Sorry but Jackson has to go.

Garrymanilow

Callumcafc said:

Garrymanilow said:

Callumcafc said:

Cafc43v3r said:

Garrymanilow said:

Cafc43v3r said:

For all the criticism of the formation, some of it is valid BTW, what is the alternative?

For multiple reasons a back 4 is out of the question, is it. 

We'll have to see what happens but I wouldn't be majorly shocked if Jackson recalled the way we played under Powell. Powell also insisted on two strikers and wasn't against a back 3 but when we played with 4 at the back he was very careful to make sure the more expansive winger was on the side with the defensive full back and the midfielder in front of the attacking full back could come in and cover narrow where needed. The fact that midfielder was Jackson you'd assume would give him insight into how that balance was intended to work. We honestly didn't have the most creative central two to cater to our way of playing, Stephens dropped deeper and deeper as the season went on and Hollands mostly snapped at players trying to go through the middle and drove the ball up when he could. We were capable of going over the top to BWP, using Green to cross out wide or Wiggins to get to the byeline, or just hammering it at Yann and watching him tenpin anyone who trid to win a header off him. The problem we'll likely have is being able to get the right kind of player in to suit it. We were very lucky that Jackson and Solly were already in place, so we only had to target a maruading LB and a didn't have to fixate too much on the defensive qualities of the right winger. We would have to rebuild a lot of things to play that way next season. I know 442 is the default for a lot of people but it was a very specific set of players that made it work effectively for us in11/12. I don't think we would have done half as well if we'd spent the season with Evina and Francis as the full backs, or a proper winger on the left

This formation is only really slightly different if you look at where the players actually play as opposed to putting labels on them.  You could well imagine that team being set up the same as are now.  All beat it the left and right are the other way round. 

Exactly right. Formations aren't 'real', they are only a shorthand way to try to explain how a team is expected to play.




The 11/12 team could quite easily have been set-up as a 352 in this way:

Hamer
Solly - Morrison - Cort
Wagstaff - Stephens - Hollands - Jackson - Wiggins
Kermorgant - BWP


Compare that to 21/22 which is basically the same team but mirrored, as you say:

MacG
Clare - Lavelle - Purrington
Matthews - Gilbey - Dobson - Fraser - Blackett-Taylor
Stockley - Washington



Hamer -> MacG
Solly -> Purrington
Morrison -> Lavelle
Cort -> Clare
Wagstaff -> Blackett-Taylor
Stephens -> Fraser
Hollands -> Dobson
Jackson -> Gilbey
Wiggins -> Matthews
Kermorgant -> Stockley
BWP -> Washington

These players don't map exactly in terms of ability on the pitch, but you can bet that the roles they are being to asked to perform are nearly identical to their counterpart from 10 years earlier.

I think this is madness. Of the players listed I'd say the strikers are doing the same job and the central CB but that's about it.

1. Hamer was a creative presence himself which MacG can't match.

2. Stephens and Fraser might end up playing similarly if we ever see what Fraser offers but Hollands and Dobson are doing completely different jobs. Hollands was the more attacking of the two midfielders and was expected to provide goals, Dobson's job is to sit in front of the back four and not a great deal else.

3. Wagstaff only started 9 league games so I don't know why you've included him over Green, likely because Green (25 starts) has never tracked back in his life so would make as good a WB as he would a swan, and

4. Wiggins and Matthews couldn't be more different in terms of their roles. Wiggins had a huge creative burden and Matthews is far more focused on defending (in theory).

5. I wouldn't compare Taylor (41 league starts, not Cort, 10) and Clare at all. I don't remember Taylor having the responsibility to overlap the wing back and drive the ball up the pitch. I would have remembered, because it would have been hilarious.

6. As for Gilbey, his role is exclusively to raise Leuth's blood pressure, I can't see anything else being the case, but he's definitely not there to pull in and help the full back overlap while getting down the wing himself.

These comparisons just don't match the reality of what we did that season, even if you could theoretically crowbar these players into that formation there's no way they're functionally being asked to do the same things

1. If your argument here is creativity, MacG has a couple of assists already this season. Is he as good as Hamer? No, but that's not the point I was making.

2. The combination of Stephens and Hollands is covered by the combination of Dobson and Fraser. I honestly put Fraser with Stephens because they are the better passers, although Dobson is no mug either. If it makes you feel more comfortable I can switch them and put Dobson and Stephens together (sit and pass from deep) with Hollands and Fraser (left footers, score a few) together?

3. I picked Wagstaff for no reason in particular - although he obviously was the better player... :-) You make a great joke about Danny Green however I'm sure half of this forum would have said the same thing about Corey Blackett-Taylor before he actually played there, wouldn't they? The fact is, he is contributing occasionally to the defensive side but his primary focus is getting down the wing, exactly as it was for Wagstaff/Green.

