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Scott Fraser - pg 29 - Joins Hearts on loan for rest of season

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    I asked this question yesterday, but can anybody name the top three footballing attributes of Scott Fraser?
    I genuinely want to be persuaded that the next three seasons with him will be worthwhile.
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    Cafc43v3r said:
    How many creative players are we going to write off as 'shit' before we start to question the coaching, the manager and the tactics?

    Charlie Kirk - good player at this level, a number of goals and assists for Crewe.
    Elliott Lee - good player at this level, won promotion with Luton out of this league, scored 6 in 18 with Oxford last year.
    Scott Fraser - good player at this level, did well at Burton and was superb for MK Dons.

    Possibly you could also even add Oztumer who was great at this level for Walsall and now deemed good enough to be playing in the Turkish top flight.

    If we're signing these players, then surely we sign them because they're good at playing a certain role and therefore we should know how to get the best out of them.

    If they all suddenly become shit within a few weeks of signing for us, then the problem (in my opinion) is not with the players.
    I think it's much more this than anything else.  Creative players, especially at league 1 level, are all very different and generally crap at anything other than their specialty.

    Oztumer, and Williams, are good examples of that.  They are both 10s, signed to play at the top of the diamond.  Both could do that but when we moved to different formations, partly down to the emergence of Doughty you had to ask them to do something else.  They couldn't. 

    Lee isn't a 10, neither is Fraser, but that's where we have mainly played him. 

    You can't plug Kirk into a Millar shape hole and expect it to work.

    Millar is probably the poster boy for this though.  In his first 3 halves for us he played up front in a 2, left of a 3, left of a midfield 4 and as a 10.  That says to me "we think he is good and will work out what to do with him later".

    I am not sure it's limited to creative players either, I think there is/was a bit of this going on with Dobson and Clare as well. 
    This is spot on.
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    seth plum said:
    I asked this question yesterday, but can anybody name the top three footballing attributes of Scott Fraser?
    I genuinely want to be persuaded that the next three seasons with him will be worthwhile.
    His record from penalties is excellent and he should be taking them moving forward, in spite of JJ saying he is happy with Conor taking them (I certainly am not).

    Plays with his head up and I think in time he will continue his high assist ratio.

    Allegedly a good free kick taker, including goal scoring ones.

    Fingers crossed mate.
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    Our recruitment seems to focus on whether the player is good or not but not whether they fit into the playing style the manager wants. Can't remember the last time we signed one of our top targets and thought he fits exactly what we are trying to do.
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    Our recruitment seems to focus on whether the player is good or not but not whether they fit into the playing style the manager wants. Can't remember the last time we signed one of our top targets and thought he fits exactly what we are trying to do.
    The championship season, in the summer, was the last time we signed a load of round pegs for round holes.  Despite the budget issues. 
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    I don't rate him, but of course I hope that he eventually proves me very wrong and is successful in a winning team .. still he is with us til 2025 .. question is, why such a long deal .. (see also Aneke, the invisible invalid)
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    There's a lot of talk here about individual attributes.

    Fraser is a good technical player ... a good eye for a pass and he has the attribute that all decent footballers need ... the ability to see things quickly and execute an almost pre-planned pass instinctively.

    What he lacks is physicality.  So, he needs a 'minder' alongside him.  Football is a team game and it's about partnerships all across the pitch.

    You will see the best of Fraser ... and it's good ... when we play him in front of two solid and aggressive ball-winners.  Dobson may be one.  But we need another.
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    Dave Rudd said:
    There's a lot of talk here about individual attributes.

    Fraser is a good technical player ... a good eye for a pass and he has the attribute that all decent footballers need ... the ability to see things quickly and execute an almost pre-planned pass instinctively.

    What he lacks is physicality.  So, he needs a 'minder' alongside him.  Football is a team game and it's about partnerships all across the pitch.

    You will see the best of Fraser ... and it's good ... when we play him in front of two solid and aggressive ball-winners.  Dobson may be one.  But we need another.
    If we do that we will end up with 3 center backs, 2 defensive midfielders and a full back (if we continue this set up) which is probably at least 1 too many. 
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    edited April 2022
    Cafc43v3r said:
    How many creative players are we going to write off as 'shit' before we start to question the coaching, the manager and the tactics?

