
As for the match, i though the ref was a bit weak. I agree with both red cards, but not the second penalty, it was softer than soft and i think Yates played for it bigtime. As for the Addicks, i felt sorry for you. Blackpool won every second ball, wanted it more, showed more fight and passion, and that shouldn't ever be allowed to happen. If you pull on a shirt, no matter who you play for, you've got to give your all, and some of the performances yesterday by your team were abysmal and i said to my family at full time, if i'd have been a Charlton fan i'd have been disgusted with the lack of effort.
Expected the kitchen sink in the second half, but 4 changes was a big surprise. Thought your left winger was the best of the bunch, he got into good positions several times. Sorry for the shitty day, good luck with the rest of the season and thanks again from the Seaside.
I said earlier, I'd be embarrassed if one of ours did the same as three of yours and the surrounding pack, but hey, maybe we should be more "streetwise"?
On a serious note, you lot have been through a shit time recently, so good luck to you pal and thanks for posting1 -
I Agree - He has openly told the public he is going to drop the player who keeps costing us goals on Tuesday:
- What if there's an injury and this mistake prone player has to come back in the fold?
- What do those public comments do for that player's confidence starting/coming on last minute?
- What do opposition Manager's/Players do once they realise that player is starting? Let's assume they set up to attack the other team's weakness and not just match their formation?
None of the above are trick questions, but they seem it!1 -
I don’t get the sudden posts about not blaming players for playing so poorly at the moment, because you’ve done or would do the same in your office with a bad boss. It’s not the same at all.If these players continue to put in minimal effort, have poor stats (goals scored, goals conceded, assists, depending on position), then they’re not going to make other teams notice them and get signed in the summer.I understand the frustration some of them may be feeling after being personally called out by bowyer, but as a professional you have to rise above that if you want to be successful yourself. If players aren’t enjoying playing for bowyer, then play for themselves, as a group of lads who love to play the game.Before the very anti-Bowyer posters dismiss all the above saying it’s not the players fault. I’m not saying it is, bowyer has a lot to ask for at the moment, and really needs to find something in himself that he had when he took over. Just feel that this is not 100% Bowyers fault, that’s all.7
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stoneroses19 said:I don’t get the sudden posts about not blaming players for playing so poorly at the moment, because you’ve done or would do the same in your office with a bad boss. It’s not the same at all.If these players continue to put in minimal effort, have poor stats (goals scored, goals conceded, assists, depending on position), then they’re not going to make other teams notice them and get signed in the summer.I understand the frustration some of them may be feeling after being personally called out by bowyer, but as a professional you have to rise above that if you want to be successful yourself. If players aren’t enjoying playing for bowyer, then play for themselves, as a group of lads who love to play the game.Before the very anti-Bowyer posters dismiss all the above saying it’s not the players fault. I’m not saying it is, bowyer has a lot to ask for at the moment, and really needs to find something in himself that he had when he took over. Just feel that this is not 100% Bowyers fault, that’s all.
The thing is, is it players throwing a wobbly because Bowyers had a pop at them (again) or is it general confusion in whats being asked of them as to why so many of the players now look massively sub standard?
Look at Bowyers press conferences of late, the contradictory comments etc one week were overacheiving and COULD make the playoffs, this week underacheiving and SHOULD be making them, saying we played teams off the park when we've all seen an absymal 2-0 loss. Look at some of the formations and line ups we've put out and the now seemingly constant Non closed down shot from range ohhh another "worldie" goes in. I dont imagine Lee would take any critisim from players well eg. "Why am i being asked to do x when Im a z player, of course I'm under performing" as we've seen, very much my way or the highway.
He didnt tell Pratley to get himself sent off, but he didnt remove that risk either
It's not a 100% Bowyers fault, BUT it is 100% on him to find a solution, and he just isnt...9 -
The question is (for me) are they actually just not putting the effort in or are they confused about what exactly they are being asked to do?stoneroses19 said:I don’t get the sudden posts about not blaming players for playing so poorly at the moment, because you’ve done or would do the same in your office with a bad boss. It’s not the same at all.If these players continue to put in minimal effort, have poor stats (goals scored, goals conceded, assists, depending on position), then they’re not going to make other teams notice them and get signed in the summer.I understand the frustration some of them may be feeling after being personally called out by bowyer, but as a professional you have to rise above that if you want to be successful yourself. If players aren’t enjoying playing for bowyer, then play for themselves, as a group of lads who love to play the game.Before the very anti-Bowyer posters dismiss all the above saying it’s not the players fault. I’m not saying it is, bowyer has a lot to ask for at the moment, and really needs to find something in himself that he had when he took over. Just feel that this is not 100% Bowyers fault, that’s all.
