what disgusts me other than kicking the moggie is the fact that a bang average Premier defender is earning around 125 Grand a week = £6,500,000 a year .. I will never moan at the salaries paid to megabusiness CEOs again
I agree with Antonio about the scale of the outrage. Horrible thing for Zouma to do (and reveal about himself) and he doesn't deserve to own animals; his fine and donation to animal charities is indeed the least punishment he deserves. But sacking him? Hounding him out of (English) football? I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that, given what we allow. Reminder that Ched Evans is a pro footballer.
Didn’t Evans have his conviction overturned?
I agree with Antonio’s point about racism. He and all the other black/ethnic minority players have for years had to put up with those punished by making racist remarks endure fines and suspensions and are probably sick to the back teeth of it.
To get his point across he conflated the two which is fair enough.
Depending on your point of view you may see hurting an animal, hurting a human (Greenwood) and racism as worse than the other. I think the majority will see as equally reprehensible, but for some reason this instance has got into ‘whataboutery’.
Personally, I still think he should be sacked in the same way Keogh was sacked at Derby. The law was broken. Surely it’s gross misconduct.
Remember the teacher a few months back that got sacked for kicking her horse.
Football is unfortunately a bit warped when it comes to how it interprets punishment for breaking the law. I can’t imagine many employees don’t get the boot for drink driving in the same way those Derby players did and only Keogh got the boot.
The scale of the outrage would have been much much less, if West Ham had dropped him in the immediate aftermath pending investigation. Not an abnormal stance to take at all.
Instead their inaction and moyes’ reasoning made it look like they were going to try to ignore it.
It took the fan backlash and vitality and adidas pulling sponsorship to make them act.
If there is a much bigger scale of outrage (than what?) it is because of this, nothing else.
Evans hired an expensive and vicious legal team and had his conviction overturned on technicalities that everyone following the trial felt were dodgy as fuck. He had clearly behaved in a truly disgusting manner regardless of legality.
If you can't see why Greenwood's behaviour was (almost incalculably) worse than Zouma's, I don't know what to say to you really.
Heavy amends clearly the way forward in this case.
The scale of the outrage would have been much much less, if West Ham had dropped him in the immediate aftermath pending investigation. Not an abnormal stance to take at all.
Instead their inaction and moyes’ reasoning made it look like they were going to try to ignore it.
It took the fan backlash and vitality and adidas pulling sponsorship to make them act.
If there is a much bigger scale of outrage (than what?) it is because of this, nothing else.
Disagree. The internet was already fully mobilised and coming up with creative punishments for Zouma long before West Ham's teamsheet was published.
I agree with Antonio about the scale of the outrage. Horrible thing for Zouma to do (and reveal about himself) and he doesn't deserve to own animals; his fine and donation to animal charities is indeed the least punishment he deserves. But sacking him? Hounding him out of (English) football? I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that, given what we allow. Reminder that Ched Evans is a pro footballer.
