My two pennies... I had a cousin who transitioned back in 1992. That cousin disappeared after that and went on to live her life as a woman happily elsewhere. I met up with her about 4 years ago. I consider myself as a big strong woman. I would not beat her in an arm wrestle.
Hope no offence caused by this.. trying to add humour.
My two pennies... I had a cousin who transitioned back in 1992. It was a scandal at the time to the family, coming from a big catholic family. That cousin disappeared after that and went on to live her life as a woman happily elsewhere. I met up with her about 4 years ago. I consider myself as a big strong woman. I would not beat her in an arm wrestle.
Hope no offence caused by this.. trying to add humour.
For professional sport, I believe you should only be able to compete as the gender you were born and if you’re not good enough to make it in that gender category then tough.
As for how people identify in life in general, who gives a fuck, it’s their business.
That is part of the point of it isn't it. Mens sport and women's sport is separated so women's sport is protected for women? Not to protect men from being beaten by women?
There have not, as far as I am aware, any instances of women claiming to be a man to win things. Of course some women would "pretend" to be men when women's sport was taboo, but there were serious issues in sport of men claiming to be women in order to win things. It subjected 100s of innocent women to embrassing "sex tests".
And this is a difficult question, where do you draw the line, if indeed you do draw one.
For professional sport, I believe you should only be able to compete as the gender you were born and if you’re not good enough to make it in that gender category then tough.
As for how people identify in life in general, who gives a fuck, it’s their business.
That is part of the point of it isn't it. Mens sport and women's sport is separated so women's sport is protected for women? Not to protect men from being beaten by women?
There have not, as far as I am aware, any instances of women claiming to be a man to win things. Of course some women would "pretend" to be men when women's sport was taboo, but there were serious issues in sport of men claiming to be women in order to win things. It subjected 100s of innocent women to embrassing "sex tests".
And this is a difficult question, where do you draw the line, if indeed you do draw one.
Not quite the same, but similar; I recall reading about some not wheelchair users competing as wheelchair athletes and their being a debate about it. But I don't recall the outcome. I watched part of a program the other day about the cheating that hoes on in para classifications for that athletes get to compete in an class that is advantages - with simple things like taking a cold shower or not taking medication before a classification determination
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.
I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️
What I was just about to say. I find the whole thing a farce. If however I’d had a daughter who lets say had dreamed all her life of being an Olympic swimmer, had been getting up at 5am since 8yrs old for pre-school pool sessions, sacrificed her teenage years and potential career prospects to try and be the best in a low paid sport, only to never have a realistic opportunity because a male elite swimmer had decided to transition, I’d be calling it more than a farce.
No-one has failed to qualify for the Olympics because Laurel Hubbard has been selected. The New Zealand weightlifting team is two and a half times more numerous than at the last Olympics: they're taking more weightlifters. Laurel Hubbard is part of a team, with team-mates, not an competitor who has taken someone else's place.
The examples of a para weightlifting competitor and a made-up swimmer are interesting, but not relevant.
Lauren Hubbard qualified to compete for New Zealand in the Olympics, within the rules of the Olympics and with the support of New Zealand. No-one has missed out.
What about the woman who came second in the New Zealand weightlifting trials in her weight group? Does she have the right to be pissed off for missing the selection?
No. Because she didn't qualify.
But would she IF she had not been beaten by someone with an unfair advantage?
For professional sport, I believe you should only be able to compete as the gender you were born and if you’re not good enough to make it in that gender category then tough.
As for how people identify in life in general, who gives a fuck, it’s their business.
That is part of the point of it isn't it. Mens sport and women's sport is separated so women's sport is protected for women? Not to protect men from being beaten by women?
There have not, as far as I am aware, any instances of women claiming to be a man to win things. Of course some women would "pretend" to be men when women's sport was taboo, but there were serious issues in sport of men claiming to be women in order to win things. It subjected 100s of innocent women to embrassing "sex tests".
And this is a difficult question, where do you draw the line, if indeed you do draw one.
Not quite the same, but similar; I recall reading about some not wheelchair users competing as wheelchair athletes and their being a debate about it. But I don't recall the outcome. I watched part of a program the other day about the cheating that hoes on in para classifications for that athletes get to compete in an class that is advantages - with simple things like taking a cold shower or not taking medication before a classification determination
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.
