Given me nothing but a headache this thread. For me this woman has to compete in the womens event. Otherwise I'm saying Laurel is only a woman until it comes to sports and then she has to compete in the mens events. Is it for me to tell someone who has probably known from an early age they was born into the wrong body and lived with it for years. That they cant compete in the sex group that they are?
And it gives me a headache thinking about having to tell someone who lines up against Laurel, who was born a woman that she has no choice but to accept it.
There are two sides to this and that can’t be ignored.
We are in the year 2021, we talk about equality maybe it's time to do away with men and womens sport and we all compete under the same umbrella?
😂😂 So do away completely with separate sex sports & have just a free for all?
How the feck is that equal exactly? 🤔
Let’s take football for example. Do you think EPL teams will be happy being told that in the age of ‘equality’ you have to have equal parts of all genders in your squad going forward? It sounds wonderful but in reality?
I think there are some sports where women will end up playing in top-level men's competition. Cricket for one. Any sport where skill and mental discipline has greater importance than sheer speed, strength or power
I think there are some sports where women will end up playing in top-level men's competition. Cricket for one. Any sport where skill and mental discipline has greater importance than sheer speed, strength or power
Not sure cricket is a good example. I can't see many women prepared to face bowlers who exceed 90 mph.
That doesn't cover in-game decisions, tactical awareness, skill or the fact that some women, just as men, outlie the mean by a considerable margin. Or maybe yeah, sure, men are 29-34% better at cricket, as proven by facts and logic
I think there are some sports where women will end up playing in top-level men's competition. Cricket for one. Any sport where skill and mental discipline has greater importance than sheer speed, strength or power
Not sure cricket is a good example. I can't see many women prepared to face bowlers who exceed 90 mph.
I can't see many men wanting to either!
Besides, I doubt there is any evidence that men have a distinct advantage over women when it comes to courage, determination and fortitude. Very few women would be able to bowl at 90+mph, but no reason to suspect they couldn't face that bowling.
I think there are some sports where women will end up playing in top-level men's competition. Cricket for one. Any sport where skill and mental discipline has greater importance than sheer speed, strength or power
Not sure cricket is a good example. I can't see many women prepared to face bowlers who exceed 90 mph.
Darts is probably a better example. But because men have a physical advantage in many sports, it doesn't mean men's sport is more entertaining or that it has to be. I think we can draw an analogy with Boxing. A flyweight is not going to fight a heavyweight so they are separated within the regulations and a flyweight World Champion is a World Champion despite arguably not being the best.
Maybe the issue with Hubbard should come down to an independent panel of doctors/experts who can rule on whether being born a man has presented her with an advantage over somebody who was born a woman. I am not qualified to say but maybe the advantage will be more profound in some sports than others. You can turn it on its head and say nature disadvantages a man who wants to compete at the highest level who was born a woman. Rather than make it specifically about sex, we can argue it is the same as somebody born short being at a disadvantage in basketball. It is the hand you are dealt with.
I think there are some sports where women will end up playing in top-level men's competition. Cricket for one. Any sport where skill and mental discipline has greater importance than sheer speed, strength or power
Not sure cricket is a good example. I can't see many women prepared to face bowlers who exceed 90 mph. it's shit
I suppose it comes down to what is an "unfair" advantage and how do you prove it. Just as a point of comparison, the shortest professional NBA player was 5 ft 3 in but played with/against players well over six feet tall.
So in some sports and to some extent, ability can overcome certain physical disparities, but then we run into the problem that not all sports are the same.
Cricket and even football there's an argument that skill and talent can overcome physical differences, but in weightlifting or athletics having an inherent strength/mass advantage can't really be overcome just by skill or willpower.
There's not a one size fits all answer and that's the main problem here.
Would it even be a summer with out a court of appeal hearing to follow....
Posting without expressing an opinion:-
Wednesday 23rd – Thursday 24th June 2021
Bell & anr (claimant/resp) –v- The Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust (def/appellant)
This is an application for permission to appeal the Order of the President of Queen’s Bench Division, Lewis LJ and Lieven J (1/12/20).
The claim for judicial review was of the practice of the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust, through its Gender Identity Development Service of prescribing puberty-suppressing drugs to persons under the age of 18 who experience gender dysphoria.
