The reason we are doomed is not that TS is an idiot (he clearly isn't) or malicious (he seems very decent) or that he is running another business in the USA (not impossible) or that he knows little about professional football (he can get decent advice).
In my view, the problem looks like ( I have no inside information) that he is micro-managing the football side together with his son and they are not qualified to do so which is damaging performances and frustrating everyone else at the club.
Why is the owner interviewed after the Fraser signing to tell us how he was target and how has the right attributes etc ? - surely this should be the manager of the first team? Why did we sign big Ronnie Schwartz? Why is the owner commenting on the intensity levels of training at Sparrows Lane? Why is he even at Sparrows Lane on a regular basis? Why did he fall out with Nigel Adkins who was so nice?
I am just hoping the persistence with 3-5-2 is entirely Jackson's personal obsession and he is not being directed from above.
Jackson said himself in a post match interview recently, that he could change formation but he doesn't want to lose all the work they've put in already to the 3-5-2.
Well he would say that wouldn't he, he is not going to say "I wish I could switch to 4-4-2 but the owner and his son wont let me".
He's not going to say that because it's obviously not true.
Yes I agree with you. I don’t believe for a second this formation has come down from the top. You might be able to question the Sandgaard’s credentials on the recruiting front but there is no reason to believe they are actively picking the team / formation.
This is Jackson’s long term plan, based on the research he will have done about what makes EFL football teams successful in 2022. He’s put all his chips down and finding out which players are suited to the way he wants to take this club forward. Some are showing they want it and others haven’t.
Which clubs use 352 successfully in the EFL?
When this came up about 433 (or versions of) I am sure 8 of the last 9 clubs promoted from this divison played 433.
Five of the current top eight are actively using it as their primary formation to my knowledge (Rotherham, MK, Plymouth, Oxford, Sheff Wed).
In MK’s case, it’s a 3-4-3 variation because they have two high pedigree players (Coventry & McEachran) in the middle. Allows an extra forward…
I believe Wycombe and Wigan have also gone through periods of using it earlier in the season. In their last league games, they both played 4-2-3-1. They’ve done a reverse-Oxford who did start out with KR’s 4-2-3-1 but have since switched to 3-5-2.
Sunderland have gone back and forth between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3.
The reason we are doomed is not that TS is an idiot (he clearly isn't) or malicious (he seems very decent) or that he is running another business in the USA (not impossible) or that he knows little about professional football (he can get decent advice).
In my view, the problem looks like ( I have no inside information) that he is micro-managing the football side together with his son and they are not qualified to do so which is damaging performances and frustrating everyone else at the club.
Why is the owner interviewed after the Fraser signing to tell us how he was target and how has the right attributes etc ? - surely this should be the manager of the first team? Why did we sign big Ronnie Schwartz? Why is the owner commenting on the intensity levels of training at Sparrows Lane? Why is he even at Sparrows Lane on a regular basis? Why did he fall out with Nigel Adkins who was so nice?
I am just hoping the persistence with 3-5-2 is entirely Jackson's personal obsession and he is not being directed from above.
Jackson said himself in a post match interview recently, that he could change formation but he doesn't want to lose all the work they've put in already to the 3-5-2.
Well he would say that wouldn't he, he is not going to say "I wish I could switch to 4-4-2 but the owner and his son wont let me".
People said this about Adkins and 4-2-3-1 - even though he did change formation a few times. They said Ged Roddy was forcing him to play it? Then Jacko takes over, says he has own style, that he likes to play with two up front and 3-5-2 is the best way of doing that in the modern game, but because we're shit, it's being forced him? Don't buy it, personally. Just the Hose of Frustration spraying around.
One of the reasons Adkins got the job (that was nothing to do with Roddy) was the way he explained how he want/invisoned us to play.
One of the reasons he lost his job (that was nothing to do with Roddy) is that his opinion what we needed to achieve that was ignored.
Redrobo - you say that TS's son is highly qualified for his job at CAFC - why from what I have read he played for Enfield for a short time, got bored and went to work for TS
When he was appointed it was made clear that he would be responsible for data analysis of players and their performance and during the zoom meeting TS was talking about an analysis program he had put together with his team looking to monitor 12000 players which will also identify players that fit our criteria but have fallen out of favour and therefore the club maybe able to pick up. He has spent 14 years in a successful business and brings those skills with him. I also remember that it was said that he had a good knowledge of European football and had played football at amateur level. Good background for the role I would have thought.
I think that many assumed he was taking over the duties of Ged Roddy, but from what I read I deduced that SG was stepping up his recruitment side and was to be the main negotiator and that both would report directly to TS. Seems a good combination to me.
I am looking forward to see how the new team recruit this summer. Should be exciting.
Sandgaard is a decent guy, is genuinely excited to own the club and his stated ambitions are fine, but that doesn't mean we can't question his stewardship of the club.
After all Mark Hulyer was a genuine fan, and that ended in disaster. Indeed the same happened to Goldberg and Jordan at Palace.
Well that's a difficult one. Was it Sandgaard's idea to sign Chuks, John and Castillo? Or should he have vetoed those who suggested it? Should he make a habit of doing that?
Or are we actually going as far as to suggest that every signing is his fault because he's the owner. I think any other team might be looking elsewhere.
He don’t pick the players that’s down to JJ and SG … TS just signs the cheque and paperwork
JJ never knew anything about John and Castillo until they turned up
Well that's a difficult one. Was it Sandgaard's idea to sign Chuks, John and Castillo? Or should he have vetoed those who suggested it? Should he make a habit of doing that?
Or are we actually going as far as to suggest that every signing is his fault because he's the owner. I think any other team might be looking elsewhere.
He don’t pick the players that’s down to JJ and SG … TS just signs the cheque and paperwork
JJ never knew anything about John and Castillo until they turned up
Well that's a difficult one. Was it Sandgaard's idea to sign Chuks, John and Castillo? Or should he have vetoed those who suggested it? Should he make a habit of doing that?
