Way too early to write him off , still think he's going to come good once he settles down after those major personal issues . Not quite sure where he fits in positionally though.
Too early to write him off, the same people were likely writing Dobson off along with others.
He would obviously benefit from playing in a system suitable to him with an attacking full back overlapping but we're not going to change our system just to accommodate him. There's a player in there as he's proved at Crewe but our style of play certainly doesn't play to his strengths.
Lolz at people making blanket statements about a players ability when they fell into exactly the same trap at the beginning of the season as well with Clare/Dobson/DJ.
The difference is that when these 3 came back into the side they all looked like they understood what was expected of them and have done well. When Kirk has played recently in cups or league he does not look as if he does. So either he is not being told or he cannot do it, yet. There does not seem to be any intensity in his play, he looks lightweight. Hopefully that can change, or he will have to go.
Since JJ has become caretaker manager he has played one full 90 minutes in an FA cup game, where he got an assist, and 15 minutes against a Morcambe team who were defending for their lives.
It's about relationships all over the field, I said that in pre season, I said that in the past to my players and great to hear JJ say that since he's had the interim managers job. As has been mentioned by others, Kirk was successful when he could dovetail with Pickering at Crewe. Pickering overlapped and he was fed the ball by Kirk or it was a dummy run confusing the defender and Charlie cuts on to his right foot. Coaches and Analysts of other clubs know this ploy but it can only be stopped by two defenders unless a defender guesses correctly.
Kirk's best hope of redemption is having a good understanding with Purrington plus linking up well and being the guy who gives the ball away the less. DJ, CBT and Leko need a certain Jeopardy in their game because they can be game changers where I see Kirk as a player who can be good with game management when we are leading and maybe not chasing a game for the winner unlike Tuesday.
This is where coaches and managers earn their money when a player is struggling to find a position in the 1st 11; and they find a solution.
There was some decent interplay with Lee when Charlie came on and Conor but a defensive Morecambe were hard to break down.
Charlton fans love to write players off quickly, with saying Clare and Dobson were bad signings when I thought they both had promise and i would judge them when they had an opportunity to establish a relationship with Gilbey (Covid) and Lee when he was match fit.
he played 12 minutes at Morcambe against a team who had settled back into packing the defence and looking to break quickly. So not much space to operate up front, and plenty of scope for another problem with a misplaced pass, and bear in mind he has barely figured since Cheltenham. At 23 years old, I sincerely doubt he has peaked yet, and most players do not become bad overnight (there are exceptions like Poyet who peaked as a youngster with us). That his style of play may not fit into our current set up is a much more relevant arguement, but we may well need to change formation from time to time when things are not working, and you need alternative styles of player to do that. Swapping like for like won't cut it for an entire season. He certainly hasn't lived up to his billing on arrival, but between the loss of his father and the dire start we had with a lot of the currently highly rated players being questioned or written off by the fan base, I don't think we have seen enough to judge. If jacko decides it isn't working out, I'll take that as an expert opinion, but there are a lot of people slating Kirk simply as they have moved on from doing the same with Jayesimi, Clare, Dobson and others, and refuse to admit that maybe it's their opinion of the player is out of line, not Kirk. Time will tell, but the fanbase slating a promising footballer says a lot more about our fans than the player, especially this season.
Yet what you have seen is encapsulated in just 5 league starts.
Did you understand how the 4-2-3-1 system Adkins was supposed to work? Did you understand how we specifically played with the wide players in the 3 offering 6 functions. 1 - being pinned to the touchlines to provide width and stretch the play 2 - reading the play to time runs in support of Stockley when on your side of the field 3 - attack the box/ back post when play is on the opposite of the field 4 - instigate the press when the opposition play is on your side of the field 5 - drop into defensive shape when the opposition play is on the other side of he field 6 - play to one not very mobile target man
Crucially each of those roles are
a) dependent on a fundamental stable midfield platform - which didn’t exist. b) requiring a balanced supportive left sided attack skillset - which didn’t exist
Within his 7 overall appearances we have played 4-2-3-1 with a variance to 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 3-5-2, and with 4 left backs Roddy, Purrington, Gunter and Souare alongside Clayden, Morgan, Clare, Watson, Gilbey, and Lee as his left sided partners.