    Charlie Kirk - good player at this level, a number of goals and assists for Crewe.
    Elliott Lee - good player at this level, won promotion with Luton out of this league, scored 6 in 18 with Oxford last year.
    Scott Fraser - good player at this level, did well at Burton and was superb for MK Dons.

    Possibly you could also even add Oztumer who was great at this level for Walsall and now deemed good enough to be playing in the Turkish top flight.

    If we're signing these players, then surely we sign them because they're good at playing a certain role and therefore we should know how to get the best out of them.

    If they all suddenly become shit within a few weeks of signing for us, then the problem (in my opinion) is not with the players.
    I think it's much more this than anything else.  Creative players, especially at league 1 level, are all very different and generally crap at anything other than their specialty.

    Oztumer, and Williams, are good examples of that.  They are both 10s, signed to play at the top of the diamond.  Both could do that but when we moved to different formations, partly down to the emergence of Doughty you had to ask them to do something else.  They couldn't. 

    Lee isn't a 10, neither is Fraser, but that's where we have mainly played him. 

    You can't plug Kirk into a Millar shape hole and expect it to work.

    Millar is probably the poster boy for this though.  In his first 3 halves for us he played up front in a 2, left of a 3, left of a midfield 4 and as a 10.  That says to me "we think he is good and will work out what to do with him later".

    I am not sure it's limited to creative players either, I think there is/was a bit of this going on with Dobson and Clare as well. 
    So it's the fault of our management/recruitment team then?

    A manager will ideally have a set way of playing, which in Jackson's case is clearly 352 and therefore we should be signing players who can slot straight into a role in that formation. We seem to be doing things the other way round, signing players and then trying to work out how they can best fit into the team...........and then shock horror it's not working. 

    I'm pretty sure Klopp doesn't go and sign a player and then have no idea where to play him. His signings will be signed to play a specific role/position in the side.

    Instead we have left backs, right backs, midfielders playing centre back, attacking wingers playing a wing back role and then at times wondering why they're caught out defensively, creative players we're not sure where to play them, and then we often just bypass them and whack it long to Stockley anyway.

    I know Jackson has only had one window, so i'm happy to let him sign his own players this summer and give him a few months into next season to see how he can re-shape the lineup but honestly i think the whole recruitment process needs a serious shake up. You can probably count on one hand the signings over the past couple of seasons who'd be classed as a success and we've easily signed 20+ players in that time.
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    Admittedly Fraser does not yet look sharp (or happy) but he also  looks like a classy player in a rubbish team.
    He's Scottish. How many happy Scots do you know?
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    Dave Rudd said:
    There's a lot of talk here about individual attributes.

    Fraser is a good technical player ... a good eye for a pass and he has the attribute that all decent footballers need ... the ability to see things quickly and execute an almost pre-planned pass instinctively.

    What he lacks is physicality.  So, he needs a 'minder' alongside him.  Football is a team game and it's about partnerships all across the pitch.

    You will see the best of Fraser ... and it's good ... when we play him in front of two solid and aggressive ball-winners.  Dobson may be one.  But we need another.
    he's a six foot Scot from Dundee ! .. he'd be VERY upset to hear that he needs nursing along  :/
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    He strikes me as a player who needs other midfielder's that are give and go with movement, players that are comfortable on the ball.

    Hopefully we will sign some players that will make this gel.  I also would have thought a player like JFC around him will help.  
    Yes, he can thread through some lovely passes if his team mates make runs and get into space.
    No play maker will be at their best if they have players alongside them like Gilbey, who possibly hides from the ball instead of making runs and demanding the ball. Lee, Morgan et al don't run into space, they run into dead ends.
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    If he lacks physicality then he needs to develop it more.
    Not saying he should become Vinnie Jones, but a touch of the toughness would help.
    This league is not ballet but battling.
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    edited April 2022
    seth plum said:
    I asked this question yesterday, but can anybody name the top three footballing attributes of Scott Fraser?
    I genuinely want to be persuaded that the next three seasons with him will be worthwhile.
    He is very good at threading passes through (but you need your team mates to be running into space to be effective, not much use if the players are static or behind you).

    He did have a lot of energy to get up and down the pitch, but a combination of not playing much this season and Covid appear to have sapped his energy levels at present.

