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Wayne Rooney's Derby County - not any more (p41)

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Comments

  • Redrobo said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Redrobo said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Chunes said:
    If I’m honest I still don’t see why Arsenal should have any priority for payment over and above local trades people. 
    Chunes said:
    If I’m honest I still don’t see why Arsenal should have any priority for payment over and above local trades people. 
    I agree........but sadly it's in their rules which is voted on by the league's chairman. 
    Yeah but I think the law of the land needs to be tightened up on this. There should be a list of priority creditors but off the top of my head it should start with HMRC followed by the Police, local authority and any registered charity. After that, in my opinion Krystian Bielik is no more a priority than 50 boxes of steak and kidney pies. 
    The law of the land does put HMRC first.

    Would people feel differently if Derby owed Rochdale 800k than if they did Arsenal 8 million.  I suspect they would. 
    HMRC used to be preferential creditors, but not any more.

    I think that most reasonable people would expect that all creditors should be treated equally. It is grossly unfair that one person gets all their money and someone else gets nothing.
    They aren't preferred creditors but they won't take pennies in the pound if the assets are more than their debt.  Especially when it's PAYE and NI. As is the case with Derby.

    And it is unfair, but if you got made bankrupt owning a massive bar tab, would you expect the land lord to let you back after paying 10p in the £1?
    If the assets are worth more than the debt then everyone would get their money. It has been awhile, but I think that the only PAYE and NIC that get priority above everyone, is the PAYE and NIC that the administrator deducts from employees.

    No, I would not expect to be let back in. I would also not expect it to be down to me which of the people I owed money too got paid and which didn’t.
    I ment if the asset was worth more than HMRCs debt, not the total debts. 

    HMRC will persue unpaid PAYE and NI much more aggressively than other taxes because its clear cut what has and hasn't been paid from the pay roll.  Its clear what is owed and when it was due. 

    No one is saying they have to pay the football debts over the pie bill.  Just they do have to pay the football debts, in full, to play in the league.  I am not sure why that's so controversial, other that in this case it is owed to Arsenal. 
  • It's quite simple, if there wasn't football credit being thrown around then there wouldn't be any problem about football debts being paid.

    For example, Derby offer Arsenal £10m for Beilik, spead over 5 years or some other nonsense. Arsenal look at Derby and that's a big risk, we'll  take the cash up front thanks, unless your owner wants to personally guarantee the credit. Problem solved. There's only need for football debts to be paid first because football clubs don't want to pay up front and other clubs are stupid enough to offer credit to businesses any proper lender wouldn't  touch with a barge poll.

    Seriously, no bank would loan Derby even thousands of pounds, let alone millions, but arsenal were happy to. And everybody else is somehow supposed to protect arsenal from their own stupid business decisions. 

    If you can't pay up front for a player, then hard luck, go and get a cheaper player or a loanee, or a free agent.
    It makes our spell in the Championship even more frustrating, bet Bowyer would have loved to have signed Beilik again when we got promoted - But rightly didnt because we could never have paid £2m or £10m for him.

    Seems what we should have done instead was offer everyone £500k now and £50m in the future for their players.

    Am sure we'd have had a great season had we done that
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Redrobo said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Chunes said:
    If I’m honest I still don’t see why Arsenal should have any priority for payment over and above local trades people. 
    Chunes said:
    If I’m honest I still don’t see why Arsenal should have any priority for payment over and above local trades people. 
    I agree........but sadly it's in their rules which is voted on by the league's chairman. 
    Yeah but I think the law of the land needs to be tightened up on this. There should be a list of priority creditors but off the top of my head it should start with HMRC followed by the Police, local authority and any registered charity. After that, in my opinion Krystian Bielik is no more a priority than 50 boxes of steak and kidney pies. 
    The law of the land does put HMRC first.

    Would people feel differently if Derby owed Rochdale 800k than if they did Arsenal 8 million.  I suspect they would. 
    HMRC used to be preferential creditors, but not any more.