Depending on your point of view you may see hurting an animal, hurting a human (Greenwood) and racism as worse than the other. I think the majority will see as equally reprehensible,
The Antonio thing is interesting, but I don't think it's making the point that he wants it to make. Scale is important, and my mind always goes to Marcos Alonso when things like this happen. I saw him jogging up and down the pitch for Chelsea last night and I was again reminded that in 2011 Alonso killed a young woman when she was a passenger in his car, which he crashed into a wall while driving at 70mph in the wet, in a 30mph zone, all with a blood alcohol level of 0.93. The limit in Spain is 0.5, or 0.3 if you've been driving for less than three years. Alonso was 20 at the time so I'm not sure which limit he was subject to, but at best he was at nearly twice the limit. For this he was charged with involuntary manslaughter and received a fine, because Spain's laws are insane. That is atrocious though, and no-one seems to care at all because it happened at a time when outrage wasn't quite the needle-mover it is now and it's apparently too late to start caring. Alonso picks up £100,000 a week being average in London with a Nike sponsorship deal, while Zouma has lost his Adidas deal and is going to getting more and more sanctions dropped on him as the days go on. It must be quite galling for Antonio to see Zouma getting so much grief for behaving the way he did towards a cat and yet see people who racially abuse other players and treat them like they're lower than animals get a fine, a short ban and return to play, I get that. It must be galling for Zouma to see Alonso not getting half the grief (or even the fine, Alonso was fined 61,000 Euros by the courts) he does when there's a young woman who lost her life because Alonso decided he didn't fancy a taxi on his night out. The thing is though, the scale should tip the other way, it's not that we should chill out about the cat stuff, it's that we should start pushing all of these shitty people out of football. I think being a footballer is a privilege, I'm very much in favour of people being able to carry on living thier lives again once they've paid the costs of their crimes, but I don't think there's a right to represent a club and a community in a football shirt and I think clubs should hold themselves to higher standards than they do. Of course they won't, because there's too much money at stake, but if we're going to start worrying about scale let's not talk about pulling back from Zouma, let's start piling more of these people up on there. Hold all footballers to high standards and if they can't meet them then they can forego all the money and privilege that comes with their talent.
Unfortunately, racism is now being discussed in relation to Kurt booting a cat.
I knew that was going to happen.
It is getting dangerous, repetitive and boring.
Where?
Only if people have taken it upon themselves to racially abuse him because of the incident.
Apparently Michail Antonio has asked if the crime of kicking a cat is worse than racism - and whether it’d be ok for Zouma to be banned while racists continue to play.
I think it's deflection to protect his friend and not a very clever point.
Let's stick to just talking about the incident.
Don't have to get into the rabbit hole about racism that will derail the thread.
Agreed. Was just responding to you asking about it though! 😎
The Antonio thing is interesting, but I don't think it's making the point that he wants it to make. Scale is important, and my mind always goes to Marcos Alonso when things like this happen. I saw him jogging up and down the pitch for Chelsea last night and I was again reminded that in 2011 Alonso killed a young woman when she was a passenger in his car, which he crashed into a wall while driving at 70mph in the wet, in a 30mph zone, all with a blood alcohol level of 0.93. The limit in Spain is 0.5, or 0.3 if you've been driving for less than three years. Alonso was 20 at the time so I'm not sure which limit he was subject to, but at best he was at nearly twice the limit. For this he was charged with involuntary manslaughter and received a fine, because Spain's laws are insane. That is atrocious though, and no-one seems to care at all because it happened at a time when outrage wasn't quite the needle-mover it is now and it's apparently too late to start caring. Alonso picks up £100,000 a week being average in London with a Nike sponsorship deal, while Zouma has lost his Adidas deal and is going to getting more and more sanctions dropped on him as the days go on. It must be quite galling for Antonio to see Zouma getting so much grief for behaving the way he did towards a cat and yet see people who racially abuse other players and treat them like they're lower than animals get a fine, a short ban and return to play, I get that. It must be galling for Zouma to see Alonso not getting half the grief (or even the fine, Alonso was fined 61,000 Euros by the courts) he does when there's a young woman who lost her life because Alonso decided he didn't fancy a taxi on his night out. The thing is though, the scale should tip the other way, it's not that we should chill out about the cat stuff, it's that we should start pushing all of these shitty people out of football. I think being a footballer is a privilege, I'm very much in favour of people being able to carry on living thier lives again once they've paid the costs of their crimes, but I don't think there's a right to represent a club and a community in a football shirt and I think clubs should hold themselves to higher standards than they do. Of course they won't, because there's too much money at stake, but if we're going to start worrying about scale let's not talk about pulling back from Zouma, let's start piling more of these people up on there. Hold all footballers to high standards and if they can't meet them then they can forego all the money and privilege that comes with their talent.
