With the talent, he needs to stop acting and 2nd guessing over teams and being defensivly minded, he needs to let teams worry about us not the other way round.
The fact at one point Henderson looked like coming on shows this.
Even Scotland made an attacking change when taking off Gilmore for a more attack minded player.
We subbed Grealish for Forden. No change in mentality like for like replacement.
James at full back was deep to compensate for Robertson attacking nature. Why not reverse the pressure and let James push Robertson back.
Southgate first and foremost is a defensivly minded manager and trys to combat other teams formations.
He changed players but swapped an offensive player for an offensive player. So ultimately he didn't change the basic set up. He came out and said that if we were not going to win, it was important not to lose which says it all and explains what we saw yesterday 100%. Of course, we could have lost which he needs to ponder on, but he will probably see it as job done.
Scotland still have a mountain to climb as Croatia are no mugs. I predict a draw.
To see some mates for the first time in over two years, have a sesh and just relish that general football buzz again.
Being able to stand in the ground for 90 mins without issue.
The ‘unruly’ burger at the Railway Inn at West Hempstead.
The bad:
Everything else.
Believe be, I have been to enough Eng v Scot games ( down here and up there) to know it’s never, ever easy or simple, so more than expected it could go any way.
What I did not expect or appreciate though was such an utterly pathetic display from many supposed world class players. I really really try hard to stay enthused about England but as I said in the other thread, I support the shirt, not the players wearing it, who for the most of my match going life have been a disgrace to the shirt when it really matters.
I spent the train journey back to Maidstone talking to a nice jock and how jealous I was that he supports a team, a country, who may be lacking in ability but more than make up for it in heart and endeavour.
Maybe Southgate, worry less about players taking the knees and fans reaction to it, and more about managing your fucking country. I’ve liked you generally but I spend a lot of time and effort following this team around Europe and for the most part, as usual when it matters, it’s fucking garbage.
England don't have any world class players. Kane is very good but overrated. Foden has potential to be but not when stuck out in the Liam Millar right wing role.
Very anticlimactic and disappointing performance but hopefully we will play more freely with one defensive midfielder and Foden and Grealish central on Tuesday.
Still everything to play for despite the disappointment last night.
He changed players but swapped an offensive player for an offensive player. So ultimately he didn't change the basic set up. He came out and said that if we were not going to win, it was important not to lose which says it all and explains what we saw yesterday 100%. Of course, we could have lost which he needs to ponder on, but he will probably see it as job done.
Scotland still have a mountain to climb as Croatia are no mugs. I predict a draw.
Should get the sack for having the cheek to say that after playing Scotland.
I'd understand the mentality if we were playing France or Italy. But one of the worst teams in the tournament and you're worried we're going to lose with Champions League level players at your disposal? Hasn't got a clue.
I suspect we will have secured a place in the last 16 by the time we play the Czechs so this may allow Southgate the freedom to be a bit more expansive. Then of course, if we play well that could set the tone.
To see some mates for the first time in over two years, have a sesh and just relish that general football buzz again.
Being able to stand in the ground for 90 mins without issue.
The ‘unruly’ burger at the Railway Inn at West Hempstead.
The bad:
Everything else.
Believe be, I have been to enough Eng v Scot games ( down here and up there) to know it’s never, ever easy or simple, so more than expected it could go any way.
What I did not expect or appreciate though was such an utterly pathetic display from many supposed world class players. I really really try hard to stay enthused about England but as I said in the other thread, I support the shirt, not the players wearing it, who for the most of my match going life have been a disgrace to the shirt when it really matters.
I spent the train journey back to Maidstone talking to a nice jock and how jealous I was that he supports a team, a country, who may be lacking in ability but more than make up for it in heart and endeavour.
Maybe Southgate, worry less about players taking the knees and fans reaction to it, and more about managing your fucking country. I’ve liked you generally but I spend a lot of time and effort following this team around Europe and for the most part, as usual when it matters, it’s fucking garbage.