The Court declared that the relevant information that a child under the age of 16 would have to understand, retain and weigh up in order to have competence to consent to the administration of puberty blocking (PB) drugs is set out at para. 138 of the judgment: (i) the immediate consequences of the treatment in physical and psychological terms; (ii) the fact that the vast majority of patients taking PBs go on to CSH (cross-sex hormones) and therefore that they are on a pathway to much greater medical interventions; (iii) the relationship between taking CSH and subsequent surgery, with the implications of such surgery; (iv) the fact that CSH may well lead to a loss of fertility; (v) the impact of CSH on sexual function; (vi) the impact that taking this step on this treatment pathway may have on future and life-long relationships; (vii) the unknown physical consequences of taking PBs; and (viii) the fact that the evidence base for this treatment is as yet highly uncertain.
Given me nothing but a headache this thread. For me this woman has to compete in the womens event. Otherwise I'm saying Laurel is only a woman until it comes to sports and then she has to compete in the mens events. Is it for me to tell someone who has probably known from an early age they was born into the wrong body and lived with it for years. That they cant compete in the sex group that they are?
And it gives me a headache thinking about having to tell someone who lines up against Laurel, who was born a woman that she has no choice but to accept it.
There are two sides to this and that can’t be ignored.
We are in the year 2021, we talk about equality maybe it's time to do away with men and womens sport and we all compete under the same umbrella?
Thank you for reminding us of the year we are in. I am sure that anybody who disagrees with you in any way will be reminded of this.
What has 2021 got to do with having a different view on trans gender people.
I am pissed of with woke stances being raised or offering a calendar to argue a point. That is digression, not an argument. Or it is a way of insulting someone without having the balls to say what they think.
Not agreeing with re tendering or gender reassignment is not 'behind the times '. It is disagreeing.
You could be insulting someone's religious beliefs or culture, but hey ,that counts for bugger all now. Rant over
Given me nothing but a headache this thread. For me this woman has to compete in the womens event. Otherwise I'm saying Laurel is only a woman until it comes to sports and then she has to compete in the mens events. Is it for me to tell someone who has probably known from an early age they was born into the wrong body and lived with it for years. That they cant compete in the sex group that they are?
And it gives me a headache thinking about having to tell someone who lines up against Laurel, who was born a woman that she has no choice but to accept it.
There are two sides to this and that can’t be ignored.
We are in the year 2021, we talk about equality maybe it's time to do away with men and womens sport and we all compete under the same umbrella?
Thank you for reminding us of the year we are in. I am sure that anybody who disagrees with you in any way will be reminded of this.
What has 2021 got to do with having a different view on trans gender people.
I am pissed of with woke stances being raised or offering a calendar to argue a point. That is digression, not an argument. Or it is a way of insulting someone without having the balls to say what they think.
Not agreeing with re tendering or gender reassignment is not 'behind the times '. It is disagreeing.
You could be insulting someone's religious beliefs or culture, but hey ,that counts for bugger all now. Rant over
Interesting that Caitlin Jenner is against transgender athletes competing with natural born females
Not especially, Jenner thinks that rules only apply to poor people anyway. Her political views have always been conservative because again she's been rich/"important" enough to just ignore anything she doesn't like or doesn't suit her personally.
(And that's all I'm saying on the matter as otherwise this veers into politics/HoC matters.)
Interesting that Caitlin Jenner is against transgender athletes competing with natural born females
Not especially, Jenner thinks that rules only apply to poor people anyway. Her political views have always been conservative because again she's been rich/"important" enough to just ignore anything she doesn't like or doesn't suit her personally.
(And that's all I'm saying on the matter as otherwise this veers into politics/HoC matters.)
Why bring her political views in? Everyone is allowed an opinion irrespective of their political views? Her view is the trans athlete has an unfair advantage? Nothing to do with her political views. Surely her experience as an athlete and transitioning is far more relevant?
Given me nothing but a headache this thread. For me this woman has to compete in the womens event. Otherwise I'm saying Laurel is only a woman until it comes to sports and then she has to compete in the mens events. Is it for me to tell someone who has probably known from an early age they was born into the wrong body and lived with it for years. That they cant compete in the sex group that they are?
And it gives me a headache thinking about having to tell someone who lines up against Laurel, who was born a woman that she has no choice but to accept it.
There are two sides to this and that can’t be ignored.
We are in the year 2021, we talk about equality maybe it's time to do away with men and womens sport and we all compete under the same umbrella?
Thank you for reminding us of the year we are in. I am sure that anybody who disagrees with you in any way will be reminded of this.
What has 2021 got to do with having a different view on trans gender people.