I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️
What I was just about to say. I find the whole thing a farce. If however I’d had a daughter who lets say had dreamed all her life of being an Olympic swimmer, had been getting up at 5am since 8yrs old for pre-school pool sessions, sacrificed her teenage years and potential career prospects to try and be the best in a low paid sport, only to never have a realistic opportunity because a male elite swimmer had decided to transition, I’d be calling it more than a farce.
No-one has failed to qualify for the Olympics because Laurel Hubbard has been selected. The New Zealand weightlifting team is two and a half times more numerous than at the last Olympics: they're taking more weightlifters. Laurel Hubbard is part of a team, with team-mates, not an competitor who has taken someone else's place.
The examples of a para weightlifting competitor and a made-up swimmer are interesting, but not relevant.
Lauren Hubbard qualified to compete for New Zealand in the Olympics, within the rules of the Olympics and with the support of New Zealand. No-one has missed out.
What about the woman who came second in the New Zealand weightlifting trials in her weight group? Does she have the right to be pissed off for missing the selection?
No. Because she didn't qualify.
But would she IF she had not been beaten by someone with an unfair advantage?
She didn't reach the qualifying standard.
Ah ok, I didn't appreciate that. I wonder what the effect the situation has on the other athletes? It might make some even more determined and others disheartened; not the same but similar to those competing against users of banned drugs
For professional sport, I believe you should only be able to compete as the gender you were born and if you’re not good enough to make it in that gender category then tough.
As for how people identify in life in general, who gives a fuck, it’s their business.
That is part of the point of it isn't it. Mens sport and women's sport is separated so women's sport is protected for women? Not to protect men from being beaten by women?
There have not, as far as I am aware, any instances of women claiming to be a man to win things. Of course some women would "pretend" to be men when women's sport was taboo, but there were serious issues in sport of men claiming to be women in order to win things. It subjected 100s of innocent women to embrassing "sex tests".
And this is a difficult question, where do you draw the line, if indeed you do draw one.
Not quite the same, but similar; I recall reading about some not wheelchair users competing as wheelchair athletes and their being a debate about it. But I don't recall the outcome. I watched part of a program the other day about the cheating that hoes on in para classifications for that athletes get to compete in an class that is advantages - with simple things like taking a cold shower or not taking medication before a classification determination
The Spanish wheel chair basketball team?
No, I think it was road races but there was that too I think. Or was that something to do with learning difficulties, or not? as it turned oit
You can't have a third competition dubbed 'trans'.
There isn't three genders here. People are still either male or female.
Making a 'trans' section just makes the problem worse and actively highlights the fact they aren't considered true females/males in society. To go to the extreme, it will end up looking like society has set up a freak show to laugh at them.
Disallow them because of the unfair advantage sure, but do not segregate them into 'you're not a true woman' category. It would be horrible for trans people worldwide.
For professional sport, I believe you should only be able to compete as the gender you were born and if you’re not good enough to make it in that gender category then tough.
As for how people identify in life in general, who gives a fuck, it’s their business.
That is part of the point of it isn't it. Mens sport and women's sport is separated so women's sport is protected for women? Not to protect men from being beaten by women?
There have not, as far as I am aware, any instances of women claiming to be a man to win things. Of course some women would "pretend" to be men when women's sport was taboo, but there were serious issues in sport of men claiming to be women in order to win things. It subjected 100s of innocent women to embrassing "sex tests".
And this is a difficult question, where do you draw the line, if indeed you do draw one.
Not quite the same, but similar; I recall reading about some not wheelchair users competing as wheelchair athletes and their being a debate about it. But I don't recall the outcome. I watched part of a program the other day about the cheating that hoes on in para classifications for that athletes get to compete in an class that is advantages - with simple things like taking a cold shower or not taking medication before a classification determination
The Spanish wheel chair basketball team?
No, I think it was road races but there was that too I think. Or was that something to do with learning difficulties, or not? as it turned oit
There was an issue a few years back when some able bodied athletes tried to enter the wheelchair division of the Boston Marathon. Their argument was that their mobility gave them no advantage in the race. They were not allowed to compete, but I believe it is allowed in some places and is sometime encouraged as a way to expose the difficulties Paralympic athletes face.
There is a big problem for women's sport and indeed paralympic sport where the best are not the best on the planet. We see the issues around classification in the paralympics which is a minefield.