England don't have any world class players. Kane is very good but overrated. Foden has potential to be but not when stuck out in the Liam Millar right wing role.
Very anticlimactic and disappointing performance but hopefully we will play more freely with one defensive midfielder and Foden and Grealish central on Tuesday.
Still everything to play for despite the disappointment last night.
Why would we do that. After last night, the next game is an even more imperative 'not lose' and we just saw how Southgate sets up when he thinks a point will do. The only point we will go after the game is if the Czechs score first, and that's hardly an unlikely scenario.
If searching for a positive, who knows, perhaps that might be a bit of a wake up call for the players.
our main problem imo wasn’t last night but has festered for over 20 years; our international players get elevated to some level of untouchable comfort zone. They get treated with kid gloves and managers like Southgate or Sven are terrified of upsetting ‘the group’. And it becomes a very safe environment where the group hold the power. When you get someone like Capello who wants to go right the other way, ‘the group’ don’t like it and don’t perform.
The result is we continually get a group of core players that are bereft of hunger and pride when it matters most on the pitch. That’s why someone like Grealish is so popular with the fans as he seems to be so different to that.
England v Scotland is akin to Charlton v Millwall. I thought we would lose it 1-0 so I'll take the draw and hope we can turn @PragueAddick 's lot over.
We're supposedly the 4th best team in the world and Scotland the 44th. If Southgate thinks scraping a draw is satisfactory he shouldn't be the manager.
England v Scotland is akin to Charlton v Millwall. I thought we would lose it 1-0 so I'll take the draw and hope we can turn @PragueAddick 's lot over.
It seems obvious to me that the players are being told to be cautious. Not just last night but for ages. It makes absolutely no difference where we come in the group the first half decent team we face will beat us. Hopefully we go out before we have to play one of the top teams as that will just be embarrassing. People saying its aok as job done we are qualified ! For me that doesnt matter, if I were asked do you want to watch England win the tournament being negative and boring I would say no. The players must be wondering wtf is going on. Southgate as a man is a nice person. Southgate as a manager is clueless. No way Kane or Sterling should start the next game
Based on FIFA rankings, England (4th) translates to our league as Chelsea. The group opposition are Croatia (14th = Crystal Palace) / Czech Republic (40th = Huddersfield Town) / Scotland (44th = Sheffield Wednesday).
modern day football is being killed by negative tactics - most premier league games i watch now are 80 minutes off passing it round the back followed by a bit at the end when a match actually happens - last night wasn't a football match - it was a defensive dirge - didn't even get 10 minutes where either side were going all out to win - absolute tripe
If searching for a positive, who knows, perhaps that might be a bit of a wake up call for the players.
our main problem imo wasn’t last night but has festered for over 20 years; our international players get elevated to some level of untouchable comfort zone. They get treated with kid gloves and managers like Southgate or Sven are terrified of upsetting ‘the group’. And it becomes a very safe environment where the group hold the power. When you get someone like Capello who wants to go right the other way, ‘the group’ don’t like it and don’t perform.
The result is we continually get a group of core players that are bereft of hunger and pride when it matters most on the pitch. That’s why someone like Grealish is so popular with the fans as he seems to be so different to that.
In reflection I think we all knew what to expect. 4 points was the target and that’s what we got. If Stones had scored in the first few minutes we would have played even deeper and let Scotland have even more of the ball. Unfortunately, the way I see it, football is about not losing and doing just enough to move forward to the next match. However awful that was to watch we achieved 4 points from 2 games. We will progress into the last 16 and probably get beaten by 1 goal while playing some slightly better football and pretend we could have been contenders. I would like to think we all have seen the other teams and have all realised we are lacking in all departments. As an Englishman I would love just once in my life to us smash Scotland out of a tournament, humiliating for for years to come. Even in 96 when beat Scotland the first half was mediocre, if it weren’t for a missed penalty and one moment of magic that game would have been easily forgotten. As it was they still got a mathematical chance to qualify. And again we’ve let them have another game with a bit of hope. Definitely our Millwall.