    I think that most reasonable people would expect that all creditors should be treated equally. It is grossly unfair that one person gets all their money and someone else gets nothing.
    They aren't preferred creditors but they won't take pennies in the pound if the assets are more than their debt.  Especially when it's PAYE and NI. As is the case with Derby.

    And it is unfair, but if you got made bankrupt owning a massive bar tab, would you expect the land lord to let you back after paying 10p in the £1?
    Goodluck going bankrupt and being allowed to pay off your bar tab in full because you like the boozer. 
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Redrobo said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Chunes said:
    If I’m honest I still don’t see why Arsenal should have any priority for payment over and above local trades people. 
    Chunes said:
    If I’m honest I still don’t see why Arsenal should have any priority for payment over and above local trades people. 
    I agree........but sadly it's in their rules which is voted on by the league's chairman. 
    Yeah but I think the law of the land needs to be tightened up on this. There should be a list of priority creditors but off the top of my head it should start with HMRC followed by the Police, local authority and any registered charity. After that, in my opinion Krystian Bielik is no more a priority than 50 boxes of steak and kidney pies. 
    The law of the land does put HMRC first.

    Would people feel differently if Derby owed Rochdale 800k than if they did Arsenal 8 million.  I suspect they would. 
    HMRC used to be preferential creditors, but not any more.

    I think that most reasonable people would expect that all creditors should be treated equally. It is grossly unfair that one person gets all their money and someone else gets nothing.
    They aren't preferred creditors but they won't take pennies in the pound if the assets are more than their debt.  Especially when it's PAYE and NI. As is the case with Derby.

    And it is unfair, but if you got made bankrupt owning a massive bar tab, would you expect the land lord to let you back after paying 10p in the £1?
    Goodluck going bankrupt and being allowed to pay off your bar tab in full because you like the boozer. 
    But it's not the "oldco" that pay the bill is it?  The "newco" have to pay it, in full, to remain in the league. 
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Redrobo said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Chunes said:
    If I’m honest I still don’t see why Arsenal should have any priority for payment over and above local trades people. 
    Chunes said:
    If I’m honest I still don’t see why Arsenal should have any priority for payment over and above local trades people. 
    I agree........but sadly it's in their rules which is voted on by the league's chairman. 
    Yeah but I think the law of the land needs to be tightened up on this. There should be a list of priority creditors but off the top of my head it should start with HMRC followed by the Police, local authority and any registered charity. After that, in my opinion Krystian Bielik is no more a priority than 50 boxes of steak and kidney pies. 
    The law of the land does put HMRC first.

    Would people feel differently if Derby owed Rochdale 800k than if they did Arsenal 8 million.  I suspect they would. 
    HMRC used to be preferential creditors, but not any more.

    I think that most reasonable people would expect that all creditors should be treated equally. It is grossly unfair that one person gets all their money and someone else gets nothing.
    They aren't preferred creditors but they won't take pennies in the pound if the assets are more than their debt.  Especially when it's PAYE and NI. As is the case with Derby.

    And it is unfair, but if you got made bankrupt owning a massive bar tab, would you expect the land lord to let you back after paying 10p in the £1?
    Goodluck going bankrupt and being allowed to pay off your bar tab in full because you like the boozer. 
    But it's not the "oldco" that pay the bill is it?  The "newco" have to pay it, in full, to remain in the league. 
    That would suggest that the payment does not come from the administration?
    The administrators sell the business and share out the money after taking their whack.
    The new owners then have to satisfy the EFL rules to take part in the league, which includes paying out balance of wages to footballers.

    That would seem to make sense if it works that way as would be the same as any other administration.

    Can I go back in the pub now?
  • Redrobo said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Redrobo said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Chunes said:
    If I’m honest I still don’t see why Arsenal should have any priority for payment over and above local trades people. 
    Chunes said:
    If I’m honest I still don’t see why Arsenal should have any priority for payment over and above local trades people. 
    I agree........but sadly it's in their rules which is voted on by the league's chairman. 
    Yeah but I think the law of the land needs to be tightened up on this. There should be a list of priority creditors but off the top of my head it should start with HMRC followed by the Police, local authority and any registered charity. After that, in my opinion Krystian Bielik is no more a priority than 50 boxes of steak and kidney pies. 
    The law of the land does put HMRC first.