Or are we actually going as far as to suggest that every signing is his fault because he's the owner. I think any other team might be looking elsewhere.
He don’t pick the players that’s down to JJ and SG … TS just signs the cheque and paperwork
JJ never knew anything about John and Castillo until they turned up
Each to their own. I personally think that like Derby now we wouldn’t have gone under. Obviously it would have been a torrid time for the club … but that wasn’t the question.
As I’ve repeated I’m not a fan of the personality but I genuinely hope he makes a HUGE success of us - I just don’t think he will.
I think you must have told us approaching 100 times. I think everyone must know your views.
I was responding to comment I was tagged in
Because you gave someone's opinion that Sandgaard is a good thing a shitty LOL. You're entitled to express your opinion as much as you want but let's not pretend.
Well that's a difficult one. Was it Sandgaard's idea to sign Chuks, John and Castillo? Or should he have vetoed those who suggested it? Should he make a habit of doing that?
Or are we actually going as far as to suggest that every signing is his fault because he's the owner. I think any other team might be looking elsewhere.
He don’t pick the players that’s down to JJ and SG … TS just signs the cheque and paperwork
JJ never knew anything about John and Castillo until they turned up
The reason we are doomed is not that TS is an idiot (he clearly isn't) or malicious (he seems very decent) or that he is running another business in the USA (not impossible) or that he knows little about professional football (he can get decent advice).
In my view, the problem looks like ( I have no inside information) that he is micro-managing the football side together with his son and they are not qualified to do so which is damaging performances and frustrating everyone else at the club.
Why is the owner interviewed after the Fraser signing to tell us how he was target and how has the right attributes etc ? - surely this should be the manager of the first team? Why did we sign big Ronnie Schwartz? Why is the owner commenting on the intensity levels of training at Sparrows Lane? Why is he even at Sparrows Lane on a regular basis? Why did he fall out with Nigel Adkins who was so nice?
I am just hoping the persistence with 3-5-2 is entirely Jackson's personal obsession and he is not being directed from above.
Jackson said himself in a post match interview recently, that he could change formation but he doesn't want to lose all the work they've put in already to the 3-5-2.
Well he would say that wouldn't he, he is not going to say "I wish I could switch to 4-4-2 but the owner and his son wont let me".
He's not going to say that because it's obviously not true.
I am not saying it is but for a football man like JJ who is no mug to continue with a system that is clearly not working something seems strange.
As for what managers say in interviews, they answer in keeping with their employment so no criticism or negativity is ever reported as they want to keep their jobs.
I can say with some authority that the 352 hasn't been mandated from above.
The reason we are doomed is not that TS is an idiot (he clearly isn't) or malicious (he seems very decent) or that he is running another business in the USA (not impossible) or that he knows little about professional football (he can get decent advice).
In my view, the problem looks like ( I have no inside information) that he is micro-managing the football side together with his son and they are not qualified to do so which is damaging performances and frustrating everyone else at the club.
Why is the owner interviewed after the Fraser signing to tell us how he was target and how has the right attributes etc ? - surely this should be the manager of the first team? Why did we sign big Ronnie Schwartz? Why is the owner commenting on the intensity levels of training at Sparrows Lane? Why is he even at Sparrows Lane on a regular basis? Why did he fall out with Nigel Adkins who was so nice?
I am just hoping the persistence with 3-5-2 is entirely Jackson's personal obsession and he is not being directed from above.
Jackson said himself in a post match interview recently, that he could change formation but he doesn't want to lose all the work they've put in already to the 3-5-2.
Well he would say that wouldn't he, he is not going to say "I wish I could switch to 4-4-2 but the owner and his son wont let me".
He's not going to say that because it's obviously not true.
I am not saying it is but for a football man like JJ who is no mug to continue with a system that is clearly not working something seems strange.
As for what managers say in interviews, they answer in keeping with their employment so no criticism or negativity is ever reported as they want to keep their jobs.
I can say with some authority that the 352 hasn't been mandated from above.
Care to elaborate on your "authority"?
Because I know for a fact there was debate, heated or otherwise, that it wasn't a good idea to spend millions on a squad to play one way then bin it 2 months later.
What I don't know is if has anything to do with why it took longer than it could have done to make Jackson manager.
The reason we are doomed is not that TS is an idiot (he clearly isn't) or malicious (he seems very decent) or that he is running another business in the USA (not impossible) or that he knows little about professional football (he can get decent advice).
In my view, the problem looks like ( I have no inside information) that he is micro-managing the football side together with his son and they are not qualified to do so which is damaging performances and frustrating everyone else at the club.
Why is the owner interviewed after the Fraser signing to tell us how he was target and how has the right attributes etc ? - surely this should be the manager of the first team? Why did we sign big Ronnie Schwartz? Why is the owner commenting on the intensity levels of training at Sparrows Lane? Why is he even at Sparrows Lane on a regular basis? Why did he fall out with Nigel Adkins who was so nice?
I am just hoping the persistence with 3-5-2 is entirely Jackson's personal obsession and he is not being directed from above.
Jackson said himself in a post match interview recently, that he could change formation but he doesn't want to lose all the work they've put in already to the 3-5-2.
Well he would say that wouldn't he, he is not going to say "I wish I could switch to 4-4-2 but the owner and his son wont let me".
He's not going to say that because it's obviously not true.
I am not saying it is but for a football man like JJ who is no mug to continue with a system that is clearly not working something seems strange.
As for what managers say in interviews, they answer in keeping with their employment so no criticism or negativity is ever reported as they want to keep their jobs.
I can say with some authority that the 352 hasn't been mandated from above.
Care to elaborate on your "authority"?
Because I know for a fact there was debate, heated or otherwise, that it wasn't a good idea to spend millions on a squad to play one way then bin it 2 months later.
What I don't know is if has anything to do with why it took longer than it could have done to make Jackson manager.