My view is that it is easier for women's sport as there is less complexity. I agree that there should be a criteria around testosterone levels but allied to that, also sex at birth. That should not detract from a person's right to be classified a woman in everything else, and should be a technical criteria to create a ceiling in sport where a ceiling is needed. In men's sport it clearly isn't. I would also stipulate that women can compete with men where they can without restriction. Otherwise women athletes for instance could devote their lives to achieving something that is impossible.
By using two criteria, the authorities would be excluding natural born women as well as transgender people which in a way makes it more acceptable. Whilst you would have to feel bad for those excluded. Finding a satisfying solution is impossible but I feel this is probably the best way forwards. I would only apply this strictly to elite sport though were the advantage will be more profound. The authorities could also look at allowing trans athletes who haven't gone through puberty to compete in elite women's sport as that seems to be where an advantage that can't be removed is gained.
If they don't ban him/her then the other competitors should refuse to take part that would stymie them, cant see how otherwise it could be a fair competition. Mind you i'm becoming a very reactionary old bugger, and the whole trans thing makes me feel very unsettled, I can't even handle the RuPaul drag thing.
I think the biggest thing I’ve learned here is the age of transition clearly has an influence on competitors strength in weightlifting. This should be the starting point in the discussion going forward. And as the author in the article supplied above states, Hubbard really shouldn’t be the first trans woman competing. It’s actually unfair to her and unfair to trans competitors going forward.
But most importantly for me, it’s a backwards step in woman’s sport.
If they don't ban him/her then the other competitors should refuse to take part that would stymie them, cant see how otherwise it could be a fair competition. Mind you i'm becoming a very reactionary old bugger, and the whole trans thing makes me feel very unsettled, I can't even handle the RuPaul drag thing.
How are you equating people who have transitioned physically with drag Queens ffs?
If they don't ban him/her then the other competitors should refuse to take part that would stymie them, cant see how otherwise it could be a fair competition. Mind you i'm becoming a very reactionary old bugger, and the whole trans thing makes me feel very unsettled, I can't even handle the RuPaul drag thing.
How are you equating people who have transitioned physically with drag Queens ffs?
If they don't ban him/her then the other competitors should refuse to take part that would stymie them, cant see how otherwise it could be a fair competition. Mind you i'm becoming a very reactionary old bugger, and the whole trans thing makes me feel very unsettled, I can't even handle the RuPaul drag thing.
How are you equating people who have transitioned physically with drag Queens ffs?
Is it really 2021?
like I said its my problem.
That's fair enough. At least you aren't ranting about it like some loons 😊
Just seems weird to me. I can't be that much younger than you, and grew up in an era when anyone cross dressing was viewed as a 'poof' (or worse), and my nan still called my black mates 'darkies' (or worse) - so I'm pretty sure we had similar formative years. Don't understand why anyone would look at transgender people (or cross dressers for that matter) with any 'unease' 🤷🏻♂️
If they don't ban him/her then the other competitors should refuse to take part that would stymie them, cant see how otherwise it could be a fair competition. Mind you i'm becoming a very reactionary old bugger, and the whole trans thing makes me feel very unsettled, I can't even handle the RuPaul drag thing.
How are you equating people who have transitioned physically with drag Queens ffs?
Is it really 2021?
Don’t think he’s really equating the two is he, just commenting on the complexities of modern sexuality. Having said that someone who was originally male and now identifies as female and someone who’s male and prefers adopting a female persona isn’t a million miles apart is it.
If they don't ban him/her then the other competitors should refuse to take part that would stymie them, cant see how otherwise it could be a fair competition. Mind you i'm becoming a very reactionary old bugger, and the whole trans thing makes me feel very unsettled, I can't even handle the RuPaul drag thing.
How are you equating people who have transitioned physically with drag Queens ffs?
Is it really 2021?
like I said its my problem.
That's fair enough. At least you aren't ranting about it like some loons 😊
Just seems weird to me. I can't be that much younger than you, and grew up in an era when anyone cross dressing was viewed as a 'poof' (or worse), and my nan still called my black mates 'darkies' (or worse) - so I'm pretty sure we had similar formative years. Don't understand why anyone would look at transgender people (or cross dressers for that matter) with any 'unease' 🤷🏻♂️
Growing up as a kid in the 70s the language used was pretty shocking but thankfully things have improved. A lot of this was simply down to ignorance.
You can't have a third competition dubbed 'trans'.
There isn't three genders here. People are still either male or female.