Steve Clarke won the battle of the coaches and that is a fact: Clarke played two strikers and managed to accommodate two natural wing backs in Robertson and Tierney who work well together. Hanley would be slaughtered by Kane in the premier but played like a man possessed. Billy Gilmour can't get in his club side 18 but had a great battle with Mount.
Scotland were excellent last night because we were negative and caution. Scotland losing their first match and England winning seemed to create the tactics for both managers. Southgate was more determined not to lose than to win. At HT Grealish needed to come on for Rice or Phillips and see the dynamics of the triangle with Mount and Foden. Against Scotland that must be possible ?
After 65 minutes I would have subbed both Kane and Sterling and brought on Calvert- Lewin and Sancho. Gareth needs to think on his feet and not be out thought by the guy in the other dugout.
4 points from 2 games is fine despite this performance but after watching my picks for the final Italy and Portugal we look miles off the pace and that's not to mention France and Belgium. ( You just did)
I always want us to win and that includes beating Scotland. But it doesn't bother me if Scotland are having a good tournament as I am pleased if they do. They will never have a chance of winning it whereas we have. The question is, whether our best chance is playing to our strengths or covering up our weaknesses. I believe and it seems many supporters agree that it is the former, Southgate clearly believes it is the latter. Of course he as England manager has a lot of pressure on him to succeed, or maybe from his viewpoint, not to fail and that affects the decision making of the insecure. I would say the role of England manager is insecure to a degree and definitely open to acute criticism.
Is the other side of that result the potential to stay at Wembley in the next stage ? Wasn’t there a comment somewhere on CL last week about winning this group meant England had to go to Rome to play. Anybody following what the permutations actually mean ?
Is the other side of that result the potential to stay at Wembley in the next stage ? Wasn’t there a comment somewhere on CL last week about winning this group meant England had to go to Rome to play. Anybody following what the permutations actually mean ?
Not mine, it was posted on here but this spreadsheet is a great way of looking at the permutations as they develop. Apologies I can't recall who posted it, but compliments to them.
I didn't watch the game as it was a 03:00 am kickoff. I wonder if England deliberately played poorly to avoid Group F?
You wouldn't have stayed awake long Jessie...
I am sure England wouldn't have played badly deliberately for any reason. I've only ever seen that once in a major tournament, I think in the 70s or 80s when Austria played East Germany?
However, some comments by manager and players before and after the game about it being just another game and one step closer to qualification, plus the over defensive line up, suggests that our mentality was about not losing rather than winning
I always want us to win and that includes beating Scotland. But it doesn't bother me if Scotland are having a good tournament as I am pleased if they do. They will never have a chance of winning it whereas we have. The question is, whether our best chance is playing to our strengths or covering up our weaknesses. I believe and it seems many supporters agree that it is the former, Southgate clearly believes it is the latter. Of course he as England manager has a lot of pressure on him to succeed, or maybe from his viewpoint, not to fail and that affects the decision making of the insecure. I would say the role of England manager is insecure to a degree and definitely open to acute criticism.
We don't have a chance of winning it. What have we shown that's made anyone believe that? It's coming home is a parody.
If we top the group then remaining games are at home , but against the best teams @ Wembley, come 2nd easy teams not @ Wembley, perhaps GS is playing the long game?
If we top the group then remaining games are at home , but against the best teams @ Wembley, come 2nd easy teams not @ Wembley, perhaps GS is playing the long game?
I think we are just a very mediocre side with a lot of decent players but no identity. Just for arguments sake though:
If we won our group and lost to Portugal I don’t think anyone in the country would be mad. It would be expected.
If we try to fluke and easy draw and lose to Poland (which is likely if we continue to play so defensively) then his job is on the line.