The reason we are doomed is not that TS is an idiot (he clearly isn't) or malicious (he seems very decent) or that he is running another business in the USA (not impossible) or that he knows little about professional football (he can get decent advice).
In my view, the problem looks like ( I have no inside information) that he is micro-managing the football side together with his son and they are not qualified to do so which is damaging performances and frustrating everyone else at the club.
Why is the owner interviewed after the Fraser signing to tell us how he was target and how has the right attributes etc ? - surely this should be the manager of the first team? Why did we sign big Ronnie Schwartz? Why is the owner commenting on the intensity levels of training at Sparrows Lane? Why is he even at Sparrows Lane on a regular basis? Why did he fall out with Nigel Adkins who was so nice?
I am just hoping the persistence with 3-5-2 is entirely Jackson's personal obsession and he is not being directed from above.
Jackson said himself in a post match interview recently, that he could change formation but he doesn't want to lose all the work they've put in already to the 3-5-2.
Well he would say that wouldn't he, he is not going to say "I wish I could switch to 4-4-2 but the owner and his son wont let me".
He's not going to say that because it's obviously not true.
I am not saying it is but for a football man like JJ who is no mug to continue with a system that is clearly not working something seems strange.
As for what managers say in interviews, they answer in keeping with their employment so no criticism or negativity is ever reported as they want to keep their jobs.
I can say with some authority that the 352 hasn't been mandated from above.
Interesting, thanks.
I did submit this question on the Q&A on the night, but it wasn’t one that got to be read out.
The reason we are doomed is not that TS is an idiot (he clearly isn't) or malicious (he seems very decent) or that he is running another business in the USA (not impossible) or that he knows little about professional football (he can get decent advice).
In my view, the problem looks like ( I have no inside information) that he is micro-managing the football side together with his son and they are not qualified to do so which is damaging performances and frustrating everyone else at the club.
Why is the owner interviewed after the Fraser signing to tell us how he was target and how has the right attributes etc ? - surely this should be the manager of the first team? Why did we sign big Ronnie Schwartz? Why is the owner commenting on the intensity levels of training at Sparrows Lane? Why is he even at Sparrows Lane on a regular basis? Why did he fall out with Nigel Adkins who was so nice?
I am just hoping the persistence with 3-5-2 is entirely Jackson's personal obsession and he is not being directed from above.
Jackson said himself in a post match interview recently, that he could change formation but he doesn't want to lose all the work they've put in already to the 3-5-2.
Well he would say that wouldn't he, he is not going to say "I wish I could switch to 4-4-2 but the owner and his son wont let me".
He's not going to say that because it's obviously not true.
I am not saying it is but for a football man like JJ who is no mug to continue with a system that is clearly not working something seems strange.
As for what managers say in interviews, they answer in keeping with their employment so no criticism or negativity is ever reported as they want to keep their jobs.
I can say with some authority that the 352 hasn't been mandated from above.
Care to elaborate on your "authority"?
Because I know for a fact there was debate, heated or otherwise, that it wasn't a good idea to spend millions on a squad to play one way then bin it 2 months later.
What I don't know is if has anything to do with why it took longer than it could have done to make Jackson manager.
I think the Elephant in the room, that some are ignoring on here, is that if TS hadn’t come in and saved Charlton Athletic FC, we would not have a club to support anymore, and indeed there would be no Charlton Life forum either (what would be the point) - so I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, and let him push on and do what he thinks best
Yes, this season has been very disappointing
Yes, he has made mistakes, and will make more - as all owners will make (appointment of Dowie anybody !!!)
Yes, some of his statements are incorrect in terms of historical events / actions (and let’s face it, we are a group of supporters who have been through so many ups and downs, we probably are too knowledgable !!)
Yes, recruitment for this season was scattergun and poor - he admits that, and wants to correct that this summer
BUT I for one am just pleased that I am still able to get on the train at Dartford for a home game, a few beers in The Oak, walk to The Valley, and watch my team play (and indeed for many away games as well)
At least he speaks to us, and is a damn sight more impressive than that w*nker Southall
Give the bloke a fucking chance - he bought a professional football club in a country that (as far as I am aware) he has never lived in, that was on the verge of going bust in the middle of a global pandemic
Because I’m bored of the ‘he saved the club’ line. Would we have gone into admin? Almost certainly, would we have been bought? Almost certainly.
This get mentioned a lot and gets accepted as a form of ‘expectation fact’. But I have serious reservations.
Obviously none of us can say for definite one way or another, but I genuinely believe that there are literally layers of complexity in our ownership stemming back to the pre-Jiminez era, that got accentuated during the Jiminez / Slater / Cash Cayman Island period that Roland didn’t do proper due diligence on, that then got accentuated further by the asset split under RD, and then finally twisted even further by the Southall / Nimer / Farnell / Elliotttt (unknown number of T’s) / Dentist nonsense.
The court case after court case, ownership unknowns, embargo’s and timeframe was very quickly going to make us completely unviable for the season ahead. I think we were simply becoming seasoned in off field drama so probably didn’t truly take in the seriousness of it all.
But it was a huge collision course that would NOT have ended in admin imo largely due to ESIs pack of cards folding, all roads leading back to Roland, and his complete lack of desperation to offload. I’m convinced the most likely outcome would have seen us ending without a club operating in the football league that season a la Bury.
I am almost certain that would have been the outcome had it not been for Sandgaard. I think it’s largely due to the stubborn, belligerent character aspects in him (that we are all currently frustrated with) that he saw a fight and got sucked into it. Once he was interested his ego ensured he had to see it through and come out the victor.
That’s just my take, everyone is entitled to their own and I appreciate Sandgaard is more than fair game for criticism at the moment. But I don’t think due to what I set out I’ll ever buy the ‘we would have gone into admin and come out fine’ line and I’m very confident in thinking he genuinely did save our club.
Whether it was for the long term or not, we’ll have to see further down the line.
