Dan Burke was the clubs Fans Liasion Officer, a role the club must have to be within the EFL rules. They may get around this by having the Fans Advisor (Lucy) cover that from the voluntary role
I doubt that. Would think Fan Liaison Officer would be a proper paid role, or else it would be less than a box ticking exercise.
So they have made someone redundant when they will then replace them with someone else?
It’ll be interesting to see what happens.
You can only make someone redundant if their job no longer exits. Their work can be incorporated into a new job description to appoint someone. Anyone being made redundant should be considered for other available jobs.
Dan Burke was the clubs Fans Liasion Officer, a role the club must have to be within the EFL rules. They may get around this by having the Fans Advisor (Lucy) cover that from the voluntary role
I doubt that. Would think Fan Liaison Officer would be a proper paid role, or else it would be less than a box ticking exercise.
So they have made someone redundant when they will then replace them with someone else?
It’ll be interesting to see what happens.
You can only make someone redundant if their job no longer exits. Their work can be incorporated into a new job description to appoint someone. Anyone being made redundant should be considered for other available jobs.
Dan Burke was the clubs Fans Liasion Officer, a role the club must have to be within the EFL rules. They may get around this by having the Fans Advisor (Lucy) cover that from the voluntary role
I doubt that. Would think Fan Liaison Officer would be a proper paid role, or else it would be less than a box ticking exercise.
So they have made someone redundant when they will then replace them with someone else?
It’ll be interesting to see what happens.
You can only make someone redundant if their job no longer exits. Their work can be incorporated into a new job description to appoint someone. Anyone being made redundant should be considered for other available jobs.
It may not have been redundancy, they may have just ben let go.
People with less than two years employment, which includes Dan Burke, Brian Jokat and all the new sales staff, have very little recourse if dismissed.
The employer doesn't have to give a reason or pay any redundancy, assuming it is a standard employment contract.
Only if they have been discriminated against under one of the protected characteristics or trade union membership could they take a case to an employment tribunal.
I’ve got no idea whether this is right, but wouldn’t senior management positions (ie HR) have to be accredited accordingly by the appropriate governing body as such - does Mrs Sandgaard have this qualification??
As I say, I have no idea whether this is right but surely there’s legal safeguards in place to stop company owners doing things like this?
Indeed. The Chartered institute of Personnel and Development, of which I was a Fellow before retiring. The qualification is equivalent to a Masters Degree.
Just sounds like he is trying to do things on the cheap and on the hoof. Wonder how the club will cope at future Employment Tribunals.
I believe @PragueAddick previously posted an interesting insight into Raelynn's attributes having met her if you care to read it. Sorry but being a technophobe (only got my first ever smartphone this year) I don't know how to create the link, but it's probably one of his more recent posts if that helps. (3 posts on June 10th and 11th well worth the read)
Well, I need to qualify that post, quite a lot. Firstly, it was only a Zoom meeting. Secondly, I wouldnt retract anything I wrote about that encounter, but it was a certain situation. She took charge of some issues, and sorted them ahhhrt admirably. However those things were a mess because of a great deal of initial naivety from TS and co. about the global band of Addicks. Small in total numbers but big on tribal issues. She definitely has some qualities, but I wont be the only one with corporate experience to have encountered people who are great at getting things done, but less great at enabling others to get things done. This may or may not apply to her, I have no way of knowing. Generally I’m not a great fan of a business owner bringing in family members to senior positions. It can work out but there can be no surprise if it creates suspicion and mistrust.
Sorry for anyone losing their job, particularly if they're a fan and have invested their heart into it. We don't know enough about what's happened here, but a lot of folk imagining workers have 1970s style rights in this country. We don't.
If someone has been there less than 2 years, they effectively don't have any employment rights bar not being discriminated against. They'll get whatever their notice period is paid up. Even if they have been there more than 2 years, it just means they get paid redundancy if the post is redundant and unless there's something in your contract, it will be statutory redundancy which is a maximum of £571 per qualifying week, so a little over a grand if you've done 2 years.