I am pissed of with woke stances being raised or offering a calendar to argue a point. That is digression, not an argument. Or it is a way of insulting someone without having the balls to say what they think.
Not agreeing with re tendering or gender reassignment is not 'behind the times '. It is disagreeing.
You could be insulting someone's religious beliefs or culture, but hey ,that counts for bugger all now. Rant over
I see what you did there.
But aren't they also entitled to an opinion?
Of course. They're entitled to an opinion, but their opinion shouldn't carry more weight than anybody else's, and it shouldn't be allowed to affect how anybody else lives their life.
But why do you feel it necessary to mock their opinion? Argue against it of course, but mock, insult, call out, scream 'racist', 'fascist', 'homophobe', 'islamophobia', 'anti-Semitic' achieves nothing but entrenches their opinions.
But why do you feel it necessary to mock their opinion? Argue against it of course, but mock, insult, call out, scream 'racist', 'fascist', 'homophobe', 'islamophobia', 'anti-Semitic' achieves nothing but entrenches their opinions.
Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion and some people can have more experience/knowledge etc. Hence my previous comment that Caitlin Jenner has particular experience regarding this subject and certainty should not be dismissed because of her politics (or is it just that she doesn't agree with someone's view?!)
In general (I don't mean this topic or CL specifically) I am getting increasingly frustrated with people dismissing perfectly good opinions because it doesn't fit someone's narrative or it is just wrong, the wrong publication etc. No wonder the majority are getting fed up with being told what to think, that they are wrong to have a different opinion or labelled with an ism.
Given me nothing but a headache this thread. For me this woman has to compete in the womens event. Otherwise I'm saying Laurel is only a woman until it comes to sports and then she has to compete in the mens events. Is it for me to tell someone who has probably known from an early age they was born into the wrong body and lived with it for years. That they cant compete in the sex group that they are?
And it gives me a headache thinking about having to tell someone who lines up against Laurel, who was born a woman that she has no choice but to accept it.
There are two sides to this and that can’t be ignored.
We are in the year 2021, we talk about equality maybe it's time to do away with men and womens sport and we all compete under the same umbrella?
Thank you for reminding us of the year we are in. I am sure that anybody who disagrees with you in any way will be reminded of this.
What has 2021 got to do with having a different view on trans gender people.
I am pissed of with woke stances being raised or offering a calendar to argue a point. That is digression, not an argument. Or it is a way of insulting someone without having the balls to say what they think.
Not agreeing with re tendering or gender reassignment is not 'behind the times '. It is disagreeing.
You could be insulting someone's religious beliefs or culture, but hey ,that counts for bugger all now. Rant over
I think opinions are something we can't help but have. We do need to question ourselves when our opinions hurt or oppress others and there has to be a balance. I mean, there was a prevailing opinion that homosexuality was wrong and on the day the Alan Turing £50 note has been launched, there is a clear example of how that was wrong and oppressive. It is good we have moved forwards from there and it is right we challenge ourselves surely.
Given me nothing but a headache this thread. For me this woman has to compete in the womens event. Otherwise I'm saying Laurel is only a woman until it comes to sports and then she has to compete in the mens events. Is it for me to tell someone who has probably known from an early age they was born into the wrong body and lived with it for years. That they cant compete in the sex group that they are?
And it gives me a headache thinking about having to tell someone who lines up against Laurel, who was born a woman that she has no choice but to accept it.
There are two sides to this and that can’t be ignored.
We are in the year 2021, we talk about equality maybe it's time to do away with men and womens sport and we all compete under the same umbrella?
Thank you for reminding us of the year we are in. I am sure that anybody who disagrees with you in any way will be reminded of this.
What has 2021 got to do with having a different view on trans gender people.
I am pissed of with woke stances being raised or offering a calendar to argue a point. That is digression, not an argument. Or it is a way of insulting someone without having the balls to say what they think.
Not agreeing with re tendering or gender reassignment is not 'behind the times '. It is disagreeing.
You could be insulting someone's religious beliefs or culture, but hey ,that counts for bugger all now. Rant over
I see what you did there.
But aren't they also entitled to an opinion?
Of course. They're entitled to an opinion, but their opinion shouldn't carry more weight than anybody else's, and it shouldn't be allowed to affect how anybody else lives their life.
Others are also entitled to mock their opinion
Mocking is not argument, it is ignorance and a failure to engage. I now know what your stupid photos are . You assume I am elderly and white and I assume racist, islamophobic and anti gay.