    He plays with his head up and can spot where the ball should go, unlike people like Lee who run in circles with their head down.

    He's an excellent free kick taker.
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    Cafc43v3r said:
    Dave Rudd said:
    There's a lot of talk here about individual attributes.

    Fraser is a good technical player ... a good eye for a pass and he has the attribute that all decent footballers need ... the ability to see things quickly and execute an almost pre-planned pass instinctively.

    What he lacks is physicality.  So, he needs a 'minder' alongside him.  Football is a team game and it's about partnerships all across the pitch.

    You will see the best of Fraser ... and it's good ... when we play him in front of two solid and aggressive ball-winners.  Dobson may be one.  But we need another.
    If we do that we will end up with 3 center backs, 2 defensive midfielders and a full back (if we continue this set up) which is probably at least 1 too many. 
    If you say.
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    edited April 2022
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Dave Rudd said:
    There's a lot of talk here about individual attributes.

    Fraser is a good technical player ... a good eye for a pass and he has the attribute that all decent footballers need ... the ability to see things quickly and execute an almost pre-planned pass instinctively.

    What he lacks is physicality.  So, he needs a 'minder' alongside him.  Football is a team game and it's about partnerships all across the pitch.

    You will see the best of Fraser ... and it's good ... when we play him in front of two solid and aggressive ball-winners.  Dobson may be one.  But we need another.
    If we do that we will end up with 3 center backs, 2 defensive midfielders and a full back (if we continue this set up) which is probably at least 1 too many. 
    I'd have thought one of the reasons we persist with playing a fullback is because we don't have 2 decent defensive/box-to-box midfielders. The lopsided 3-5-2 is to make up for that deficiency. 

    I'd imagine Nile John was signed with the possibility of becoming that second midfielder with the energy to cover the ground if the wing back(s) were caught up field. 

    In fact that makes sense of our January signings. Castillo as a proper wingback on the left with DJ/CBT on the other side and John in the middle with Dobson and Fraser/Lee. That looks like a more traditional 3-5-2. The problem is that neither Castillo or John worked out, so we're stuck with the lopsided shape to try and provide cover.
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    Dave Rudd said:
    There's a lot of talk here about individual attributes.

    Fraser is a good technical player ... a good eye for a pass and he has the attribute that all decent footballers need ... the ability to see things quickly and execute an almost pre-planned pass instinctively.

    What he lacks is physicality.  So, he needs a 'minder' alongside him.  Football is a team game and it's about partnerships all across the pitch.

    You will see the best of Fraser ... and it's good ... when we play him in front of two solid and aggressive ball-winners.  Dobson may be one.  But we need another.
    he's a six foot Scot from Dundee ! .. he'd be VERY upset to hear that he needs nursing along  :/
    Yes, he'd probably be so upset that he'd go off for a quick sulk.

    That's the point.  He lacks an aggressive mentality.  So, he's second best in most physical challenges.  In fact, he'll duck out rather than contest.
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    Dave Rudd said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Dave Rudd said:
    There's a lot of talk here about individual attributes.

    Fraser is a good technical player ... a good eye for a pass and he has the attribute that all decent footballers need ... the ability to see things quickly and execute an almost pre-planned pass instinctively.

    What he lacks is physicality.  So, he needs a 'minder' alongside him.  Football is a team game and it's about partnerships all across the pitch.

    You will see the best of Fraser ... and it's good ... when we play him in front of two solid and aggressive ball-winners.  Dobson may be one.  But we need another.
    If we do that we will end up with 3 center backs, 2 defensive midfielders and a full back (if we continue this set up) which is probably at least 1 too many. 
    If you say.
    Don't you think so? 
  • Options
    God this place is awful after a defeat. Fraser hasn’t been as good as we had hoped yet, and there are plenty of potential explanations for that. 

    Hope we win tonight so all this goes away for another few days at least.
    We should just ignore all defeats....... 
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    Dazzler21 said:
    He strikes me as a player who needs other midfielder's that are give and go with movement, players that are comfortable on the ball.

    Hopefully we will sign some players that will make this gel.  I also would have thought a player like JFC around him will help.  
     Dobson
    Fraser - F.Caskey

    That'll be our midfield three next season.
    We will need two more midfield players additionally to those 3 and I would hope one to cover Dobson and the other to do the JFC or Fraser roles.  Otherwise we will be back in the same situation as this season.

