Palace away PSF 2021 - match thread (6pm kick off)

killerandflash

I'm trying to remember what foot was Amos' strong one, or whether he was strong enough on his weaker side for it not to matter

Centre backs do have to get used to a new keeper, and which foot is their best if they're very one footed. Pearce's backpass would have been ok if the keeper could clear it with his left foot.

MuttleyCAFC

Famewo and Amos farting about at the back gifted Wimbledon a key goal against us. Just hoof it up to Stockley and compete if nothing is on. It shouldn't be our go to tactic but an option when opponents are pressing effectively.

MrOneLung

Defender doesnt want to lump aimless ball up front, so passes back to goalie to lump aimless ball up front 

cafcfan1990

MuttleyCAFC said:

Famewo and Amos farting about at the back gifted Wimbledon a key goal against us. Just hoof it up to Stockley and compete if nothing is on. It shouldn't be our go to tactic but an option when opponents are pressing effectively.

Definitely, both the keepers pass out to Pearce and then the return to the keeper were stupid yesterday. Should have been smashed out long and could have been easily avoided. 

ct_addick

I was impressed yesterday. Must say Palarse looked shite and nailed on to go down. We've upped the tempo and with the youngs uns in the 2nd half the press worked well. Brilliant goal by Davison. I really like the direction we are going in. 

killerandflash

ct_addick said:

I was impressed yesterday. Must say Palarse looked shite and nailed on to go down. We've upped the tempo and with the youngs uns in the 2nd half the press worked well. Brilliant goal by Davison. I really like the direction we are going in. 

That was nowhere near their strongest team, and Palace will strengthen before the season starts

ct_addick

killerandflash said:

ct_addick said:

I was impressed yesterday. Must say Palarse looked shite and nailed on to go down. We've upped the tempo and with the youngs uns in the 2nd half the press worked well. Brilliant goal by Davison. I really like the direction we are going in. 

That was nowhere near their strongest team, and Palace will strengthen before the season starts

Know that. Just want to get everyone's hopes up

soapy_jones

killerandflash said:

ct_addick said:

I was impressed yesterday. Must say Palarse looked shite and nailed on to go down. We've upped the tempo and with the youngs uns in the 2nd half the press worked well. Brilliant goal by Davison. I really like the direction we are going in. 

That was nowhere near their strongest team, and Palace will strengthen before the season starts

Killerandflash?

Killerandjoy more like!

Covered End

ct_addick said:

I was impressed yesterday. Must say Palarse looked shite and nailed on to go down. We've upped the tempo and with the youngs uns in the 2nd half the press worked well. Brilliant goal by Davison. I really like the direction we are going in. 

Palace had about 4 first teamers playing.

AndyG

Covered End said:

ct_addick said:

I was impressed yesterday. Must say Palarse looked shite and nailed on to go down. We've upped the tempo and with the youngs uns in the 2nd half the press worked well. Brilliant goal by Davison. I really like the direction we are going in. 

Palace had about 4 first teamers playing.

Ok but a premiership team with 4 1st team and then fringe players you would think would be more than a match for a team that according to some on here will struggle in League One this season . They wasnt and the league one team looked the better team imo

Oggy Red

killerandflash said:

I'm trying to remember what foot was Amos' strong one, or whether he was strong enough on his weaker side for it not to matter

Centre backs do have to get used to a new keeper, and which foot is their best if they're very one footed. Pearce's backpass would have been ok if the keeper could clear it with his left foot.

Terrible short ball from the keeper to Pearce under pressure on the edge of the box. Complete hospitable ball. You just don't do that.

But I can't quite believe the keeper controlled Pearce's return backpass with the outside of his foot turning across the face of his goal.
I mean why on earth didn't he just leather the ball first time to clear his lines - even if it had gone Row Z, anywhere?

Six-a-bag-of-nuts

Oggy Red said:

killerandflash said:

I'm trying to remember what foot was Amos' strong one, or whether he was strong enough on his weaker side for it not to matter

Centre backs do have to get used to a new keeper, and which foot is their best if they're very one footed. Pearce's backpass would have been ok if the keeper could clear it with his left foot.

Terrible short ball from the keeper to Pearce under pressure on the edge of the box. Complete hospitable ball. You just don't do that.

But I can't quite believe the keeper controlled Pearce's return backpass with the outside of his foot turning across the face of his goal.
I mean why on earth didn't he just leather the ball first time to clear his lines - even if it had gone Row Z, anywhere?