    Would people feel differently if Derby owed Rochdale 800k than if they did Arsenal 8 million.  I suspect they would. 
    HMRC used to be preferential creditors, but not any more.

    I think that most reasonable people would expect that all creditors should be treated equally. It is grossly unfair that one person gets all their money and someone else gets nothing.
    They aren't preferred creditors but they won't take pennies in the pound if the assets are more than their debt.  Especially when it's PAYE and NI. As is the case with Derby.

    And it is unfair, but if you got made bankrupt owning a massive bar tab, would you expect the land lord to let you back after paying 10p in the £1?
    Goodluck going bankrupt and being allowed to pay off your bar tab in full because you like the boozer. 
    But it's not the "oldco" that pay the bill is it?  The "newco" have to pay it, in full, to remain in the league. 
    That would suggest that the payment does not come from the administration?
    The administrators sell the business and share out the money after taking their whack.
    The new owners then have to satisfy the EFL rules to take part in the league, which includes paying out balance of wages to footballers.

    That would seem to make sense if it works that way as would be the same as any other administration.

    Can I go back in the pub now?
    I believe the football creditors can accept the ps in the £ like any other creditors but those debts must be settled, in full, to continue playing in the league, I don't think anyone is bothered who pays it. 
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Redrobo said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Redrobo said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Chunes said:
    If I’m honest I still don’t see why Arsenal should have any priority for payment over and above local trades people. 
    Chunes said:
    If I’m honest I still don’t see why Arsenal should have any priority for payment over and above local trades people. 
    I agree........but sadly it's in their rules which is voted on by the league's chairman. 
    Yeah but I think the law of the land needs to be tightened up on this. There should be a list of priority creditors but off the top of my head it should start with HMRC followed by the Police, local authority and any registered charity. After that, in my opinion Krystian Bielik is no more a priority than 50 boxes of steak and kidney pies. 
    The law of the land does put HMRC first.

    Would people feel differently if Derby owed Rochdale 800k than if they did Arsenal 8 million.  I suspect they would. 
    HMRC used to be preferential creditors, but not any more.

    I think that most reasonable people would expect that all creditors should be treated equally. It is grossly unfair that one person gets all their money and someone else gets nothing.
    They aren't preferred creditors but they won't take pennies in the pound if the assets are more than their debt.  Especially when it's PAYE and NI. As is the case with Derby.

    And it is unfair, but if you got made bankrupt owning a massive bar tab, would you expect the land lord to let you back after paying 10p in the £1?
    Goodluck going bankrupt and being allowed to pay off your bar tab in full because you like the boozer. 
    But it's not the "oldco" that pay the bill is it?  The "newco" have to pay it, in full, to remain in the league. 
    That would suggest that the payment does not come from the administration?
    The administrators sell the business and share out the money after taking their whack.
    The new owners then have to satisfy the EFL rules to take part in the league, which includes paying out balance of wages to footballers.

    That would seem to make sense if it works that way as would be the same as any other administration.

    Can I go back in the pub now?
    I believe the football creditors can accept the ps in the £ like any other creditors but those debts must be settled, in full, to continue playing in the league, I don't think anyone is bothered who pays it. 
    No one cares who pays it, as long as it is new money.
  • Can't imagine Cocu is that impressed.

    "Derby also owe £26m owed to HM Revenue and Customs but Phillip Cocu, the manager who sanctioned the Bielik deal before his sacking last November, will not receive the £5m owed in compensation after the club went into administration last week".
  • Addickted said:
    Can't imagine Cocu is that impressed.

    "Derby also owe £26m owed to HM Revenue and Customs but Phillip Cocu, the manager who sanctioned the Bielik deal before his sacking last November, will not receive the £5m owed in compensation after the club went into administration last week".
    So is their any definition of what is a football debt? Does it cover the players money, but not the manager/coaching staff? On that basis, they could offload Rooney tomorrow and save themselves a lot of cash. 
  • Addickted said:
    Can't imagine Cocu is that impressed.

