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Laurel Hubbard
Comments
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why are you posting this in a thread which is explicitly about this subject? Surely anyone would just not click on or look at this thread. I think the only explanation is there's a person who's obsessed with it, and it's you.addick1956 said:
Mocking is not argument, it is ignorance and a failure to engage. I now know what your stupid photos are . You assume I am elderly and white and I assume racist, islamophobic and anti gay.Leroy Ambrose said:
Of course. They're entitled to an opinion, but their opinion shouldn't carry more weight than anybody else's, and it shouldn't be allowed to affect how anybody else lives their life.Addickted said:
I see what you did there.Leroy Ambrose said:addick1956 said:
Thank you for reminding us of the year we are in. I am sure that anybody who disagrees with you in any way will be reminded of this.clb74 said:
We are in the year 2021, we talk about equality maybe it's time to do away with men and womens sport and we all compete under the same umbrella?KBslittlesis said:
And it gives me a headache thinking about having to tell someone who lines up against Laurel, who was born a woman that she has no choice but to accept it.clb74 said:Given me nothing but a headache this thread.
For me this woman has to compete in the womens event.
Otherwise I'm saying Laurel is only a woman until it comes to sports and then she has to compete in the mens events.
Is it for me to tell someone who has probably known from an early age they was born into the wrong body and lived with it for years.
That they cant compete in the sex group that they are?
There are two sides to this and that can’t be ignored.
What has 2021 got to do with having a different view on trans gender people.
I am pissed of with woke stances being raised or offering a calendar to argue a point. That is digression, not an argument. Or it is a way of insulting someone without having the balls to say what they think.
Not agreeing with re tendering or gender reassignment is not 'behind the times '. It is disagreeing.
You could be insulting someone's religious beliefs or culture, but hey ,that counts for bugger all now. Rant over
But aren't they also entitled to an opinion?
Others are also entitled to mock their opinion
Having worked in Africa I am not racist and neither am I anti any religious group. I am not anti gay either. I just get fed up with people going on about sexuality and gender. Why are people so obsessed with that ?
People like you Leroy are an irritation on the bum of life. You mock people in silly pictures when they disagree with you . Quite ridiculous.0 -
Indeed you have and thank you for your apology.Leroy Ambrose said:
Apologies. |I think I contributed something valuable earlier, but have become derailed.KBslittlesis said:
AGAIN!Leroy Ambrose said:
I mean, you *literally* posted 'Giving up the streets to the colonies' a few weeks back. You're like The Gammon King - I'll take 'being an irritation on the bum of life' over being a closet bigot, thanks.addick1956 said:
Mocking is not argument, it is ignorance and a failure to engage. I now know what your stupid photos are . You assume I am elderly and white and I assume racist, islamophobic and anti gay.Leroy Ambrose said:
Of course. They're entitled to an opinion, but their opinion shouldn't carry more weight than anybody else's, and it shouldn't be allowed to affect how anybody else lives their life.Addickted said:
I see what you did there.Leroy Ambrose said:addick1956 said:
Thank you for reminding us of the year we are in. I am sure that anybody who disagrees with you in any way will be reminded of this.clb74 said:
We are in the year 2021, we talk about equality maybe it's time to do away with men and womens sport and we all compete under the same umbrella?KBslittlesis said:
And it gives me a headache thinking about having to tell someone who lines up against Laurel, who was born a woman that she has no choice but to accept it.clb74 said:Given me nothing but a headache this thread.
For me this woman has to compete in the womens event.
Otherwise I'm saying Laurel is only a woman until it comes to sports and then she has to compete in the mens events.
Is it for me to tell someone who has probably known from an early age they was born into the wrong body and lived with it for years.
That they cant compete in the sex group that they are?
There are two sides to this and that can’t be ignored.
What has 2021 got to do with having a different view on trans gender people.
I am pissed of with woke stances being raised or offering a calendar to argue a point. That is digression, not an argument. Or it is a way of insulting someone without having the balls to say what they think.
Not agreeing with re tendering or gender reassignment is not 'behind the times '. It is disagreeing.