4. I'll refer back to point 1 on this one. The only reason Matthews is more defensively focused than Wiggins is because Wiggins was about four times the player. Just because the player is worse doesn't mean they not being asked to do similar things tactically. Look at the goal away at Wimbledon, Matthews has this in his locker but can't produce it often enough.

5. Taylor or Cort getting wide and overlapping the wing back would be funny, yes. The whole idea of overlapping centre backs would've been hilarious ten years ago so I don't disagree. Probably the toughest comparison I had to make.

6. Gilbey and Jackson have more similar roles than you might want to admit - they run themselves into the ground and contribute in both boxes. That's the theory anyway. Despite the song from his playing days, Jackson very rarely ran down the wing. He never had the pace for that. He sat tight, provided presence in the middle of the park, contributed a few goals and let Wiggins supply the width behind him.


None of this is sheer fantasy. I think it's a bit of an uncomfortable truth for some.

I think that we aren't going to agree on this, which is fine, but I think ultimately you're breaking these roles down into such minimal detail that it becomes meaningless. Sure you can swap around the mids in terms of comparisons, but only if you break it down to 'one passes, one scores and has a left foot'. The roles in those central midfields are alien to one another, and you'd have to very much alter what you were doing if you had Stephens or Hollands playing in the spot Dobson does. That midfield relied on winning and driving the ball much further up the pitch, ours relies on reacting to an opposition breaking through the lines between our midfield and defence. Dobson is redundant in a Powell line-up because he can't offer enough of what the other two did. I think Dobson is a good passer, but think about how lost he was in a midfield with Clare when Morgan was meant to be the 10. He hasn't got enough about him to play in a two, he's a recycling shield, and a good one. To be honest, I can't really say what Fraser is there for because whatever it is he hasn't done it yet. I think the Johnnie Jackson thing has also gone into reverse in people's reflections. While I agree he wasn't a winger he still spent a lot of time providing width where it was needed and providing support for Wiggins to overlap by being someone for him to play off. Jackson's greatest skill was drifitng inside unnoticed and arriving late. The idea that he was always posted narrow and never provided or utilised any width is I think a recollection based more on his highlights than the 90 minutes of work he used to put in. He had a very strong partnership with Wiggins that Gilbey isn't seemingly tasked with developing with his wing back. It's not just about quality, if you swapped out Gilbey for a better midfielder I don't think that midfielder would be coached to build in wide positions like Jackson used to.

I think we can both agree that regardless, these players aren't as good as what we used to have. The coaching is a big part too though; was Danny Hollands actually that good? I loved him and was sure he could play at Championship level with no issue, but after he came back from his injury in 2012/13 he couldn't get any form going, looked fairly ordinary in some League One loans and then was playing League Two football in his next permanent move. The injuries did stack up for him but he was a good player made into a brilliant player for us by being the right man coached the right way to do the right job at the right level. Jackson can get in better players but I'm not convinced that just by being better these players will perform the way we need them to; I don't think the modern equivalents of what we had will create anything near the fluid, clearly structured team we saw. Part of that's the way football costs have changed, I never fully realised that including loans and a few prospects we signed 25 players that season, but I just don't know that the plan is there. I'm hopeful that we'll see something different when we kick off next season though, I'd love Jackson to be the one to take us up.

soapboxsam

JJ has a C+ for taking a squad that many said on CL, "The worse in living memory" after the first 13 games when we were in 22nd place up to mid table.

To be in the top 6 next season he needs a B+ and to have more luck with fewer injuries than both Bowyer and Adkins and JJ himself has suffered with. Lavelle probably played his best few games for Cafc and then gets another injury !

The test for Johnnie Jackson is can he build a team/squad around Dobson, CBT, Lavelle, Clare, Aneke, Stockley and Washington plus a few youngsters step up like Deji and Kanu?   If Aneke could play more minutes he is a potential 25 goal striker judging by his goal every 100 minutes strike rate in League 1.

When I played 3-5-2 as a manager; which became 5-3-2 against the top sides ! the wing backs were my fastest and fittest players. Matthews and Purrington aren't and CBT fits the bill as long as he doesn't track back every time a move breaks down or he will have no energy to attack. I alway kept one wing back defending while the other wing back joined the attack so you still had the 3 at the back and everyone just moved across to cover the space vacated by the attacking wing backs. If youth players understood the system why can't professionals ?

With Clare's pace and penchant for running with the ball could he turn into the RWB ?

Can Fraser and JFC step up and are they mobile enough to both play in midfield as a pair ? 

Do we give up on the more mobile but erratic Morgan and Gilbey  ? 

These questions and so many more are for  Johnnie Jackson to answer because if he continues to play the 3-5-2 template then we need players with the right skill set to play in the various positions. 