I think we’re trying to beat everyone. We are just tactically inept.
Comments
With the talent, he needs to stop acting and 2nd guessing over teams and being defensivly minded, he needs to let teams worry about us not the other way round.
The fact at one point Henderson looked like coming on shows this.
Even Scotland made an attacking change when taking off Gilmore for a more attack minded player.
We subbed Grealish for Forden. No change in mentality like for like replacement.
James at full back was deep to compensate for Robertson attacking nature. Why not reverse the pressure and let James push Robertson back.
Southgate first and foremost is a defensivly minded manager and trys to combat other teams formations.
Scotland still have a mountain to climb as Croatia are no mugs. I predict a draw.
Very anticlimactic and disappointing performance but hopefully we will play more freely with one defensive midfielder and Foden and Grealish central on Tuesday.
Still everything to play for despite the disappointment last night.
0-0 against the Czechs is 13/2 Bob's lot.
I'd understand the mentality if we were playing France or Italy. But one of the worst teams in the tournament and you're worried we're going to lose with Champions League level players at your disposal? Hasn't got a clue.
our main problem imo wasn’t last night but has festered for over 20 years; our international players get elevated to some level of untouchable comfort zone. They get treated with kid gloves and managers like Southgate or Sven are terrified of upsetting ‘the group’. And it becomes a very safe environment where the group hold the power. When you get someone like Capello who wants to go right the other way, ‘the group’ don’t like it and don’t perform.
The result is we continually get a group of core players that are bereft of hunger and pride when it matters most on the pitch. That’s why someone like Grealish is so popular with the fans as he seems to be so different to that.
Not because of the dirge that played out over the 90 minutes on the field but the total bias anti English commentary that went with it on RTÉ.
Remind me, it was 0-0 wasn’t it? We didn’t get beat 10 nil by Brazil did we?
Unfortunately, the way I see it, football is about not losing and doing just enough to move forward to the next match. However awful that was to watch we achieved 4 points from 2 games. We will progress into the last 16 and probably get beaten by 1 goal while playing some slightly better football and pretend we could have been contenders. I would like to think we all have seen the other teams and have all realised we are lacking in all departments.
As an Englishman I would love just once in my life to us smash Scotland out of a tournament, humiliating for for years to come. Even in 96 when beat Scotland the first half was mediocre, if it weren’t for a missed penalty and one moment of magic that game would have been easily forgotten. As it was they still got a mathematical chance to qualify. And again we’ve let them have another game with a bit of hope. Definitely our Millwall.
Clarke played two strikers and managed to accommodate two natural wing backs in Robertson and Tierney who work well together.
Hanley would be slaughtered by Kane in the premier but played like a man possessed.
Billy Gilmour can't get in his club side 18 but had a great battle with Mount.
Scotland were excellent last night because we were negative and caution. Scotland losing their first match and England winning seemed to create the tactics for both managers.
Southgate was more determined not to lose than to win.
At HT Grealish needed to come on for Rice or Phillips and see the dynamics of the triangle with Mount and Foden. Against Scotland that must be possible ?
After 65 minutes I would have subbed both Kane and Sterling and brought on Calvert- Lewin and Sancho. Gareth needs to think on his feet and not be out thought by the guy in the other dugout.
4 points from 2 games is fine despite this performance but after watching my picks for the final Italy and Portugal we look miles off the pace and that's not to mention France and Belgium. ( You just did)
I am sure England wouldn't have played badly deliberately for any reason. I've only ever seen that once in a major tournament, I think in the 70s or 80s when Austria played East Germany?
However, some comments by manager and players before and after the game about it being just another game and one step closer to qualification, plus the over defensive line up, suggests that our mentality was about not losing rather than winning
Monroe mountains a big Bookie who operate in Staffordshire.
If we try to fluke and easy draw and lose to Poland (which is likely if we continue to play so defensively) then his job is on the line.
I think we’re trying to beat everyone. We are just tactically inept.