He didn't want the ball back from Pearce did he.
I think it showed poor judgement and a little lack of confidence on both their parts

killerandflash

Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:

Oggy Red said:

killerandflash said:

I'm trying to remember what foot was Amos' strong one, or whether he was strong enough on his weaker side for it not to matter

Centre backs do have to get used to a new keeper, and which foot is their best if they're very one footed. Pearce's backpass would have been ok if the keeper could clear it with his left foot.

Terrible short ball from the keeper to Pearce under pressure on the edge of the box. Complete hospitable ball. You just don't do that.

But I can't quite believe the keeper controlled Pearce's return backpass with the outside of his foot turning across the face of his goal.
I mean why on earth didn't he just leather the ball first time to clear his lines - even if it had gone Row Z, anywhere?

He didn't want the ball back from Pearce did he.
I think it showed poor judgement and a little lack of confidence on both their parts

I imagine the opposition scouts, having seen the YouTube highlights of the game (if they didn't bother watching the whole games) will be telling their managers to close down our keeper, like the Palace player did, as he's not that comfortable with the ball.

thickandthin63

I am in the pro Jason Pearce camp,the guy  leaves nothing on the pitch,and in spite of the odd error gives his all for the team.However,he is not the ideal outlet,on the edge of his penalty area,being quickly closed down by a very keen Palace player,that ball should have been lumped first time,not given to Jason,he had nowhere to go other than back,which he did,the keeper ,wrong foot or not should have cut his losses and swung a leg,get rid ,not ponce about beating men in his own goal area,a lesson I hope is learnt.

Valley11

mendonca said:

Any links to the highlights? Have only seen our goals.

Hate to give their You Tube channel views but this is a decent highlights package. Mark Bright on co Comms. 

https://youtu.be/q8zc0ydCKsA

mendonca

Thanks. I hope we don't see too much of that from MacGillivray as his goalkeeping looks excellent.  

Portsmouth cited his distribution as an area that might not fit their style of play. I hope we don't see these kinda mistakes often this season.

Oggy Red

mendonca said:

Thanks. I hope we don't see too much of that from MacGillivray as his goalkeeping looks excellent.  

Portsmouth cited his distribution as an area that might not fit their style of play. I hope we don't see these kinda mistakes often this season.

No doubt the coaching staff will be all over that - just can't afford to gift goals to the opposition like that.

And if it is a weakness in MacGillivray's game, then the defence need to be drilled not to put the keeper in that situation.
Prevention is better than cure.

DubaiCAFC

MuttleyCAFC said:

Famewo and Amos farting about at the back gifted Wimbledon a key goal against us. Just hoof it up to Stockley and compete if nothing is on. It shouldn't be our go to tactic but an option when opponents are pressing effectively.

Every single side, makes a mistake playing this way city and barca have done in big games. But we are trying to play the correct way.. one mistake every 46 games isn’t bad, I can live with that.. much rather that, than lumping the ball up field, giving possession away.. which could lead to a goal! In fact, I would love to see the stats, how many goals we conceded lumping it forward, for them coming straight back at us and scoring. No doubt it is higher than we conceded over playing, or even us scoring ourself at the other end!

DubaiCAFC

DubaiCAFC said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Famewo and Amos farting about at the back gifted Wimbledon a key goal against us. Just hoof it up to Stockley and compete if nothing is on. It shouldn't be our go to tactic but an option when opponents are pressing effectively.

Every single side, makes a mistake playing this way city and barca have done in big games. But we are trying to play the correct way.. one mistake every 46 games isn’t bad, I can live with that.. much rather that, than lumping the ball up field, giving possession away.. which could lead to a goal! In fact, I would love to see the stats, how many goals we conceded lumping it forward, for them coming straight back at us and scoring. No doubt it is higher than we conceded over playing, or even us scoring ourself at the other end!

In-fact we actually made a mistake lumping the ball forward that game to. When he sliced the ball straight in the air.

Oggy Red

DubaiCAFC said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Famewo and Amos farting about at the back gifted Wimbledon a key goal against us. Just hoof it up to Stockley and compete if nothing is on. It shouldn't be our go to tactic but an option when opponents are pressing effectively.

Every single side, makes a mistake playing this way city and barca have done in big games. But we are trying to play the correct way.. one mistake every 46 games isn’t bad, I can live with that.. much rather that, than lumping the ball up field, giving possession away.. which could lead to a goal! In fact, I would love to see the stats, how many goals we conceded lumping it forward, for them coming straight back at us and scoring. No doubt it is higher than we conceded over playing, or even us scoring ourself at the other end!

I believe the problem is not so much playing it out from the back.

The problem is knowing when to pass or when to clear your lines.

Crusty54

Oggy Red said:

DubaiCAFC said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Famewo and Amos farting about at the back gifted Wimbledon a key goal against us. Just hoof it up to Stockley and compete if nothing is on. It shouldn't be our go to tactic but an option when opponents are pressing effectively.