He has had twice the number of left sided partners than starts.
I simply do not know what style of player he is but physically he does fit a hard running, tough tackling, defensive pressing, defensive platform type of player.
He appears on balance to a be a « flair » player who needs a consistent platform to play from, multiple mobile running targets to hit and stretch the play, to link to and then make supporting late runs into and around the box.
At the moment he doesn’t seem to have a plethora of targets to hit (Step 1) to then support, (Step 2) which can be a real bugger. All pure supposition of course because I have not seen half of the 413 minutes on the field of play.
It seems that it's possible that there is a very good player in him, his statistics at Crewe are impressive. However they were all when he was part of a specific system which is not in place at Charlton.
He's stuck in an unfortunate position where all of the positions he could theoretically play are covered by players in good form, and he's not shown enough to displace them on merit.
He needs to play more regularly to improve his confidence/form, but he's not shown enough form to play regularly. Maybe a loan is the best option in January.
Far too early to write him off, but I can see a loan back to Crewe in January to let him play some games in familiar surroundings...he certainly doesn't fit our current system
Reeves' goals/assists/key passes for us really weren't bad. I mean they existed at all for one (Kirk's one league assist so far was a layoff to Leko who did pretty much everything himself)
He was right in front of me on Tuesday. The Morecambe defence left acres of space in front of him to run towards or at least nearer the goal line, and instead defended more centrally as they KNEW he would cut inside.
Yes he's right footed, yes he's down in confidence, but I was really disappointed he didn't at least try to attack them on the outside, just to give the defenders something to think about. Even if you can't get the ball in the box, try and win a corner
I actually though yesterday that him not wanting to run at the defenders and to pass back seemed more like a confidence issue than an ability issue. I remember the Gilbey podcast when he mentioned that when he was performing badly for us that it made him want to play negatively and pass backwards out of fear of doing more damage than good, could be similar in my opinion.
Players will always play safe if unsure of options, absence of runners/outlet, low confidence, etc. It's drummed into the modern day player not to give the ball away cheaply. Naturally, many will play safe rather than take risk.
It's a new system for Kirk, compared to Crewe or even when he first joined Charlton. He's not a 1st team regular ...... but he is training with the new formation/system every day, same as every other player.
Importantly, he is played as the classic 'introverted winger', a right footed player playing on his 'wrong side'; the idea being he can cut inside, pass and shoot. No defender is going to let him do that unless stretched with an overlap on the left touchline.
At Morecambe, Kirk came on in place of Purrington, who dropped into the left sided CB position. No overlapping fullback. With team mates showing fatigue, lack of energy and movement, he didn't have much outlet. Remember, it's drummed into players not to give the ball away cheaply - he didn't.
Being on his 'wrong' side he's not going to consistantly be able to take on his fullback on the outside. It's not his game at all, although in tight situations, he's got quick feet and a good touch to unlock packed defences and wriggle his way into the box.
The lad's got potential, no doubt. But whether he can quickly adapt into Jacko's system, we'll have to see.
I actually though yesterday that him not wanting to run at the defenders and to pass back seemed more like a confidence issue than an ability issue. I remember the Gilbey podcast when he mentioned that when he was performing badly for us that it made him want to play negatively and pass backwards out of fear of doing more damage than good, could be similar in my opinion.
Players will always play safe if unsure of options, absence of runners/outlet, low confidence, etc. It's drummed into the modern day player not to give the ball away cheaply. Naturally, many will play safe rather than take risk.
It's a new system for Kirk, compared to Crewe or even when he first joined Charlton. He's not a 1st team regular ...... but he is training with the new formation/system every day, same as every other player.
Importantly, he is played as the classic 'introverted winger', a right footed player playing on his 'wrong side'; the idea being he can cut inside, pass and shoot. No defender is going to let him do that unless stretched with an overlap on the left touchline.