If you are Pratley or Watson (or Amos) you get picked when available, no questions asked. Anyone else and it seems to be an absolute exercise in guesswork as to whether you will play, and if so in what position in which formation. You could make a mistake and get dropped. You could make no glaring mistakes and STILL get dropped. You could make a complete blunder and not get dropped.
What Bowyer is CALLING lack of effort may not be anything of the sort. And even if it is, for so many to simultaneously give up says to me something is wrong beyond the players.2 -
This season was always going to be difficult the moment Duchatalet hung around like a stale fart beyond the first transfer window. We had to paper over widening cracks with kids, loans and players who nobody else wanted. When TS came on board it was a blessed relief but anyone thinking things would be wonderful from then on was kidding themselves. Even had we been able to sign the players we wanted it would take time for them to bed in. It's not going well and clearly Bowyer is struggling to get anything out of some of them (which may be why in a few instances they couldn't find a club other than us!).
I've back Bowyer until Saturday but really had doubts after that performance and the post-match. After a day to breathe deeply I think we have to trust the owner and continue to back him. Over the summer we should be in a position to offload the deadwood who are clearly there and re-build with those the club and the manager wants. We're not going up but equally we're not going down. And despite it all we're in a hell of a better position now than we were a year ago.2 -
On the face of it, that looks shocking (which as we know from watching the game and seeing the result, it was). But it might make more sense if we could see Blackpool's positions overlaid on the same map. The big questions for me there are:Croydon said:Our average positions on Saturday. Grim viewing.- Why is there a such a gulf between our centre backs, have they had a row?
- Why is there a hole in midfield like that - it certainly explains their second goal; there are sheep shearers in Kiwirrkura that have less space to run around in than Virtue-Thick did?
- Why are Pratley and Shinnie practically marking each other. Did Blackpool sign Kevin De Bruyne and we felt that we needed to double up on him?
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Their manager said he knew how to open us up. I think that diagram shows exactly where they did it.1
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I'd like to see the Burton pitch map too, as we had a different formation for that game but would have been just as unbalanced to the leftStig said:
On the face of it, that looks shocking (which as we know from watching the game and seeing the result, it was). But it might make more sense if we could see Blackpool's positions overlaid on the same map. The big questions for me there are:Croydon said:Our average positions on Saturday. Grim viewing.- Why is there a such a gulf between our centre backs, have they had a row?
- Why is there a hole in midfield like that - it certainly explains their second goal; there are sheep shearers in Kiwirrkura that have less space to run around in than Virtue-Thick did?
- Why are Pratley and Shinnie practically marking each other. Did Blackpool sign Kevin De Bruyne and we felt that we needed to double up on him?
That match had Millar on the left wing/left inside forward, Purrington as left wing back AND Deji as an overlapping left sided CB!1 - Sponsored links:
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killerandflash said:
I'd like to see the Burton pitch map too, as we had a different formation for that game but would have been just as unbalanced to the leftStig said:
On the face of it, that looks shocking (which as we know from watching the game and seeing the result, it was). But it might make more sense if we could see Blackpool's positions overlaid on the same map. The big questions for me there are:Croydon said:Our average positions on Saturday. Grim viewing.- Why is there a such a gulf between our centre backs, have they had a row?
- Why is there a hole in midfield like that - it certainly explains their second goal; there are sheep shearers in Kiwirrkura that have less space to run around in than Virtue-Thick did?
- Why are Pratley and Shinnie practically marking each other. Did Blackpool sign Kevin De Bruyne and we felt that we needed to double up on him?
That match had Millar on the left wing/left inside forward, Purrington as left wing back AND Deji as an overlapping left sided CB!
Ask and you shall receive....
This is against Burton. Purrington further forward than Stockley
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It's easy enough for Bowyer to blame players and say they don't care rather than look at his own limitations. He's managed to get a squad of players who seem to be underperforming so his argument wears a bit thin.thenewbie said:
The question is (for me) are they actually just not putting the effort in or are they confused about what exactly they are being asked to do?stoneroses19 said:I don’t get the sudden posts about not blaming players for playing so poorly at the moment, because you’ve done or would do the same in your office with a bad boss. It’s not the same at all.If these players continue to put in minimal effort, have poor stats (goals scored, goals conceded, assists, depending on position), then they’re not going to make other teams notice them and get signed in the summer.I understand the frustration some of them may be feeling after being personally called out by bowyer, but as a professional you have to rise above that if you want to be successful yourself. If players aren’t enjoying playing for bowyer, then play for themselves, as a group of lads who love to play the game.Before the very anti-Bowyer posters dismiss all the above saying it’s not the players fault. I’m not saying it is, bowyer has a lot to ask for at the moment, and really needs to find something in himself that he had when he took over. Just feel that this is not 100% Bowyers fault, that’s all.