Making a 'trans' section just makes the problem worse and actively highlights the fact they aren't considered true females/males in society. To go to the extreme, it will end up looking like society has set up a freak show to laugh at them.
Disallow them because of the unfair advantage sure, but do not segregate them into 'you're not a true woman' category. It would be horrible for trans people worldwide.
Aren't there (at least) 4 basic genders; male, female, neither (where neither genitals develop) and both? But currently 2 as far as sport goes, for very good reasons.
Why does not allowing trans females to compete with natural born females mean it isn't accepting them as women.? It isn't because of that, it is because they have an unfair advantage, not because they are not being accepted as women. And it is unfair on natural born females.
It is down to individual opinions whether they are 'true women' or not. They are accepted as women.
Can a man have a baby? I believe a trans man can have a baby. Their are all sorts of (individual and personal reasons for) permutations of trans outcomes; with some having everything they can from their birth sex removed and others retaining some e.g. so a trans man retaining body parts of a natural born woman so they can still have a baby. Does that make them any less a trans man? They are accepted as the sex they want to identify as.
If they don't ban him/her then the other competitors should refuse to take part that would stymie them, cant see how otherwise it could be a fair competition. Mind you i'm becoming a very reactionary old bugger, and the whole trans thing makes me feel very unsettled, I can't even handle the RuPaul drag thing.
How are you equating people who have transitioned physically with drag Queens ffs?
Is it really 2021?
Don’t think he’s really equating the two is he, just commenting on the complexities of modern sexuality. Having said that someone who was originally male and now identifies as female and someone who’s male and prefers adopting a female persona isn’t a million miles apart is it.
Depends on what you define as 'a million miles'. For instance, someone who derives sexual gratification from dressing as a woman, vs someone who is actually inter-gender seems pretty different to me - as 'different' as straight vs gay.
There's nothing wrong with being 'different'. Where its wrong as when people perceive something 'different' as 'wrong'
If they don't ban him/her then the other competitors should refuse to take part that would stymie them, cant see how otherwise it could be a fair competition. Mind you i'm becoming a very reactionary old bugger, and the whole trans thing makes me feel very unsettled, I can't even handle the RuPaul drag thing.
How are you equating people who have transitioned physically with drag Queens ffs?
Is it really 2021?
Don’t think he’s really equating the two is he, just commenting on the complexities of modern sexuality. Having said that someone who was originally male and now identifies as female and someone who’s male and prefers adopting a female persona isn’t a million miles apart is it.
Depends on what you define as 'a million miles'. For instance, someone who derives sexual gratification from dressing as a woman, vs someone who is actually inter-gender seems pretty different to me - as 'different' as straight vs gay.
There's nothing wrong with being 'different'. Where its wrong as when people perceive something 'different' as 'wrong'
I'm in total agreement with the above.
The challenge lies in to what degree we attempt to accommodate every flavour of 'different' into all elements of modern life.
In certain circumstances Spock may just have got it right with "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.”
How many people would actually compete in a Trans Olympics? And would the trans men beat the trans women.
Ridiculous idea.
The Olympics are about the pinnacle of sports not some plaything of a tiny minority of the population who feel they have the right to compete with a significant physiological and medically enhanced advantage.
Why don't the trans community start up a games specifically for the trans community. Cannot see any issues with that at all and it would be a level playing field.
I met a female weightlifter. Despite my many years of being a man, if I transitioned I’d never have beaten her in a women’s competition. Not every man is stronger than every woman, I suspect a strength graph split by gender would be bell curves with a very big overlap.
I met a female weightlifter. Despite my many years of being a man, if I transitioned I’d never have beaten her in a women’s competition. Not every man is stronger than every woman, I suspect a strength graph split by gender would be bell curves with a very big overlap.
Bit of a false equivalence there!
The strongest of men and the strongest of women become Olympic weightlifters - and the strongest of men would ALWAYS beat the strongest of women.
For professional sport, I believe you should only be able to compete as the gender you were born and if you’re not good enough to make it in that gender category then tough.
As for how people identify in life in general, who gives a fuck, it’s their business.
That is part of the point of it isn't it. Mens sport and women's sport is separated so women's sport is protected for women? Not to protect men from being beaten by women?
There have not, as far as I am aware, any instances of women claiming to be a man to win things. Of course some women would "pretend" to be men when women's sport was taboo, but there were serious issues in sport of men claiming to be women in order to win things. It subjected 100s of innocent women to embrassing "sex tests".
