Oh dear. A bit of a controversial end to the England v India Women's international. With 17 runs and one wicket in hand, the Indian bowler elects to Mankad Dean for 47 to win the game.
It was within the laws of the game but it was not within the spirit of the game. Really poor by India imo.
It may be in the laws of the game but outright cheating in my book. The batsmen wasn't even out of the crease if she had bowled as normal. Didn't do it when we were 50 short and 9 down. Only did it when in danger of losing. I blame the 100.
I'm of the opinion that a warning should still be given as batsmen shouldn't be stealing yards. This season a Kent Prem bowler twice had to warn a batsman for doing so and still didn't take the bails off. Perhaps he should have done so on the second occasion as that might have been the difference between winning and losing the game.
Where it becomes a bit farcical is the situation where a bowler is deliberately looking to run the non striker out each and every ball and continually stops in their delivery stride. I saw a young lad successfully "run out" two batsmen doing so in the same innings but unsuccessfully on numerous other occasions. The game becomes a farce then and the bowler's attempts to take a wicket are worse than a keeper whipping the bails off each and every ball just in case.
usually I think “ well You don’t have to give them a warning not to hit the balls to the slips” and the batsman is usually gaining an advantage, but in this instance the bowler seems to actively try and engineer the situation and trapping her, when Dean didn’t seem to be trying to actually gain advantage
Very similar to the Ashwin/Buttler one from a few years ago.
Batter is not trying to take a massive advantage, just backing up. In both cases they are not leaving the crease until the ball would’ve left the bowlers hand, with the bowler faking bowling and then turning around.
I reckon almost every delivery (from a spinner) sent down in any white ball game of the last few years, the bowler would be able to do that and run out the non-striker, but they don’t, because it’s shit sporting behaviour.
Joke really, not what sport is about. Scummy thing to do not at all in the spirit of the game.
Its about what I expect from certain nations.
Same here. If someone had said to me that something like this was going to happen. The two sides that would have sprung to mind would be India and Australia. I doubt any other country would have done it.
There has been a lot of objection to this dismissal being called the "Mankad" and it is actually treated as "Run out" so far as the Laws are concerned. Having watched the incident again and given that the bowler clearly never had any intention of bowling the ball, it should actually be re-named the "Deepti" which is Mankading by deception.
The Laws need to be looked at but as it stands that's just no way to win a game of cricket.
If I were the skipper I would have withdrawn the appeal
the laws have been amended to 'allow' this form of dismissal .. this game was not a friendly played on the old village green, it was a game between two hard professional teams .. I didn't see the game, just a picture in today's paper. It seems that when the bails were removed, Dean was quite a way outside her crease, therefore she was trying to gain an unfair advantage and she didn't get away with it .. in my long ago days as a bowler, non striking batsmen leaving their ground too early used to really piss me off .. IF when batting I went down the wicket and was stumped, I didn't expect the keeper to 'let me off with a warning', I was out .. all this about 'not cricket' is for the birds, try to take an unfair advantage and get found out, tough, you're out .. in football, if you are if front of the last defender when the ball is passed to you, you're offside no ifs or buts .. IF you stray beyond your crease before the bowler bowls, you deserve to be given out
The Laws need to be looked at but as it stands that's just no way to win a game of cricket.
If I were the skipper I would have withdrawn the appeal
the laws have been amended to 'allow' this form of dismissal .. this game was not a friendly played on the old village green, it was a game between two hard professional teams .. I didn't see the game, just a picture in today's paper. It seems that when the bails were removed, Dean was quite a way outside her crease, therefore she was trying to gain an unfair advantage and she didn't get away with it .. in my long ago days as a bowler, non striking batsmen leaving their ground too early used to really piss me off .. IF when batting I went down the wicket and was stumped, I didn't expect the keeper to 'let me off with a warning', I was out .. all this about 'not cricket' is for the birds, try to take an unfair advantage and get found out, tough, you're out .. in football, if you are if front of the last defender when the ball is passed to you, you're offside no ifs or buts .. IF you stray beyond your crease before the bowler bowls, you deserve to be given out
Its a shame that you only saw the newspaper image. There’s a tweet further up the page on this thread showing the ‘dismissal’ in full. Maybe then decide if the batter was trying to take an unfair advantage.
Here’s a screenshot of the frame where Dean left her crease. The bowler had already stopped her action and was just staring at the non-striker.
The Laws need to be looked at but as it stands that's just no way to win a game of cricket.