If the post isn't redundant, say you have a role required by EFL regulations, and you've been selected for redundancy and your job is going to be advertised, that's possibly an unfair dismissal. Unfortunately, the recourse is to go through an employment tribunal, which can take years and are stacked in the employer's favour, and even when they do find in a worker's favour, the compensation isn't great. Even if you're backed by a union, most people haven't got 18 months to sit around and fight it. In my view these are all deliberate features of the tribunal system but that's probably getting into HoC territory.
I’ve got no idea whether this is right, but wouldn’t senior management positions (ie HR) have to be accredited accordingly by the appropriate governing body as such - does Mrs Sandgaard have this qualification??
As I say, I have no idea whether this is right but surely there’s legal safeguards in place to stop company owners doing things like this?
Indeed. The Chartered institute of Personnel and Development, of which I was a Fellow before retiring. The qualification is equivalent to a Masters Degree.
Just sounds like he is trying to do things on the cheap and on the hoof. Wonder how the club will cope at future Employment Tribunals.
HR managers normally were expected to be CIPD qualified but not sure it was a legal requirement as with doctors or lawyers?
And is my CIPD diploma equivalent to a masters? Never knew that but if true I'm smarter than I thought : - 0
No it's not a legal requirement. Like you say expected at senior level but not essential. Unlike lawyers, there is also no requirement to keep up with the CIPD membership on a yearly basis either.
CIPD Level 7 is equivalent to a Masters, Level 5 is an Undergraduate Degree.
I did my Diploma early 90s so before the link to the national framework so where would it sit now @cafcfan1990 ?
Highly likely it was a Masters level you did. The Level 5 is a relatively new entry for CIPD, it used to just essentially be Level 3 or Level 7. So if the course was pretty easy, you'll have the equivalent of Level 3 (A-Level), but if it actually took some work you'll have the equivalent of the Masters
Sorry for anyone losing their job, particularly if they're a fan and have invested their heart into it. We don't know enough about what's happened here, but a lot of folk imagining workers have 1970s style rights in this country. We don't.
If someone has been there less than 2 years, they effectively don't have any employment rights bar not being discriminated against. They'll get whatever their notice period is paid up. Even if they have been there more than 2 years, it just means they get paid redundancy if the post is redundant and unless there's something in your contract, it will be statutory redundancy which is a maximum of £571 per qualifying week, so a little over a grand if you've done 2 years.
If the post isn't redundant, say you have a role required by EFL regulations, and you've been selected for redundancy and your job is going to be advertised, that's possibly an unfair dismissal. Unfortunately, the recourse is to go through an employment tribunal, which can take years and are stacked in the employer's favour, and even when they do find in a worker's favour, the compensation isn't great. Even if you're backed by a union, most people haven't got 18 months to sit around and fight it. In my view these are all deliberate features of the tribunal system but that's probably getting into HoC territory.
Agree with all however there are still more benefits for those employees who have been here for 2+ years. They get consultation rather than just easily made redundant.
In this case, without knowing too many details I don't think we've made any redundancies and all employees who have left have simply been dismissed with a week/months pay and have no choice but to accept the decision.
I’ve got no idea whether this is right, but wouldn’t senior management positions (ie HR) have to be accredited accordingly by the appropriate governing body as such - does Mrs Sandgaard have this qualification??
As I say, I have no idea whether this is right but surely there’s legal safeguards in place to stop company owners doing things like this?
Indeed. The Chartered institute of Personnel and Development, of which I was a Fellow before retiring. The qualification is equivalent to a Masters Degree.
Just sounds like he is trying to do things on the cheap and on the hoof. Wonder how the club will cope at future Employment Tribunals.
HR managers normally were expected to be CIPD qualified but not sure it was a legal requirement as with doctors or lawyers?
And is my CIPD diploma equivalent to a masters? Never knew that but if true I'm smarter than I thought : - 0
No it's not a legal requirement. Like you say expected at senior level but not essential. Unlike lawyers, there is also no requirement to keep up with the CIPD membership on a yearly basis either.
CIPD Level 7 is equivalent to a Masters, Level 5 is an Undergraduate Degree.