Backing from Thomas Sandgaard is paramount and it's has to be done early as possible because from memory only Yann came to the party late in our winning League 1 side.

No pressure JJ but you need a B+ and you have my support; hopefully you have Thomas Sandgaard support and Steve Gallen can get the players to improve this erratic team. JJ himself must have a network of contacts in the game at all levels.

Oh_Yoni_Boy

450+ posts late, but no, because...

(a) Take a look who's out there and would come to us. Even if there is a bigger name available that's no guarantee it'd work out and we've binned a club legend for nothing. Anyone who thinks e.g. 'Rooney' or 'Dyche' would even consider looking at us, please seek urgent medical attention.
(b) Jackson by all accounts is a good young coach, he'll make mistakes and learn things on the job - I think particularly around adapting his preferred way of playing to situations. He has a higher ceiling than the likes of Bowyer in my opinion, because he's got the brain power.
(c) If we get recruitment right this summer and he gets enough of a say to build his team, I'd judge more based on that than now - this summer we were burdened with the contracts of backup players like Gunter, Watson triggering his extension, as well as some expensive and poor signings etc.
(d) Under him we've had a great patch where we looked unplayable, an almost indescribably awful one, and a good/mediocre one (now) - I don't think we can conclude that he can't turn us into a promotion team

The short version, I don't rate the risk-reward of getting rid of him; the prospect of a young manager who is a club legend taking us forward isn't worth sacrificing unless we know it's not going to work out - which I don't think we do. Imagine Chrissy Powell MkII with an owner who doesn't gut the team after we went up...

SouthWest_Addicks

Jacko has done the minimum to keep his job for me. Would have taken 12th come end of the season when Jacko took over after 13 games. Personal opinion is that we won’t get a bigger marquee signing in the summer than Scott Fraser. I do feel that if we want to be successful we need to find away to accommodate Fraser skillset. A big summer lay ahead in terms of recruitment and most importantly getting the balance of the squad which suits are playing style.

MuttleyCAFC

Both Fraser and Gilbey had Covid in a bad sense as opposed to brush it off in a day or two sense. Even if they are not starters next season, they are strong squad players but if they have a good pre-season, they could well be starters. That is what we will need. Strength in depth and the form players earn their places.

Cardinal Sin

Appalling final game of the season. Still attempting to play this laughable 3-5-2 formation without the personnel to do so. What message does this send to the younger players (Kanu and Co) when Jackson sticks with his favourites who have no heart and no guts? Three donkeys in defence and Morgan and Gilbey by-passed in midfield. Created very little with no pace upfront. Embarrassed for those who travelled. We have to make a lot of changes to really improve next season and I can't see Sandgaard spending the money or Jackson the balls to do it.

If the nucleus of this side is still here in August, I won't be wasting more money on them.

SELR_addicks

If Gilbey lines up in central midfield with Jackson talking about his 'fantastic engine' in August we are doomed. 

AndyG

Perhaps the reason the out of contract players havent been spoken to yet is that JJ might not be here so why not let the new manager decide who they want to retain ?

Billericaydickie

AndyG said:

Perhaps the reason the out of contract players havent been spoken to yet is that JJ might not be here so why not let the new manager decide who they want to retain ?

I hadn’t thought of that.
I really hope that you are right.

Callumcafc

AndyG said:

Perhaps the reason the out of contract players havent been spoken to yet is that JJ might not be here so why not let the new manager decide who they want to retain ?

Unlikely I reckon. 90% sure we start next season with Jackson. If we were moving on, you would think it would’ve been announced a few weeks ago after we put enough points between us and the bottom four.

SoundAsa£

Callumcafc said:k

AndyG said:

Perhaps the reason the out of contract players havent been spoken to yet is that JJ might not be here so why not let the new manager decide who they want to retain ?

Unlikely I reckon. 90% sure we start next season with Jackson. If we were moving on, you would think it would’ve been announced a few weeks ago after we put enough points between us and the bottom four.

Really……that’s a bit of a speculative thought?

Callumcafc

SoundAsa£ said:

Callumcafc said:k

AndyG said:

Perhaps the reason the out of contract players havent been spoken to yet is that JJ might not be here so why not let the new manager decide who they want to retain ?

Unlikely I reckon. 90% sure we start next season with Jackson. If we were moving on, you would think it would’ve been announced a few weeks ago after we put enough points between us and the bottom four.

Really……that’s a bit of a speculative thought?

Surely it’s more speculative to suggest that he’s on his way out?