Sorry, but that is just nonsense. We know the recent issues. They have now been explored in multiple court cases, other people have done due diligence and the club has changed hands at least three times since Jimenez and Slater bought it, when the position was very clear.
Even the small amount of debt on the books in 2010 was offset by the value of the property. There was a clean sheet in 2011 (December 31st, 2010 in practice).
The club was certainly in a serious position in 2020 and I agree that Sandgaard's willingness to come in and confront the situation was critical. I believe the club would have been bought out in administration in 2011 (when as above there was no significant debt), in 2014 and in 2020, even without the assets, but that is a matter for conjecture. We may have ended up playing elsewhere temporarily in 20/21 (when fans could mostly not attend anyway).
Sandgaard's personal qualities were a strength then, but they are a weakness now. He does not listen and he micromanages the staff from the US, despite knowing less than them. His claims that he can fill the ground multiple times over for even unattractive opposition, even in L1, is complete fantasy. He is now indulging in nonsense claims about previous ownerships when he would be better off considering why he is unable to overcome the same issues that drove the 2011-2014 losses in the first place and which continued under Duchatelet. Yes to a "can-do" mentality - no to fantastic promises about revenue based on hot air.
John Fryer saved the club in 1984, like it or not. That was the time it was most likely to disappear, because "administration" was not yet part of the UK insolvency process. An argument can be made that the former directors, Jimenez/Slater and Duchatelet also saved the club, based on its ability to continue to trade.
The board from 1992-2010 are responsible for the stadium and the support we - and Sandgaard - have now. Just look at the position we were in even after returning to The Valley. The 1998 promotion changed everything. I have my differences with Richard Murray, in particular over his support for Duchatelet, but without that old board and all the work that was done under them the club would have been gone a long while ago. If Thomas doesn't acknowledge or understand that he should shut up about the past.
The reason we are doomed is not that TS is an idiot (he clearly isn't) or malicious (he seems very decent) or that he is running another business in the USA (not impossible) or that he knows little about professional football (he can get decent advice).
In my view, the problem looks like ( I have no inside information) that he is micro-managing the football side together with his son and they are not qualified to do so which is damaging performances and frustrating everyone else at the club.
Why is the owner interviewed after the Fraser signing to tell us how he was target and how has the right attributes etc ? - surely this should be the manager of the first team? Why did we sign big Ronnie Schwartz? Why is the owner commenting on the intensity levels of training at Sparrows Lane? Why is he even at Sparrows Lane on a regular basis? Why did he fall out with Nigel Adkins who was so nice?
I am just hoping the persistence with 3-5-2 is entirely Jackson's personal obsession and he is not being directed from above.
Jackson said himself in a post match interview recently, that he could change formation but he doesn't want to lose all the work they've put in already to the 3-5-2.
Well he would say that wouldn't he, he is not going to say "I wish I could switch to 4-4-2 but the owner and his son wont let me".
He's not going to say that because it's obviously not true.
I am not saying it is but for a football man like JJ who is no mug to continue with a system that is clearly not working something seems strange.
As for what managers say in interviews, they answer in keeping with their employment so no criticism or negativity is ever reported as they want to keep their jobs.
I can say with some authority that the 352 hasn't been mandated from above.
Care to elaborate on your "authority"?
Because I know for a fact there was debate, heated or otherwise, that it wasn't a good idea to spend millions on a squad to play one way then bin it 2 months later.
What I don't know is if has anything to do with why it took longer than it could have done to make Jackson manager.
Between whom was this debate?
Stab in the dark, JJ and TS?
That would make it a conversation. The use of the word debate suggests it was a wider discussion.
The reason we are doomed is not that TS is an idiot (he clearly isn't) or malicious (he seems very decent) or that he is running another business in the USA (not impossible) or that he knows little about professional football (he can get decent advice).
In my view, the problem looks like ( I have no inside information) that he is micro-managing the football side together with his son and they are not qualified to do so which is damaging performances and frustrating everyone else at the club.
Why is the owner interviewed after the Fraser signing to tell us how he was target and how has the right attributes etc ? - surely this should be the manager of the first team? Why did we sign big Ronnie Schwartz? Why is the owner commenting on the intensity levels of training at Sparrows Lane? Why is he even at Sparrows Lane on a regular basis? Why did he fall out with Nigel Adkins who was so nice?
I am just hoping the persistence with 3-5-2 is entirely Jackson's personal obsession and he is not being directed from above.
Jackson said himself in a post match interview recently, that he could change formation but he doesn't want to lose all the work they've put in already to the 3-5-2.
Well he would say that wouldn't he, he is not going to say "I wish I could switch to 4-4-2 but the owner and his son wont let me".
He's not going to say that because it's obviously not true.
I am not saying it is but for a football man like JJ who is no mug to continue with a system that is clearly not working something seems strange.
As for what managers say in interviews, they answer in keeping with their employment so no criticism or negativity is ever reported as they want to keep their jobs.
I can say with some authority that the 352 hasn't been mandated from above.
Care to elaborate on your "authority"?
Because I know for a fact there was debate, heated or otherwise, that it wasn't a good idea to spend millions on a squad to play one way then bin it 2 months later.
What I don't know is if has anything to do with why it took longer than it could have done to make Jackson manager.
Between whom was this debate?
Stab in the dark, JJ and TS?
Ged Roddy left the building soon after JJ got the job so I think that's the clue. There were rumours of him not being onboard with it, I think TS even mentioned "internal resistance" at some point. To be fair to Ged, it's not like he was wrong, it is pretty bonkers to be spending money on building a squad for 4231 then completely changing it a few months later.
The reason we are doomed is not that TS is an idiot (he clearly isn't) or malicious (he seems very decent) or that he is running another business in the USA (not impossible) or that he knows little about professional football (he can get decent advice).
In my view, the problem looks like ( I have no inside information) that he is micro-managing the football side together with his son and they are not qualified to do so which is damaging performances and frustrating everyone else at the club.