If I were the skipper I would have withdrawn the appeal
the laws have been amended to 'allow' this form of dismissal .. this game was not a friendly played on the old village green, it was a game between two hard professional teams .. I didn't see the game, just a picture in today's paper. It seems that when the bails were removed, Dean was quite a way outside her crease, therefore she was trying to gain an unfair advantage and she didn't get away with it .. in my long ago days as a bowler, non striking batsmen leaving their ground too early used to really piss me off .. IF when batting I went down the wicket and was stumped, I didn't expect the keeper to 'let me off with a warning', I was out .. all this about 'not cricket' is for the birds, try to take an unfair advantage and get found out, tough, you're out .. in football, if you are if front of the last defender when the ball is passed to you, you're offside no ifs or buts .. IF you stray beyond your crease before the bowler bowls, you deserve to be given out
Its a shame that you only saw the newspaper image. There’s a tweet further up the page on this thread showing the ‘dismissal’ in full. Maybe then decide if the batter was trying to take an unfair advantage.
Here’s a screenshot of the frame where Dean left her crease. The bowler had already stopped her action and was just staring at the non-striker.
the commentary says it all 'it's in the laws of the game' .. so don't leave your crease until the ball has left the bowler's hand, DO NOT ANTICIPATE .. in this case the bowler outsmarted the batter .. unfortunate but there you go
The Laws need to be looked at but as it stands that's just no way to win a game of cricket.
If I were the skipper I would have withdrawn the appeal
the laws have been amended to 'allow' this form of dismissal .. this game was not a friendly played on the old village green, it was a game between two hard professional teams .. I didn't see the game, just a picture in today's paper. It seems that when the bails were removed, Dean was quite a way outside her crease, therefore she was trying to gain an unfair advantage and she didn't get away with it .. in my long ago days as a bowler, non striking batsmen leaving their ground too early used to really piss me off .. IF when batting I went down the wicket and was stumped, I didn't expect the keeper to 'let me off with a warning', I was out .. all this about 'not cricket' is for the birds, try to take an unfair advantage and get found out, tough, you're out .. in football, if you are if front of the last defender when the ball is passed to you, you're offside no ifs or buts .. IF you stray beyond your crease before the bowler bowls, you deserve to be given out
I agree about players who habitually try to gain an advantage but the photo you've seen doesn't tell the whole story. At the time that Deepti plants her front foot it is debatable whether Dean is out of her ground and therefore she wouldn't have been trying at the normal point of delivery trying to "steal" ground. Equally, Deepti is looking at Dean rather than where she is bowling the ball and almost certainly would have had to pull out of her delivery at that point even if Dean had been in. Which is clearly what Saggers, the Umpire, thought she was doing when he had half an attempt at calling "dead ball". Dean should have been aware of the situation but she wasn't watching the bowler which is a fundamental mistake and why it looks like she was trying to nick a couple of yards in the photo you've seen.
A warning should have been issued. It doesn't matter if this was a professional game or not as there is an acceptance by most playing that this isn't in the "Spirit of the Game". We've now had Mankad, Ashwin and Deepti do it and that isn't a coincidence although Tendulkar managed to overturn one of Ashwin's attempt at taking a wicket. If we take this to the nth degree then cricket will become even slower because some players will always be looking to take a wicket in that way.
The Laws need to be looked at but as it stands that's just no way to win a game of cricket.
If I were the skipper I would have withdrawn the appeal
the laws have been amended to 'allow' this form of dismissal .. this game was not a friendly played on the old village green, it was a game between two hard professional teams .. I didn't see the game, just a picture in today's paper. It seems that when the bails were removed, Dean was quite a way outside her crease, therefore she was trying to gain an unfair advantage and she didn't get away with it .. in my long ago days as a bowler, non striking batsmen leaving their ground too early used to really piss me off .. IF when batting I went down the wicket and was stumped, I didn't expect the keeper to 'let me off with a warning', I was out .. all this about 'not cricket' is for the birds, try to take an unfair advantage and get found out, tough, you're out .. in football, if you are if front of the last defender when the ball is passed to you, you're offside no ifs or buts .. IF you stray beyond your crease before the bowler bowls, you deserve to be given out
I agree about players who habitually try to gain an advantage but the photo you've seen doesn't tell the whole story. At the time that Deepti plants her front foot it is debatable whether Dean is out of her ground and therefore she wouldn't have been trying at the normal point of delivery trying to "steal" ground. Equally, Deepti is looking at Dean rather than where she is bowling the ball and almost certainly would have had to pull out of her delivery at that point even if Dean had been in. Which is clearly what Saggers, the Umpire, thought she was doing when he had half an attempt at calling "dead ball". Dean should have been aware of the situation but she wasn't watching the bowler which is a fundamental mistake and why it looks like she was trying to nick a couple of yards in the photo you've seen.