You could be insulting someone's religious beliefs or culture, but hey ,that counts for bugger all now. Rant over
But aren't they also entitled to an opinion?
Others are also entitled to mock their opinion
Having worked in Africa I am not racist and neither am I anti any religious group. I am not anti gay either. I just get fed up with people going on about sexuality and gender. Why are people so obsessed with that ?
People like you Leroy are an irritation on the bum of life. You mock people in silly pictures when they disagree with you . Quite ridiculous.
I started this thread to engage in adult conversation about a serious topic imho.
If you want to mock/name call/belittle people then start your own fecking thread as I’m genuinely interested in all views on this matter.
Thank you.1 -
Kent Addick, you "LOL'd" my view that calling someone a Gammon or a Karen is racist. Do you agree with the view that seeking to mock someone using a term that is based on skin colour is racist?SporadicAddick said:
Thanks. Thought they may have been famous people that I didn’t recognise posted to make a specific point.Addickted said:Mocked @addick1956 for being a white elderly gammon.
Even though he has expressed opposite views elsewhere on this board - but that doesn't count of course.
The whole “gammon / Karen” thing is quite frankly as racist and obnoxious as the nonsense it’s designed to ridicule…1 -
Eating too much red meat and applying too little sunscreen is not a race0
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He lols everything he doesn't agree withSporadicAddick said:
Kent Addick, you "LOL'd" my view that calling someone a Gammon or a Karen is racist. Do you agree with the view that seeking to mock someone using a term that is based on skin colour is racist?SporadicAddick said:
Thanks. Thought they may have been famous people that I didn’t recognise posted to make a specific point.Addickted said:Mocked @addick1956 for being a white elderly gammon.
Even though he has expressed opposite views elsewhere on this board - but that doesn't count of course.
The whole “gammon / Karen” thing is quite frankly as racist and obnoxious as the nonsense it’s designed to ridicule…0 -
“This is a term based on skin colour and age – stereotyping by colour or age is wrong no matter what race, age or community.”
But of course only certainly people can have their opinion and call others out!0 -
“This is a term based on skin colour and age – stereotyping by colour or age is wrong no matter what race, age or community.”
But of course only certainly people can have their opinion and call others out!
And https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/gammon-brexiteers-angry-white-men-middle-age-immigration-a8352141.htmlI'm the one who coined the term gammon – and now I deeply regret it
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I don't agree with using the term gammon and not just because in age and skin tone I could be mistaken for one but because it's lazy racial stereotyping.
But I do laugh at SOME people getting upset about it when they have for years defended their "right" to use "non-PC" terms for minority groups on the basis of "free speech" and that people "shouldn't get offended/it's just words."
It's not nice be labelled on the basis of skin colour, is it? So don't do it to others.
NB not pointing the finger at anyone on this thread before you get "offended on someone else's behalf" (another favourite way of defending casual racism/sexism).7 -
What?Leuth said:Eating too much red meat and applying too little sunscreen is not a race0 -
I think what he's getting at is that it can't be racist for one white person to use a derogatory terms about another white person. You could possibly argue it's ageist (though both terms cover such a wide age range I'm not buying thatk, and it's definitely insulting, but it's not racist.KBslittlesis said:
What?Leuth said:Eating too much red meat and applying too little sunscreen is not a race
Now if a black man called a white woman a Karen then that would be racist, in the same way that black people can call each other the n-word, but somebody of a different race can't.0 - Sponsored links:
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I don't know the race of most people on CL.randy andy said:
I think what he's getting at is that it can't be racist for one white person to use a derogatory terms about another white person. You could possibly argue it's ageist (though both terms cover such a wide age range I'm not buying thatk, and it's definitely insulting, but it's not racist.KBslittlesis said:
What?Leuth said:Eating too much red meat and applying too little sunscreen is not a race
Now if a black man called a white woman a Karen then that would be racist, in the same way that black people can call each other the n-word, but somebody of a different race can't.