Agree with this, ON THE CONDITION THAT players are given a chance or two to make amends for misdemeanours of the Zouma sort. Yellow card, red card.
I agree with Antonio about the scale of the outrage. Horrible thing for Zouma to do (and reveal about himself) and he doesn't deserve to own animals; his fine and donation to animal charities is indeed the least punishment he deserves. But sacking him? Hounding him out of (English) football? I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that, given what we allow. Reminder that Ched Evans is a pro footballer.
Didn’t Evans have his conviction overturned?
I agree with Antonio’s point about racism. He and all the other black/ethnic minority players have for years had to put up with those punished by making racist remarks endure fines and suspensions and are probably sick to the back teeth of it.
To get his point across he conflated the two which is fair enough.
Depending on your point of view you may see hurting an animal, hurting a human (Greenwood) and racism as worse than the other. I think the majority will see as equally reprehensible, but for some reason this instance has got into ‘whataboutery’.
those Derby players did and only Keogh got the boot.
Sorry are we saying that we are now in a society where racist remarks are equal to rape and violence now?
Yes all are abhorrent and reprehensible of course but racist remarks being seen as "equally reprehensible" as rape and physical violence?
John Terry's comment to Ferdinand was unquestionably reprehensible as are the morons who chant or sing racist stuff from the sidelines but it is alarming if what has been alleged against Greenwood is perceived on the same level as that.
All reprehensible, undoubtedly of course.
To bring race into this as some sort of defence or whatabouttery to excuse the scumbag's actions is reprehensible in itself.
(But then again, I'm the sort of rehabilitative-justice sap who thought Luke McCormick was well within his rights to play pro football again after serving his time and showing clear contrition)
I agree with Antonio about the scale of the outrage. Horrible thing for Zouma to do (and reveal about himself) and he doesn't deserve to own animals; his fine and donation to animal charities is indeed the least punishment he deserves. But sacking him? Hounding him out of (English) football? I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that, given what we allow. Reminder that Ched Evans is a pro footballer.
Most people that know anything about football knew he would get a fine and be allowed to carry on playing. Was never going to be sacked.
I bet he would have done if a lot more of their sponsors started pulling out though.
I agree with Antonio about the scale of the outrage. Horrible thing for Zouma to do (and reveal about himself) and he doesn't deserve to own animals; his fine and donation to animal charities is indeed the least punishment he deserves. But sacking him? Hounding him out of (English) football? I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that, given what we allow. Reminder that Ched Evans is a pro footballer.
Most people that know anything about football knew he would get a fine and be allowed to carry on playing. Was never going to be sacked.
Chris Kirkland was on talksport on the day it all came out saying he didn't think Zouma would play in English football ever again!
About 5 hours later he was in their starting lineup.
(But then again, I'm the sort of rehabilitative-justice sap who thought Luke McCormick was well within his rights to play pro football again after serving his time and showing clear contrition)
Honestly, I don't think that is being a sap - or at least, I hope not because I quite agree! Zouma should be subject to a fine and suspension as ever his contract allows (and no doubt some of his sponsors should temporarily step away), but then he should be able to feel remorse and get on with his life and career.
I imagine that this is what is going to happen anyway because he is just too valuable an asset for West Ham to just sack.
I meant most people (probably) find them equally as reprehensible. ie, people abhor racism, violence against animals and hurting another human. I wasn’t trying to suggest they are all equal as crimes. As mentioned, I don’t think what about and conflating racism and animal cruelty helps, merely that I’ve never been on the other end of racism in any way shape or form, nor will I ever be. For those that have suffered from it, I can see why they could see why the reaction to this has perhaps angered them. To the best of my knowledge, I don’t think sponsors were ready to drop John Terry and suspend their sponsorship of Chelsea when he made those remarks to Ferdinand.
I was simply trying to see it from Antonio’s point of view, although not agreeing with him
I wasn't going to look at the video but my husband found it and showed it to me. I am horrified by what I saw, not only was the actual act despicable, but to actually have it videoed and for there to be a row of laughing emojis at the bottom of the video is unbelievable.