Why is the owner interviewed after the Fraser signing to tell us how he was target and how has the right attributes etc ? - surely this should be the manager of the first team? Why did we sign big Ronnie Schwartz? Why is the owner commenting on the intensity levels of training at Sparrows Lane? Why is he even at Sparrows Lane on a regular basis? Why did he fall out with Nigel Adkins who was so nice?
I am just hoping the persistence with 3-5-2 is entirely Jackson's personal obsession and he is not being directed from above.
Jackson said himself in a post match interview recently, that he could change formation but he doesn't want to lose all the work they've put in already to the 3-5-2.
Well he would say that wouldn't he, he is not going to say "I wish I could switch to 4-4-2 but the owner and his son wont let me".
He's not going to say that because it's obviously not true.
I am not saying it is but for a football man like JJ who is no mug to continue with a system that is clearly not working something seems strange.
As for what managers say in interviews, they answer in keeping with their employment so no criticism or negativity is ever reported as they want to keep their jobs.
I can say with some authority that the 352 hasn't been mandated from above.
Care to elaborate on your "authority"?
Because I know for a fact there was debate, heated or otherwise, that it wasn't a good idea to spend millions on a squad to play one way then bin it 2 months later.
What I don't know is if has anything to do with why it took longer than it could have done to make Jackson manager.
Between whom was this debate?
Stab in the dark, JJ and TS?
Ged Roddy left the building soon after JJ got the job so I think that's the clue. There were rumours of him not being onboard with it, I think TS even mentioned "internal resistance" at some point. To be fair to Ged, it's not like he was wrong, it is pretty bonkers to be spending money on building a squad for 4231 then completely changing it a few months later.
True.
But isn’t that great news?
That would confirm that JJ wanted the 3-5-2 formation and was given time to go out and prove it worked. His appointment would suggest that it is now agreed that the squad will be built this way going forward and I would hope we would go the Southampton route and get all our teams playing that way, and if there is a manager change, a new manager will be recruited that plays this way.
Not surprising that it was lively as this will be expensive and some of our youth players will have to follow the players in the first team squad - adjust or go.
It would also confirm that TS has listened to the football people at the Club and agreed to back them.
The reason we are doomed is not that TS is an idiot (he clearly isn't) or malicious (he seems very decent) or that he is running another business in the USA (not impossible) or that he knows little about professional football (he can get decent advice).
In my view, the problem looks like ( I have no inside information) that he is micro-managing the football side together with his son and they are not qualified to do so which is damaging performances and frustrating everyone else at the club.
Why is the owner interviewed after the Fraser signing to tell us how he was target and how has the right attributes etc ? - surely this should be the manager of the first team? Why did we sign big Ronnie Schwartz? Why is the owner commenting on the intensity levels of training at Sparrows Lane? Why is he even at Sparrows Lane on a regular basis? Why did he fall out with Nigel Adkins who was so nice?
I am just hoping the persistence with 3-5-2 is entirely Jackson's personal obsession and he is not being directed from above.
Jackson said himself in a post match interview recently, that he could change formation but he doesn't want to lose all the work they've put in already to the 3-5-2.
Well he would say that wouldn't he, he is not going to say "I wish I could switch to 4-4-2 but the owner and his son wont let me".
He's not going to say that because it's obviously not true.
I am not saying it is but for a football man like JJ who is no mug to continue with a system that is clearly not working something seems strange.
As for what managers say in interviews, they answer in keeping with their employment so no criticism or negativity is ever reported as they want to keep their jobs.
I can say with some authority that the 352 hasn't been mandated from above.
Care to elaborate on your "authority"?
Because I know for a fact there was debate, heated or otherwise, that it wasn't a good idea to spend millions on a squad to play one way then bin it 2 months later.
What I don't know is if has anything to do with why it took longer than it could have done to make Jackson manager.
Between whom was this debate?
Stab in the dark, JJ and TS?
Ged Roddy left the building soon after JJ got the job so I think that's the clue. There were rumours of him not being onboard with it, I think TS even mentioned "internal resistance" at some point. To be fair to Ged, it's not like he was wrong, it is pretty bonkers to be spending money on building a squad for 4231 then completely changing it a few months later.
True.
But isn’t that great news?
That would confirm that JJ wanted the 3-5-2 formation and was given time to go out and prove it worked. His appointment would suggest that it is now agreed that the squad will be built this way going forward and I would hope we would go the Southampton route and get all our teams playing that way, and if there is a manager change, a new manager will be recruited that plays this way.
Not surprising that it was lively as this will be expensive and some of our youth players will have to follow the players in the first team squad - adjust or go.
It would also confirm that TS has listened to the football people at the Club and agreed to back them.
But they had that strategy in place last April.....
It was in the bin by October. Despite the u23s changing the way they player, a multi million pound recruitment drive and a root and branch review of the coaching set up.
If he changed it because of advice from the "football people" who's idea was it in the first place?
I think he only changed it because he would've had an almighty revolt on his hands if he didn't confirm Jacko during that run. It was pretty much forced on him.
The reason we are doomed is not that TS is an idiot (he clearly isn't) or malicious (he seems very decent) or that he is running another business in the USA (not impossible) or that he knows little about professional football (he can get decent advice).
In my view, the problem looks like ( I have no inside information) that he is micro-managing the football side together with his son and they are not qualified to do so which is damaging performances and frustrating everyone else at the club.
Why is the owner interviewed after the Fraser signing to tell us how he was target and how has the right attributes etc ? - surely this should be the manager of the first team? Why did we sign big Ronnie Schwartz? Why is the owner commenting on the intensity levels of training at Sparrows Lane? Why is he even at Sparrows Lane on a regular basis? Why did he fall out with Nigel Adkins who was so nice?
I am just hoping the persistence with 3-5-2 is entirely Jackson's personal obsession and he is not being directed from above.
Jackson said himself in a post match interview recently, that he could change formation but he doesn't want to lose all the work they've put in already to the 3-5-2.