I thought one of our former players got into a spot of bother over the use of the n-word with another former player? Both black0 -
Just want to say that I worked with one of the blokes in that picture that Leroy posted and a nicer fella you couldn’t wish to meet. Okay, he may not have done himself any favours on Question Time from York (where the picture was taken) and I gave him pelters for his appearance but he’s not a racist, nor any other ‘ist’ and he worked compassionately with a couple of trans prisoners when they were going through various issues on the unit he worked on. He’s had to retire from work as a brain tumour is hastening the end of his life. It’ll be a sad day and cruel day when he passes.4
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"As racist"? How dare you, man.SporadicAddick said:
Thanks. Thought they may have been famous people that I didn’t recognise posted to make a specific point.Addickted said:Mocked @addick1956 for being a white elderly gammon.
Even though he has expressed opposite views elsewhere on this board - but that doesn't count of course.
The whole “gammon / Karen” thing is quite frankly as racist and obnoxious as the nonsense it’s designed to ridicule…
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I don’t think anyone gets offended or upset at being called a gammon/Susan etc, more they are miffed at the hypocrisy/irony/double standards (call it what you like) of those using the term.Henry Irving said:I don't agree with using the term gammon and not just because in age and skin tone I could be mistaken for one but because it's lazy racial stereotyping.
But I do laugh at SOME people getting upset about it when they have for years defended their "right" to use "non-PC" terms for minority groups on the basis of "free speech" and that people "shouldn't get offended/it's just words."
It's not nice be labelled on the basis of skin colour, is it? So don't do it to others.
NB not pointing the finger at anyone on this thread before you get "offended on someone else's behalf" (another favourite way of defending casual racism/sexism).4 -
Anyway……what about this here weightlifter?1
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I know, this is an awful would yaSuedeAdidas said:Anyway……what about this here weightlifter?1 -
Racism is racism - there aren't degrees of racism. If you attack, abuse or denigrate on the basis of skin colour its a racist act and should be called out.PaddyP17 said:
"As racist"? How dare you, man.SporadicAddick said:
Thanks. Thought they may have been famous people that I didn’t recognise posted to make a specific point.Addickted said:Mocked @addick1956 for being a white elderly gammon.
Even though he has expressed opposite views elsewhere on this board - but that doesn't count of course.
The whole “gammon / Karen” thing is quite frankly as racist and obnoxious as the nonsense it’s designed to ridicule…
Anyway, about the weightlifter...She has a distinct and unfair advantage as a result of her transition and therefore in my opinion her presence in the competition is unfair and shouldn't be allowed.
BTW for future reference my pronouns are Sporadic / Sporadic (for now). No harm done but I'm sure as an ally you'll be gender appropriate in your response.1 -
SporadicAddick said:
Racism is racism - there aren't degrees of racism. If you attack, abuse or denigrate on the basis of skin colour its a racist act and should be called out.PaddyP17 said:
"As racist"? How dare you, man.SporadicAddick said:
Thanks. Thought they may have been famous people that I didn’t recognise posted to make a specific point.Addickted said:Mocked @addick1956 for being a white elderly gammon.
Even though he has expressed opposite views elsewhere on this board - but that doesn't count of course.
The whole “gammon / Karen” thing is quite frankly as racist and obnoxious as the nonsense it’s designed to ridicule…
Anyway, about the weightlifter...She has a distinct and unfair advantage as a result of her transition and therefore in my opinion her presence in the competition is unfair and shouldn't be allowed.
BTW for future reference my pronouns are Sporadic / Sporadic (for now). No harm done but I'm sure as an ally you'll be gender appropriate in your response.What?The Holocaust, the African slave trade, segregation and lynchings in the deep south, Kosovo, Uyghur muslims, and calling someone a Gammon. All equal?
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We are talking about calling someone a racist name.bobmunro said:SporadicAddick said:
Racism is racism - there aren't degrees of racism. If you attack, abuse or denigrate on the basis of skin colour its a racist act and should be called out.PaddyP17 said:
"As racist"? How dare you, man.SporadicAddick said:
Thanks. Thought they may have been famous people that I didn’t recognise posted to make a specific point.Addickted said:Mocked @addick1956 for being a white elderly gammon.
Even though he has expressed opposite views elsewhere on this board - but that doesn't count of course.