At Morecambe, Kirk came on in place of Purrington, who dropped into the left sided CB position. No overlapping fullback. With team mates showing fatigue, lack of energy and movement, he didn't have much outlet. Remember, it's drummed into players not to give the ball away cheaply - he didn't.
Being on his 'wrong' side he's not going to consistantly be able to take on his fullback on the outside. It's not his game at all, although in tight situations, he's got quick feet and a good touch to unlock packed defences and wriggle his way into the box.
The lad's got potential, no doubt. But whether he can quickly adapt into Jacko's system, we'll have to see.
Jacko has been here for 5 weeks now, so that's reasonable amount of time to adapt. After all the likes of Leko, DJ and Clare have had to play in alien positions to them, and done well.
Indeed Leko played right wing back after a day's training between Accrington and Sunderland!
How can you write him off, none of us have seen enough of him yet
Absolutely this. Especially as he had 15 mins the other night. I personally think he’ll be good. He just needs to make his mark, which will happen over the course of what is still a long season.
I actually though yesterday that him not wanting to run at the defenders and to pass back seemed more like a confidence issue than an ability issue. I remember the Gilbey podcast when he mentioned that when he was performing badly for us that it made him want to play negatively and pass backwards out of fear of doing more damage than good, could be similar in my opinion.
Players will always play safe if unsure of options, absence of runners/outlet, low confidence, etc. It's drummed into the modern day player not to give the ball away cheaply. Naturally, many will play safe rather than take risk.
It's a new system for Kirk, compared to Crewe or even when he first joined Charlton. He's not a 1st team regular ...... but he is training with the new formation/system every day, same as every other player.
Importantly, he is played as the classic 'introverted winger', a right footed player playing on his 'wrong side'; the idea being he can cut inside, pass and shoot. No defender is going to let him do that unless stretched with an overlap on the left touchline.
At Morecambe, Kirk came on in place of Purrington, who dropped into the left sided CB position. No overlapping fullback. With team mates showing fatigue, lack of energy and movement, he didn't have much outlet. Remember, it's drummed into players not to give the ball away cheaply - he didn't.
Being on his 'wrong' side he's not going to consistantly be able to take on his fullback on the outside. It's not his game at all, although in tight situations, he's got quick feet and a good touch to unlock packed defences and wriggle his way into the box.
The lad's got potential, no doubt. But whether he can quickly adapt into Jacko's system, we'll have to see.
Jacko has been here for 5 weeks now, so that's reasonable amount of time to adapt. After all the likes of Leko, DJ and Clare have had to play in alien positions to them, and done well.
Indeed Leko played right wing back after a day's training between Accrington and Sunderland!
And they've all done well, in a team that played with energy and intensity, great movement and supported each other well.
But it was a tired old team that played that 2nd half at Morecambe. When Kirk came on, it was a team that despite good possession stats had lost intensity and movement, excepting Washington and Gilbey.
Most players were overplaying the ball, not being decisive, and the runs were not being made. To single out Kirk in the limited time he had IMO is a bit harsh, especially in a team that wasn't quite at the races.
If you need to play a very specific formation a very specific way for a player to have really any use at all, might I suggest that that player had better be bloody amazing in those specific circumstances
If you need to play a very specific formation a very specific way for a player to have really any use at all, might I suggest that that player had better be bloody amazing in those specific circumstances
One thing that does concern me is his attitude. He just seems a bit lazy and miserable, which was highlighted by Artell a number of times.
He walks around the pitch and sulks if things aren’t going his way. Even in the dressing room videos, he’s either got his head down or looking at his phone. The only time he really looks lively is when Jackson jokes about giving them another day off.
I hope it works out for him as he clearly has ability, I just don’t know if it will work for him here. He’s the polar opposite of an Elliot Lee or Alex Gilbey, people who’d I’d class as “proper Charlton” players.
One thing that does concern me is his attitude. He just seems a bit lazy and miserable, which was highlighted by Artell a number of times.