If you are Pratley or Watson (or Amos) you get picked when available, no questions asked. Anyone else and it seems to be an absolute exercise in guesswork as to whether you will play, and if so in what position in which formation. You could make a mistake and get dropped. You could make no glaring mistakes and STILL get dropped. You could make a complete blunder and not get dropped.
What Bowyer is CALLING lack of effort may not be anything of the sort. And even if it is, for so many to simultaneously give up says to me something is wrong beyond the players.
I'll be very unhappy if we start next season with him as manager as I don't think he can get the best out of players and tactically seems to have been outhought by numerous managers this season.
It's usually the sign of a poor manager once they start blaming the players for lack of effort - invariably a lazy argument.0 -
No, but their squads were bought and settled long before Charltons because of the embargo and East St investments trying to make a fast buck, we were playing Charlie Barker and having kids on the bench. Did you hear off us fighting the competition for Matthews, Washington, Watson, Gunter and Bogle, no because nobody wanted them. Gunter has performed better than most but he is allegedly the highest paid player on the books. Back to what I am suggesting, those players are going backwards, contrast that with Morgan or some of the loan players. You have to have winners and some of our players don't want to win enough.oohaahmortimer said:
Are you telling me all other clubs have players loaded up on long term contracts no old uns and welsh internationals that no one signed or players who made 45 appearances in the Championship last year for a team who finished 7th ...Bailey said:You are and me are more honest then some of those players oohaa, Mathew's is only here because he couldn't find anyone else to pay him, Gunter, Watson and Washington the same. Deji will be gone, Bowyer doesn't rate him, Forster Caskey wouldn't have had too many suitors after being out injured for a good proportion of the season and the same could be said of Aneke, a player who I think will see what's out there first before signing up again. Pearce, Pratley would never have got a contract anywhere else so took up the option. That doesn't leave that many who see Charlton as their future but you are right you think they would give their all till their contracts end but I have yet to see them pointing fingers or berating each other because of the goals conceded.
Nope not having it
excuse after excuse for an under performing maanger
yes the players are culpable but the manager is the one who knits it all together and is where the buck stops0 -
Gunter has performed better than most?Bailey said:
No, but their squads were bought and settled long before Charltons because of the embargo and East St investments trying to make a fast buck, we were playing Charlie Barker and having kids on the bench. Did you hear off us fighting the competition for Matthews, Washington, Watson, Gunter and Bogle, no because nobody wanted them. Gunter has performed better than most but he is allegedly the highest paid player on the books. Back to what I am suggesting, those players are going backwards, contrast that with Morgan or some of the loan players. You have to have winners and some of our players don't want to win enough.oohaahmortimer said:
Are you telling me all other clubs have players loaded up on long term contracts no old uns and welsh internationals that no one signed or players who made 45 appearances in the Championship last year for a team who finished 7th ...Bailey said:You are and me are more honest then some of those players oohaa, Mathew's is only here because he couldn't find anyone else to pay him, Gunter, Watson and Washington the same. Deji will be gone, Bowyer doesn't rate him, Forster Caskey wouldn't have had too many suitors after being out injured for a good proportion of the season and the same could be said of Aneke, a player who I think will see what's out there first before signing up again. Pearce, Pratley would never have got a contract anywhere else so took up the option. That doesn't leave that many who see Charlton as their future but you are right you think they would give their all till their contracts end but I have yet to see them pointing fingers or berating each other because of the goals conceded.