The whole “gammon / Karen” thing is quite frankly as racist and obnoxious as the nonsense it’s designed to ridicule…
Anyway, about the weightlifter...She has a distinct and unfair advantage as a result of her transition and therefore in my opinion her presence in the competition is unfair and shouldn't be allowed.
BTW for future reference my pronouns are Sporadic / Sporadic (for now). No harm done but I'm sure as an ally you'll be gender appropriate in your response.What?The Holocaust, the African slave trade, segregation and lynchings in the deep south, Kosovo, Uyghur muslims, and calling someone a Gammon. All equal?
Not talking about historical atrocities.
Get a grip.0 -
blackpool72 said:
We are talking about calling someone a racist name.bobmunro said:SporadicAddick said:
Racism is racism - there aren't degrees of racism. If you attack, abuse or denigrate on the basis of skin colour its a racist act and should be called out.PaddyP17 said:
"As racist"? How dare you, man.SporadicAddick said:
Thanks. Thought they may have been famous people that I didn’t recognise posted to make a specific point.Addickted said:Mocked @addick1956 for being a white elderly gammon.
Even though he has expressed opposite views elsewhere on this board - but that doesn't count of course.
The whole “gammon / Karen” thing is quite frankly as racist and obnoxious as the nonsense it’s designed to ridicule…
Anyway, about the weightlifter...She has a distinct and unfair advantage as a result of her transition and therefore in my opinion her presence in the competition is unfair and shouldn't be allowed.
BTW for future reference my pronouns are Sporadic / Sporadic (for now). No harm done but I'm sure as an ally you'll be gender appropriate in your response.What?The Holocaust, the African slave trade, segregation and lynchings in the deep south, Kosovo, Uyghur muslims, and calling someone a Gammon. All equal?
Not talking about historical atrocities.
Get a grip.Kosovo in our lifetimes, Uyghur muslims NOW.My point was to question the statement 'there aren't degrees of racism' - all racism is bad, but no degrees?0 - Sponsored links:
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Late to the party, but I'm here now.
I am amazed at some of the strong views on this subject.
I have always had sympathy for somebody trapped in the wrong body, I can only guess how hard that is and how much it screws with your head. No wonder the suicide rates for people in this position is higher than the norm.
I was always of the understanding that a person with transgender condition has the body of the sex they don't identify with but their brain closely associated the one they do identify with. I don't know how authoritative this link is, but it seems to back this up https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm
If this view/science is correct, it makes a nonsense of the argument that Hubbard is a 'real' woman. She has the brain of a woman in the body of a man.
I think that the term 'trapped in the wrong body' is a good a way of explaining this issue as any and highlights why it isn't fair for transgender athletes to compete against non transgender athletes.
I know some people will argue this isn't the case, but assuming the majority accept this as fact then I see nothing wrong with at least having discussion about a transgender group in the paralympics, this is after all short for 'parallel Olympics'. It may not be a perfect answer but it could be the least worst option.
The IOC have created this controversy because they are too scared of the hatred that will come their way if they didn't allow transgender athletes to compete unfairly. Remember, this is the same organisation that stopped true Olympic values by preventing a new Eddie Edwards from coming forward and competing.
On a final point I have a mate that has fully transitioned, I never thought of bedding him when he had a penis and I have no more interest in bedding him now he hasn't.0 -
There aren't degrees of racism - an act is racist or it isn't. One act may result in "gentle mocking", another in anger or violence, others in genocide - the outcome is different but the genesis is the same.bobmunro said:SporadicAddick said:
Racism is racism - there aren't degrees of racism. If you attack, abuse or denigrate on the basis of skin colour its a racist act and should be called out.PaddyP17 said:
"As racist"? How dare you, man.SporadicAddick said:
Thanks. Thought they may have been famous people that I didn’t recognise posted to make a specific point.Addickted said:Mocked @addick1956 for being a white elderly gammon.
Even though he has expressed opposite views elsewhere on this board - but that doesn't count of course.
The whole “gammon / Karen” thing is quite frankly as racist and obnoxious as the nonsense it’s designed to ridicule…
Anyway, about the weightlifter...She has a distinct and unfair advantage as a result of her transition and therefore in my opinion her presence in the competition is unfair and shouldn't be allowed.