Well he would say that wouldn't he, he is not going to say "I wish I could switch to 4-4-2 but the owner and his son wont let me".
He's not going to say that because it's obviously not true.
I am not saying it is but for a football man like JJ who is no mug to continue with a system that is clearly not working something seems strange.
As for what managers say in interviews, they answer in keeping with their employment so no criticism or negativity is ever reported as they want to keep their jobs.
I can say with some authority that the 352 hasn't been mandated from above.
Care to elaborate on your "authority"?
Because I know for a fact there was debate, heated or otherwise, that it wasn't a good idea to spend millions on a squad to play one way then bin it 2 months later.
What I don't know is if has anything to do with why it took longer than it could have done to make Jackson manager.
Between whom was this debate?
Stab in the dark, JJ and TS?
Ged Roddy left the building soon after JJ got the job so I think that's the clue. There were rumours of him not being onboard with it, I think TS even mentioned "internal resistance" at some point. To be fair to Ged, it's not like he was wrong, it is pretty bonkers to be spending money on building a squad for 4231 then completely changing it a few months later.
True.
But isn’t that great news?
That would confirm that JJ wanted the 3-5-2 formation and was given time to go out and prove it worked. His appointment would suggest that it is now agreed that the squad will be built this way going forward and I would hope we would go the Southampton route and get all our teams playing that way, and if there is a manager change, a new manager will be recruited that plays this way.
Not surprising that it was lively as this will be expensive and some of our youth players will have to follow the players in the first team squad - adjust or go.
It would also confirm that TS has listened to the football people at the Club and agreed to back them.
But they had that strategy in place last April.....
It was in the bin by October. Despite the u23s changing the way they player, a multi million pound recruitment drive and a root and branch review of the coaching set up.
If he changed it because of advice from the "football people" who's idea was it in the first place?
You didn’t answer who took part in the debate.
I would have hoped that you had the answer as to who the football people were.
The reason we are doomed is not that TS is an idiot (he clearly isn't) or malicious (he seems very decent) or that he is running another business in the USA (not impossible) or that he knows little about professional football (he can get decent advice).
In my view, the problem looks like ( I have no inside information) that he is micro-managing the football side together with his son and they are not qualified to do so which is damaging performances and frustrating everyone else at the club.
Why is the owner interviewed after the Fraser signing to tell us how he was target and how has the right attributes etc ? - surely this should be the manager of the first team? Why did we sign big Ronnie Schwartz? Why is the owner commenting on the intensity levels of training at Sparrows Lane? Why is he even at Sparrows Lane on a regular basis? Why did he fall out with Nigel Adkins who was so nice?
I am just hoping the persistence with 3-5-2 is entirely Jackson's personal obsession and he is not being directed from above.
Jackson said himself in a post match interview recently, that he could change formation but he doesn't want to lose all the work they've put in already to the 3-5-2.
Well he would say that wouldn't he, he is not going to say "I wish I could switch to 4-4-2 but the owner and his son wont let me".
He's not going to say that because it's obviously not true.
I am not saying it is but for a football man like JJ who is no mug to continue with a system that is clearly not working something seems strange.
As for what managers say in interviews, they answer in keeping with their employment so no criticism or negativity is ever reported as they want to keep their jobs.
I can say with some authority that the 352 hasn't been mandated from above.
Care to elaborate on your "authority"?
Because I know for a fact there was debate, heated or otherwise, that it wasn't a good idea to spend millions on a squad to play one way then bin it 2 months later.
What I don't know is if has anything to do with why it took longer than it could have done to make Jackson manager.
Between whom was this debate?
Stab in the dark, JJ and TS?
Ged Roddy left the building soon after JJ got the job so I think that's the clue. There were rumours of him not being onboard with it, I think TS even mentioned "internal resistance" at some point. To be fair to Ged, it's not like he was wrong, it is pretty bonkers to be spending money on building a squad for 4231 then completely changing it a few months later.
True.
But isn’t that great news?
That would confirm that JJ wanted the 3-5-2 formation and was given time to go out and prove it worked. His appointment would suggest that it is now agreed that the squad will be built this way going forward and I would hope we would go the Southampton route and get all our teams playing that way, and if there is a manager change, a new manager will be recruited that plays this way.
Not surprising that it was lively as this will be expensive and some of our youth players will have to follow the players in the first team squad - adjust or go.
It would also confirm that TS has listened to the football people at the Club and agreed to back them.
But they had that strategy in place last April.....
It was in the bin by October. Despite the u23s changing the way they player, a multi million pound recruitment drive and a root and branch review of the coaching set up.
If he changed it because of advice from the "football people" who's idea was it in the first place?
You didn’t answer who took part in the debate.
I would have hoped that you had the answer as to who the football people were.
I think it's a bit irrelevant really because Jackson and Gallen (the only "football people" left) must have been involved in the discussions last time. Even if it was Jackson agreeing by being Adkins number 2.
I assume playing style was part of Roddy's coaching review.
So either someone nodded through something they didn't actually agree with or changed their mind.
Tbh if it was my money I would be pretty pissed off about it.
I would assume that Adkins and Roddy put the formation together and it was based on that we recruited last summer. We know Adkins was unhappy with the process and the length of time it took to sign players and I don’t blame him. We also know that TS was unhappy with advice he was given by Roddy and got rid. A bit of a cock up all round.
The debate that you have heard about would have included SG and JJ. Maybe MS. Maybe JE. Maybe SA representing the youth teams. I am pleased to hear they had one and everyone felt able to express their views strongly. Hats off to the owner for agreeing to change direction and back JJ going forward. Nice to know that the ‘football’ people like JJ got what they wanted.
I find it very encouraging that decisions are being made this way.
I would assume that Adkins and Roddy put the formation together and it was based on that we recruited last summer. We know Adkins was unhappy with the process and the length of time it took to sign players and I don’t blame him. We also know that TS was unhappy with advice he was given by Roddy and got rid. A bit of a cock up all round.