J BLOCK

Way way out of his depth. If he stays next season, he’ll be gone before Xmas

Todds_right_hook

Cardinal Sin said:

Appalling final game of the season. Still attempting to play this laughable 3-5-2 formation without the personnel to do so. What message does this send to the younger players (Kanu and Co) when Jackson sticks with his favourites who have no heart and no guts? Three donkeys in defence and Morgan and Gilbey by-passed in midfield. Created very little with no pace upfront. Embarrassed for those who travelled. We have to make a lot of changes to really improve next season and I can't see Sandgaard spending the money or Jackson the balls to do it.

If the nucleus of this side is still here in August, I won't be wasting more money on them.

What formation would you play out of interest?

AndyG

Todds_right_hook said:

Cardinal Sin said:

Appalling final game of the season. Still attempting to play this laughable 3-5-2 formation without the personnel to do so. What message does this send to the younger players (Kanu and Co) when Jackson sticks with his favourites who have no heart and no guts? Three donkeys in defence and Morgan and Gilbey by-passed in midfield. Created very little with no pace upfront. Embarrassed for those who travelled. We have to make a lot of changes to really improve next season and I can't see Sandgaard spending the money or Jackson the balls to do it.

If the nucleus of this side is still here in August, I won't be wasting more money on them.

What formation would you play out of interest?

Isnt more a case of good managers play a formation to suit the players they have at their disposal ? 

Rothko

Couldn’t find this thread last Saturday

Todds_right_hook

AndyG said:

Todds_right_hook said:

Cardinal Sin said:

Appalling final game of the season. Still attempting to play this laughable 3-5-2 formation without the personnel to do so. What message does this send to the younger players (Kanu and Co) when Jackson sticks with his favourites who have no heart and no guts? Three donkeys in defence and Morgan and Gilbey by-passed in midfield. Created very little with no pace upfront. Embarrassed for those who travelled. We have to make a lot of changes to really improve next season and I can't see Sandgaard spending the money or Jackson the balls to do it.

If the nucleus of this side is still here in August, I won't be wasting more money on them.

What formation would you play out of interest?

Isnt more a case of good managers play a formation to suit the players they have at their disposal ? 

I don't think any formation would suit the players that Jackson currently has it his disposal.  That's why I think it's unfair to criticise it.

when did Jackson complete his coaching badges and what is taught to young coaches? Adkins got slaughtered for 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 and Jackson for 3-5-2. These formations are played by the majority of teams at our level. It's not 1999 anymore and the game has moved on from 4-4-2

cafcnick1992

Definitely keep Jackson. Give him a summer and judge him on next season.

NapaAddick

So which Premier League manager should be get?

Dazzler21

I'm more on th give the Jacko a go side, but today showed how poor his team can be.

SouthWest_Addicks

Hope the best for Jacko, but we must hit the ground early. If we are chasing the pack after 10 games don’t see him lasting the season 

Cardinal Sin

Todds_right_hook said:

Cardinal Sin said:

Appalling final game of the season. Still attempting to play this laughable 3-5-2 formation without the personnel to do so. What message does this send to the younger players (Kanu and Co) when Jackson sticks with his favourites who have no heart and no guts? Three donkeys in defence and Morgan and Gilbey by-passed in midfield. Created very little with no pace upfront. Embarrassed for those who travelled. We have to make a lot of changes to really improve next season and I can't see Sandgaard spending the money or Jackson the balls to do it.

If the nucleus of this side is still here in August, I won't be wasting more money on them.

What formation would you play out of interest?

4-4-2

DDOUBLEE

Give him a summer for what? More sicknotes like Aneke or such premier league youth stars like John and Castillo? Get him gone ASAP

SELR_addicks

I think a lot of 'wait and see' people are hoping for a huge window this summer. 

Problem is the travesty of a January window that we already went through with Jackson in charge. 

Callumcafc

Found this interesting reading, comparing sentiments with that of Powell and our overall squad as we headed into the summer of 2011.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/41086/where-do-we-go-from-here/p1

Gribbo

Rothko said:

Couldn’t find this thread last Saturday

Pointless comment. Glaringly obvious that people aren't going to criticise after a win, it still doesn't mean the sentiment isn't there the whole time.

DDOUBLEE

Gribbo said:

Rothko said:

Couldn’t find this thread last Saturday

Pointless comment. Glaringly obvious that people aren't going to criticise after a win, it still doesn't mean the sentiment isn't there the whole time.

All he does is post really shit sarcasm anyway

shirty5

Rothko said:

Couldn’t find this thread last Saturday

Google worked for me 

Callumcafc

Callumcafc said:

Found this interesting reading, comparing sentiments with that of Powell and our overall squad as we headed into the summer of 2011.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/41086/where-do-we-go-from-here/p1

Also comparing to this thread from 2017 when we were at our lowest under KR… the following season we were top six and got promoted the year after.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/77391/posh-vs-charlton-april-2017-post-match-views/p1


Things can and do change quickly in football, especially in League One.

cafcsinger

Squad is pony, give him a chance to bring in his own players ffs