BTW for future reference my pronouns are Sporadic / Sporadic (for now). No harm done but I'm sure as an ally you'll be gender appropriate in your response.What?The Holocaust, the African slave trade, segregation and lynchings in the deep south, Kosovo, Uyghur muslims, and calling someone a Gammon. All equal?
You have stretched the analogy so let me do the same - Hitler didn't start by killing millions of jews, he started by hating them and blaming them for the state of Germany...genocide was the outcome of a personal individual conviction enabled by others over a number of years. (Edited - notwithstanding the fact that they had been a persecuted group for a couple of thousand years before that...)
Do I think that calling someone a gammon now will, in 20 years, lead to the murder of millions of middle aged white men - probably not, but racism is racism.0 -
Fair point.bobmunro said:blackpool72 said:
We are talking about calling someone a racist name.bobmunro said:SporadicAddick said:
Racism is racism - there aren't degrees of racism. If you attack, abuse or denigrate on the basis of skin colour its a racist act and should be called out.PaddyP17 said:
"As racist"? How dare you, man.SporadicAddick said:
Thanks. Thought they may have been famous people that I didn’t recognise posted to make a specific point.Addickted said:Mocked @addick1956 for being a white elderly gammon.
Even though he has expressed opposite views elsewhere on this board - but that doesn't count of course.
The whole “gammon / Karen” thing is quite frankly as racist and obnoxious as the nonsense it’s designed to ridicule…
Anyway, about the weightlifter...She has a distinct and unfair advantage as a result of her transition and therefore in my opinion her presence in the competition is unfair and shouldn't be allowed.
BTW for future reference my pronouns are Sporadic / Sporadic (for now). No harm done but I'm sure as an ally you'll be gender appropriate in your response.What?The Holocaust, the African slave trade, segregation and lynchings in the deep south, Kosovo, Uyghur muslims, and calling someone a Gammon. All equal?
Not talking about historical atrocities.
Get a grip.Kosovo in our lifetimes, Uyghur muslims NOW.My point was to question the statement 'there aren't degrees of racism' - all racism is bad, but no degrees?
Obviously the things you are highlighting are worse than name calling.
But calling someone a name because of their colour is considered racist and rightly so.
So therefore calling a white person a Gammon is in my view a racist comment.0 -
I don't think it is for us to judge whether she is a woman or not. In the best World we can be, she is a woman if she feels she is a woman. It isn't for us to make judgements on that and it is very cruel of anybody to deny her that. What we have in reality is a classification issue similar to the sort of issues they have in disabled sports in terms of where lines are drawn to ensure competition is fair. Competition where those competing have a performance ceiling that others don't.TellyTubby said:Late to the party, but I'm here now.
I am amazed at some of the strong views on this subject.
I have always had sympathy for somebody trapped in the wrong body, I can only guess how hard that is and how much it screws with your head. No wonder the suicide rates for people in this position is higher than the norm.
I was always of the understanding that a person with transgender condition has the body of the sex they don't identify with but their brain closely associated the one they do identify with. I don't know how authoritative this link is, but it seems to back this up https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm
If this view/science is correct, it makes a nonsense of the argument that Hubbard is a 'real' woman. She has the brain of a woman in the body of a man.
I think that the term 'trapped in the wrong body' is a good a way of explaining this issue as any and highlights why it isn't fair for transgender athletes to compete against non transgender athletes.
I know some people will argue this isn't the case, but assuming the majority accept this as fact then I see nothing wrong with at least having discussion about a transgender group in the paralympics, this is after all short for 'parallel Olympics'. It may not be a perfect answer but it could be the least worst option.
The IOC have created this controversy because they are too scared of the hatred that will come their way if they didn't allow transgender athletes to compete unfairly. Remember, this is the same organisation that stopped true Olympic values by preventing a new Eddie Edwards from coming forward and competing.