And this is a difficult question, where do you draw the line, if indeed you do draw one.
Not quite the same, but similar; I recall reading about some not wheelchair users competing as wheelchair athletes and their being a debate about it. But I don't recall the outcome. I watched part of a program the other day about the cheating that hoes on in para classifications for that athletes get to compete in an class that is advantages - with simple things like taking a cold shower or not taking medication before a classification determination
The Spanish wheel chair basketball team?
It was the Spanish team for the mentally challenged basketball that was made up of people with no mental challenges, other than that they were cheating bastards.
Comments
https://twitter.com/zubymusic/status/1100348562041462784?s=21
Hope no offence caused by this.. trying to add humour.
There have not, as far as I am aware, any instances of women claiming to be a man to win things. Of course some women would "pretend" to be men when women's sport was taboo, but there were serious issues in sport of men claiming to be women in order to win things. It subjected 100s of innocent women to embrassing "sex tests".
And this is a difficult question, where do you draw the line, if indeed you do draw one.
https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1108392/big-read-laurel-hubbard
There isn't three genders here. People are still either male or female.
Making a 'trans' section just makes the problem worse and actively highlights the fact they aren't considered true females/males in society. To go to the extreme, it will end up looking like society has set up a freak show to laugh at them.
Disallow them because of the unfair advantage sure, but do not segregate them into 'you're not a true woman' category. It would be horrible for trans people worldwide.
My view is that it is easier for women's sport as there is less complexity. I agree that there should be a criteria around testosterone levels but allied to that, also sex at birth. That should not detract from a person's right to be classified a woman in everything else, and should be a technical criteria to create a ceiling in sport where a ceiling is needed. In men's sport it clearly isn't. I would also stipulate that women can compete with men where they can without restriction. Otherwise women athletes for instance could devote their lives to achieving something that is impossible.
By using two criteria, the authorities would be excluding natural born women as well as transgender people which in a way makes it more acceptable. Whilst you would have to feel bad for those excluded. Finding a satisfying solution is impossible but I feel this is probably the best way forwards. I would only apply this strictly to elite sport though were the advantage will be more profound. The authorities could also look at allowing trans athletes who haven't gone through puberty to compete in elite women's sport as that seems to be where an advantage that can't be removed is gained.
This should be the starting point in the discussion going forward.
And as the author in the article supplied above states, Hubbard really shouldn’t be the first trans woman competing. It’s actually unfair to her and unfair to trans competitors going forward.
But most importantly for me, it’s a backwards step in woman’s sport.
Is it really 2021?
Just seems weird to me. I can't be that much younger than you, and grew up in an era when anyone cross dressing was viewed as a 'poof' (or worse), and my nan still called my black mates 'darkies' (or worse) - so I'm pretty sure we had similar formative years. Don't understand why anyone would look at transgender people (or cross dressers for that matter) with any 'unease' 🤷🏻♂️
commenting on the complexities of modern sexuality. Having said that
someone who was originally male and now identifies as female and someone who’s male and prefers adopting a female persona isn’t a million miles apart is it.
Why does not allowing trans females to compete with natural born females mean it isn't accepting them as women.? It isn't because of that, it is because they have an unfair advantage, not because they are not being accepted as women. And it is unfair on natural born females.
It is down to individual opinions whether they are 'true women' or not. They are accepted as women.
Can a man have a baby? I believe a trans man can have a baby. Their are all sorts of (individual and personal reasons for) permutations of trans outcomes; with some having everything they can from their birth sex removed and others retaining some e.g. so a trans man retaining body parts of a natural born woman so they can still have a baby. Does that make them any less a trans man? They are accepted as the sex they want to identify as.
There's nothing wrong with being 'different'. Where its wrong as when people perceive something 'different' as 'wrong'
The challenge lies in to what degree we attempt to accommodate every flavour of 'different' into all elements of modern life.
In certain circumstances Spock may just have got it right with "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.”
Ridiculous idea.
The Olympics are about the pinnacle of sports not some plaything of a tiny minority of the population who feel they have the right to compete with a significant physiological and medically enhanced advantage.
Why don't the trans community start up a games specifically for the trans community. Cannot see any issues with that at all and it would be a level playing field.
The strongest of men and the strongest of women become Olympic weightlifters - and the strongest of men would ALWAYS beat the strongest of women.