        
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    Cafc43v3r said:
    Dave Rudd said:
    There's a lot of talk here about individual attributes.

    Fraser is a good technical player ... a good eye for a pass and he has the attribute that all decent footballers need ... the ability to see things quickly and execute an almost pre-planned pass instinctively.

    What he lacks is physicality.  So, he needs a 'minder' alongside him.  Football is a team game and it's about partnerships all across the pitch.

    You will see the best of Fraser ... and it's good ... when we play him in front of two solid and aggressive ball-winners.  Dobson may be one.  But we need another.
    If we do that we will end up with 3 center backs, 2 defensive midfielders and a full back (if we continue this set up) which is probably at least 1 too many. 
    I'd have thought one of the reasons we persist with playing a fullback is because we don't have 2 decent defensive/box-to-box midfielders. The lopsided 3-5-2 is to make up for that deficiency. 

    I'd imagine Nile John was signed with the possibility of becoming that second midfielder with the energy to cover the ground if the wing back(s) were caught up field. 

    In fact that makes sense of our January signings. Castillo as a proper wingback on the left with DJ/CBT on the other side and John in the middle with Dobson and Fraser/Lee. That looks like a more traditional 3-5-2. The problem is that neither Castillo or John worked out, so we're stuck with the lopsided shape to try and provide cover.
    I forgot to factor in the returning JFC. In theory we could play 2 wingbacks/wingers if we have Dobson, JFC and one other in midfield. The problem then is that at the moment that 3rd midfielder would be one of Gilbey, Lee, Frasier or Morgan, all of whom lack something in their game to nail down that spot. Frasier is the one who could make the step up as his stats suggest that he has the goals/assists in his locker.
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    Dave Rudd said:
    There's a lot of talk here about individual attributes.

    Fraser is a good technical player ... a good eye for a pass and he has the attribute that all decent footballers need ... the ability to see things quickly and execute an almost pre-planned pass instinctively.

    What he lacks is physicality.  So, he needs a 'minder' alongside him.  Football is a team game and it's about partnerships all across the pitch.

    You will see the best of Fraser ... and it's good ... when we play him in front of two solid and aggressive ball-winners.  Dobson may be one.  But we need another.
    So basically he can only play as a number 10 in 4231.  We do not own a striker that can play up front on his own, which I suspect is why Jacko is so wedded to this 352 system. 

    I’ve not seen any of that technical ability , by the way.  Can’t wait to be proven wrong .  
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    Cafc43v3r said:
    How many creative players are we going to write off as 'shit' before we start to question the coaching, the manager and the tactics?

    Charlie Kirk - good player at this level, a number of goals and assists for Crewe.
    Elliott Lee - good player at this level, won promotion with Luton out of this league, scored 6 in 18 with Oxford last year.
    Scott Fraser - good player at this level, did well at Burton and was superb for MK Dons.

    Possibly you could also even add Oztumer who was great at this level for Walsall and now deemed good enough to be playing in the Turkish top flight.

    If we're signing these players, then surely we sign them because they're good at playing a certain role and therefore we should know how to get the best out of them.

    If they all suddenly become shit within a few weeks of signing for us, then the problem (in my opinion) is not with the players.
    I think it's much more this than anything else.  Creative players, especially at league 1 level, are all very different and generally crap at anything other than their specialty.

    Oztumer, and Williams, are good examples of that.  They are both 10s, signed to play at the top of the diamond.  Both could do that but when we moved to different formations, partly down to the emergence of Doughty you had to ask them to do something else.  They couldn't. 

    Lee isn't a 10, neither is Fraser, but that's where we have mainly played him. 

    You can't plug Kirk into a Millar shape hole and expect it to work.

    Millar is probably the poster boy for this though.  In his first 3 halves for us he played up front in a 2, left of a 3, left of a midfield 4 and as a 10.  That says to me "we think he is good and will work out what to do with him later".

    I am not sure it's limited to creative players either, I think there is/was a bit of this going on with Dobson and Clare as well. 
    I wouldn’t say Jackson using a 10, we have Dobson holding with two ahead of him. One might get forward more often but they’re equally expected to play as CMs and defend rather than sit higher up in the 10 role.