Zouma should not be playing for West Ham and must be made an example of. West Ham should have done what Man Utd have done with Mason Greenwood and stopped him training and playing. Violence towards animals is just as bad as violence towards people.
No, it is absolutely not.
I understand why you might state that violence towards animals is not as bad as violence towards people. There are many who might say it’s not the same thing, which is understandable given desired diet, but if Zouma went off on one at home and was filmed kicking his wife, children, dog and cat all in one session surely the viciousness of intent and action would be the same thing? You don’t agree with my perspective sure, but there are many people who would say the violence is the same, maybe even worse if it is towards an animal like it would be if it was violence towards a child. I would suggest that treating an animal the way Zouma has done is indicative of a susceptibility towards domestic violence too. I wonder how many degrees of separation there are between a man like Kurt Zouma and Mason Greenwood.
Correct - we don't agree.
That in no way diminishes my revulsion at what Zouma did, but I place human life above all other life forms - and diet has fuck all to do with it.
I am not suggesting you’re not as appalled as everybody else about what Zouma did. My post was about how different people might view the sanctity of life.
Sanctity of life. ~ Now you're talking. Was thinking this needed a mention in this thread. I wondered, as people winced at the poor cat's treatment (which, goes without saying ~ is appalling) if they would find it as appalling if it were an unborn child being hacked to pieces by an abortionist?
We can be commended as a society for not contributing our taxes in the funding of the kicking of cats. But we show our true barbarism in how we treat the most vulnerable human beings..
Always baffles me this one. A society that thinks nothing of slaughtering the most vulnerable human beings but asks for the head of a bloke who kicks a cat?!
A whiff of hypocrisy wending its way through this thread perhaps...
Jesus christ just ban this guy already.
I'm sure he wouldn't mind as much if Jesus was the one that banned him
I meant most people (probably) find them equally as reprehensible. ie, people abhor racism, violence against animals and hurting another human. I wasn’t trying to suggest they are all equal as crimes. As mentioned, I don’t think what about and conflating racism and animal cruelty helps, merely that I’ve never been on the other end of racism in any way shape or form, nor will I ever be. For those that have suffered from it, I can see why they could see why the reaction to this has perhaps angered them. To the best of my knowledge, I don’t think sponsors were ready to drop John Terry and suspend their sponsorship of Chelsea when he made those remarks to Ferdinand.
I was simply trying to see it from Antonio’s point of view, although not agreeing with him
I meant most people (probably) find them equally as reprehensible. ie, people abhor racism, violence against animals and hurting another human. I wasn’t trying to suggest they are all equal as crimes. As mentioned, I don’t think what about and conflating racism and animal cruelty helps, merely that I’ve never been on the other end of racism in any way shape or form, nor will I ever be. For those that have suffered from it, I can see why they could see why the reaction to this has perhaps angered them. To the best of my knowledge, I don’t think sponsors were ready to drop John Terry and suspend their sponsorship of Chelsea when he made those remarks to Ferdinand.
I was simply trying to see it from Antonio’s point of view, although not agreeing with him
how do you know that?
Fair point. Unlikely to be is probably a better way of phrasing it
Anyway, Zouma should be sacked, this isn’t the place to bring Christianity into a debate and how society has lost its moral compass and Henry Irving should probably have some more promotes removed. End of
I meant most people (probably) find them equally as reprehensible. ie, people abhor racism, violence against animals and hurting another human. I wasn’t trying to suggest they are all equal as crimes. As mentioned, I don’t think what about and conflating racism and animal cruelty helps, merely that I’ve never been on the other end of racism in any way shape or form, nor will I ever be. For those that have suffered from it, I can see why they could see why the reaction to this has perhaps angered them. To the best of my knowledge, I don’t think sponsors were ready to drop John Terry and suspend their sponsorship of Chelsea when he made those remarks to Ferdinand.