He walks around the pitch and sulks if things aren’t going his way. Even in the dressing room videos, he’s either got his head down or looking at his phone. The only time he really looks lively is when Jackson jokes about giving them another day off.
I hope it works out for him as he clearly has ability, I just don’t know if it will work for him here. He’s the polar opposite of an Elliot Lee or Alex Gilbey, people who’d I’d class as “proper Charlton” players.
Is it lazy or demotivated? Because given his personal circumstances, he could well be struggling honestly.
One thing that does concern me is his attitude. He just seems a bit lazy and miserable, which was highlighted by Artell a number of times.
He walks around the pitch and sulks if things aren’t going his way. Even in the dressing room videos, he’s either got his head down or looking at his phone. The only time he really looks lively is when Jackson jokes about giving them another day off.
I hope it works out for him as he clearly has ability, I just don’t know if it will work for him here. He’s the polar opposite of an Elliot Lee or Alex Gilbey, people who’d I’d class as “proper Charlton” players.
Is it lazy or demotivated? Because given his personal circumstances, he could well be struggling honestly.
Probably a bit of both, but that’s not really an excuse as he had this reputation at Crewe.
He’s got a 4 year deal so I’m happy to give him time, but I can’t see him getting into the 3-5-2. Could do with a loan in January.
The guy is getting absolutely torn apart here, you'd think he came on and had a stinker, he didn't even do anything wrong.
He’s hardly getting torn apart. It’s mostly people discussing how he fits into the team and perhaps why he hasn’t looked very good so far.
To be fair, you've just questioned his personality because he was looking at his phone in the dressing room video.
Come on, you’re being disingenuous there.
I mentioned looking at his phone during a team talk as one part of a multifaceted situation. I also mentioned his reputation at Crewe of appearing lazy and disinterested on and off the football pitch.
I like Charlie Kirk as a player and I was really happy we signed him, that doesn’t mean I can’t pose concerns about how a known issue could impact his chances of success here.
Comments
For an attacking player who doesn't want to press, you'd expect to see a very good dribbler, passer or striker of the ball.
He would obviously benefit from playing in a system suitable to him with an attacking full back overlapping but we're not going to change our system just to accommodate him. There's a player in there as he's proved at Crewe but our style of play certainly doesn't play to his strengths.
As has been mentioned by others, Kirk was successful when he could dovetail with Pickering at Crewe. Pickering overlapped and he was fed the ball by Kirk or it was a dummy run confusing the defender and Charlie cuts on to his right foot. Coaches and Analysts of other clubs know this ploy but it can only be stopped by two defenders unless a defender guesses correctly.
Kirk's best hope of redemption is having a good understanding with Purrington plus linking up well and being the guy who gives the ball away the less. DJ, CBT and Leko need a certain Jeopardy in their game because they can be game changers where I see Kirk as a player who can be good with game management when we are leading and maybe not chasing a game for the winner unlike Tuesday.
This is where coaches and managers earn their money when a player is struggling to find a position in the 1st 11; and they find a solution.
There was some decent interplay with Lee when Charlie came on and Conor but a defensive Morecambe were hard to break down.
Charlton fans love to write players off quickly, with saying Clare and Dobson were bad signings when I thought they both had promise and i would judge them when they had an opportunity to establish a relationship with Gilbey (Covid) and Lee when he was match fit.
At 23 years old, I sincerely doubt he has peaked yet, and most players do not become bad overnight (there are exceptions like Poyet who peaked as a youngster with us). That his style of play may not fit into our current set up is a much more relevant arguement, but we may well need to change formation from time to time when things are not working, and you need alternative styles of player to do that. Swapping like for like won't cut it for an entire season.
He certainly hasn't lived up to his billing on arrival, but between the loss of his father and the dire start we had with a lot of the currently highly rated players being questioned or written off by the fan base, I don't think we have seen enough to judge. If jacko decides it isn't working out, I'll take that as an expert opinion, but there are a lot of people slating Kirk simply as they have moved on from doing the same with Jayesimi, Clare, Dobson and others, and refuse to admit that maybe it's their opinion of the player is out of line, not Kirk. Time will tell, but the fanbase slating a promising footballer says a lot more about our fans than the player, especially this season.