The debate that you have heard about would have included SG and JJ. Maybe MS. Maybe JE. Maybe SA representing the youth teams. I am pleased to hear they had one and everyone felt able to express their views strongly. Hats off to the owner for agreeing to change direction and back JJ going forward. Nice to know that the ‘football’ people like JJ got what they wanted.
I find it very encouraging that decisions are being made this way.
But your avoiding the aspect of did JJ, JE, SG, SA, etc etc agree with the original plan, if so have they changed their mind, or did they nod it through and give it half hearted support? Would you be so encouraged if that had cost you personally the best part of 10 million quid?
Roddy and Adkins didn't put a formation together in some clandestine plot, it's the most common used formation in the 92.
The idea of a style of play through the club is perfectly valid as you enthused about yourself. Changing it after 3 months isn't. They, from Thomas down, either believed in it or didn't. If they didn't it's not surprising it failed, is it?
Truly depressing thread ! but let's face it being a Charlton supporter is one helluva ride & never boring !
....For me 7 promotions, 7 relegations, multiple owners, 3 grounds, 3 Wembley finals. Would i swap it for any other team no chance. Being an Addick has helped me learn how to take the rough with the smooth both in my personal and professional life. Sandguard is just another owner, he'll be gone in a year or two, who comes next? which owner, manager, players, formation, ownership of Valley + Sparrow Lane.... god knows, No one said supporting Charlton was going to be easy!
I would assume that Adkins and Roddy put the formation together and it was based on that we recruited last summer. We know Adkins was unhappy with the process and the length of time it took to sign players and I don’t blame him. We also know that TS was unhappy with advice he was given by Roddy and got rid. A bit of a cock up all round.
The debate that you have heard about would have included SG and JJ. Maybe MS. Maybe JE. Maybe SA representing the youth teams. I am pleased to hear they had one and everyone felt able to express their views strongly. Hats off to the owner for agreeing to change direction and back JJ going forward. Nice to know that the ‘football’ people like JJ got what they wanted.
I find it very encouraging that decisions are being made this way.
But your avoiding the aspect of did JJ, JE, SG, SA, etc etc agree with the original plan, if so have they changed their mind, or did they nod it through and give it half hearted support? Would you be so encouraged if that had cost you personally the best part of 10 million quid?
Roddy and Adkins didn't put a formation together in some clandestine plot, it's the most common used formation in the 92.
The idea of a style of play through the club is perfectly valid as you enthused about yourself. Changing it after 3 months isn't. They, from Thomas down, either believed in it or didn't. If they didn't it's not surprising it failed, is it?
Blimey, you are making up a whole load of assumptions and are wildly speculating on your information of a heated debate that took place between JJ’s temp and permanent appointment. Who’s to say that any debate ever happened before.
Surely the point is that it has now been debated and a strategy agreed going forward and that all appear to be on the same page. I can’t see any advantage of raking over the past, it is gone.
I would assume that Adkins and Roddy put the formation together and it was based on that we recruited last summer. We know Adkins was unhappy with the process and the length of time it took to sign players and I don’t blame him. We also know that TS was unhappy with advice he was given by Roddy and got rid. A bit of a cock up all round.
The debate that you have heard about would have included SG and JJ. Maybe MS. Maybe JE. Maybe SA representing the youth teams. I am pleased to hear they had one and everyone felt able to express their views strongly. Hats off to the owner for agreeing to change direction and back JJ going forward. Nice to know that the ‘football’ people like JJ got what they wanted.
I find it very encouraging that decisions are being made this way.
But your avoiding the aspect of did JJ, JE, SG, SA, etc etc agree with the original plan, if so have they changed their mind, or did they nod it through and give it half hearted support? Would you be so encouraged if that had cost you personally the best part of 10 million quid?
Roddy and Adkins didn't put a formation together in some clandestine plot, it's the most common used formation in the 92.
The idea of a style of play through the club is perfectly valid as you enthused about yourself. Changing it after 3 months isn't. They, from Thomas down, either believed in it or didn't. If they didn't it's not surprising it failed, is it?
Blimey, you are making up a whole load of assumptions and are wildly speculating on your information of a heated debate that took place between JJ’s temp and permanent appointment. Who’s to say that any debate ever happened before.
Surely the point is that it has now been debated and a strategy agreed going forward and that all appear to be on the same page. I can’t see any advantage of raking over the past, it is gone.
So we are in no different position, off the field, to the one we were in 10 months ago and its cost about 10 million quid and you don't think it's relevant?
I think your faith, be it blind or other wise, that Roddy and Akin's being removed will completely change the out come, because he honest that's all it is, is highly optimistic.
I would assume that Adkins and Roddy put the formation together and it was based on that we recruited last summer. We know Adkins was unhappy with the process and the length of time it took to sign players and I don’t blame him. We also know that TS was unhappy with advice he was given by Roddy and got rid. A bit of a cock up all round.
The debate that you have heard about would have included SG and JJ. Maybe MS. Maybe JE. Maybe SA representing the youth teams. I am pleased to hear they had one and everyone felt able to express their views strongly. Hats off to the owner for agreeing to change direction and back JJ going forward. Nice to know that the ‘football’ people like JJ got what they wanted.
I find it very encouraging that decisions are being made this way.
But your avoiding the aspect of did JJ, JE, SG, SA, etc etc agree with the original plan, if so have they changed their mind, or did they nod it through and give it half hearted support? Would you be so encouraged if that had cost you personally the best part of 10 million quid?
Roddy and Adkins didn't put a formation together in some clandestine plot, it's the most common used formation in the 92.
The idea of a style of play through the club is perfectly valid as you enthused about yourself. Changing it after 3 months isn't. They, from Thomas down, either believed in it or didn't. If they didn't it's not surprising it failed, is it?