On a final point I have a mate that has fully transitioned, I never thought of bedding him when he had a penis and I have no more interest in bedding him now he hasn't.0 -
blackpool72 said:
Fair point.bobmunro said:blackpool72 said:
We are talking about calling someone a racist name.bobmunro said:SporadicAddick said:
Racism is racism - there aren't degrees of racism. If you attack, abuse or denigrate on the basis of skin colour its a racist act and should be called out.PaddyP17 said:
"As racist"? How dare you, man.SporadicAddick said:
Thanks. Thought they may have been famous people that I didn’t recognise posted to make a specific point.Addickted said:Mocked @addick1956 for being a white elderly gammon.
Even though he has expressed opposite views elsewhere on this board - but that doesn't count of course.
The whole “gammon / Karen” thing is quite frankly as racist and obnoxious as the nonsense it’s designed to ridicule…
Anyway, about the weightlifter...She has a distinct and unfair advantage as a result of her transition and therefore in my opinion her presence in the competition is unfair and shouldn't be allowed.
BTW for future reference my pronouns are Sporadic / Sporadic (for now). No harm done but I'm sure as an ally you'll be gender appropriate in your response.What?The Holocaust, the African slave trade, segregation and lynchings in the deep south, Kosovo, Uyghur muslims, and calling someone a Gammon. All equal?
Not talking about historical atrocities.
Get a grip.Kosovo in our lifetimes, Uyghur muslims NOW.My point was to question the statement 'there aren't degrees of racism' - all racism is bad, but no degrees?
Obviously the things you are highlighting are worse than name calling.
But calling someone a name because of their colour is considered racist and rightly so.
So therefore calling a white person a Gammon is in my view a racist comment.
We are in agreement.
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Unfortunately, whatever classification system is used - there will always be edge cases....and wherever there are edge cases there will be conflict of some kind.MuttleyCAFC said:
I don't think it is for us to judge whether she is a woman or not. In the best World we can be, she is a woman if she feels she is a woman. It isn't for us to make judgements on that and it is very cruel of anybody to deny her that. What we have in reality is a classification issue similar to the sort of issues they have in disabled sports in terms of where lines are drawn to ensure competition is fair. Competition where those competing have a performance ceiling that others don't.TellyTubby said:Late to the party, but I'm here now.
I am amazed at some of the strong views on this subject.
I have always had sympathy for somebody trapped in the wrong body, I can only guess how hard that is and how much it screws with your head. No wonder the suicide rates for people in this position is higher than the norm.
I was always of the understanding that a person with transgender condition has the body of the sex they don't identify with but their brain closely associated the one they do identify with. I don't know how authoritative this link is, but it seems to back this up https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm
If this view/science is correct, it makes a nonsense of the argument that Hubbard is a 'real' woman. She has the brain of a woman in the body of a man.
I think that the term 'trapped in the wrong body' is a good a way of explaining this issue as any and highlights why it isn't fair for transgender athletes to compete against non transgender athletes.
I know some people will argue this isn't the case, but assuming the majority accept this as fact then I see nothing wrong with at least having discussion about a transgender group in the paralympics, this is after all short for 'parallel Olympics'. It may not be a perfect answer but it could be the least worst option.
The IOC have created this controversy because they are too scared of the hatred that will come their way if they didn't allow transgender athletes to compete unfairly. Remember, this is the same organisation that stopped true Olympic values by preventing a new Eddie Edwards from coming forward and competing.
On a final point I have a mate that has fully transitioned, I never thought of bedding him when he had a penis and I have no more interest in bedding him now he hasn't.
I think that elite sport (especially) needs to make some tough, fairly blunt calls on this topic otherwise it is really is going to get away from them.
I think that further classifications could just muddy the waters......especially if we started to see transitioning athletes in the para sport arenas.2 -
How much can she bench press?TellyTubby said:
On a final point I have a mate that has fully transitioned, I never thought of bedding him when he had a penis and I have no more interest in bedding him now he hasn't.0 -
She can call herself what she wants.MuttleyCAFC said:
I don't think it is for us to judge whether she is a woman or not. In the best World we can be, she is a woman if she feels she is a woman. It isn't for us to make judgements on that and it is very cruel of anybody to deny her that. What we have in reality is a classification issue similar to the sort of issues they have in disabled sports in terms of where lines are drawn to ensure competition is fair. Competition where those competing have a performance ceiling that others don't.TellyTubby said:Late to the party, but I'm here now.