Having worked in Africa I am not racist and neither am I anti any religious group. I am not anti gay either. I just get fed up with people going on about sexuality and gender. Why are people so obsessed with that ?
People like you Leroy are an irritation on the bum of life. You mock people in silly pictures when they disagree with you . Quite ridiculous.
I mean, you *literally* posted 'Giving up the streets to the colonies' a few weeks back. You're like The Gammon King - I'll take 'being an irritation on the bum of life' over being a closet bigot, thanks.
Given me nothing but a headache this thread. For me this woman has to compete in the womens event. Otherwise I'm saying Laurel is only a woman until it comes to sports and then she has to compete in the mens events. Is it for me to tell someone who has probably known from an early age they was born into the wrong body and lived with it for years. That they cant compete in the sex group that they are?
And it gives me a headache thinking about having to tell someone who lines up against Laurel, who was born a woman that she has no choice but to accept it.
There are two sides to this and that can’t be ignored.
We are in the year 2021, we talk about equality maybe it's time to do away with men and womens sport and we all compete under the same umbrella?
Thank you for reminding us of the year we are in. I am sure that anybody who disagrees with you in any way will be reminded of this.
What has 2021 got to do with having a different view on trans gender people.
I am pissed of with woke stances being raised or offering a calendar to argue a point. That is digression, not an argument. Or it is a way of insulting someone without having the balls to say what they think.
Not agreeing with re tendering or gender reassignment is not 'behind the times '. It is disagreeing.
You could be insulting someone's religious beliefs or culture, but hey ,that counts for bugger all now. Rant over
I see what you did there.
But aren't they also entitled to an opinion?
Of course. They're entitled to an opinion, but their opinion shouldn't carry more weight than anybody else's, and it shouldn't be allowed to affect how anybody else lives their life.
Others are also entitled to mock their opinion
Mocking is not argument, it is ignorance and a failure to engage. I now know what your stupid photos are . You assume I am elderly and white and I assume racist, islamophobic and anti gay.
Having worked in Africa I am not racist and neither am I anti any religious group. I am not anti gay either. I just get fed up with people going on about sexuality and gender. Why are people so obsessed with that ?
People like you Leroy are an irritation on the bum of life. You mock people in silly pictures when they disagree with you . Quite ridiculous.
I mean, you *literally* posted 'Giving up the streets to the colonies' a few weeks back. You're like The Gammon King - I'll take 'being an irritation on the bum of life' over being a closet bigot, thanks.
AGAIN!
I started this thread to engage in adult conversation about a serious topic imho.
If you want to mock/name call/belittle people then start your own fecking thread as I’m genuinely interested in all views on this matter.
Given me nothing but a headache this thread. For me this woman has to compete in the womens event. Otherwise I'm saying Laurel is only a woman until it comes to sports and then she has to compete in the mens events. Is it for me to tell someone who has probably known from an early age they was born into the wrong body and lived with it for years. That they cant compete in the sex group that they are?
And it gives me a headache thinking about having to tell someone who lines up against Laurel, who was born a woman that she has no choice but to accept it.
There are two sides to this and that can’t be ignored.
We are in the year 2021, we talk about equality maybe it's time to do away with men and womens sport and we all compete under the same umbrella?
Thank you for reminding us of the year we are in. I am sure that anybody who disagrees with you in any way will be reminded of this.
What has 2021 got to do with having a different view on trans gender people.
I am pissed of with woke stances being raised or offering a calendar to argue a point. That is digression, not an argument. Or it is a way of insulting someone without having the balls to say what they think.
Not agreeing with re tendering or gender reassignment is not 'behind the times '. It is disagreeing.
You could be insulting someone's religious beliefs or culture, but hey ,that counts for bugger all now. Rant over
I see what you did there.
But aren't they also entitled to an opinion?
Of course. They're entitled to an opinion, but their opinion shouldn't carry more weight than anybody else's, and it shouldn't be allowed to affect how anybody else lives their life.
Others are also entitled to mock their opinion
Mocking is not argument, it is ignorance and a failure to engage. I now know what your stupid photos are . You assume I am elderly and white and I assume racist, islamophobic and anti gay.
Having worked in Africa I am not racist and neither am I anti any religious group. I am not anti gay either. I just get fed up with people going on about sexuality and gender. Why are people so obsessed with that ?
People like you Leroy are an irritation on the bum of life. You mock people in silly pictures when they disagree with you . Quite ridiculous.