Blimey, you are making up a whole load of assumptions and are wildly speculating on your information of a heated debate that took place between JJ’s temp and permanent appointment. Who’s to say that any debate ever happened before.
Surely the point is that it has now been debated and a strategy agreed going forward and that all appear to be on the same page. I can’t see any advantage of raking over the past, it is gone.
So we are in no different position, off the field, to the one we were in 10 months ago and its cost about 10 million quid and you don't think it's relevant?
I think your faith, be it blind or other wise, that Roddy and Akin's being removed will completely change the out come, because he honest that's all it is, is highly optimistic.
I hope to christ your right......
I haven’t a f**c**g clue what was happening internally 10 months ago, I have no idea what we spent 10 million quid on. If there was an agreed plan I knew nothing about it and have not seen anything about that plan on here. Was there even a debate back then?
But you are wrong. We are different off the field. We have a new manager and a different recruitment team using fresh analysis systems.
YOU were the one talking about a big debate that happened before JJ was appointed. Why did you raise it if it makes no difference to anything? Be honest, have you any evidence as to if there was actually a debate? If it did happen do you have any idea what was said, who attended, and what happened as a result of it? If it did take place, isn’t a good thing? If there was plan when Atkins took over and TS spent money on it, then yes, he has a right to have been frustrated.
But does that not make his willingness to change direction even more laudable?
But please elaborate :- Why do you think this debate was important enough to raise on here? Why do you think Adkins and Roddy leaving will make no difference? Why would this change of direction result in exactly the same outcome?
Comments
I believe Wycombe and Wigan have also gone through periods of using it earlier in the season. In their last league games, they both played 4-2-3-1. They’ve done a reverse-Oxford who did start out with KR’s 4-2-3-1 but have since switched to 3-5-2.
Sunderland have gone back and forth between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3.
One of the reasons he lost his job (that was nothing to do with Roddy) is that his opinion what we needed to achieve that was ignored.
I also remember that it was said that he had a good knowledge of European football and had played football at amateur level. Good background for the role I would have thought.
I think that many assumed he was taking over the duties of Ged Roddy, but from what I read I deduced that SG was stepping up his recruitment side and was to be the main negotiator and that both would report directly to TS. Seems a good combination to me.
I am looking forward to see how the new team recruit this summer. Should be exciting.
After all Mark Hulyer was a genuine fan, and that ended in disaster. Indeed the same happened to Goldberg and Jordan at Palace.
What I don't know is if has anything to do with why it took longer than it could have done to make Jackson manager.
I did submit this question on the Q&A on the night, but it wasn’t one that got to be read out.
Even the small amount of debt on the books in 2010 was offset by the value of the property. There was a clean sheet in 2011 (December 31st, 2010 in practice).
The club was certainly in a serious position in 2020 and I agree that Sandgaard's willingness to come in and confront the situation was critical. I believe the club would have been bought out in administration in 2011 (when as above there was no significant debt), in 2014 and in 2020, even without the assets, but that is a matter for conjecture. We may have ended up playing elsewhere temporarily in 20/21 (when fans could mostly not attend anyway).
Sandgaard's personal qualities were a strength then, but they are a weakness now. He does not listen and he micromanages the staff from the US, despite knowing less than them. His claims that he can fill the ground multiple times over for even unattractive opposition, even in L1, is complete fantasy. He is now indulging in nonsense claims about previous ownerships when he would be better off considering why he is unable to overcome the same issues that drove the 2011-2014 losses in the first place and which continued under Duchatelet. Yes to a "can-do" mentality - no to fantastic promises about revenue based on hot air.
John Fryer saved the club in 1984, like it or not. That was the time it was most likely to disappear, because "administration" was not yet part of the UK insolvency process. An argument can be made that the former directors, Jimenez/Slater and Duchatelet also saved the club, based on its ability to continue to trade.
The board from 1992-2010 are responsible for the stadium and the support we - and Sandgaard - have now. Just look at the position we were in even after returning to The Valley. The 1998 promotion changed everything. I have my differences with Richard Murray, in particular over his support for Duchatelet, but without that old board and all the work that was done under them the club would have been gone a long while ago. If Thomas doesn't acknowledge or understand that he should shut up about the past.
It was in the bin by October. Despite the u23s changing the way they player, a multi million pound recruitment drive and a root and branch review of the coaching set up.
If he changed it because of advice from the "football people" who's idea was it in the first place?
I assume playing style was part of Roddy's coaching review.
So either someone nodded through something they didn't actually agree with or changed their mind.
Tbh if it was my money I would be pretty pissed off about it.
The debate that you have heard about would have included SG and JJ. Maybe MS. Maybe JE. Maybe SA representing the youth teams.
I am pleased to hear they had one and everyone felt able to express their views strongly. Hats off to the owner for agreeing to change direction and back JJ going forward. Nice to know that the ‘football’ people like JJ got what they wanted.
I find it very encouraging that decisions are being made this way.
Roddy and Adkins didn't put a formation together in some clandestine plot, it's the most common used formation in the 92.
The idea of a style of play through the club is perfectly valid as you enthused about yourself. Changing it after 3 months isn't. They, from Thomas down, either believed in it or didn't. If they didn't it's not surprising it failed, is it?
Surely the point is that it has now been debated and a strategy agreed going forward and that all appear to be on the same page. I can’t see any advantage of raking over the past, it is gone.
I think your faith, be it blind or other wise, that Roddy and Akin's being removed will completely change the out come, because he honest that's all it is, is highly optimistic.
I hope to christ your right......
Be honest, have you any evidence as to if there was actually a debate? If it did happen do you have any idea what was said, who attended, and what happened as a result of it?
If it did take place, isn’t a good thing?
If there was plan when Atkins took over and TS spent money on it, then yes, he has a right to have been frustrated.
But please elaborate :-
Why do you think this debate was important enough to raise on here?
Why do you think Adkins and Roddy leaving will make no difference?
Why would this change of direction result in exactly the same outcome?