I did my Diploma early 90s so before the link to the national framework so where would it sit now @cafcfan1990 ?
Highly likely it was a Masters level you did. The Level 5 is a relatively new entry for CIPD, it used to just essentially be Level 3 or Level 7. So if the course was pretty easy, you'll have the equivalent of Level 3 (A-Level), but if it actually took some work you'll have the equivalent of the Masters
It was a two year course, Post-Graduate Diploma so higher than L3 certainly.
I did have to work, it wasn't that hard but that was more because I'd been doing the job (T&D rather than personnel) for a while. Taught on it too after I qualified.
feel for anyone losing they’re job, particularly in the current climate, however lots of jumping to conclusions with zero facts as to why the various sackings/layoffs are happening.
I believe @PragueAddick previously posted an interesting insight into Raelynn's attributes having met her if you care to read it. Sorry but being a technophobe (only got my first ever smartphone this year) I don't know how to create the link, but it's probably one of his more recent posts if that helps. (3 posts on June 10th and 11th well worth the read)
Well, I need to qualify that post, quite a lot. Firstly, it was only a Zoom meeting. Secondly, I wouldnt retract anything I wrote about that encounter, but it was a certain situation. She took charge of some issues, and sorted them ahhhrt admirably. However those things were a mess because of a great deal of initial naivety from TS and co. about the global band of Addicks. Small in total numbers but big on tribal issues. She definitely has some qualities, but I wont be the only one with corporate experience to have encountered people who are great at getting things done, but less great at enabling others to get things done. This may or may not apply to her, I have no way of knowing. Generally I’m not a great fan of a business owner bringing in family members to senior positions. It can work out but there can be no surprise if it creates suspicion and mistrust.
I didn't think my post really said anything that needed qualifying as it was more a sign post for those wishing to read about your experience, which would have provided the context had followers chosen to read about it
I offered no opinion and you are in a more informed position than many contributors on here, so thanks for sharing and summarizing it so succinctly above.
I’ve got no idea whether this is right, but wouldn’t senior management positions (ie HR) have to be accredited accordingly by the appropriate governing body as such - does Mrs Sandgaard have this qualification??
As I say, I have no idea whether this is right but surely there’s legal safeguards in place to stop company owners doing things like this?
Indeed. The Chartered institute of Personnel and Development, of which I was a Fellow before retiring. The qualification is equivalent to a Masters Degree.
Just sounds like he is trying to do things on the cheap and on the hoof. Wonder how the club will cope at future Employment Tribunals.
HR managers normally were expected to be CIPD qualified but not sure it was a legal requirement as with doctors or lawyers?
And is my CIPD diploma equivalent to a masters? Never knew that but if true I'm smarter than I thought : - 0
No it's not a legal requirement. Like you say expected at senior level but not essential. Unlike lawyers, there is also no requirement to keep up with the CIPD membership on a yearly basis either.
CIPD Level 7 is equivalent to a Masters, Level 5 is an Undergraduate Degree.
I did my Diploma early 90s so before the link to the national framework so where would it sit now @cafcfan1990 ?
Highly likely it was a Masters level you did. The Level 5 is a relatively new entry for CIPD, it used to just essentially be Level 3 or Level 7. So if the course was pretty easy, you'll have the equivalent of Level 3 (A-Level), but if it actually took some work you'll have the equivalent of the Masters
It was a two year course, Post-Graduate Diploma so higher than L3 certainly.
I did have to work, it wasn't that hard but that was more because I'd been doing the job (T&D rather than personnel) for a while. Taught on it too after I qualified.
Yeah, definitely what would now be Level 7. Fair play, don't do yourself an injustice, I did Level 5 two years ago and that took some work. Although I did it as an apprenticeships so had that to do alongside the learning/assignments.
This adds to my growing uneasiness over how the club is being run.
Jokat and the sales team may or may not have been up to the job but if so why were they given the job and were their targets realistic in the first place?
Losing one senior manager can be misfortune, losing Roddy, Mumford (who resigned) and now Jokat (ignoring the football managers for the time being) looks like more than just carelessness.