I am amazed at some of the strong views on this subject.
I have always had sympathy for somebody trapped in the wrong body, I can only guess how hard that is and how much it screws with your head. No wonder the suicide rates for people in this position is higher than the norm.
I was always of the understanding that a person with transgender condition has the body of the sex they don't identify with but their brain closely associated the one they do identify with. I don't know how authoritative this link is, but it seems to back this up https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm
If this view/science is correct, it makes a nonsense of the argument that Hubbard is a 'real' woman. She has the brain of a woman in the body of a man.
I think that the term 'trapped in the wrong body' is a good a way of explaining this issue as any and highlights why it isn't fair for transgender athletes to compete against non transgender athletes.
I know some people will argue this isn't the case, but assuming the majority accept this as fact then I see nothing wrong with at least having discussion about a transgender group in the paralympics, this is after all short for 'parallel Olympics'. It may not be a perfect answer but it could be the least worst option.
The IOC have created this controversy because they are too scared of the hatred that will come their way if they didn't allow transgender athletes to compete unfairly. Remember, this is the same organisation that stopped true Olympic values by preventing a new Eddie Edwards from coming forward and competing.
On a final point I have a mate that has fully transitioned, I never thought of bedding him when he had a penis and I have no more interest in bedding him now he hasn't.
It is indeed a cruel situation, but I disagree that its people choosing to be cruel by challenging Hubbard's right to compete against biological women. Its simply acknowledging the facts and being fair to non trans women.4 -
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I agree. But what I am saying is even a blunt call can still be classed as a classification issue rather than one that is denying her right to be a woman. I would say the blunt call is that she is a woman but because she used to be a man, she has an advantage that precludes her from competing. That is if the relevant science confirms this is the case. If she wanted to compete in a ladies chess match, if it was an Olympic event, I would expect there to be no objections at all to that. It can be accepted she is a woman whilst not accepted she can compete.SuedeAdidas said:
Unfortunately, whatever classification system is used - there will always be edge cases....and wherever there are edge cases there will be conflict of some kind.MuttleyCAFC said:
I don't think it is for us to judge whether she is a woman or not. In the best World we can be, she is a woman if she feels she is a woman. It isn't for us to make judgements on that and it is very cruel of anybody to deny her that. What we have in reality is a classification issue similar to the sort of issues they have in disabled sports in terms of where lines are drawn to ensure competition is fair. Competition where those competing have a performance ceiling that others don't.TellyTubby said:Late to the party, but I'm here now.
I am amazed at some of the strong views on this subject.
I have always had sympathy for somebody trapped in the wrong body, I can only guess how hard that is and how much it screws with your head. No wonder the suicide rates for people in this position is higher than the norm.
I was always of the understanding that a person with transgender condition has the body of the sex they don't identify with but their brain closely associated the one they do identify with. I don't know how authoritative this link is, but it seems to back this up https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm
If this view/science is correct, it makes a nonsense of the argument that Hubbard is a 'real' woman. She has the brain of a woman in the body of a man.
I think that the term 'trapped in the wrong body' is a good a way of explaining this issue as any and highlights why it isn't fair for transgender athletes to compete against non transgender athletes.
I know some people will argue this isn't the case, but assuming the majority accept this as fact then I see nothing wrong with at least having discussion about a transgender group in the paralympics, this is after all short for 'parallel Olympics'. It may not be a perfect answer but it could be the least worst option.
The IOC have created this controversy because they are too scared of the hatred that will come their way if they didn't allow transgender athletes to compete unfairly. Remember, this is the same organisation that stopped true Olympic values by preventing a new Eddie Edwards from coming forward and competing.
On a final point I have a mate that has fully transitioned, I never thought of bedding him when he had a penis and I have no more interest in bedding him now he hasn't.
I think that elite sport (especially) needs to make some tough, fairly blunt calls on this topic otherwise it is really is going to get away from them.
I think that further classifications could just muddy the waters......especially if we started to see transitioning athletes in the para sport arenas.2