Every single side, makes a mistake playing this way city and barca have done in big games. But we are trying to play the correct way.. one mistake every 46 games isn’t bad, I can live with that.. much rather that, than lumping the ball up field, giving possession away.. which could lead to a goal! In fact, I would love to see the stats, how many goals we conceded lumping it forward, for them coming straight back at us and scoring. No doubt it is higher than we conceded over playing, or even us scoring ourself at the other end!

I believe the problem is not so much playing it out from the back.

The problem is knowing when to pass or when to clear your lines.

That is crucial but the accuracy of the passing out from the back (and back to the goalkeeper) leaves a lot to be desired. I was taught to pass in front of a player. The younger players seem to do it.

I have seen Craig MacGillivray kick accurately with both feet in warm ups. However, the passes back are obviously are along the ground.

DubaiCAFC

Crusty54 said:

Oggy Red said:

DubaiCAFC said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Famewo and Amos farting about at the back gifted Wimbledon a key goal against us. Just hoof it up to Stockley and compete if nothing is on. It shouldn't be our go to tactic but an option when opponents are pressing effectively.

Every single side, makes a mistake playing this way city and barca have done in big games. But we are trying to play the correct way.. one mistake every 46 games isn’t bad, I can live with that.. much rather that, than lumping the ball up field, giving possession away.. which could lead to a goal! In fact, I would love to see the stats, how many goals we conceded lumping it forward, for them coming straight back at us and scoring. No doubt it is higher than we conceded over playing, or even us scoring ourself at the other end!

I believe the problem is not so much playing it out from the back.

The problem is knowing when to pass or when to clear your lines.

That is crucial but the accuracy of the passing out from the back (and back to the goalkeeper) leaves a lot to be desired. I was taught to pass in front of a player. The younger players seem to do it.

I have seen Craig MacGillivray kick accurately with both feet in warm ups. However, the passes back are obviously are along the ground.

1st goal, not sure he needed to control the ball, Pearce did make an angle for him.. 2nd goal, was a total lack of technique, head up when striking the ball! 

MuttleyCAFC

DubaiCAFC said:

DubaiCAFC said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Famewo and Amos farting about at the back gifted Wimbledon a key goal against us. Just hoof it up to Stockley and compete if nothing is on. It shouldn't be our go to tactic but an option when opponents are pressing effectively.

Every single side, makes a mistake playing this way city and barca have done in big games. But we are trying to play the correct way.. one mistake every 46 games isn’t bad, I can live with that.. much rather that, than lumping the ball up field, giving possession away.. which could lead to a goal! In fact, I would love to see the stats, how many goals we conceded lumping it forward, for them coming straight back at us and scoring. No doubt it is higher than we conceded over playing, or even us scoring ourself at the other end!

In-fact we actually made a mistake lumping the ball forward that game to. When he sliced the ball straight in the air.

I am not a fan of it. If you lump the ball forward to a big man, even if you lose it, it is harder for opponents to punish you as the ball in their half. I am not saying that should be the go to tactic, but when nothing is on and against teams employing a high press approach, it is the better option IMO.

At our level, every pass has a risk factor, so you can't expect even as little as five simple consecutive passes to come off. So you have to mitigate the risks. It isn't just to the keeper, but fellow defenders. I think some players give the ball to a teammate and think job done. But they should be asking themselves whether the teammate was in a worse position than them and if so, even if the pass was clean, it is a poor pass in my books.

FishCostaFortune

MuttleyCAFC said:

DubaiCAFC said:

DubaiCAFC said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Famewo and Amos farting about at the back gifted Wimbledon a key goal against us. Just hoof it up to Stockley and compete if nothing is on. It shouldn't be our go to tactic but an option when opponents are pressing effectively.

Every single side, makes a mistake playing this way city and barca have done in big games. But we are trying to play the correct way.. one mistake every 46 games isn’t bad, I can live with that.. much rather that, than lumping the ball up field, giving possession away.. which could lead to a goal! In fact, I would love to see the stats, how many goals we conceded lumping it forward, for them coming straight back at us and scoring. No doubt it is higher than we conceded over playing, or even us scoring ourself at the other end!

In-fact we actually made a mistake lumping the ball forward that game to. When he sliced the ball straight in the air.

I am not a fan of it. If you lump the ball forward to a big man, even if you lose it, it is harder for opponents to punish you as the ball in their half. I am not saying that should be the go to tactic, but when nothing is on and against teams employing a high press approach, it is the better option IMO.