    I’d also say Lee is a 10, he played at the tip of a diamond for Luton. Jackson’s played him deeper and it worked for a while but over time we’ve seen he’s not suited to it.
  • Options
    edited April 2022
    Scoham said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    How many creative players are we going to write off as 'shit' before we start to question the coaching, the manager and the tactics?

    Charlie Kirk - good player at this level, a number of goals and assists for Crewe.
    Elliott Lee - good player at this level, won promotion with Luton out of this league, scored 6 in 18 with Oxford last year.
    Scott Fraser - good player at this level, did well at Burton and was superb for MK Dons.

    Possibly you could also even add Oztumer who was great at this level for Walsall and now deemed good enough to be playing in the Turkish top flight.

    If we're signing these players, then surely we sign them because they're good at playing a certain role and therefore we should know how to get the best out of them.

    If they all suddenly become shit within a few weeks of signing for us, then the problem (in my opinion) is not with the players.
    I think it's much more this than anything else.  Creative players, especially at league 1 level, are all very different and generally crap at anything other than their specialty.

    Oztumer, and Williams, are good examples of that.  They are both 10s, signed to play at the top of the diamond.  Both could do that but when we moved to different formations, partly down to the emergence of Doughty you had to ask them to do something else.  They couldn't. 

    Lee isn't a 10, neither is Fraser, but that's where we have mainly played him. 

    You can't plug Kirk into a Millar shape hole and expect it to work.

    Millar is probably the poster boy for this though.  In his first 3 halves for us he played up front in a 2, left of a 3, left of a midfield 4 and as a 10.  That says to me "we think he is good and will work out what to do with him later".

    I am not sure it's limited to creative players either, I think there is/was a bit of this going on with Dobson and Clare as well. 
    I wouldn’t say Jackson using a 10, we have Dobson holding with two ahead of him. One might get forward more often but they’re equally expected to play as CMs and defend rather than sit higher up in the 10 role.

    I’d also say Lee is a 10, he played at the tip of a diamond for Luton. Jackson’s played him deeper and it worked for a while but over time we’ve seen he’s not suited to it.
    From what I have noticed, and I believe Callum might have a average map which backs this up, is that certainly when we are in possession of the ball both the CM's in front of Dobson are asked to peel to the left and right respectively. 

    Neither of them ever appear to take up an advanced position in the center of the pitch, which is why we never have options there to pass to, apart from when Stockley drops in deep. 
  • Options
    Scoham said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    How many creative players are we going to write off as 'shit' before we start to question the coaching, the manager and the tactics?

    Charlie Kirk - good player at this level, a number of goals and assists for Crewe.
    Elliott Lee - good player at this level, won promotion with Luton out of this league, scored 6 in 18 with Oxford last year.
    Scott Fraser - good player at this level, did well at Burton and was superb for MK Dons.

    Possibly you could also even add Oztumer who was great at this level for Walsall and now deemed good enough to be playing in the Turkish top flight.

    If we're signing these players, then surely we sign them because they're good at playing a certain role and therefore we should know how to get the best out of them.

    If they all suddenly become shit within a few weeks of signing for us, then the problem (in my opinion) is not with the players.
    I think it's much more this than anything else.  Creative players, especially at league 1 level, are all very different and generally crap at anything other than their specialty.

    Oztumer, and Williams, are good examples of that.  They are both 10s, signed to play at the top of the diamond.  Both could do that but when we moved to different formations, partly down to the emergence of Doughty you had to ask them to do something else.  They couldn't. 

    Lee isn't a 10, neither is Fraser, but that's where we have mainly played him. 

    You can't plug Kirk into a Millar shape hole and expect it to work.

    Millar is probably the poster boy for this though.  In his first 3 halves for us he played up front in a 2, left of a 3, left of a midfield 4 and as a 10.  That says to me "we think he is good and will work out what to do with him later".

    I am not sure it's limited to creative players either, I think there is/was a bit of this going on with Dobson and Clare as well. 
    I wouldn’t say Jackson using a 10, we have Dobson holding with two ahead of him. One might get forward more often but they’re equally expected to play as CMs and defend rather than sit higher up in the 10 role.