It is what YOU don’t see.
Yet what you have seen is encapsulated in just 5 league starts.
Did you understand how the 4-2-3-1 system Adkins was supposed to work? Did you understand how we specifically played with the wide players in the 3 offering 6 functions.
1 - being pinned to the touchlines to provide width and stretch the play
2 - reading the play to time runs in support of Stockley when on your side of the field
3 - attack the box/ back post when play is on the opposite of the field
4 - instigate the press when the opposition play is on your side of the field
5 - drop into defensive shape when the opposition play is on the other side of he field
6 - play to one not very mobile target man
Crucially each of those roles are
a) dependent on a fundamental stable midfield platform - which didn’t exist.
b) requiring a balanced supportive left sided attack skillset - which didn’t exist
Within his 7 overall appearances we have played 4-2-3-1 with a variance to 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 3-5-2, and with 4 left backs Roddy, Purrington, Gunter and Souare alongside Clayden, Morgan, Clare, Watson, Gilbey, and Lee as his left sided partners.
He has had twice the number of left sided partners than starts.
I simply do not know what style of player he is but physically he does fit a hard running, tough tackling, defensive pressing, defensive platform type of player.
He appears on balance to a be a « flair » player who needs a consistent platform to play from, multiple mobile running targets to hit and stretch the play, to link to and then make supporting late runs into and around the box.
At the moment he doesn’t seem to have a plethora of targets to hit (Step 1) to then support, (Step 2) which can be a real bugger. All pure supposition of course because I have not seen half of the 413 minutes on the field of play.
He's stuck in an unfortunate position where all of the positions he could theoretically play are covered by players in good form, and he's not shown enough to displace them on merit.
He needs to play more regularly to improve his confidence/form, but he's not shown enough form to play regularly. Maybe a loan is the best option in January.
Yes he's right footed, yes he's down in confidence, but I was really disappointed he didn't at least try to attack them on the outside, just to give the defenders something to think about. Even if you can't get the ball in the box, try and win a corner
It's drummed into the modern day player not to give the ball away cheaply. Naturally, many will play safe rather than take risk.
It's a new system for Kirk, compared to Crewe or even when he first joined Charlton.
He's not a 1st team regular ...... but he is training with the new formation/system every day, same as every other player.
Importantly, he is played as the classic 'introverted winger', a right footed player playing on his 'wrong side'; the idea being he can cut inside, pass and shoot. No defender is going to let him do that unless stretched with an overlap on the left touchline.
At Morecambe, Kirk came on in place of Purrington, who dropped into the left sided CB position.
No overlapping fullback. With team mates showing fatigue, lack of energy and movement, he didn't have much outlet.
Remember, it's drummed into players not to give the ball away cheaply - he didn't.
Being on his 'wrong' side he's not going to consistantly be able to take on his fullback on the outside.
It's not his game at all, although in tight situations, he's got quick feet and a good touch to unlock packed defences and wriggle his way into the box.
The lad's got potential, no doubt. But whether he can quickly adapt into Jacko's system, we'll have to see.
Indeed Leko played right wing back after a day's training between Accrington and Sunderland!
I personally think he’ll be good. He just needs to make his mark, which will happen over the course of what is still a long season.
But it was a tired old team that played that 2nd half at Morecambe.
When Kirk came on, it was a team that despite good possession stats had lost intensity and movement, excepting Washington and Gilbey.
Most players were overplaying the ball, not being decisive, and the runs were not being made.
To single out Kirk in the limited time he had IMO is a bit harsh, especially in a team that wasn't quite at the races.
"I thought he was gonna be betterer Scottie. I told him, when I was in midfield, you gotta do everything."
He’s got a 4 year deal so I’m happy to give him time, but I can’t see him getting into the 3-5-2. Could do with a loan in January.
I like Charlie Kirk as a player and I was really happy we signed him, that doesn’t mean I can’t pose concerns about how a known issue could impact his chances of success here.