I was simply trying to see it from Antonio’s point of view, although not agreeing with him
Id hope no one sees them as equally reprehensible, words v rape is absolutely no comparison, no matter how awful the words are. I say that as someone who is on the receiving end of racism fairly regularly, I also have to stand by whilst my son endured the same.
Antonio is just engaging in whataboutery to try and change the conversation in favour of his mate. It's not exactly a new tactic but it's amazingly effective given how common it is.
I wasn't going to look at the video but my husband found it and showed it to me. I am horrified by what I saw, not only was the actual act despicable, but to actually have it videoed and for there to be a row of laughing emojis at the bottom of the video is unbelievable.
Zouma should not be playing for West Ham and must be made an example of. West Ham should have done what Man Utd have done with Mason Greenwood and stopped him training and playing. Violence towards animals is just as bad as violence towards people.
No, it is absolutely not.
I understand why you might state that violence towards animals is not as bad as violence towards people. There are many who might say it’s not the same thing, which is understandable given desired diet, but if Zouma went off on one at home and was filmed kicking his wife, children, dog and cat all in one session surely the viciousness of intent and action would be the same thing? You don’t agree with my perspective sure, but there are many people who would say the violence is the same, maybe even worse if it is towards an animal like it would be if it was violence towards a child. I would suggest that treating an animal the way Zouma has done is indicative of a susceptibility towards domestic violence too. I wonder how many degrees of separation there are between a man like Kurt Zouma and Mason Greenwood.
Correct - we don't agree.
That in no way diminishes my revulsion at what Zouma did, but I place human life above all other life forms - and diet has fuck all to do with it.
I am not suggesting you’re not as appalled as everybody else about what Zouma did. My post was about how different people might view the sanctity of life.
Sanctity of life. ~ Now you're talking. Was thinking this needed a mention in this thread. I wondered, as people winced at the poor cat's treatment (which, goes without saying ~ is appalling) if they would find it as appalling if it were an unborn child being hacked to pieces by an abortionist?
We can be commended as a society for not contributing our taxes in the funding of the kicking of cats. But we show our true barbarism in how we treat the most vulnerable human beings..
Always baffles me this one. A society that thinks nothing of slaughtering the most vulnerable human beings but asks for the head of a bloke who kicks a cat?!
A whiff of hypocrisy wending its way through this thread perhaps...
Jesus christ just ban this guy already.
I'm sure he wouldn't mind as much if Jesus was the one that banned him
I guess there is also a problem with spending huge amounts of money on footballers and not getting your money for them. West Ham spent what like 30m on Zouma, it's unlikely they'll ever just drop him cos of this. Not to mention managers, a bad run of games and the managers sacked
Comments
I agree with Antonio’s point about racism. He and all the other black/ethnic minority players have for years had to put up with those punished by making racist remarks endure fines and suspensions and are probably sick to the back teeth of it.
To get his point across he conflated the two which is fair enough.
Remember the teacher a few months back that got sacked for kicking her horse.
If you can't see why Greenwood's behaviour was (almost incalculably) worse than Zouma's, I don't know what to say to you really.
Heavy amends clearly the way forward in this case.
Sorry are we saying that we are now in a society where racist remarks are equal to rape and violence now?
Yes all are abhorrent and reprehensible of course but racist remarks being seen as "equally reprehensible" as rape and physical violence?
John Terry's comment to Ferdinand was unquestionably reprehensible as are the morons who chant or sing racist stuff from the sidelines but it is alarming if what has been alleged against Greenwood is perceived on the same level as that.
All reprehensible, undoubtedly of course.
To bring race into this as some sort of defence or whatabouttery to excuse the scumbag's actions is reprehensible in itself.
About 5 hours later he was in their starting lineup.
I was simply trying to see it from Antonio’s point of view, although not agreeing with him
:- )