It reeks of unrealistic expectations of how much commercial income a league 1 club can generate in a depressed economy and how many season tickets we can realistically sell.
Bleeding staff, especially those who know the business and the "customer" base, is never good.
Neither are knee jerk reactions which don't include owners reflecting on their own part in the failure.
As we know, we had the most experienced football secretary in the game, and let him go. I started to worry at that point.
I have a friend whose son works back office down at the Valley. I contacted him to see if things were ok and to ask if his son still has a job, which he has. From what I’ve been told is that TS is going through a back office restructure which sounds like it’s a reduction in headcount - two or three doing a particular role rather than four or five. This might explain why a number of the newer staff have been let go - didn’t fit in with the plan? Evidently Thomas has spoken to all staff and those that can be found another role will be re-deployed. RM’s background is in organisational development - @bolloxbolder@bobmunro can better elaborate on the scope of OD than I - but it may explain why she’s involved in this restructure?
I’ve got no idea whether this is right, but wouldn’t senior management positions (ie HR) have to be accredited accordingly by the appropriate governing body as such - does Mrs Sandgaard have this qualification??
As I say, I have no idea whether this is right but surely there’s legal safeguards in place to stop company owners doing things like this?
Indeed. The Chartered institute of Personnel and Development, of which I was a Fellow before retiring. The qualification is equivalent to a Masters Degree.
Just sounds like he is trying to do things on the cheap and on the hoof. Wonder how the club will cope at future Employment Tribunals.
HR managers normally were expected to be CIPD qualified but not sure it was a legal requirement as with doctors or lawyers?
And is my CIPD diploma equivalent to a masters? Never knew that but if true I'm smarter than I thought : - 0
No it's not a legal requirement. Like you say expected at senior level but not essential. Unlike lawyers, there is also no requirement to keep up with the CIPD membership on a yearly basis either.
CIPD Level 7 is equivalent to a Masters, Level 5 is an Undergraduate Degree.
I did my Diploma early 90s so before the link to the national framework so where would it sit now @cafcfan1990 ?
Highly likely it was a Masters level you did. The Level 5 is a relatively new entry for CIPD, it used to just essentially be Level 3 or Level 7. So if the course was pretty easy, you'll have the equivalent of Level 3 (A-Level), but if it actually took some work you'll have the equivalent of the Masters
It was a two year course, Post-Graduate Diploma so higher than L3 certainly.
I did have to work, it wasn't that hard but that was more because I'd been doing the job (T&D rather than personnel) for a while. Taught on it too after I qualified.
Yeah, definitely what would now be Level 7. Fair play, don't do yourself an injustice, I did Level 5 two years ago and that took some work. Although I did it as an apprenticeships so had that to do alongside the learning/assignments.
Cheers and well done.
Fancy doing a job share of the Charlton HR role? : - )
I’ve got no idea whether this is right, but wouldn’t senior management positions (ie HR) have to be accredited accordingly by the appropriate governing body as such - does Mrs Sandgaard have this qualification??
As I say, I have no idea whether this is right but surely there’s legal safeguards in place to stop company owners doing things like this?
Indeed. The Chartered institute of Personnel and Development, of which I was a Fellow before retiring. The qualification is equivalent to a Masters Degree.
Just sounds like he is trying to do things on the cheap and on the hoof. Wonder how the club will cope at future Employment Tribunals.
HR managers normally were expected to be CIPD qualified but not sure it was a legal requirement as with doctors or lawyers?
And is my CIPD diploma equivalent to a masters? Never knew that but if true I'm smarter than I thought : - 0
No it's not a legal requirement. Like you say expected at senior level but not essential. Unlike lawyers, there is also no requirement to keep up with the CIPD membership on a yearly basis either.
CIPD Level 7 is equivalent to a Masters, Level 5 is an Undergraduate Degree.
I did my Diploma early 90s so before the link to the national framework so where would it sit now @cafcfan1990 ?
Highly likely it was a Masters level you did. The Level 5 is a relatively new entry for CIPD, it used to just essentially be Level 3 or Level 7. So if the course was pretty easy, you'll have the equivalent of Level 3 (A-Level), but if it actually took some work you'll have the equivalent of the Masters
It was a two year course, Post-Graduate Diploma so higher than L3 certainly.