Nope not having it
excuse after excuse for an under performing maanger
yes the players are culpable but the manager is the one who knits it all together and is where the buck stops1 -
Better than Matthews for sure, would have him down as our best player last year but he hasnt come anywhere near that standard this year.0
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Yes.Dazzler21 said:
Gunter has performed better than most?Bailey said:
No, but their squads were bought and settled long before Charltons because of the embargo and East St investments trying to make a fast buck, we were playing Charlie Barker and having kids on the bench. Did you hear off us fighting the competition for Matthews, Washington, Watson, Gunter and Bogle, no because nobody wanted them. Gunter has performed better than most but he is allegedly the highest paid player on the books. Back to what I am suggesting, those players are going backwards, contrast that with Morgan or some of the loan players. You have to have winners and some of our players don't want to win enough.oohaahmortimer said:
Are you telling me all other clubs have players loaded up on long term contracts no old uns and welsh internationals that no one signed or players who made 45 appearances in the Championship last year for a team who finished 7th ...Bailey said:You are and me are more honest then some of those players oohaa, Mathew's is only here because he couldn't find anyone else to pay him, Gunter, Watson and Washington the same. Deji will be gone, Bowyer doesn't rate him, Forster Caskey wouldn't have had too many suitors after being out injured for a good proportion of the season and the same could be said of Aneke, a player who I think will see what's out there first before signing up again. Pearce, Pratley would never have got a contract anywhere else so took up the option. That doesn't leave that many who see Charlton as their future but you are right you think they would give their all till their contracts end but I have yet to see them pointing fingers or berating each other because of the goals conceded.
Nope not having it
excuse after excuse for an under performing maanger
yes the players are culpable but the manager is the one who knits it all together and is where the buck stops1 -
Since our early season run EVERY one of our players have gone backwards.Bailey said:
No, but their squads were bought and settled long before Charltons because of the embargo and East St investments trying to make a fast buck, we were playing Charlie Barker and having kids on the bench. Did you hear off us fighting the competition for Matthews, Washington, Watson, Gunter and Bogle, no because nobody wanted them. Gunter has performed better than most but he is allegedly the highest paid player on the books. Back to what I am suggesting, those players are going backwards, contrast that with Morgan or some of the loan players. You have to have winners and some of our players don't want to win enough.oohaahmortimer said:
Are you telling me all other clubs have players loaded up on long term contracts no old uns and welsh internationals that no one signed or players who made 45 appearances in the Championship last year for a team who finished 7th ...Bailey said:You are and me are more honest then some of those players oohaa, Mathew's is only here because he couldn't find anyone else to pay him, Gunter, Watson and Washington the same. Deji will be gone, Bowyer doesn't rate him, Forster Caskey wouldn't have had too many suitors after being out injured for a good proportion of the season and the same could be said of Aneke, a player who I think will see what's out there first before signing up again. Pearce, Pratley would never have got a contract anywhere else so took up the option. That doesn't leave that many who see Charlton as their future but you are right you think they would give their all till their contracts end but I have yet to see them pointing fingers or berating each other because of the goals conceded.
Nope not having it
excuse after excuse for an under performing maanger
yes the players are culpable but the manager is the one who knits it all together and is where the buck stops
Wonder why that is????1 -
Don't be surprised if he is playing centre half tomorrow with Mathews in at full back2
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Because they don't care unlike the manager who gives 963% all the time. Charlton is just unlucky that it seems to have signed so many players that don't give a toss and our failings this season are completely down to them. We're lucky that Lee has done such a good job with this bunch of wasters as with any other manager we'd have ended up in a relegation battle.southamptonaddick said:
Since our early season run EVERY one of our players have gone backwards.Bailey said:
No, but their squads were bought and settled long before Charltons because of the embargo and East St investments trying to make a fast buck, we were playing Charlie Barker and having kids on the bench. Did you hear off us fighting the competition for Matthews, Washington, Watson, Gunter and Bogle, no because nobody wanted them. Gunter has performed better than most but he is allegedly the highest paid player on the books. Back to what I am suggesting, those players are going backwards, contrast that with Morgan or some of the loan players. You have to have winners and some of our players don't want to win enough.oohaahmortimer said:
Are you telling me all other clubs have players loaded up on long term contracts no old uns and welsh internationals that no one signed or players who made 45 appearances in the Championship last year for a team who finished 7th ...Bailey said:You are and me are more honest then some of those players oohaa, Mathew's is only here because he couldn't find anyone else to pay him, Gunter, Watson and Washington the same. Deji will be gone, Bowyer doesn't rate him, Forster Caskey wouldn't have had too many suitors after being out injured for a good proportion of the season and the same could be said of Aneke, a player who I think will see what's out there first before signing up again. Pearce, Pratley would never have got a contract anywhere else so took up the option. That doesn't leave that many who see Charlton as their future but you are right you think they would give their all till their contracts end but I have yet to see them pointing fingers or berating each other because of the goals conceded.
Nope not having it
excuse after excuse for an under performing maanger
yes the players are culpable but the manager is the one who knits it all together and is where the buck stops
Wonder why that is????
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Exactly. A bloody great gaping whole through the middle!Croydon said:Our average positions on Saturday. Grim viewing.0