At our level, every pass has a risk factor, so you can't expect even as little as five simple consecutive passes to come off. So you have to mitigate the risks. It isn't just to the keeper, but fellow defenders. I think some players give the ball to a teammate and think job done. But they should be asking themselves whether the teammate was in a worse position than them and if so, even if the pass was clean, it is a poor pass in my books.

It's a risk/reward thing I imagine, and the way a lot of 'modern' football is played. If you manage to pass you way out of the high press and break the lines I expect you're going to be in a much better position to create a chance then playing a much more difficult long pass to a lone striker marked by 2 centre backs.

Is it going to work all the time, certainly not at our level, but I'd rather we were brave and tried it against teams. Over the last couple of seasons it would certainly be easier to do if we had someone with a bit more technical ability in the middle of the park - which is where I see Clare being a real asset. 

MuttleyCAFC

At a very basic level, but I always try to work out the number of passes a team has. That is on average, how many they make before they lose possession. Then if you have a reliable figure, you ought to try to make fewer passes on average than that figure.

I have implemented this at the lower level I coached in. My belief is that it applies to all levels of football but the numbers are lower when one team is weaker than their opponents. So we could be a 7 in League One but a 5 in the Championship for instance.

I managed a team that were moved up as cannon fodder three divisions. We were about a 7 in the 4th Division but it became clear, a 3 tops in the first. It isn't just about passing, pace in the right places and fighting for the ball are important, but we turned a season around by making three or less passes. It proved effective against better opponents, much better opponents who we were beating every week.

I have a video of us beating the best team in the league and from the kick off they passed it about and we didn't make more than three the whole match. We beat them 4-1 and missed a penalty. Of course ideally you don't want a figure as low as 3, but I do wonder if we are guilty of passing beyond our capability sometimes. Well before Adkins anyway.

Of course professional clubs, even at our level have far more refinement in their analysis of tactics but this simple way guides my view. 

Oggy Red

Interesting post, Muttley.

If you're playing teams above your level, as you say, it's best to uncomplicate or simplify your game.
Otherwise it's can be difficult to match consistently technically superior teams - and your chances of making a costly error far higher, as these teams are quick to punish that.

Scoham

In our two recent promotion promotion seasons I felt we found a good balance between passing the ball out and going more direct.

Powell’s team were more direct as we had Yann and played a flat 4-4-2. Bowyer’s team passed it short more with the diamond helping that.

So many other seasons we often end them feeling our team doesn’t have a style of play and favoured formation. Robinson did but it was too tippy tappy and we didn’t have the players to make it work, unlike when he got MK Dons promoted (a team including a young Dele Alli and an on fire Will Grigg).

If we get 4/5 more signings and they’re at the level we need I can see Adkins finding that balance and being flexible enough to adapt it when required.

MuttleyCAFC

Oggy Red said:

Interesting post, Muttley.

If you're playing teams above your level, as you say, it's best to uncomplicate or simplify your game.
Otherwise it's can be difficult to match consistently technically superior teams - and your chances of making a costly error far higher, as these teams are quick to punish that.

I don't think it is only above your level. It is say a team that plays a high press well enough which can negate your tactics. Burton away springs to mind last season where we were always an accident waiting to happen. I also believe that a pass that is not to a player in a better position should be considered a minus one. Some players have good passing stats but carry no threat. A player like Pogba will make more errors, but is always looking for a killer pass. If you are going to pass, you need some of those attributes in the side.

Oggy Red

MuttleyCAFC said:

Oggy Red said:

Interesting post, Muttley.

If you're playing teams above your level, as you say, it's best to uncomplicate or simplify your game.
Otherwise it's can be difficult to match consistently technically superior teams - and your chances of making a costly error far higher, as these teams are quick to punish that.

I don't think it is only above your level. It is say a team that plays a high press well enough which can negate your tactics. Burton away springs to mind last season where we were always an accident waiting to happen. I also believe that a pass that is not to a player in a better position should be considered a minus one. Some players have good passing stats but carry no threat. A player like Pogba will make more errors, but is always looking for a killer pass. If you are going to pass, you need some of those attributes in the side.

Sure you do. 

The issue is the playing out from the back around and in just in front of your penalty area ..... that's when a defence becomes particularly vulnerable to a misplaced pass or a hospitable ball to a defender under pressure.

My view ..... it's knowing when to play out from the back or when best to go more direct, when under pressure.
Players like Pogba generally make their killer passes from more advanced positions, where if the move breaks down there's usually more time to regroup.

MuttleyCAFC

Not always in the case o0f Pogba. The thing his critics fail to address is that overall he has a positive impact in terms of goals. Some will point to his mistake for instance in the Euros.