I did have to work, it wasn't that hard but that was more because I'd been doing the job (T&D rather than personnel) for a while. Taught on it too after I qualified.
Yeah, definitely what would now be Level 7. Fair play, don't do yourself an injustice, I did Level 5 two years ago and that took some work. Although I did it as an apprenticeships so had that to do alongside the learning/assignments.
Cheers and well done.
Fancy doing a job share of the Charlton HR role? : - )
Tempting offer. Just not sure I could afford to quit my full-time job and then get sacked in a few weeks time by Raelynn...
I have a friend whose son works back office down at the Valley. I contacted him to see if things were ok and to ask if his son still has a job, which he has. From what I’ve been told is that TS is going through a back office restructure which sounds like it’s a reduction in headcount - two or three doing a particular role rather than four or five. This might explain why a number of the newer staff have been let go - didn’t fit in with the plan? Evidently Thomas has spoken to all staff and those that can be found another role will be re-deployed. RM’s background is in organisational development - @bolloxbolder@bobmunro can better elaborate on the scope of OD than I - but it may explain why she’s involved in this restructure?
Org Dev looks at the capabilities and skills needed by the organisation to carry out their roles and develop new skills/training/learning and development across the org. It can involve many courses/training/learning
There is another OD which is Org Design, which is mainly focused on spans and layers, how the organisation is structured to deliver efficiency and aligned to operational/commercial goals. They cross over, as each influences the other to an extent. All very much within the HR realm though so I am sure Bollox and Bob - when he returns - which he will ;-) can further enlighten from how it works having seen it first hand in day to day HR roles.
🕵🏼 Isn't MS the eyes and ears of TS? Perhaps R is carrying out the dirty work to protect his position? There again, just read a spy book - might be over egging this one. 🕵🏽♀️
Comments
The employer doesn't have to give a reason or pay any redundancy, assuming it is a standard employment contract.
Only if they have been discriminated against under one of the protected characteristics or trade union membership could they take a case to an employment tribunal.
We don't know enough about what's happened here, but a lot of folk imagining workers have 1970s style rights in this country. We don't.
If someone has been there less than 2 years, they effectively don't have any employment rights bar not being discriminated against. They'll get whatever their notice period is paid up. Even if they have been there more than 2 years, it just means they get paid redundancy if the post is redundant and unless there's something in your contract, it will be statutory redundancy which is a maximum of £571 per qualifying week, so a little over a grand if you've done 2 years.
If the post isn't redundant, say you have a role required by EFL regulations, and you've been selected for redundancy and your job is going to be advertised, that's possibly an unfair dismissal. Unfortunately, the recourse is to go through an employment tribunal, which can take years and are stacked in the employer's favour, and even when they do find in a worker's favour, the compensation isn't great. Even if you're backed by a union, most people haven't got 18 months to sit around and fight it. In my view these are all deliberate features of the tribunal system but that's probably getting into HoC territory.
In this case, without knowing too many details I don't think we've made any redundancies and all employees who have left have simply been dismissed with a week/months pay and have no choice but to accept the decision.
I did have to work, it wasn't that hard but that was more because I'd been doing the job (T&D rather than personnel) for a while. Taught on it too after I qualified.
That might be it or could be more, I don't know.
I offered no opinion and you are in a more informed position than many contributors on here, so thanks for sharing and summarizing it so succinctly above.
Fancy doing a job share of the Charlton HR role? : - )
I can believe that things needed shaking up and improvements made but that was what Jokat was brought in to do. Now he's gone.
He also went to Bexley Grammar
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/davidjuenogtfcbusinessclub
There is another OD which is Org Design, which is mainly focused on spans and layers, how the organisation is structured to deliver efficiency and aligned to operational/commercial goals. They cross over, as each influences the other to an extent. All very much within the HR realm though so I am sure Bollox and Bob - when he returns - which he will ;-) can further enlighten from how it works having seen it first hand in day to day HR roles.