I mean, you *literally* posted 'Giving up the streets to the colonies' a few weeks back. You're like The Gammon King - I'll take 'being an irritation on the bum of life' over being a closet bigot, thanks.
AGAIN!
I started this thread to engage in adult conversation about a serious topic imho.
If you want to mock/name call/belittle people then start your own fecking thread as I’m genuinely interested in all views on this matter.
Thank you.
Apologies. |I think I contributed something valuable earlier, but have become derailed.
I think opinions are something we can't help but have. We do need to question ourselves when our opinions hurt or oppress others and there has to be a balance. I mean, there was a prevailing opinion that homosexuality was wrong and on the day the Alan Turing £50 note has been launched, there is a clear example of how that was wrong and oppressive. It is good we have moved forwards from there and it is right we challenge ourselves surely.
We are indeed very fortunate to live in (what I, at least, consider to be) a society where the overwhelming majority of people take the view that people should be free to do as they choose as long as they are not hurting anyone else. That is definitely an improvement on taking a moral point of view "cos God says".
The really intractable difficulties come, of course, for our kind of society in cases like Laurel Hubbard where two sets of rights/freedoms are in direct opposition to each other.
I think opinions are something we can't help but have. We do need to question ourselves when our opinions hurt or oppress others and there has to be a balance. I mean, there was a prevailing opinion that homosexuality was wrong and on the day the Alan Turing £50 note has been launched, there is a clear example of how that was wrong and oppressive. It is good we have moved forwards from there and it is right we challenge ourselves surely.
We are indeed very fortunate to live in (what I, at least, consider to be) a society where the overwhelming majority of people take the view that people should be free to do as they choose as long as they are not hurting anyone else. That is definitely an improvement on taking a moral point of view "cos God says".
The really intractable difficulties come, of course, for our kind of society in cases like Laurel Hubbard where two sets of rights/freedoms are in direct opposition to each other.
Comments
So do away completely with separate sex sports & have just a free for all?
How the feck is that equal exactly? 🤔
Let’s take football for example.
Do you think EPL teams will be happy being told that in the age of ‘equality’ you have to have equal parts of all genders in your squad going forward?
It sounds wonderful but in reality?
Add to the fact we still struggle with sports persons coming out as gay!
But yeah, it’s 2021 🙄
I can't see many women prepared to face bowlers who exceed 90 mph.
Also, can pretty much guarantee you haven't taken the time to read the report.
Maybe the issue with Hubbard should come down to an independent panel of doctors/experts who can rule on whether being born a man has presented her with an advantage over somebody who was born a woman. I am not qualified to say but maybe the advantage will be more profound in some sports than others. You can turn it on its head and say nature disadvantages a man who wants to compete at the highest level who was born a woman. Rather than make it specifically about sex, we can argue it is the same as somebody born short being at a disadvantage in basketball. It is the hand you are dealt with.
So in some sports and to some extent, ability can overcome certain physical disparities, but then we run into the problem that not all sports are the same.
Cricket and even football there's an argument that skill and talent can overcome physical differences, but in weightlifting or athletics having an inherent strength/mass advantage can't really be overcome just by skill or willpower.
There's not a one size fits all answer and that's the main problem here.
Posting without expressing an opinion:-
Wednesday 23rd – Thursday 24th June 2021
But aren't they also entitled to an opinion?
(And that's all I'm saying on the matter as otherwise this veers into politics/HoC matters.)
Others are also entitled to mock their opinion
But why do you feel it necessary to mock their opinion? Argue against it of course, but mock, insult, call out, scream 'racist', 'fascist', 'homophobe', 'islamophobia', 'anti-Semitic' achieves nothing but entrenches their opinions.
In general (I don't mean this topic or CL specifically) I am getting increasingly frustrated with people dismissing perfectly good opinions because it doesn't fit someone's narrative or it is just wrong, the wrong publication etc. No wonder the majority are getting fed up with being told what to think, that they are wrong to have a different opinion or labelled with an ism.
.I don’t get what he did…
Even though he has expressed opposite views elsewhere on this board - but that doesn't count of course.
The whole “gammon / Karen” thing is quite frankly as racist and obnoxious as the nonsense it’s designed to ridicule…
I started this thread to engage in adult conversation about a serious topic imho.
If you want to mock/name call/belittle people then start your own fecking thread as I’m genuinely interested in all views on this matter.
Thank you.