    I’d also say Lee is a 10, he played at the tip of a diamond for Luton. Jackson’s played him deeper and it worked for a while but over time we’ve seen he’s not suited to it.
    It's a bit of semantics but he isn't playing in the position or role that made him successful at other clubs.  Which is the main point. 
  • Options
    Cafc43v3r said:
    God this place is awful after a defeat. Fraser hasn’t been as good as we had hoped yet, and there are plenty of potential explanations for that. 

    Hope we win tonight so all this goes away for another few days at least.
    We should just ignore all defeats....... 
    No, but we shouldn’t over react to them (especially ones where we were so clearly superior to the opposition on the back of three straight clean sheet wins)

    Fraser at his best covers lots of the ground but also has a high energy team around him, like at MK Dons. 

    Out of all the signings in the last 12 months, I’m more sure he’ll come good than anyone else and was our number one target in the summer.

    People need to see the simple things he does. His pass completion is excellent, it’s in the right area, it’s to feet. Just give him time to get fully settled before we see him at his absolute best.
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    RC_CAFC said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    God this place is awful after a defeat. Fraser hasn’t been as good as we had hoped yet, and there are plenty of potential explanations for that. 

    Hope we win tonight so all this goes away for another few days at least.
    We should just ignore all defeats....... 
    No, but we shouldn’t over react to them (especially ones where we were so clearly superior to the opposition on the back of three straight clean sheet wins)

    Fraser at his best covers lots of the ground but also has a high energy team around him, like at MK Dons. 

    Out of all the signings in the last 12 months, I’m more sure he’ll come good than anyone else and was our number one target in the summer.

    People need to see the simple things he does. His pass completion is excellent, it’s in the right area, it’s to feet. Just give him time to get fully settled before we see him at his absolute best.
    His passes thus far have all been sideways and low risk.  Dobson and JFC were attempting far more challenging passes on Saturday .  

    Anyway , I hope to be proven wrong and that he is outstanding next season .  
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    wmcf123 said:
    RC_CAFC said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    God this place is awful after a defeat. Fraser hasn’t been as good as we had hoped yet, and there are plenty of potential explanations for that. 

    Hope we win tonight so all this goes away for another few days at least.
    We should just ignore all defeats....... 
    No, but we shouldn’t over react to them (especially ones where we were so clearly superior to the opposition on the back of three straight clean sheet wins)

    Fraser at his best covers lots of the ground but also has a high energy team around him, like at MK Dons. 

    Out of all the signings in the last 12 months, I’m more sure he’ll come good than anyone else and was our number one target in the summer.

    People need to see the simple things he does. His pass completion is excellent, it’s in the right area, it’s to feet. Just give him time to get fully settled before we see him at his absolute best.
    His passes thus far have all been sideways and low risk.  Dobson and JFC were attempting far more challenging passes on Saturday .  

    Anyway , I hope to be proven wrong and that he is outstanding next season .  
    Disagree. 
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    RC_CAFC said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    God this place is awful after a defeat. Fraser hasn’t been as good as we had hoped yet, and there are plenty of potential explanations for that. 

    Hope we win tonight so all this goes away for another few days at least.
    We should just ignore all defeats....... 
    No, but we shouldn’t over react to them (especially ones where we were so clearly superior to the opposition on the back of three straight clean sheet wins)

    Fraser at his best covers lots of the ground but also has a high energy team around him, like at MK Dons. 

    Out of all the signings in the last 12 months, I’m more sure he’ll come good than anyone else and was our number one target in the summer.

    People need to see the simple things he does. His pass completion is excellent, it’s in the right area, it’s to feet. Just give him time to get fully settled before we see him at his absolute best.
    It's not the defeats though is it, its the fact we are generally "a bit shit" and have been for the best part of 2 years.  We beat the very shit and some times beat the slightly better teams.

    It's not knee jerk to say that he hasn't impressed, because he hasn't.  He didn't when we played Ipswich or MK Dons away last season. 

    I have seen no evidence, apart from when we gave him the freedom of the Valley, that he is good enough to be an essential building block in a promotion winning team.  Which in all honesty is what we all want him to be.

    We have signed so many players over the last 18 months that have come with big reputations and have been bigged up to the nth degree and by and large they have all failed.  I seriously see no reason to be blindly optimistic that this one will be different.

    Written off?  No of course not.  Overly optimistic?  No to many recent examples to not be I am afraid. 
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