A warning should have been issued. It doesn't matter if this was a professional game or not as there is an acceptance by most playing that this isn't in the "Spirit of the Game". We've now had Mankad, Ashwin and Deepti do it and that isn't a coincidence although Tendulkar managed to overturn one of Ashwin's attempt at taking a wicket. If we take this to the nth degree then cricket will become even slower because some players will always be looking to take a wicket in that way.
disagree about a warning and 'the spirit of the game'; ,, as I have written this was not a village green friendly .. you put up a good case for the defence, BUT this was a PROESSIONAL game with prestige and money at stake, Dean should, as you write, have been aware of the situation, she wasn't, so tough .. she will know better next time
The Laws need to be looked at but as it stands that's just no way to win a game of cricket.
If I were the skipper I would have withdrawn the appeal
the laws have been amended to 'allow' this form of dismissal .. this game was not a friendly played on the old village green, it was a game between two hard professional teams .. I didn't see the game, just a picture in today's paper. It seems that when the bails were removed, Dean was quite a way outside her crease, therefore she was trying to gain an unfair advantage and she didn't get away with it .. in my long ago days as a bowler, non striking batsmen leaving their ground too early used to really piss me off .. IF when batting I went down the wicket and was stumped, I didn't expect the keeper to 'let me off with a warning', I was out .. all this about 'not cricket' is for the birds, try to take an unfair advantage and get found out, tough, you're out .. in football, if you are if front of the last defender when the ball is passed to you, you're offside no ifs or buts .. IF you stray beyond your crease before the bowler bowls, you deserve to be given out
I agree about players who habitually try to gain an advantage but the photo you've seen doesn't tell the whole story. At the time that Deepti plants her front foot it is debatable whether Dean is out of her ground and therefore she wouldn't have been trying at the normal point of delivery trying to "steal" ground. Equally, Deepti is looking at Dean rather than where she is bowling the ball and almost certainly would have had to pull out of her delivery at that point even if Dean had been in. Which is clearly what Saggers, the Umpire, thought she was doing when he had half an attempt at calling "dead ball". Dean should have been aware of the situation but she wasn't watching the bowler which is a fundamental mistake and why it looks like she was trying to nick a couple of yards in the photo you've seen.
A warning should have been issued. It doesn't matter if this was a professional game or not as there is an acceptance by most playing that this isn't in the "Spirit of the Game". We've now had Mankad, Ashwin and Deepti do it and that isn't a coincidence although Tendulkar managed to overturn one of Ashwin's attempt at taking a wicket. If we take this to the nth degree then cricket will become even slower because some players will always be looking to take a wicket in that way.
disagree about a warning and 'the spirit of the game'; ,, as I have written this was not a village green friendly .. you put up a good case for the defence, BUT this was a PROESSIONAL game with prestige and money at stake, Dean should, as you write, have been aware of the situation, she wasn't, so tough .. she will know better next time
Today Dean could have run out a member of the opposition by doing the exact same thing. And so it goes on. Accepting that it will though, there should be a penalty for a bowler who habitually attempts to do so in the way that a fielder can be penalised for pretending to field a ball otherwise the numerous attempts to do so will slow the game down and make the game a farce.
The Laws need to be looked at but as it stands that's just no way to win a game of cricket.
If I were the skipper I would have withdrawn the appeal
the laws have been amended to 'allow' this form of dismissal .. this game was not a friendly played on the old village green, it was a game between two hard professional teams .. I didn't see the game, just a picture in today's paper. It seems that when the bails were removed, Dean was quite a way outside her crease, therefore she was trying to gain an unfair advantage and she didn't get away with it .. in my long ago days as a bowler, non striking batsmen leaving their ground too early used to really piss me off .. IF when batting I went down the wicket and was stumped, I didn't expect the keeper to 'let me off with a warning', I was out .. all this about 'not cricket' is for the birds, try to take an unfair advantage and get found out, tough, you're out .. in football, if you are if front of the last defender when the ball is passed to you, you're offside no ifs or buts .. IF you stray beyond your crease before the bowler bowls, you deserve to be given out
I agree about players who habitually try to gain an advantage but the photo you've seen doesn't tell the whole story. At the time that Deepti plants her front foot it is debatable whether Dean is out of her ground and therefore she wouldn't have been trying at the normal point of delivery trying to "steal" ground. Equally, Deepti is looking at Dean rather than where she is bowling the ball and almost certainly would have had to pull out of her delivery at that point even if Dean had been in. Which is clearly what Saggers, the Umpire, thought she was doing when he had half an attempt at calling "dead ball". Dean should have been aware of the situation but she wasn't watching the bowler which is a fundamental mistake and why it looks like she was trying to nick a couple of yards in the photo you've seen.