    "Derby also owe £26m owed to HM Revenue and Customs but Phillip Cocu, the manager who sanctioned the Bielik deal before his sacking last November, will not receive the £5m owed in compensation after the club went into administration last week".
    So is their any definition of what is a football debt? Does it cover the players money, but not the manager/coaching staff? On that basis, they could offload Rooney tomorrow and save themselves a lot of cash. 
    This is a useful read

    https://www.r3.org.uk/press-policy-and-research/r3-blog/more/28736/page/7/the-special-features-of-football-insolvencies/ 

    This one suggests that the money owed to the ex coaching staff and Richard Keogh aren't automatically footballing debts. 

    https://www.football365.com/news/derby-county-administration-failure-opinion

    I also missed that since 2020 HMRC are a preferred creditor as well. 


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  • Derby were ordered by the EFL’s Player Related Dispute Commission (upheld on appeal to the League Appeals Committee) to pay up the full value of the remainder of his contract – a sum of about £2.3m. Keogh was also found to have been wrongly dismissed by Derby and not to have committed gross misconduct or brought the club into serious disrepute.
  • Derby County owe £15m to MSD Holdings, it has been confirmed by the US investment group.

    The detail is included within MSD's annual financial statements.

    MSD has become a significant presence in English football, lending money to a number of Premier League and Championship clubs, including Burnley and Derby.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58814150

  • Derby really are looking fucked. I can see a winding up looming on this one.
  • As the article says, it's one thing borrowing to effectively get the Premier League money a bit earlier, but something completely different to do it without such funds.
  • Derby really are looking fucked. I can see a winding up looming on this one.
    It looks increasingly likely.  Someone is going to have to pay nearly £50 million for, what is in effect, nothing at all. 
  • Their fans on Twitter still seem to be defend the actions of the club. I don't quite get it. 
  • Chunes said:
    Their fans on Twitter still seem to be defend the actions of the club. I don't quite get it. 

    Always found them a bit like the massives in their attitude to their own club.
  • And it’s ok they won’t have a club to defend soon
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  • One of 12 founding clubs of the football league.  137 year history, semi finalists of the European Cup,FA Cup winners, First Division winners. 

    Derby are a huge club and yet seem destined to oblivion.  Assuming they fail, and I see little other alternative or hope for them; it should send shock waves through footy. 

    But it won't because they are not PL so they will be a small footnote on a 606 call in where the majority will prefer to discuss how disgusted they are as a Spurs fans that they just drew a game or how upset a Man UTD fan is at Ole.

    To think that Derby have been taken to this by a fan of theirs and that the fan has fucked them so hard that they have borrowed against their property and main/only asset.

    I worry that Derby may be the biggest so far but will soon be joined by others (look how reliant Boro are on their long term owner and his huge debt pile); or Blackburn or Forest.

    For years people have warned the bubble will burst and maybe (outside the PL) Derby are simply the first.

    Be careful what you wish for.  An AFC Derby will arise and be back in the football league quick enough but will most likely need to find a new stadium first whilst the Yanks turn the existing one into flats.
    Derby failing would still send shockwaves through football, not least because it's currently "Wayne Rooney's Derby County" and previously it was "Frank Lampard's Derby County"

    Fan owners can often screw things up, as they are driven too much by glory and emotion. It was under a fan in Mark Hulyer, that we nearly went out of business in the 80s. Similarly Simon Jordan and Mark Goldberg at Palace both ended up in administration.
  • Seems that Mike Ashley is interested in buying them.
  • Seems that Mike Ashley is interested in buying them.
    Seriously ?
  • I see that the Administrators have appealed the 12 point deduction stating that an exception should be made due to impact from Covid.


  • I see that the Administrators have appealed the 12 point deduction stating that an exception should be made due to impact from Covid.
    Didnt Wigan try that line?
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