A warning should have been issued. It doesn't matter if this was a professional game or not as there is an acceptance by most playing that this isn't in the "Spirit of the Game". We've now had Mankad, Ashwin and Deepti do it and that isn't a coincidence although Tendulkar managed to overturn one of Ashwin's attempt at taking a wicket. If we take this to the nth degree then cricket will become even slower because some players will always be looking to take a wicket in that way.
disagree about a warning and 'the spirit of the game'; ,, as I have written this was not a village green friendly .. you put up a good case for the defence, BUT this was a PROESSIONAL game with prestige and money at stake, Dean should, as you write, have been aware of the situation, she wasn't, so tough .. she will know better next time
Today Dean could have run out a member of the opposition by doing the exact same thing. And so it goes on. Accepting that it will though, there should be a penalty for a bowler who habitually attempts to do so in the way that a fielder can be penalised for pretending to field a ball otherwise the numerous attempts to do so will slow the game down and make the game a farce.
likewise a warning/penalty issued against a 'batter' who persistently leaves their ground prematurely
Isn’t this the bowling equivalent of fielding g deception? Ie running in with no intention to bowl a ball ?
I can see u11 matches taking an age with 6 attempted mankads and 6 legitimate balls an over
This was the point I was making earlier when I said that one bowler had successfully taken two wickets and kept trying to do so. It's in the Laws to do so but not the Spirit and will turn the match into a farce.
With respect to the mankad, I support the suggestion that the law should be changed, so that it doesn't end up in the batter's dismissal, but, instead, it's a five-run penalty against the batting team. However, if the batter is not out of their ground at the time the bails are removed, it's a no-ball.
In this way, it would prevent batters from stealing ground; it would equalise the batting side penalty for deliberate encroashing with the fielding team's penalty for deliberate distraction (Law 41.5); and it would turn what is currently regarded as an unsporting act into a "skill" to be practiced, developed and used - sparingly - as a tactic.
If batters are encroaching, they're cheating. Changing the law in this way would enable the fielding side to prevent it. But making a failed attempt a no-ball would ensure the bowler uses the option carefully and with discretion.
Comments
Very regrettable end to a fascinating match and very bad luck to Dean who deserved the opportunity to make her first half-century.
I, for one, will have no sympathy when India experiences a thoroughly deserved retribution.
Really poor by India imo.
Where it becomes a bit farcical is the situation where a bowler is deliberately looking to run the non striker out each and every ball and continually stops in their delivery stride. I saw a young lad successfully "run out" two batsmen doing so in the same innings but unsuccessfully on numerous other occasions. The game becomes a farce then and the bowler's attempts to take a wicket are worse than a keeper whipping the bails off each and every ball just in case.
usually I think “ well You don’t have to give them a warning not to hit the balls to the slips” and the batsman is usually gaining an advantage, but in this instance the bowler seems to actively try and engineer the situation and trapping her, when Dean didn’t seem to be trying to actually gain advantage
If I were the skipper I would have withdrawn the appeal
Its about what I expect from certain nations.
If someone had said to me that something like this was going to happen.
The two sides that would have sprung to mind would be India and Australia.
I doubt any other country would have done it.
in my long ago days as a bowler, non striking batsmen leaving their ground too early used to really piss me off .. IF when batting I went down the wicket and was stumped, I didn't expect the keeper to 'let me off with a warning', I was out .. all this about 'not cricket' is for the birds, try to take an unfair advantage and get found out, tough, you're out .. in football, if you are if front of the last defender when the ball is passed to you, you're offside no ifs or buts .. IF you stray beyond your crease before the bowler bowls, you deserve to be given out
A warning should have been issued. It doesn't matter if this was a professional game or not as there is an acceptance by most playing that this isn't in the "Spirit of the Game". We've now had Mankad, Ashwin and Deepti do it and that isn't a coincidence although Tendulkar managed to overturn one of Ashwin's attempt at taking a wicket. If we take this to the nth degree then cricket will become even slower because some players will always be looking to take a wicket in that way.
England won the toss and will bowl.
In this way, it would prevent batters from stealing ground; it would equalise the batting side penalty for deliberate encroashing with the fielding team's penalty for deliberate distraction (Law 41.5); and it would turn what is currently regarded as an unsporting act into a "skill" to be practiced, developed and used - sparingly - as a tactic.
If batters are encroaching, they're cheating. Changing the law in this way would enable the fielding side to prevent it. But making a failed attempt a no-ball would ensure the bowler uses the option carefully and with discretion.